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#2767081 - 03/25/16 08:47 AM Pentatonic question
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I am one of those guitar players who has been guilty of not learning my scales and hoping that my solos miraculously fall into place. I have since decided to learn them and I started with the Minor pentatonic scale. So far, I ave learned it in 4 out of the 5 positions on the neck.

My question is, what chord patterns can I play it over top of? For example, will it work on a song that has a basic A, D, and E pattern? So basically, what chord progressions will it fit with?

Thank-you


Edited by Music Fusion (03/25/16 08:48 AM)

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#2767099 - 03/25/16 10:04 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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The minor pentatonic will play over the I-IV-V progression perfectly. Realize that the scale will sound very "bluesy" and will have a minor tonality.
If you want a more "Major" sound, play the Major Pentatonic. This is easy. The major and minor pentatonic are the same scale, except the major pentonic starts on the 2nd note of the minor. So, in the Key of A Major, the root of the min. Pent is A and the root of the major pent. is C.

In root position A is located at 6/5 and C is located at 6/8. Start the maj. pent on 6/8 with your 4th finger and continue up the min. pent. as usual.

Use C Major Pentatonic to play in C Major not A.


Edited by Fred_C (03/25/16 10:31 AM)
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#2767131 - 03/25/16 11:44 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The minor pentatonic will play over the I-IV-V progression perfectly. Realize that the scale will sound very "bluesy" and will have a minor tonality.
If you want a more "Major" sound, play the Major Pentatonic. This is easy. The major and minor pentatonic are the same scale, except the major pentatonic starts on the 2nd note of the minor.


Example in application: when jamming with an old friend one time over a I IV V in the key of A like that, he played lines drawing on the Bluesy, moody minor Pentatonic, while my lines were all grounded in the sunnier, more Country/Country-Blues sounding Pentatonic Major. This made for an interesting contrast and made it all the more clear that there were two different people trading leads. This wasn't a conscious premeditated decision, it was just by happenstance- but it sure worked.
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#2767133 - 03/25/16 11:47 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Fred_C Offline
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Caev,

An excellent "comparison and contrast".
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#2767179 - 03/25/16 03:15 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I am one of those guitar players who has been guilty of not learning my scales and hoping that my solos miraculously fall into place. I have since decided to learn them and I started with the Minor pentatonic scale. So far, I ave learned it in 4 out of the 5 positions on the neck.

My question is, what chord patterns can I play it over top of? For example, will it work on a song that has a basic A, D, and E pattern? So basically, what chord progressions will it fit with?

Thank-you


You can play the minor pentatonic scale over almost any chord progression, if it does not fit, try the major pentatonic which starts 4 frets down from the minor.
The whole point is to play it against anything and experiment until you find the right mode (Major minor etc)

You need experience, trying things out on your own along with a little theory thrown in.

Also learn the whole scale it is related to, the minor pentatonic is related to the relative minor scale, deleting 2 notes. Same with the major pentatonic, it is related to the major scale (do,re,mi,fa,sol,la,ti,do) deleting 2 notes.

penĚtaĚtonĚic
adjectiveMusic
adjective: pentatonic

relating to, based on, or denoting a scale of five notes, especially one without semitones equivalent to an ordinary major scale with the fourth and seventh omitted.
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#2767202 - 03/25/16 04:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks for all the tips and advice. That has sure answered a lot about what i was wondering about. Bare with me, because I have always played by ear and referring to 5th, 3rd fourth and all that stuff, is somewhat chinese to me.

This is a link to the pentatonic scale positions that I have memorized.

http://www.shredmentor.com/images/fretboard/5-positions-a-minor-pentatonic.png

While referring to it, I am wondering if you could tell me a little more about what i would need to change to make it into a major pentatonic scale.

Thanks so much!!!! I tried to research this stuff, but sometimes there is no replacement for good old fashioned Q/A. I appreciate your time and expertise.

And on a related note- when do people play a dorian scale?


Edited by Music Fusion (03/25/16 04:30 PM)

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#2767245 - 03/25/16 07:12 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
desertbluesman Offline
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The a minor pentatonic scale is the same as a C Major pentatonic scale. The difference is you would play the same a minor scale which would become a C Major pentatonic scale in a country style tune in the key of C.

If you put first finger on the 6th string (bass string) on the fifth fret to begin an a minor pentatonic scale. You could move your fingers down 4 frets putting your 1st finger on the second fret 6th string and your 4th finger on the fifth fret on string 6, that same box but moved four frets towards the nut becomes the A Major pentatonic.
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#2767248 - 03/25/16 07:21 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
desertbluesman Offline
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The major pentatonic scale has a different "flavor" than the minor pentatonic. It is easier to put the minor pentatonic scale against a chord progression in the key of A because any minor pentatonic note fits against any chord in a standard 1,4,5 or other progressions even if the chords are major, or minor chords, or any mix of the two.

My guitar teacher the late Emily Remler gave me this instruction in one of her lessons; "freedom is in the minors". Meaning you are free to play or land on any note, or resolve on any note and it fits......
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#2767264 - 03/25/16 09:10 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG2YKWsBPn0&list=RDwI7jaqMDB6k <---try your major pentatonic over this progression, then try it again using your minor pentatonic, then you can switch back and forth if you want to using the 4 fret drop that DBM mentioned (using the same pattern for major just go back up 4 frets and use it for minor! Keep all of your 5 positions within a 4 fret span for now...switch to A Dorian on this one if you want to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Z-aSQnUho <---try your minor pentatonic over this progression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSA5ffftwdE&index=2&list=RDp_Z-aSQnUho <---or maybe this one for your minor...and try your Dorian, Dorian is a good rock mode...

Whenever you are playing country or rock and roll and using major chords, use a major pentatonic...

Whenever you are playing a minor tune or blues/jazz with lots of 7ths and 9ths, use a minor pentatonic...

In some songs you can use them both (as in the first backing track above). There are lots of backing tracks on YouTube to play along with in many different genres. Just google on Blues Backing Tracks, Jazz Backing Tracks, Country Backing Tracks, etc. This will get you playing in time while practicing with a band...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRlMy6xmvxw&list=RDDRlMy6xmvxw#t=52 <---try this one with your A Dorian or your A minor Pentatonic...

There are lots of pentatonic scale lessons on YouTube that are fun to hop around with that will give you some cool ideas. Congrats on learning the Pentatonic scales as they will help you improvise and play in any key. cool


Edited by Larryz (03/25/16 10:07 PM)
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#2767267 - 03/25/16 09:35 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
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For the I IV V translation: 1 is always your root tone. If you are in the key of A, A is the 1. Now count up and place the note under each number starting with the 1;

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A B C D E F G

so a 1 4 5 would be A D E

if you are in the key of G, then G is the 1;

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
G A B C D E F

so a 1 4 5 would be G C D.

using roman numerals it would be I IV V.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck and have fun with it Music Fusion! cool


Edited by Larryz (03/25/16 09:48 PM)
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#2767295 - 03/26/16 05:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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This may have been mentioned already, but for the pentatonic or any other scale, there`s a relative major and minor-that is why Fred and Caevan mentioned the Pentatonic scale in C and A. C minor has a relative major, which is A. There`s a little mistake late in this video but he corrects it, so it may be helpful:

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#2767380 - 03/26/16 11:55 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks. All of your advice has been very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to explain and to include links. I really appreciate it. I have read them all, but I plan to circle back to this after Easter and actually do the excersizes.

Thanks again. I obviously picked the right place to ask these questions.

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#2767401 - 03/26/16 01:10 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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Mus. Fus.,

I'm certain that I can speak for all the forum members who responded and say, "You're Welcome"! And thank you for your kind appreciation.

Hang out with us. There are some very knowledgeable musicians on this forum.


Edited by Fred_C (03/26/16 01:12 PM)
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#2767409 - 03/26/16 01:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Mus. Fus.,

I'm certain that I can speak for all the forum members who responded and say, "You're Welcome"! And thank you for your kind appreciation.

Hang out with us. There are some very knowledgeable musicians on this forum.


Yep +1
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#2767413 - 03/26/16 01:53 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Mus. Fus.,

I'm certain that I can speak for all the forum members who responded and say, "You're Welcome"! And thank you for your kind appreciation.


Troof.
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#2767419 - 03/26/16 02:15 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Fred_C Offline
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Gents,

We do good work. Don't we?
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#2767426 - 03/26/16 02:38 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,
We do good work. Don't we?


You're all people I would choose to spend time with in person, if we all were in the same physical space. Thanks, friends
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#2767474 - 03/26/16 06:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4360
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,

We do good work. Don't we?


Yep, and the price is right.......
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If it sounds good, it is good !!
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Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

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#2767512 - 03/26/16 11:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,
We do good work. Don't we?


You're all people I would choose to spend time with in person, if we all were in the same physical space. Thanks, friends


+1,000! twothumbs
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#2767590 - 03/27/16 08:56 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
bbqbob Offline
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Registered: 01/10/06
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Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The minor pentatonic will play over the I-IV-V progression perfectly. Realize that the scale will sound very "bluesy" and will have a minor tonality.
If you want a more "Major" sound, play the Major Pentatonic. This is easy. The major and minor pentatonic are the same scale, except the major pentatonic starts on the 2nd note of the minor.


Example in application: when jamming with an old friend one time over a I IV V in the key of A like that, he played lines drawing on the Bluesy, moody minor Pentatonic, while my lines were all grounded in the sunnier, more Country/Country-Blues sounding Pentatonic Major. This made for an interesting contrast and made it all the more clear that there were two different people trading leads. This wasn't a conscious premeditated decision, it was just by happenstance- but it sure worked.

One of the first things I learned on guitar was the minor pentatonic "box" and as a novice this seemed like magic to me, it seemed to me that I could not make a mistake. The problem is I quickly found it boring. I then learned a major pentatonic box which I started using. The next thing I learned about was the relative minor theory and I then started utilizing both scales within a solo. As a for instance, if playing a 12 bar blues in G, I start playing in the Gmaj scale and slide up when it seems right briefly to the Em scale and back again. I found it almost always works and makes things sound more interesting.
The question I have is is there a any general rules when it is more appropriate to use which scale, major or minor? The one thing I have not really done much is combine the major and minor in the same key(Gmaj scale with Gm scale for instance)together in the same solo. I don't know if there are general theoretical guidelines for this.

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#2767631 - 03/27/16 12:16 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: bbqbob]
Fred_C Offline
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Over the past couple of years I have been using a technique called "Chord Tone Soloing" in my Blues solos. The technique focuses on Targeting chord tones using chromatic and intervallic approach plus scalar ideas to create the line. The end result is a sound similar to a horn line. It tends to sound much more melodic and less predictable than a strictly scalar approach.
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#2767652 - 03/27/16 01:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fred, +1 I'm trying to work on chord tones in my scale work these days!

@ BBQ, My basic general rule of thumb is play the minor scales when the song calls for it and play the major scales when the song calls for it (pentatonic or diatonic). Just to prove it to yourself play a major scale and immediately following it, strum the Aminor chord, then play the major scale and immediately following it strum the Amajor chord. Which one works the best?

There are songs that use both the major and minor chord in the same key or A. A good example is Runaway by Del Shannon. Starts with Am "as I walk along, etc." then the song shifts to Amaj "I'm a walking in the rain."

Another example are songs like in Sleep Walk changing from the Fmaj to the Fminor chord, you can follow the chord changes with your scales. There are many songs that do this like Since I Fell for you going from an Amaj to an Aminor (I think Santo and Johnny might have got the idea from this song). You can change the major scale to follow the same chord and the minor scale if you are following the chords.

The reason for the Gmajor to Eminor at any time is the relative minor 6th note of the G scale is Em, and it works either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU-XLNs4TCY <---here's a song to play with. The song is in F#minor "they made up their minds, and they started packing." Then shifts to Amajor for the chorus "anyone can see the road they walk on is paved in gold." F# is the 6th note of the A scale. So you can use the 1st position of the pentatonic to play the verse in F#minor and when the song shifts to Amajor, you stay right there playing the exact same scale (5th position of the Amajor pentatonic scale). The only thing that changes is your way of thinking. You think minor and it is minor, you think major and it is major. Some claim not to think when playing scales. This is an example of thinking LOL! You can play majors and minors in the same scale, but follow the song otherwise you'll find yourself out of alignment with the rest of the band...hope this is helpful. Have fun with it! cool


Edited by Larryz (03/27/16 01:39 PM)
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#2767689 - 03/27/16 06:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Scott Fraser]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4360
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,
We do good work. Don't we?


You're all people I would choose to spend time with in person, if we all were in the same physical space. Thanks, friends


Yep
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If it sounds good, it is good !!
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#2767769 - 03/28/16 04:27 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Eric Iverson Offline
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I do remember one time I told a guitarist that a song was in A, so he immediately went to the 5th position pentatonic we all know and love, and I had to tell him, "this song has a really MAJOR feel, so please play those same licks three frets down" which gave me the C#s I wanted to hear, LOL.

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#2767999 - 03/28/16 03:05 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
bbqbob Offline
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Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 565
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Larryz
@ Fred, +1 I'm trying to work on chord tones in my scale work these days!

@ BBQ, My basic general rule of thumb is play the minor scales when the song calls for it and play the major scales when the song calls for it (pentatonic or diatonic). Just to prove it to yourself play a major scale and immediately following it, strum the Aminor chord, then play the major scale and immediately following it strum the Amajor chord. Which one works the best?

There are songs that use both the major and minor chord in the same key or A. A good example is Runaway by Del Shannon. Starts with Am "as I walk along, etc." then the song shifts to Amaj "I'm a walking in the rain."

Another example are songs like in Sleep Walk changing from the Fmaj to the Fminor chord, you can follow the chord changes with your scales. There are many songs that do this like Since I Fell for you going from an Amaj to an Aminor (I think Santo and Johnny might have got the idea from this song). You can change the major scale to follow the same chord and the minor scale if you are following the chords.

The reason for the Gmajor to Eminor at any time is the relative minor 6th note of the G scale is Em, and it works either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU-XLNs4TCY <---here's a song to play with. The song is in F#minor "they made up their minds, and they started packing." Then shifts to Amajor for the chorus "anyone can see the road they walk on is paved in gold." F# is the 6th note of the A scale. So you can use the 1st position of the pentatonic to play the verse in F#minor and when the song shifts to Amajor, you stay right there playing the exact same scale (5th position of the Amajor pentatonic scale). The only thing that changes is your way of thinking. You think minor and it is minor, you think major and it is major. Some claim not to think when playing scales. This is an example of thinking LOL! You can play majors and minors in the same scale, but follow the song otherwise you'll find yourself out of alignment with the rest of the band...hope this is helpful. Have fun with it! cool

Thanks for the information! There's so much to gnaw on when it comes to utilizing pentatonic scales. They give you a starting point which is pretty easy to deal with but if you want to create something memorable, there is a lot to explore. What's funny to me is sometimes I hear and recognize that a great guitarist is utilizing a pentatonic scale in a riff or solo. What mystifies me is why his/her utilization sounds so much better than mine!

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#2768044 - 03/28/16 04:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: bbqbob]
CEB Offline
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Get the one right, everything else can be a passing tone.
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#2768094 - 03/28/16 09:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: bbqbob]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: bbqbob
What's funny to me is sometimes I hear and recognize that a great guitarist is utilizing a pentatonic scale in a riff or solo. What mystifies me is why his/her utilization sounds so much better than mine!


I have the same problem BBQ! I never can figure out why they sound so much better than me, playing the same dad gum notes LOL! crazy
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#2768132 - 03/29/16 02:38 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Well it`s not just choosing what to play but when to play it. Eric Johnson, Joe Satriani and many other very capable players will break out a pentatonic run-but not where or how one would expect it.

Some time ago I mentioned the three ways to approach a pentatonic scale-from low to high on the same frets which most everyone knows, moving up the strings toward the bridge, and going `backwards` towards the nut.
Those three patterns alone open up possibilities on the fretboard.

Er...now that I think about it, that discussion may have been about the basic major scale. But the same idea applies.


Edited by skipclone 1 (03/29/16 07:04 AM)
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#2768233 - 03/29/16 09:42 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Er...now that I think about it, that discussion may have been about the basic major scale. But the same idea applies.


+1 Skip and don't forget to Skip strings now and then LOL! cool
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#2768482 - 03/30/16 05:22 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Er...now that I think about it, that discussion may have been about the basic major scale. But the same idea applies.


+1 Skip and don't forget to Skip strings now and then LOL! cool


grin

I was thinking recently, that I`ve been called Skip for a long time. At this point it sounds kind of...analog, ya know?
Maybe I should change my name to Delete.
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#2768520 - 03/30/16 08:34 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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No No No Skipclone 1, don't Delete! I shorten up the contacts names all the time (like Photon, Jimi, Pinky Jim, etc. I hope it didn't bug him as we haven't heard from him in so long!). You can just call me Lar if you want to LOL! (I think Skip is a cool name btw!). cool
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#2768663 - 03/30/16 08:06 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks. I am back. I have had a chance to practice the pentatonic Am scale, and I also took your advice and moved it down to the second fret on the 6th string, and I did notice a big difference in the overall mood of the soloing.

Here's where I am now:

I am doing pretty good in playing all 5 shapes of the minor pentatonic scale. I can play them in all five positions up and down, as well as moving across.

I am not very good at moving that same shape across the neck while starting on the second fret on the 6th string. I am just not used to it yet.

So, I think I will spend the next week or so trying to get better at moving through the shapes of the Am pentatonic while starting at the second fret of the 6th string.

After that, I would like to know more about the dorian scale and why and when you'd use that,. But not now because I find that if I try to absorb too much at once, I end up forgetting.

Do my next steps make sense? As mentioned, i play entirely by ear and am principally a songwriter, and I have a hard time identifying with the theory of music and musical terms. So, instructions such as "move to the 2nd fret of the 6th string" pretty much works for me ;-)

Thanks again to all.


Edited by Music Fusion (03/30/16 08:07 PM)

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#2768667 - 03/30/16 08:24 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Loc: Ontario
wow. I watched the tutorial on relative minors and I think I actually understand how to go to the relative minor. I also now understand what people mean when they use the roman numerals.

Thanks again.

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#2768668 - 03/30/16 08:36 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
CEB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Thanks for all the tips and advice. That has sure answered a lot about what i was wondering about. Bare with me, because I have always played by ear and referring to 5th, 3rd fourth and all that stuff, is somewhat chinese to me.


That is your problem. You need to learn your intervals in all signatures otherwise the scales are of limited use. You have to have somewhat of a handle on the math if you want to learn how to superimpose scales or even apply them in more basic ways. Not sure what a good source is. All my theory came from piano study. Mark Levin's Jazz book was good for me but I already had 10 years of classical studies in. You can't skip the underlining fundementals. Maybe the guitar guys know a good text. This doesn't replace your ear. It allows you to understand it and suppliment it more easily with richer melodic and harmonic content. Someday down the road you can google 'McCoy Tyner superimposed pentatonics'. First learn your basic intervals.


Edited by CEB (03/30/16 08:37 PM)
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#2768758 - 03/31/16 08:10 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: CEB]
Music Fusion Offline
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I took guitar lessons when I was a kid and it was a bit of a disaster. For some reason, back then, and now to some extent, my brain finds it hard to make a connection between sounds that I hear, and writing them done scientifically in the form of sheet music. I have a lot of respect and admiration for people who can, and who have studied that. For me , it is something of a mental block. But , some of this discussion is making sense to me- so maybe there is still hope that i can begin to think of music on more structured terms. I've always resisted learning it in that way because as a songwriter, i always felt that it was good to not know the rules, so you can break them easily, leading hopefully, to more interesting songs. But as I get older and wiser, I am starting to appreciate the value of knowing the theory. So please bare with me.

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#2768779 - 03/31/16 09:06 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Winston Psmith Offline
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The most fun and approachable book I know of on this subject - I also love his music.

Musician's Guide to Reading & Writng Music.



Edited by Winston Psmith (03/31/16 09:06 AM)
Edit Reason: sp.
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#2768783 - 03/31/16 09:19 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
CEB Offline
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At the end if the day you learn theory so you can internalize it and forget it. There are different ways to think about the same things. Some ways are easier in different songs.

Somebody was talking about Dorian minor. Often I find it is better NOT to think modally. Like in a simple song like Moon Dance where you might want to alternate between Dorian and natural minor in a solo. It maybe easier to think of natural minor with accidental sharped sixths thrown in from time to time. Instead of THINKING of modes just know you are jamming in A minor and you are going to throw in the occasional F#.

You need to know the basic intervals of the major scale and how the math works else memorizing scale positions it just the same thing as memorizing guitar licks. Not a bad thing just less useful.

It is whatever works easiest mentally. The eventual goal is to not have to think but play what your mind hears. Theory helps us know what we are hearing.


Edited by CEB (03/31/16 04:15 PM)
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#2768902 - 03/31/16 03:11 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thank-you. I just placed on order for the book. Says it should be in by April 27th- probably sooner.

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#2768909 - 03/31/16 03:24 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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@CEB

+1. You need to learn theory and technique. But when you have thoroughly assimilated the information it will translate into MAKING MUSIC!!!

As I've observed so many times in the past, the more theory and technique I learn, the better I play.
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#2768943 - 03/31/16 06:09 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

I am doing pretty good in playing all 5 shapes of the minor pentatonic scale. I can play them in all five positions up and down, as well as moving across.

I am not very good at moving that same shape across the neck while starting on the second fret on the 6th string. I am just not used to it yet.

So, I think I will spend the next week or so trying to get better at moving through the shapes of the Am pentatonic while starting at the second fret of the 6th string.

Do my next steps make sense? As mentioned, i play entirely by ear and am principally a songwriter, and I have a hard time identifying with the theory of music and musical terms. So, instructions such as "move to the 2nd fret of the 6th string" pretty much works for me ;-)

Thanks again to all.


I'm going to play Devils Advocate and let you know that you are doing the right thing! As a disclaimer I'm not disagreeing with the advice by the others on our forum LOL!

Each of us attacks the learning of this wonderful instrument in a different way. No method is wrong to include playing by ear IMHO. I know of a Jazz guitar genius player/instructor that will tell you to forget all scales, modes, intervals, etc., and learn to copy his lines and adapt all of them "under your fingers." The proof is in the pudding as his students are all over YouTube and you can google on them. He is one of the great jazz players of all time. I on the other hand, keep going in my direction even though I know I could play jazz much better if I just follow his method. His name is Robert Conti and you can judge for yourself...

My answer to your question is to understand that when you play position 1 in the Am scale with the root tone on the 6th (and 1st string), on the 5th fret A, and drop it down to the same scale at the 2nd fret, F# on the 6th string (and 1st string), and you are having trouble converting the same minor scale to the major scale, try starting and ending on the root tone (6th string 5th fret A or the 1st string on the 5th fret). I will make the following suggestion:

When you are playing the A minor pentatonic minor scale at the 5th fret, 6th string, think of it as a 1st finger start and the root tone is on the 6th string, if you do the exact same scale at the 2nd fret, 6th string, 1st finger start, you will be doing nothing more than an F# minor pentatonic scale. So, play the same exact scale but, instead of starting with the first finger on the F# second fret 6th string, start with the "little finger start" on the 6th string 5th fret (root tone) and think "boogie woogie". This will start you on the major pentatonic scale. Play with the backing tracks I have suggested or play along with any song in your CD collection in the key of A major. You will hear what you are looking for! If you can play the patterns up and down the fretboard as you stated...keep your charts in front of you as you noodle along! Hope this is helpful!

There is nothing wrong with studying theory till the cows come home and reading the suggested material. There is nothing wrong with playing by ear either IMHO. You will eventually hear the same intervals and can study them. The 1st one you will want to add is the flat 5 blue note LOL! The beauty of the guitar in standard tuning is it automatically transposes all chords, scales and intervals for you. Don't worry so much, you are on the right track so have fun with it! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/01/16 07:36 AM)
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#2769002 - 03/31/16 11:39 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
No No No Skipclone 1, don't Delete! I shorten up the contacts names all the time (like Photon, Jimi, Pinky Jim, etc. I hope it didn't bug him as we haven't heard from him in so long!). You can just call me Lar if you want to LOL! (I think Skip is a cool name btw!). cool


Thanks Larryz!
I guess I`ll skip with Stickclone.........


I knew I shouldn`t have had that last beer yesterday grin
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#2769253 - 04/01/16 08:36 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks/Larryz

Thanks for the continued advice. i read each one and take it all seriously. So thanks again!!!

Here is a sample of my work. It is a song I wrote as a Led Zeppelin type of blues tribute. Obviously, it was not me playing lead ;-) http://www.musicfusion.us/crawlzep.mp3

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#2769267 - 04/01/16 10:41 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Keep up the good work Music Fusion! Sounds very cool to me! cool
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#2769321 - 04/02/16 08:13 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Larryz makes a very strong point, in the sense of "Just play the damned thing!"

I studied Music Theory to expand my understanding of what I could do with Music, not so I can sit down and review a bunch of rules and formulae, every time I sit down to play. I don't now if I'd ever get around to making any music, in that case.

Knowing where all the notes are on the neck, freed me from having to hunt down notes when I wanted to play, just as learning about Keys and Scales freed me from having to wonder what notes would go well together, or clash horribly. In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. Just one old guy's experience . . .
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#2769373 - 04/02/16 11:12 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
Fred_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
Larryz makes a very strong point, in the sense of "Just play the damned thing!"

I studied Music Theory to expand my understanding of what I could do with Music, not so I can sit down and review a bunch of rules and formulae, every time I sit down to play. I don't now if I'd ever get around to making any music, in that case.

Knowing where all the notes are on the neck, freed me from having to hunt down notes when I wanted to play, just as learning about Keys and Scales freed me from having to wonder what notes would go well together, or clash horribly. In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. Just one old guy's experience . . .


+1. Much agreed. That's the main concept of "Chord Tone Soloing". Life is easier when you know where the "targets" are and how to "approach" them.
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#2769390 - 04/02/16 12:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Music Fusion Offline
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I think I am on the right track and am getting some great encouragement and information from you folks. I have many friends who are excellent piano players, but take away their sheet music and they are completely lost. I think that's an extreme that I don't want to go to. I like the way Winston put it " In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. "

That would be my goal, to understand what I am doing better.

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#2769545 - 04/03/16 09:31 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I have many friends who are excellent piano players, but take away their sheet music and they are completel


I'm not surprised. My mother forced me to take piano lessons from the age of 8 to 14. I went to a private school and they only taught classical piano. No Jazz. No Pop. And certainly no Rock and Roll. I played piece after piece. No theory. The only technique they taught was "Correct Fingering".

I HATED EVERY MINUTE OF IT!

At 14, I picked up the guitar and never looked back.

In the interest of fairness, I'm fairly certain that the musicians on the Keyboard Forum probably had a learning experiece far different from mine. I'm sure that they probably have excellent improvisational skills and are highly competent musicians.


AFTERTHOUGHT: piano did teach me how to read music.


Edited by Fred_C (04/03/16 09:45 AM)
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#2769554 - 04/03/16 10:07 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I think I am on the right track and am getting some great encouragement and information from you folks. I have many friends who are excellent piano players, but take away their sheet music and they are completely lost. I think that's an extreme that I don't want to go to. I like the way Winston put it " In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. "

That would be my goal, to understand what I am doing better.


Reminds me of something I posted in this forum a couple of times WAY back.

My ex had a friend( nice person regardless) who said SHE was taking guitar lessons. Well, at the time, I not only had my truty Epiphone FT-145, but a buddy of mine was over a couple of days earlier and left his old Gibson "Workman" at my house. I suggested to my wife's friend that I pull them out and we jam a bit.

She too, like your piano playing buddies, claimed she couldn't play without her sheet music!

While I'll admit to an envy of anyone who CAN read music, I get dismayed at finding people who are CHAINED to it.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (04/03/16 10:08 AM)
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#2771034 - 04/08/16 04:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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It's great if you can do BOTH... since there is no logical reason why one precludes the other.
Part of the problem is that music education, at least back in my junior high and high school days, didn't teach learning to play by ear; in a way, that's understandable, because they had a bunch of kids in the band and there wasn't time for us to improvise solos... we had to read the sheet music.
And when I started playing rock guitar, it was expected that we'd learn the songs off the records. And everybody would learn the blues scale in A at the fifth fret, and with that, we could jam - no need to learn to read.
Luckily, I had learned to read music playing trumpet in school bands, and so learned to read on guitar, too. No one told me it was difficult, so I just sat down and did it. Not on the level of studio pros, I assure you.... LOL.
I admit, though, that you CAN get lazy if you are handed sheet music for every song, or lyrics with chord symbols above. I got used to that in church situations. Now there's a band at a church I sometimes attend, but they have no sheet music, and to join them I'd have to learn all the tunes by ear. Not that I couldn't; it's not Juilliard; but it'd take a fair amount of effort. Oddly enough, it'd be much easier to just do improvised solos over them, because they're not modulating through a dozen key centers like some old jazz standards.

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#2879290 - 09/14/17 04:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks.

It has been a long time since I have been here, but I assure you that I have been busily putting into practice the lessons you folks taught me about the use of the minor pentatonic scale and how I can use that same pattern as a major scale by moving the shape 4 frets down towards the nut. Thanks so much for all that advice. It has worked wonders and I never would have been able to piece it together on my own.

So now I have another question. What is the difference between the minor/major pentatonic and a dorian scale. More specifically, when would I use a dorian scale and how is it different?

Thanks again!!!!!

Music Fusion

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#2879292 - 09/14/17 04:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
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Google "Circle of Fifths"

Well worth learning

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#2879293 - 09/14/17 04:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
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Google "Circle of Fifths"

Well worth learning

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#2879304 - 09/14/17 05:40 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Hi folks.

It has been a long time since I have been here, but I assure you that I have been busily putting into practice the lessons you folks taught me about the use of the minor pentatonic scale and how I can use that same pattern as a major scale by moving the shape 4 frets down towards the nut. Thanks so much for all that advice. It has worked wonders and I never would have been able to piece it together on my own.

So now I have another question. What is the difference between the minor/major pentatonic and a dorian scale. More specifically, when would I use a dorian scale and how is it different?

Thanks again!!!!!

Music Fusion


https://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-512-DorianMode.php
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#2879344 - 09/14/17 09:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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Welcome back Music Fusion...so glad to hear you're sticking with it! Here's a lesson from Marty on the whole enchilada of shifting from a Pentatonic to a Dorian mode and using them both to jam with, along with the chords that go with them...have fun with it! I'm putting this one in my favorites to come back to myself LOL! You can find Marty lessons all over YouTube. He can explain it much better than I can LOL! I'm sure there are tons of others. Just search on the lessons for anything you can think of!



thu
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#2879406 - 09/15/17 07:37 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Loc: Ontario
Thanks to all for the references and the video link. I may be jumping the gun a bit on the dorian thing. I've bookmarked the Marty video and will come back to it once I get by some other issues that I am trying to figure out. Also, I watched 2 videos on the circle of 5ths and it makes sense to me to a point. Theoretically, it makes sense but bridging that knowledge to my playing, is not yet happening. But I'm sure it is one of those things where the light will suddenly come on one day.

So stepping back a bit:

I now know my minor pentatonic shapes and spent many hours soloing to jam tracks in Am.

I also now know that moving the pentatonic shapes 4 frets back toward the nut, gives those same shapes a major feel and results in a more "happy" sound when soloing as opposed to bluesy.

What I don't know is this:

How do I match the above knowledge, to keys that are being played? In other words, if someone is playing in the key of Am, it's pretty clear that the minor pentatonic shapes that I learned will sound great.

But what if the song is in the key of G Major? Or C major? or Cm etc.

How do I know how to apply the patterns that I learned of the minor and major pentatonic scales?

Said another way, I'm fine if every song was played in Am, but knowing that's that not true, how to apply the shapes I learned to other keys?

Thanks for your patience. I am getting a lot out of the advice here and appreciate your time and expertise!!!!

Thank-you









Edited by Music Fusion (09/15/17 07:39 AM)

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#2879421 - 09/15/17 08:36 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Start by remembering the root tone for the key you want to play in. Find that note on the 6th and 1st strings. That is the key you want to play in so start with that note on the 6th string and play the 5 patterns up and 5 patterns down the fret board in the key of A starting at the 5th fret. The patterns never change no matter which key you start with. The octaves pattern will automatically fall into place for you. Now, just move the root tone to any note or key you wish to play in for example G on the third fret 6th string or B on the 7th fret or C on the 8th. Repeat the 5 patterns up and down the fret board. Shift from major to minor with the 4 fret drop and the patterns still stay the same.

When starting on the 6th (root tone) string use the first finger to start with for the minor and use the little finger to start with for the major. Think blues on the minor scale and think and play the boogie woogie with the major scale... cool
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#2879424 - 09/15/17 08:53 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
A String Administrator Offline
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First, understand that the note you start on is the root note of that scale. So, starting on the 5th fret and playing the minor scale progression will give you the A minor scale. Starting on the third fret and playing the minor progression will give you the G minor scale etc. etc.

Next, there is a thing called "Modes". To super simplify, when you start a scale (do, re, mi, fa, so, etc.) on a note other than the root, you get a different sound. Major, minor, dorian etc. are all modes of the same scales.

In your case, you've discovered that you can get the major scale but dropping down 4 frets.

Here is something you can try to get your brain used to modes: Play the Aminor scale, on the fifth fret. Hit the open A string and play some stuff. Now, hit the C Power chord on the third fret, A string. Continue to use the same minor scale on the fifth. Becazuse you are starting with a different note, it will suddenly have a major sound. Try switching back and forth. You'll get it.

There is more info about modes in the write up I did, stickied to the top of the Guitar Forum lists.
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#2879428 - 09/15/17 09:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
A String Administrator Offline
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Modes can be a bit like looking at the "Wine glass/Two faces" optical illusion. It's all in the perception.

Once you've played the A minor scale on the fifth fret and then used the same notes to play the C Major scale, try starting on other notes.

Ionian (I)
Dorian (II)
Phrygian (III)
Lydian (IV)
Mixolydian (V)
Aeolian (VI)
Locrian (VII)
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#2879430 - 09/15/17 09:11 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
A String Administrator Offline
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Sorry, one addition to that. When getting your starting note, use the C on the 3rd fret, A string as your starting note when figuring out each mode.

So....just playing the A minor scale on the 5th fret for ALL of these:
-Start on C gives you Ionian (Major) scale.
-Start on the second note, the D, you get the Dorian mode/scale in the key of D.
-Start on the 3rd note, the E, you get the Phrygian in the key of E.
-Start on the 4th note, the F, and you get the Lydian in the key of F.
etc. etc. etc.
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#2879434 - 09/15/17 09:20 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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Good info Astring. Another thing I do is align the pentatonic 5 patterns with the major and minor modes. I skip the Phrygian and Locrian modes as they will be there should I ever find a need for them LOL! I start in this order Aeolian (minor), Ionian (major), Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian and then repeat up or going down as the order never changes. You can then shift in and out of the pentatonic major and minor scales with the major and minor scales in all 5 positions in any key... cool

ps. there is a lot of good info on your Theory Thread in the forum list that can be referred to as well, that covers a lot of this info! Thanks! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/15/17 09:24 AM)
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#2879454 - 09/15/17 10:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
A String Administrator Offline
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#2879461 - 09/15/17 11:11 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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thu
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#2879468 - 09/15/17 11:53 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks again. For the moment, i'm going to not comment on the dorian and modes stuff because, although I think I'm getting it, I may not be and may end up confusing myself. But I will have questions about that later.

The new posts above were extremely helpful. But I have a follow up question:

I have learned the pentatonic minor shapes from the A (fifth position on the 6th string) up towards to bridge of the guitar. So therefore, I can play all the shapes from the fifth fret to the 15th fret, which consists of 5 different shapes. , but I did not realize there are shapes to learn in the opposite direction ( from the 5th position back to to the nut of the guitar.

What are those shapes? I've been working from a chart that shows the minor pentatonic scale from the fifth fret upwards to the 15th fret, but does not show any shapes from the 5th fret back to the nut.

Thank-you

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#2879469 - 09/15/17 11:55 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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bTW- that's a great link to learn the dorian and other scale stuff, but I'm not ready for it just yet. But I bookmarked it.

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#2879471 - 09/15/17 11:58 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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I think I answered my own question. This page seems to show all the
shapes

http://www.freeguitarsource.com/Minor_Pentatonic_Scales/F_Minor_Pentatonic_Scale.htm

l

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#2879508 - 09/15/17 02:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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One thing to understand is, shapes are just guidelines to help you find notes, quickly. In the end, all the notes are available, in a few octaves, all over the neck. Get to know where those notes are within the scale you are working on.

A great scale to start with IS the A minor scale on the fifth fret. But from there, learn where those same notes are, outside of that box. It will help you attach to other sections, up and down the neck and that, in turn, will aid in finding new riffs and new combinations of notes for your solos.

It is a tedious task but very rewarding. Take it in bite sized bits. Remember, the box is only a guide to get you started. Break free from that box to really beef up your solos.
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#2879509 - 09/15/17 02:35 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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So..in your case...Play the a minor on the fifth fret and it's octave on the 17th. Then, find ways to connect those two, in between. Use the shapes to help but, in the end, try connecting them in different ways.

Also, remember that moving those same shapes up or down changes the root note so that same set of patterns on the fifth, that gives you and A minor, will give you a D minor if you play it on the 10th (for example).
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#2879579 - 09/15/17 09:33 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks again. I see the value of finding your way around different notes, outside the box and have been naturally finding these things. For example, sometimes when i am in the bottom part of a box, it is easy for me to see the next bottom notes of the next box over, go there, and then ascend up to the root note.

Now the harder question: I looked at the link in which you seem to nicely lay out the different scales Dorian, Ionian etc). But I am getting confused as to what these scales are trying to teach me, as opposed to what these pentatonic patterns are teaching me.

I am seeing fairly clearly how moving the shape and knowing the root notes, determines how the shape matches up to the keys, but this dorian stuff seems really different from that.

I don't know how to really ask the question. I guess it comes down to, I don't yet see how the dorian, ioanin etc stuff is applied in my playing.

Can you take a kick at explaining?

Thank-you

BTW- I am zooming up and down the neck with the shapes from the nut all the way to right up[ the neck and the soloing sounds great!!! Thanks for all the tips.What this forum has done for me, I couldn't get from days of watching youtube videos.


Edited by Music Fusion (09/16/17 05:59 AM)

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#2879656 - 09/16/17 10:12 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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These are all static scales, within the same box. IMO, not a great way to understand modes but more a way to memorize them.

For me, I learned them by playing the A minor scale on the 5th fret. Then, I'd hit the C and play the same scale, trying to return to the C as my root note to get a C major scale. Same A Minor scale, but now, it is magically a C Major scale. Then, I'd move on to the next note in the scale, the D. Each note, in the same scale, when used as a root note, will give you a VERY different feel and sound. Those are the modes with the root note you choose as the mode's root note/name. The mode you are playing is determined by the number from the scale. So first note, second note, third note, etc. etc.

Play around with that. Use power chords so major and minor aren't an issue and then try to return to the new root note, but still playing the A minor scale on the 5th. You'll hear the difference in each mode and how it affects the sound. Some will sound major, some will sound minor, some will have a middle Eastern sound. It's amazing how the same notes can change so much.

Once you understand the differences, you can see that those charts I posted, are just the same notes, in that location, for the different modes. THEN, you can try memorizing those patterns, if you want to. Or, stick to using the A Minor scale, on the appropriate fret, for the mode you are trying to play, until you are more comfortable with it.
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#2879659 - 09/16/17 10:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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If this helps...
-C Major scale is: "C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C"
-D Dorian mode is: "D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D"
-E Phrigian mode is: "E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E"
-F Lydian mode is: "F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F"
-G Mixolydian mode is: "G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G"
etc. etc. etc.

Same notes but starting on a different root note. The sound difference, when played over the root note's chord, is amazing.

**Warning*** Modes can become addictive!
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#2879665 - 09/16/17 10:34 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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Sorry...one more, in case I'm doing a bad job of explaining...

When you play the A minor scale on the 5th, look at the notes. They are: "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A" Same notes as the C Major scale only starting on the 6th note (A being the sixth note in the C Major scale). This make the A minor scale a mode. Specifically, the Aeolian/Minor mode.

We view it (The A minor scale) as it's own thing, separate from the C scale, but it IS a mode, theoretically speaking.

Use the modes to help you find new sounds, but don't THINK of them as modes when you play. Think about them as their own scales in their own keys.
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#2879673 - 09/16/17 11:36 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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Hi Craig

Thanks again. I think i am starting to understand how moving the scales around the neck, results in some very different sounds. For example, I was trying to solo over the progression D G A D D

I could never get all the notes to sound in tune. So, now, applying what I learned here, I decided to use the Am pentatonic scale on the 5th fret. Now, if I understood it correctly, moving the scale 4 frets back from the D position, will give me the "happier" sounding solo. Which is precisely what happened when i soloed there. if i solo the same shape in the D position, it sounds sad. Does that make sense? Both solos work but on the 5th fret, it's happier sound than on the D root.

I still can't say I am understanding the dorian, lydian etc stuff, but I'll keeo reading and re0reading,. Sometimes it doesn't click right away.

by the way, I am also in Ontario- Hamilton.

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#2879676 - 09/16/17 12:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Not too far from me. I used to teach at Lakeshore music, now Long And McQuades, in Burlington.

Keep messing with it. Mainly try playing the A minor scale over different chords, making sure you end on the different root notes of the chord you are playing (So if you are playing a D, make play the A minor scale but try to always come back to the D note).

If you have questions, ask away. Myself or one of the other VERY knowledgeable folks here, are always happy to help out!
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#2879677 - 09/16/17 12:34 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hey Craig:

Thanks!!! Burlington and L & M? I go there a lot. I actually live in Stoney Creek so now I go to the Centennial Parkway location, but I went to Burlington for a long time.

Small world isn't it?

Yes, some very good people here and sometimes it's a lot easier learning by being able to ask questions.

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#2879773 - 09/17/17 06:58 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks:

I really like the fact that I am now familiar with the pentatonic shapes all over the neck and how moving them, results in different sounds.

But because I am getting stuck on understanding dorian, etc, I am wondering if I need to step back. I am wondering if I should first go back and learn basic scales: like what makes up a C scale? etc. That might help me understand this dorian stuff in the future. Does that sound like a good next step and if so, how many basic scales are there to learn?

Thank-you


Edited by Music Fusion (09/17/17 06:59 AM)

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#2879790 - 09/17/17 08:53 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Learning scales is a good step. However, understanding modes is an odd thing. You see...modes are more about a feel from a scale and how using the same notes can bring around other "scales".

As I mentioned, the C major scale is "C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C" (no sharps or flats in this one). This gives you the common "Do, Re, Mi" scale when played over the C major chord and focusing on the C root note when playing solos.

Now, if I play the same scale, starting on the A so I'm playing "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A", you can see I'm still playing the same notes. However, if I play them over an A minor chord and focus on the A as my root note in my solo, I suddenly get an A minor scale (also known as the Aeolian mode).

Why? Simple. The A major scale is:
A, B, C#, D, E, F#, and G#.
If you play those notes over an A major chord, you will get the A major scale. However, as you can see, playing no sharps or flats, ie "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A" we have flattened the C, F and G. When you take a major scale and flatten the third, sixth and seventh notes, you suddenly get a minor sound to your, once happy sounding, scale. But, because the C scale already has those notes, if we apply the C scale to an A minor chord, we get that same, minor sound. This is called a mode of the C scale.

Other modes are revealed by playing the same notes but focusing on different starting points, over different chords. Any time you do that, it's called a Mode of the original scale.

I'm not sure how much you know about scales but, sit down at a piano. Start on a c and go up following these rules:
whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half

Those rules will always make the major scale, no matter what note you start on (or one of the modes). You can see, at the piano, following those rules, you never hit any black keys (#/b), it's all white keys.

Now, start on a G and follow the same rules. You'll see that you almost made it through with all white keys but had to hit one black key. The F#. So, the Major scale in G is: "G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G".

Knowing this, try starting on the 6th note in that scale, the E. So now you are playing:
"E,F#,A,B,C,D,E".
Suddenly, you are playing an E minor scale or, in this case the E Aeolian mode.

Each scale, following those steps, will give you more or less sharps and flats because of the way those black keys on the keyboard are laid out.

One other thing to mention (And a great way to get used to changing sounds in modes), is to play around with a thing called a "Relative Minor". That the Minor scale you get in a Major scale when you start on the sixth note.

Back to the original scale, C. Because starting on the sixth note in the scale give you an A minor mode, A minor is the relative minor to C. Try this exercise:

Hit the C chord twice and then noodle around on the fifth fret using the A minor scale shape. Kind of a major, country feel? Now, hit the A minor chord twice and play in the same area. Suddenly a minor feel. Try switching back and forth between the two chords and the same scale. The difference in sounds is due to the modes of the scale bringing up different sounds with the same notes, due to their relationships to the chords.

Hope this all helps and isn't a bunch of confusing nonsense!
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#2879792 - 09/17/17 08:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Hi folks: . . . how many basic scales are there to learn?

Thank-you


@Music Fusion - First of all, forgive me for truncating your post in this quote, but wanted to get to the main point. Long answer forthcoming . . .

First and foremost, Scales, in and of themselves, are not Music: Scales are about the relationships among Notes within Music.

So, how many Scales? In simplest terms, there are 12 Tones, thus 12 Major and 12 Minor Scales. There are also 7 Modes, sometimes referred to as "Church Modes", which can also begin on any of the 12 Tones, although the Major and Minor Scales are already incorporated into those 7, so let's say there are 5 additional Modes to learn for each Tone, on top of the original 24, and 12x5 = 60, so we're up to 84. We haven't even gotten into Ascending and Descending Minor Scales, or Exotic Scales, yet . . .

Put that way, it sounds daunting, so let's take a step way back. Try playing the "A" Minor Scale, starting with the open 5th String, playing solely on the 5th String, until you reach the Octave on the 12th Fret. If you play the exact same pattern of notes on the open D/4th String, you will be playing a D Minor Scale; same thing works with each of the open strings. Congratulations, you've just learned 5 Minor Scales, by really learning just one.

My point is that it's not just about learning and memorizing all these Scales as if they were separate Mathematical formulas - (which they are, but . . .) - but learning the relationships of the Notes within each Scale, as well as the placement of those notes on the neck. If I may, I think this is what A String was trying to point out, as well. Learn where all the notes are, and you can find, and play, any Scale, anywhere on the neck you like.

IMHO, it will be more useful to you to learn the notes on the neck, and approach Scales as tools for applying that knowledge, rather than cramming your head with Scales that you're not applying to your own playing. You can spend a great deal of time and mental energy memorizing Scales, without learning a single tune, but learning some good Music will help you to see how the Scales are applied in creating Music. Best of luck, and most of all, have fun . . .


Edited by Winston Psmith (09/17/17 08:58 AM)
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#2879793 - 09/17/17 09:00 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
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Sorry, it seems A String and I were responding at the same time . . .
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#2879813 - 09/17/17 11:29 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
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+1 Brother Winston, I started learning to improvise using a book Teach Yourself Improvisation that taught all of the modes using a pattern of dots for 84 guitar necks LOL! (12 chromatic root tones going up or down times 7 modes for a total of 84). It was daunting. So I gave up trying to memorize all of the modes and concentrated on the Aeolian minor and Ionian major scales and learned the relative minor/major relationship. I still wasn't successful in putting the other scale modes into practice.

Then I found another book by another author Teach Yourself Lead Guitar (this was prior to YouTube and books with CD's, DVD's, Tapes, etc.). This book was basically how to use 5 notes instead of 7 and got me going on the Pentatonic blues scales using the relative minor/major concept. When I started to study the relationship between the two books, I put the major and minor scales back into my improvisation study. I then learned that all of the other modes (to include the pentatonic scales) are contained in these two major and minor mode patterns, along with all of the intervals that make up the chords.

So the doors started opening with the keys to unlock the doors...

@ Music Fusion, I would suggest using your Pentatonic scales first and learning the 5 sections up and down the neck in any key starting with your root tone on the 6th and 1st string using major and minor Pentatonic scales. Then instead of learning the Dorian, start with the Aeolian (minor) and Ionian (major) scale modes. Align them with your Pentatonic scales and switch in and out. You will find that you already know all of the modes including the Dorian by just starting that mode on the root tone (6th and 1st strings) and following the same pattern of dots. The dots/charts for the Pentatonic scales can be found by just typing "Pentatonic Scales" (and the others search like "Ionian scale guitar") into your browser...This was just my method. There are as many others as there are guitar players LOL! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/17/17 02:58 PM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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#2879819 - 09/17/17 12:30 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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Nicholas Slonimsky wrote a book in 1947 titled "Thesaurus of Scales & Melodic Patterns", which lays out every possible mathematical combination of notes which can make a scale. There are many hundreds, though not all are musically useful. It was hugely influential on Zappa, Coltrane, Cage, Holdsworth, & others. If you're really interested in scales, as a thought exercise as well as advanced compositional/performance training, this would would be essential reading.
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#2879970 - 09/18/17 09:04 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I am one of those guitar players who has been guilty of not learning my scales and hoping that my solos miraculously fall into place. I have since decided to learn them and I started with the Minor pentatonic scale. So far, I ave learned it in 4 out of the 5 positions on the neck.

My question is, what chord patterns can I play it over top of? For example, will it work on a song that has a basic A, D, and E pattern? So basically, what chord progressions will it fit with?

Thank-you


I have skipped over all replies to bring you this vital news.

You are taking the entirely wrong tack in this.

Western music theory follows the history of musical development.
It does not & has never been the rules for playing music.
To follow only what theory tells you is to forever chase the tails of innovators.

The answer to yer question, therefore, is to play what sounds right to you in the exact context of any particular situation.
Playing a commercial NVille Taylor Swift session will call for something diff from a goth death metal track.

Play the music, not yer idea of what the rule is.

If you want some guidance look at the tonic & extrapolate from there....so the Dorian would be the same scale as the standard major but starting on the 2...so a minor scale with b7.

Music's much more simple than many either try to make it or get caught up in.

Use yer ear & hear what you want to achieve.

THAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS TO IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---------------------

If that seems too simple, review what A String & Winston said.
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#2880071 - 09/18/17 04:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
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Along a similar vein, d. My posts were meant to answer questions that he asked, as well as give him to tools to hear the modes and what they meant so he could use them without the confines of scales.
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#2880166 - 09/19/17 06:34 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String
Along a similar vein, d. My posts were meant to answer questions that he asked, as well as give him to tools to hear the modes and what they meant so he could use them without the confines of scales.


My thought, as well. Scales are to Music what a pile of construction material is to a House.
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#2880174 - 09/19/17 07:10 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
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Hi folks:

Rest assured that I have read every word written here and have taken everyone's advice very seriously and to heart and am very grateful. Just a few things:

I am not really a solo guitar guy. My primary obsession is songwriting and I have written over 200 songs, many of which have been published; one of which has appeared on an American television program. I am not mentioning this to "brag" at all, but just for context as to my focus. In writing these songs,in a way, it was advantageous for me not to know any of the rules. All of my writing has been through feel and stumbling about, But it worked, for me anyway.

Having said that, I've always respected and admired those who truly understand how music works (that would be all of you, from the looks of it). So I am circling back and trying to enhance my knowledge, respect and appreciation of music by learning from those who understand it.

Now..back to the details:

I am quoting a post here and responding to it:

@ Music Fusion, I would suggest using your Pentatonic scales first and learning the 5 sections up and down the neck in any key starting with your root tone on the 6th and 1st string using major and minor Pentatonic scales.

This is what I have been doing, and believe that i am finally there, in that I can play all the pentatonic shapes throughout the entire neck, and have learned how moving the shapes back 4 frets makes the scale sound happy rathe than sad. I am alos doing these shapes ascending and descending.

Then instead of learning the Dorian, start with the Aeolian (minor) and Ionian (major) scale modes. Align them with your Pentatonic scales and switch in and out.

That's where I am stuck despite herculean efforts on this thread by Craig and others to help me. It's just a roadblock I presently have in my mind that i can't seem to break out of. So, if someone can help me know how to do what is suggested above, that would be very helpful. I am trying- trust me- but can't seem to break through

As an aside, here is an example of a song I wrote. http://www.musicfusion.us/crawlzep.mp3

It's in the style of Led Zeppelin and it's a blues song. That's definitely not me playing lead guitar. If it was, i wouldn't be asking all these questions ;-)

Thanks again to all!!!!!!

MF










Edited by Music Fusion (09/19/17 07:10 AM)

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#2880184 - 09/19/17 07:39 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Thanks for listening to my comments Music Fusion...so take that song clip (which is very good by the way!). It's a nice little blues which tells me you want to use a minor scale as the framework for your house building materials. Always good to ask questions and learn to use those materials too BTW. To me, the scales are more like the architectural plans for building the house LOL!

Now, find the key while your music clip is playing by moving up and down the neck with the 1st and 6th string. You'll hear it is in the key of D starting on the 6th (or 1st) string at the 10th fret. Blues and Rock like the minor keys/scales and country likes the majors which gives you the idea for feel. Now play your Pentatonic (minor) scale 1st position beginning with your 1st finger on the 10th fret on the 6th string, using your music clip as your backing track until you feel comfortable. Stay within the 4 fret span. Now play your Aeolian (minor) 1st position scale within the same 4 fret span but you'll have to add one note on the 3rd string 9th fret located just outside the 4 fret span...the Aeolian 1st position contains all of the notes of your Pentatonic 1st position. As you go up or down through each of the 5 Pentatonic positions, you will notice there is the same relationship with the Aeolian scale positions...don't forget that Marty YouTube clip for the chord stuff later down the line. Good Luck with it! cool





Edited by Larryz (09/19/17 08:14 AM)
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#2880242 - 09/19/17 10:51 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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@ MF, Here it is in E Minor using the same exact scales as the D minor described above starting on the 6th string at the 12th fret:




ps. he's adding that extra note in the minor scale (outside the 4 fret span of the pentatonic) by stretching up to it on the 4th string instead of the way I do it by playing it on the 3rd string. He plays it and accents it on the 3rd string later. It works either way...
cool


Edited by Larryz (09/19/17 11:02 AM)
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#2880484 - 09/20/17 03:01 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

..back to the details:

I am quoting a post here and responding to it:

@ Music Fusion, I would suggest using your Pentatonic scales first and learning the 5 sections up and down the neck in any key starting with your root tone on the 6th and 1st string using major and minor Pentatonic scales.

This is what I have been doing, and believe that i am finally there, in that I can play all the pentatonic shapes throughout the entire neck, and have learned how moving the shapes back 4 frets makes the scale sound happy rathe than sad. I am alos doing these shapes ascending and descending.

Then instead of learning the Dorian, start with the Aeolian (minor) and Ionian (major) scale modes. Align them with your Pentatonic scales and switch in and out.

That's where I am stuck despite herculean efforts on this thread by Craig and others to help me. It's just a roadblock I presently have in my mind that i can't seem to break out of. So, if someone can help me know how to do what is suggested above, that would be very helpful. I am trying- trust me- but can't seem to break through

As an aside, here is an example of a song I wrote. http://www.musicfusion.us/crawlzep.mp3

It's in the style of Led Zeppelin and it's a blues song. That's definitely not me playing lead guitar. If it was, i wouldn't be asking all these questions ;-)

Thanks again to all!!!!!!

MF


Thanks for the track link.
You clearly have a grasp of music.

Here's what you should do, I think.

Take yer pick of valid instructional reference materials & keep that as a technical ref.
Then ignore the terms for various scales/modes til you need to learn them.
Instead, start thinking abt all of that in terms of the basic maj scale & also ignore the pitch names & consider them in terms of scale degrees [1-2-3-4-5-6-7-octave].

That will reduce the extraneous info to what the notes sound like & allow you to focus on their sound & the relationships they have to each other regardless of key, scale or anything other than the sound.

If yer going minor, think of the b3; dominant V gets a b7; dim becomes [1 - b3 - b5 - b7] etc.

Then every day take one aspect of music & explore that & nothing else that day.
It further helps to develop yer sense of relative pitch if you sing the notes yer working with.

Trust me that will do more than anything else to speed yer learning curve.

You can always look up the nomenclature when you need to communicate w/ those sort of musicians but knowing the way things sound & how those sounds affect the communication of music will always be more effective than knowing the terminology but not how to manipulate the music.

Otherwise it's like tryna invent recipes w/out knowing what the diff spices taste like in combinations.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2880531 - 09/20/17 06:51 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks to all. I've made some pretty good progress since coming back here, but now I feel i need to take a breather and continue to practice what I know so far.

So far, I can move up and down the neck with the minor pentatonic shapes and started practicing putting in those extra notes mentioned above.

I guess the goal is to solo, and for the most part, what I've learned thus far has enabled me to do that. I know there's more to it, but for now, I am happy that i've gone this far.

I am going to come back to all that has been said on this thread at some point soon in the future. Sometimes, coming back with fresh eyes makes a big difference.

To be honest, i don't think i'm ever going to understand and relate to the technical stuff anywhere as well as you folks do. I continue to run up against a mental block once I approach the technical terms.

Thanks to all. I'm not leaving the thread. Just digesting it over time.

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#2880538 - 09/20/17 10:01 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2033
Loc: PA
@d,

I agree in principle with the information in your post with one exception. That being "dim becomes [1 - b3 - b5 - b7]". Actually, this is the formula for the minor7 flat 5 chord (notated m7-5 or m7b5). It is sometimes referred to as the "half-diminished" chord. The formula for the diminished 7th chord is 1-b3-b5-bb7. Yes, it is a double flat and the bb7 is "enharmonically equivalent" to a natural 6th, but is always notated as a double flat 7.

As long as we're teaching this guy we should teach him correctly.

If you want to respond to my post, please do so in English.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

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#2880587 - 09/21/17 06:32 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I was reading a book just now; more specifically, The Republic by Plato. It's philosophy as I am sure you know.

On page 87, it says:

These harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian and the full toned or bass-Lydian.

Later, it says

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian, they are termed "relaxed", Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones you have left."

Guess I can't get away from this stuff ;-)

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#2880591 - 09/21/17 06:44 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
The latest thing I did was to repeat the lesson found in the video up top. The one that Larry Z posted.

From that video, I was able to start with the Am pentatonic scale, commencing on the E root, and then add additional notes to play the Em scale.

So, my question is this:

With the Em scale I just learned (which includes more notes that the pentatonic) which keys or chord progressions would I play that over, and how do I know? I guess the trick would be to try to understand it without getting caught up in too many technical terms that i am having a hard time putting my mind towards.

The way I would explain it to myself, if I knew the answers would be as follows:

Playing the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, would ordinarily play well over top of the following chord progressions: ________________

Playing the Em scale, which includes the additional notes, would or (would not?) sound good over top of the same chord progressions stated above.

The reason you would play the Em as opposed to the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, is to ______________________


Can anyone take a kick at filling in these blanks. this may be a good way for me to start getting it.

Thank-you

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#2880613 - 09/21/17 07:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6011
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
1
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
@d,

I agree in principle with the information in your post with one exception. That being "dim becomes [1 - b3 - b5 - b7]". Actually, this is the formula for the minor7 flat 5 chord (notated m7-5 or m7b5). It is sometimes referred to as the "half-diminished" chord. The formula for the diminished 7th chord is 1-b3-b5-bb7. Yes, it is a double flat and the bb7 is "enharmonically equivalent" to a natural 6th, but is always notated as a double flat 7.

As long as we're teaching this guy we should teach him correctly.
If you want to respond to my post, please do so in English.


You're absolutely correct, Fred & I apologize for skipping the bb7 .
Thanks for clearing that up !
[Note the absence of slang wink ]

2
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I was reading a book just now; more specifically, The Republic by Plato. It's philosophy as I am sure you know.

On page 87, it says:

These harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian and the full toned or bass-Lydian.

Later, it says

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian, they are termed "relaxed", Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones you have left."

Guess I can't get away from this stuff ;-)



Not sure exactly how Plato fits into the timeline but I would point out that between the time of the ancient Greeks, who originally devised the basis of Western music theory, & the developments of more modern ideas in the Middle-Ages the Church musicians of that later time reversed the ideas of the Greeks.
The Greeks defined their scales using pitch lines (tetrachords) that went down in pitch whereas N Euro clerics drew pitch lines, as we do, going up in pitch.
They also got the names of Greek modes turned around, so what was called Ionic in ancient texts may not be the same as what we call Ionic.
[Chk a good reference book for that exact example----as pointed out I leave all the classical nomenclature aside generally]

I'd point out also that the Greek names for scales were derived from specific music styles used in particular areas, so they derived from the actual music played in areas rather than some intellectualities...which leads me back to what I suggested earlier as far as making yer learning single level & easier instead of multi-level & more difficult.

3
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
The latest thing I did was to repeat the lesson found in the video up top. The one that Larry Z posted.

From that video, I was able to start with the Am pentatonic scale, commencing on the E root, and then add additional notes to play the Em scale.

So, my question is this:

With the Em scale I just learned (which includes more notes that the pentatonic) which keys or chord progressions would I play that over, and how do I know? I guess the trick would be to try to understand it without getting caught up in too many technical terms that i am having a hard time putting my mind towards.

The way I would explain it to myself, if I knew the answers would be as follows:

Playing the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, would ordinarily play well over top of the following chord progressions: ________________

Playing the Em scale, which includes the additional notes, would or (would not?) sound good over top of the same chord progressions stated above.

The reason you would play the Em as opposed to the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, is to ______________________


Can anyone take a kick at filling in these blanks. this may be a good way for me to start getting it.

Thank-you



As I will point out for the final time here, yer musical path is made more difficult when you try to make sense of intellectual ideas that derive from the practical effect of musical sounds without getting the experiential understanding of the sounds themselves.

To make that clear, play , explore & notice the effects on you or yer listeners then consider how that works for what you want to communicate.

To seek suggestions for what to play formulaically will work but not well.
It's not going to fit different styles & will never communicate anything better than tracing someone else's drawing.

You may learn that way but it will take longer for you to achieve understanding or communicative expression.
Succinctly, while it seems easier, it will waste yer time in the long run.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2880673 - 09/21/17 11:56 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I agree with what you're saying for the most part. In my journey, from a songwriting perspective, experimenting and wandering about musically served me well. But for decades my solos sounded like train wrecks- often hitting sour notes and getting lost on where to go next. The formulistic approach involving learning the pentatonic scale has helped me greatly in breaking out of that rut. So I was hoping to take it to the next level where I go beyond the pentatonic and start employing other scale variations, without having to necessarily understand the technical terms. I'm not sure if that is even possible.

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#2880694 - 09/21/17 01:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 635
Loc: Virginia
Although this is primarily a piano question, lots are applicable to the guitar. And an easy read;https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/5807/how-to-know-what-notes-go-together-while-improvising-in-a-specific-song

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#2880695 - 09/21/17 01:30 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 635
Loc: Virginia
Although this is primarily a piano question, lots are applicable to the guitar. And an easy read;

https://music.stackexchange.com/question...cific-song-song




Edited by DocPate (09/21/17 05:31 PM)

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#2880739 - 09/21/17 03:11 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
The latest thing I did was to repeat the lesson found in the video up top. The one that Larry Z posted.

From that video, I was able to start with the Am pentatonic scale, commencing on the E root, and then add additional notes to play the Em scale.

So, my question is this:

With the Em scale I just learned (which includes more notes that the pentatonic) which keys or chord progressions would I play that over, and how do I know? I guess the trick would be to try to understand it without getting caught up in too many technical terms that i am having a hard time putting my mind towards.

The way I would explain it to myself, if I knew the answers would be as follows:

Playing the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, would ordinarily play well over top of the following chord progressions: ________________

Playing the Em scale, which includes the additional notes, would or (would not?) sound good over top of the same chord progressions stated above.

The reason you would play the Em as opposed to the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, is to ______________________


Can anyone take a kick at filling in these blanks. this may be a good way for me to start getting it.

Thank-you



@ MF, don't think of the scale pattern as an A minor scale, unless you have lined up position 1 with the 1st and 6th string root tones on the 5th fret. Don't think of the scale as an E minor scale, unless you have lined up position 1 with the 1st and 6th string root tones on the 12th fret or on the open strings. The same is true for any key (i.e. G on the 3rd fret, B on the 7th fret, C on the 8th, D on the 10th, etc). When do you use the A minor scale (with position 1 lined up on the 1st and 6th strings at the 5th fret)? Answer: When the song is in the key of A minor. When do you use the E minor scale (with position 1 on the 1st and 6th strings)? Answer: when the song is in the key of E minor). Do the exact same thing when playing/aligning up your 5 Pentatonic minor scale positions. The chord progressions used will all be in the same minor keys. Hope this is helpful. cool


Edited by Larryz (09/21/17 03:12 PM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2880851 - 09/22/17 06:03 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks for that info. @Larry- yes that explanation makes sense. I'm not going to think of the first pattern of the pentatonic scale as belonging to any particular root note. It belongs to all root notes and it just depends on where you choose to play it.

I also read the link on the piano thread, which was also helpful. It did prompt a question in my mind: Is the minor pentatonic scale the same thing as the blues scale, or is the blues scale different?

BTW..I'm not lazy and I usually run off and google these things and watch youtube videos but for some reason, the discussion here seems to resonate more, or, sometimes simply confirms my understanding of what I gathered by youtube, google.

So thanks for your continued patience and expertise.

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#2880854 - 09/22/17 06:16 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
This is a good video that shows the difference between blues scale and minor penatonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESIyNhOBk9E

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#2880889 - 09/22/17 08:13 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6011
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I agree with what you're saying for the most part. In my journey, from a songwriting perspective, experimenting and wandering about musically served me well. But for decades my solos sounded like train wrecks- often hitting sour notes and getting lost on where to go next.

There's a lesson there.
You either didn't really listen to what you were playing or perhaps had nothing to say.

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
The formulistic approach involving learning the pentatonic scale has helped me greatly in breaking out of that rut. So I was hoping to take it to the next level where I go beyond the pentatonic and start employing other scale variations, without having to necessarily understand the technical terms. I'm not sure if that is even possible.

I'd say it didn't break you out of a rut as much as make you able to imitate what others did.

If you simply follow a formula it will likely have little to do with the melody of a song or the idea that music may be intended to communicate.

Not everyone has the mindset of an artist or craftsman.
You may be more like a mechanic.
That's not an insult nor a comparison of elites vs mundane but could be worth considering for your long term goals.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2880893 - 09/22/17 08:16 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
That's a great video Music Fusion! Don't forget to book mark it into your favorites list. You can always come back to it and look up more videos by the same teacher/lesson giver. I'm glad you're sticking with it and the person deserving the most thanks, is you!

The chromatic lead in to the scale notes is a very cool part of the video. Also, don't forget to hit the pause button when the chart comes up. You can freeze frame it and practice the notes on the chart. You will notice on the chart those little numbers within each note (i.e. 1 5 b3 b7 4 b5). Those are the intervals that will also make up your chords! The most important one to me is the b5 (flat 5). It is not in the 5 note pentatonic scale. I always add that note. What the lesson teacher referred to as "the Blue Note". It's what makes the 5 note Pentatonic into a 6 note Pentatonic Blues scale.

Play the Pentatonic scale without the chromatic notes and without the blue note until you get the feel and sound of each of the primary notes. Then add them and listen to the new sounds that come up. You will find when playing without the blue note that when you bend the 4th interval up, you will be adding that blue note b5 interval all the time just naturally. You will also find when making that chromatic run up or down from the 5 to the 4, you will be adding that b5 naturally all the time.

When you switch in and out of the Pentatonic and the Minor (Aeolian) you will be skipping that b5 and you will be using a 7 note scale. This gives you two different scales with different feels/notes/sounds in the same position (as in the videos I posted). After you get them both down, start skipping notes and strings and play them by the sounds you want to hear. The scales just provide the framework(s) of notes to choose from. Keep at it and make it yours. Have fun! cool

Ps. playing and practicing with scales will also develop speed and muscle memory as you get them under your fingers...




Edited by Larryz (09/22/17 09:10 AM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881062 - 09/22/17 07:41 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks again guys. My medium term goal it to play with more fluidity, not being chained to patterns and apply the creative side of my writing and be more adventurous. But, baby steps first.

Again, I take all the perspectives here very seriously and find value in all of them.

Thanks again.

Im sure I'll have more to say as I continue on.

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#2881066 - 09/22/17 09:40 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
A breakthrough (maybe)

SO I watched another video in an attempt to understand this dorian, ionina etc thing. I may have it now. How's this:

If you lay out the notes of the C Major scale, the notes and pattern that they form will remain the same. However, depending on what chords are played behind them, will determine if you are in the Ioanina, Dorian etc mode.

For example, the same notes are played all the time but if you are playing a C chord progression in the background, your notes are said to be in the C Ioanina mode. If, on the other hand, the exact same notes are played with a D chord progression in the background, you are said to be in the dorian mode...etc


Yes?

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#2881075 - 09/22/17 10:39 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
Baby Steps MF...the background chords do not determine the modes. You can decide which mode you want to use to play over those background chords. Put on a backing track for country and use the Ionian (major) scale or your Pentatonic major. Put on a Blues backing track and use your Aeolian (minor) scale or your Pentatonic minor. It's best to use a minor scale over a minor chord progression and a major scale over a major chord progression. Sometimes you can use both in the same song...as your Pentatonic minor also works when there are a lot of 7ths and 9ths in a song (don't forget your 4 fret drop concept).

It's good to have the thirst for knowledge. When you learn these 4 scales and apply them up and down the neck, then call up that Dorian training video lesson again as there is always more to discover. The pattern does not change you just shift it. If you want to play in C Dorian, line up the Dorian Mode on the 6th and 1st strings at the 8th fret. Good Luck and Good Hunting! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/22/17 11:03 PM)
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881097 - 09/23/17 05:32 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi Larry. I will keep at it. This is the video that has me confused, because it seems to suggest what i said above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1_6kvCHtQ

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#2881111 - 09/23/17 07:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
Music Fusion, the reason it has elements of what you suggested above is he is explaining how to play the same pattern in the major (Ionian)scale and emphasize the C root, then the D root, and you will find you can use the same framework for the E F G A B as well. Why? All 7 notes are contained in each of the frames/segments of each mode/scale. Each of the 7 mode sections can be found in the Ionian and Aeolian scales and in the order he described. In his "SFS" method, he is going to concentrate the next lesson in the major and/or the relative minor scales. He is a good teacher with what looks like a good program/system and I will refer back to some of his other videos as well, as I am always learning too LOL! I like the way he showed the harmony concept using a single note with several chords...

Understand, that he is introducing you to the whole big picture along with his method of attack and it's going to sound complex at first. He will break it down and as you get more into it, You will discover many new things and all of them will help you play better and add to your ability to improvise. I can describe many things and my method of attack for you too, but it will sound confusing at the beginning stages. My suggestions have already been made. Many of which are in his video. I started out with the 7 modes/scales and had a hard time making them useful in my lead work (he will help you with this). Then I learned the Pentatonic Scales and all sorts of new doors opened for me in the 5 frameworks (similar to the 7 mode frameworks of which I only use 5! I skip the Locrian and the Phrygian modes/scales). When I was getting to sound repetitive using my Pentatonic scales, I went back and started putting the major and minor modes/scales back into my arsenal as I understood the shifting concepts. The shifting is done for each key and can be done over each chord in a chord pattern as well...I'll leave it at that and wish you good luck! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/23/17 06:04 PM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2881275 - 09/24/17 10:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
One thing for sure, I'm not giving up. I think I will see the other lessons that gentleman offers, as ihe seems to be a very clear way of presneting things.Maybe between what I learn through that, and through the advice here, something will clcik.

I am still struggling with what a mode is as compared to a scale and how this dorian, ioanin etc relates to all this. I know everyone has tried to explain it in many different ways, but maybe I'm dense about this stuff. But I will keep at it.

Thanks to all. I'm still trying.

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#2881284 - 09/24/17 10:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
Your nowhere near dense Music Fusion. If you can play the 5 positions (notice I didn't call them scales or modes) of the Pentonic Scales (now I did call them scales) and think of them as modes instead of postions, you'll start to see there is no difference. There is a difference when you pick a starting point at anyone of the 12 chromatic notes/frets on your guitar. I suggest you pick the starting point on the 1st and 6th strings for the key you want to play in. Now play each scale up and down the neck. Across the neck using the frameworks in an approximate 4 or 5 fret span, and along the neck using each string...

So it's just a matter of terms when you start wanting to define things like the 7 scale modes. 1. The Ionian=major, 2. The Dorian=Rock, 3. The Phrygian=Flamenco, 4. The Lydian=Jazz, 5. The Mixolydian=Classical, 6. The Aeolian=Minor, 7. The Locrian=Folk. These are the Greek names and the feel that can be associated with each mode. They are all scales and you can name them as above or change them to whatever you like. Or, like the Pentatonic Scales you can call them position 1, position 2, position 3, etc. So if you like the position 2. Dorain=Rock scale mode in the key of C, start it on the 1st and 6th strings on the 8th fret.

Keep following along with your new found instructor. He also teaches Pentatoncs. I know you will stick with it just by reading what you are posting. Try not to absorb too much too soon and [pick] a starting point...hope this is helpful... cool


Edited by Larryz (09/24/17 11:21 AM)
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881302 - 09/24/17 12:07 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thank-you for the encouragement. To recap what you said:

I know the 5 pentatonic minor shapes and can move them up and down the neck. You've suggested we think of these moveable shapes as modes- which makes sense to me.

I also realize that if I play the first shape on the low E string on fret 5, I am in the Am pentatonic.

If I play that same shape on the 12th fret, I am using the same shape, but I am in D.

So, now I am wondering which of the following is true (if any)

1) If I use the second shape of the pentatonic shapes, I would be in Dorian mode (starting on the 8th fret)

OR

2) If I move the Am pentatonic shape to the 8th fret, I'd be in Dorian mode.

I think it's #1 but I'm not certain.

by the way, my name is Charles.


Edited by Music Fusion (09/24/17 12:09 PM)

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#2881314 - 09/24/17 01:50 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
Charles, forgive me if I don't remember your name as I refer to everyone by their chosen call signs. I might do as you did and shorten Music Fusion to MF. But I'm still glad to meet you and I go by Larry or Larryz or LZ whatever you choose...if you can find a book at your music store on Pentatonics and Scale modes, it will help you follow along with those things the YT teacher is sharing with you and provide reference material. You may also be able to find a local teacher in your area. After all this discussion, you are well on the way to knowing what book, teacher, YT Teachers, DVD's, etc. to continue with your quest. It is a good one and I don't want to lead you off base or confuse you. But, I will share some of my thoughts with you as to my attack on the subject(s).

So here are some things to consider:

1. If you play what you are calling the position 1. Pentatonic A minor on the low E (6th string) and move that exact same shape up to the 12th fret, think of it as playing E minor (not D).

2. If you move the exact same Postion 1. A minor Pentatonic to the 8th fret, think of it as playing in C minor (not the Dorian mode).

3. You can use this Pentatonic framework as your 1st position and your starting position to play in any of the above minor keys or to play over any of those minor chords. This framework of notes will line up with the Aeolian minor scale.

4. There are only 2 modes to worry about in the Pentatonic frameworks major and minor. My suggestion is you do the same with the other scale modes and start with just learning and practicing the major and minor scale modes. For now, think of dividing the fret board with the Pentatonic positions in the same way the major and minor modes divide it. These are interchangeable. Don't try and equate the others (like the Dorian) as you will get to that later down the road.

5. So now for the 4 fret drop confusing part that you can figure out or have said you have already figured out. The 1st position Pentatonic minor that you already know as starting on the low E at the 5th fret for A minor with your index finger, is the 5th Position of the relative Pentatonic major scale which you can start with your pinky finger. The 1st position of the relative major Pentatonic would start on 8th fret as C major (it would be the 2nd position of your minor Pentatonic scale). You shift them depending on whether you're playing in the major or minor.

6. When you get that concept down with the Pentatonic scales, do the same thing with the major and minor scales in the same frameworks.

Then go from there and learn from that YT teacher you have chosen...
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2881317 - 09/24/17 02:23 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks Larry. I just finished Lesson two from that link, and I just read the comemnt you posted. I feel like I'm getting closer to understanding. The good news is that i am able to fairly easily memorize the material and play it. I am forcing myself to do a lesson and then spend the rest of the day parctising it, so that i don't go too fast and forget it all. Interspersed, i am reading this thread. So between both of these sources, it is starting to come together.

By the way, I meant to type E on my previous posted and accidently typed D. Thank-you for pointing out that I cited the wrong root note while being in the 1st minor pentatonic position on the 12th fret.

As I say, I used to aboslutely HATE trying to study this stuff, but the fact that I am now looking forward to fighting my way through this, and the help I am getting here and through the videos, is like turning a major corner for me.

Back at it later tonight or tomorrow.



Edited by Music Fusion (09/24/17 02:23 PM)

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#2881326 - 09/24/17 04:43 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
Admin
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Posts: 12037
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Yup. Larry is right. Best to focus on the starting stuff.

So:
Am scale=

-------------------------------------------5--
----------------------------------5--6--8-----
-------------------------4--5--7--------------
-------------------5--7-----------------------
----------5--7--8-----------------------------
-5--7--8--------------------------------------

Remember that pattern. See how the 5th note on the sixth string is an A? That is the note we can use to tell which scale we are playing. So, play the same pattern but starting on the 3rd fret and it is a G minor scale. Or start it on the 10th fret and it's a D minor scale.

Using a mode, we can also quickly learn the major scales, with the same pattern.

C Major scale:


-------------------------------------------5--7--8--
----------------------------------5--6--8-----------
-------------------------4--5--7--------------------
-------------------5--7-----------------------------
-------3--5--7--8-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------

Same pattern, but we started in a different spot. Now, when played over a C major chord, it will have a major sound.

If you play the same pattern, starting on the A# (A string, 1st fret), and play the same pattern we used for the G minor, we will get the A# major scale.

etc. etc. et al
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#2881327 - 09/24/17 04:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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Basically, two scales for the price of one. Want to change the key, just move that same pattern up or down the neck.
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#2881484 - 09/25/17 11:28 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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@ Astring, Cool stuff!

@ Fusion, I'll bet you will enjoy spending a lot of time on studying this stuff now! Don't forget to take a break from it as it will consume you LOL! I go for months at a time away from this stuff as it is just music theory. But, I always warm up with a few scales and improvisation. In between my music theory week study, I try out the new concepts and ideas over backing tracks. Then I know what really works for me. I do not use the 7 modes, I only use 2 and I equate them with the 2 Pentatonic major and minor. Everything you are searching for is contained in these basics. I can use the other 5 modes at will at anytime I want to...anyway, the main thing is to have fun with it! You may have hated this stuff before, but I'll bet you are going to fall in love it now. Take it easy...Baby steps, get one thing down at a time...good luck with it! thu
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#2881615 - 09/26/17 04:23 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi Craig. Larry and others. Thanks again for the info. Here's where I am:

1. Last night I went through lesson 2b of that online video guy. In that lesson, he shows how to move a particular A based shape across the entire neck. I think I've got that down now. He calls it the A Alionian .

2. I also rehearsed my minor pentatonic scales and its five shapes up and down the neck, ascending and descending on each shape, so i don't forget those as I learn new things.

3. I remind myself the four steps back thing. So, I remind myself that moving from the Am pentatonic shape in its first position (6th string, 5th fret), back four frets results in my being in a major pentatonic solo mode (I believe in the G Major key?)

4. Then I started playing the two scales that Craig posted Am and C Major. (just to be clear, the heavier strings are at the bottom of those diagrams right? So the low E string is at the bottom and the high E is at the top- right?)

5. Today- if I find time...I plan to keep playing the scales Craig posted till I memorize them and perhaps venture into lesson 3 online on that SFS method.

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#2881647 - 09/26/17 07:15 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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The next lesson online is not easy. Although it is worth struggling through. What he is doing is taking a shape (mode?) that he previously taught, and showing how to play in Locrian, dorian etc. This is something I am keenly interested in, but I am very quickly starting to appreciate why it is difficult to explain.

I am going to take my time on this next lesson because it can unlock a lot of thjings and I suspect that after I finally "get it", I'm going to look back on all the good advice I am getting on this thread and realize how blind I was ;-)

The journey continues...stay tune...in any mode you wish lol

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#2881663 - 09/26/17 08:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Well...I've gone through the next lessons which took me from Ionian, Locrian , dorian and one other. I am starting to get it. Rather than memorize all the notes, I memorized the methodology for playing all of these modes. So, my next steps are as follows:

Put the memorization cited above into practical use. In other words, it's not enough to know how to get to the modes in terms of notes, but actually practice getting to them by playing.

I also downloaded backing tracks by mode, that this guy makes available on his site. So after I do the step above, I'm actually going to play tot he backing tracks.

I am tempted to play to the backing tracks right away, but I know if I do that, I'll skip the important step of becoming fluid with playing the notes first.

THEN....I am going to circle back to the scales that Craig posted.



Edited by Music Fusion (09/26/17 08:37 AM)

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#2881670 - 09/26/17 08:51 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Yes. Indeed the lower line is the 6th string. Bascially, that is a pattern. When you play it, it is either the Major C or the Minor A scale (depending on where you start and the chord you are playing over). Not to convolute things, but that same pattern is also ALL of the modes in different keys. But don't get into that, yet.

The thing to keep in mind is, once memorized, you can slide that scale up and down the neck to get ANY key in Major or minor.

So, that same pattern, with all the notes shifted up one fret, will give you the A#minor and C# Major scales. Shift them up another fret and now you have the B minor and D Major scales.

There is a lot of theory to learn, but for now, just learning this will allow you to play over 90% of songs. Then, you can worry about modes and other scales. Keep in mind, there are only 12 notes and you can get thousands of different sounds with those 12 notes. Patterns are just a way for us to remember where those notes are. It's called "playing inside the box". Once you are comfortable with the "box", then you can look for the same notes, up and down the neck. So, instead of going to the next string, maybe slide up two frets on the same string, etc. etc. This will help you to branch out.

For the record, there is one other VERY commonly used pattern. The one I showed you is the most common. The second one is amazing too. Same scales (Major and minor), but the way the notes are organized allows you to get different riffs. Anyway...that's for another time.
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#2881676 - 09/26/17 09:27 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Hi Charles, yeah all of your scale charts (to include Astrings) have the low E 6th string on the bottom and the high E 1st string on the top...

When you play the 1st position of the A minor Aeolian scale across the neck starting at the 5th fret 6th string, try to notice that it contains all of the same notes that make up the 1st position (box or framework) for your Pentatonic Minor scale. Play them both at this location...

Now put your 4 fingers on each of the 4 frets and you'll find your index finger is on the 5th fret and your little finger is on the 8th fret (4 frets up). So, you'll find that the relative major of A minor is C major. Now, don't move your A minor Pentatonic scale position and strum an A minor chord then play your scale and keep doing that for awhile. Now instead of strumming an A minor chord, strum a C major chord and play the exact same scale at the exact same position. Keep doing that and you'll hear how just using your imagination you can change from a major to a minor scale using the exact same notes! The 1st position A minor Pentatonic scale is the 5th position of the C major Pentatonic scale.

Ps. We were both posting at the same time Astring LOL!

cool



Edited by Larryz (09/26/17 12:24 PM)
Edit Reason: sp.
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#2881783 - 09/26/17 07:45 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks

The good news is that I have made some pretty good progress on the different modes (Lorian, Ioanian, Aelonian etc etc). I can actually match the mode patterns against the backing tracks provided on that video tutorial and it actually sounds good. It's a bit tedious running through all the modes shapes across different parts of the neck and remembering to make sure that the "tonic" is placed on the root note you want to launch from, but I'm getting the hang of that.

But here's my point of induced confusion ( probably because I'm trying to understand too many things at once.)

So I know the minor pentatonic scales and the 4 fret shift.

I now understand these dorian, lorian etc modes and how to move them around the fretboard and how to make sure I am aligned with the backing tracks provided.

And Craig has provided the Am and C major scales that I still have to get to and incorporate.

BUT, here's my point of confusion.

All the things mentioned above are really cool, and I can see how they can yield some very good results.

But stepping away from all the fancy stuff I've learned as mentioned above (well, maybe fancy to just me), I take myself back to a simple chord progression

D G A D

If someone where to play that using a pop/rockabilly type of feel, do I:

Use the minor pentatonic shape starting at the 6th string 12th fret

OR

Do I use the 4 step rule and start the minor pentatonic shape on the 6th string 8th fret

OR

Do I pick one of the dorian, Aoelian, Lydian etc scales and position the tonic note on the
6th string 12th fret and play that

I guess what I am saying, is that I am learning so many routes, that I am wondering how to determine which way to go with a simple chord progression such as D G A D

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#2881793 - 09/26/17 10:56 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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The 6th string at the 12 fret is E. Do you see an E chord in the D G A D pattern? So why do you want to start your scales with an E which puts you in the key of E? The song is in the key of D, so pick D as your starting point located on the 6th string at the 10th fret. Determine if it's a minor key or a major key. If it's country it's most likely in a major key, so start with D major. You can start whatever scale or mode you want to play in the Key of D, going up or going down, from that starting point on the 10th fret. Line up all of your scales on the 1st and 6th string for the key you wish to play in before you begin...

If you will stop taking all those different routes, you will learn the basics with less confusion. Pick what you said you already know (i.e. the pentatonic major and minor). You can stay in the line up for the key of D or you can shift the exact same scale pattern being played across the neck, with each chord when it's played. (i.e. D on the 6th string 10th fret, G on the 6th string 3rd fret, A on the 6th string 5th fret). Try and get familiar with just the major and minor scales. Then add the other modes if you wish. The 4 fret drop explained above in the key of C, works with any key to include the key of D.

Practice over a country backing track in the key of D major (you can find a ton of them on YouTube). If you want to use one of the modes, line it up the same way. Some of them will not fit in with a country tune. A Pentatonic major or the Ionian (major) will work over just about any simple chord patterned country tune. cool





Edited by Larryz (09/26/17 11:01 PM)
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#2881843 - 09/27/17 06:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hey Larry. Sorry about the E D reference. I meant to say the 10th fret. I know that the 12th fret is an E because it sort of starts the guitar neck over again, but for some reason I typed D. So thanks for that.

You're right in that I've started learning a dizzying array of concepts, and once I started cracking the dorian etc nut, I got excited and became obsessed with that.

I'm going to take your advice amd concentrate on the basics again. I'm actually going to try to pace myself today. I think I'm taking on too much at once and managed to skip over the basics.

I'm going to take a breather and then when i get back to it, I'm going to start with Craig's scale rfeferences up above and the advice in your last post above.

Thanks for being patient. I feel like a kid in a candy shop finally unlocking how to improvise without sounding like a car wreck, but I'm going too fast.

C





Edited by Music Fusion (09/27/17 06:36 AM)

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#2881859 - 09/27/17 07:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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You're doing great and I don't want to slow you down. We all have our learning curves with some people (i.e. with photographic memories LOL!) able to take on as much as you are. So keep going at your own pace...but, go slow enough to digest a few scales and get the basics down. Here's a simple backing track in the Key of A. Use your Pentatonic minor and your Aeolian minor to play over it. Now use your Dorian mode scale to play over it. All 3 will sound great! Line up on the 6th string at the 5th fret as your starting point for all 3! The A position starting point is a good way to go as you have a lot of frets above and a lot below the A. Good luck and have some fun!



cool

cool
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#2881864 - 09/27/17 08:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Larry:

This is a perfect bite sized piece. Thank-you. I'm going to get to it today. Tonight and tomorrow night, I am going to be out and about and so it will force me to take a break from this. I think the challenge hereonin for me will be to pace my learning. But it sure feels good to get as far as I have and I continue to be thnakful to the folks here who obviously know their stuff and are helpful and generous of their time and skill.

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#2881867 - 09/27/17 08:08 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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thu
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#2881870 - 09/27/17 08:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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unrelated question. I am trying to chnage my password on this forum and it says to go to the Forum navogation Island and select edit password. But I don't see any forum navigation island anywhere

It's okay...I found it...


Edited by Music Fusion (09/27/17 08:22 AM)

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#2881883 - 09/27/17 09:47 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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You are absolutely right. All the approaches sound great over top of that jam track. It also helpped me to see that certain notes that are not included within the "box" of one approach, are permitted in other approaches. So, that was rather liberating in that I am beginning to understand that I should not be imprisoned by the shapes but guided by them.

I am scheduled to jam along with some friends who play rockabilly. There is a song by J.D. McPherson that they play entitled North Side Gal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZGn4LncY0g

It's in D with a D G A D kind of progression. They know that I am a rythm player and am a train wreck on lead. But with all this new stuff I have been learning, I was hoping to surprise them.

So On North Side Gal, the D minor pentatonic shape, played starting on the 6th string 10th fret sounds very good. I stepped it back but that approach did not seem to have as good a fit. It still sounded on, but the other approach sounded more suitable. Does that make sense?

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#2881938 - 09/27/17 03:10 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Charles


Edited by Music Fusion (09/28/17 09:42 AM)

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#2882142 - 09/28/17 12:16 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Yes, it makes sense. The J.D. band have more of Cajun feel and I love their vibe. This is one of those songs where both the Pentatonic Major and Pentatonic Minor work on the same tune. Center on the 10th fret 6th string D. Use you Minor position 1 with a 1st finger start on the 10th fret and play the 4 frets above the D. Then use your Pentatonic minor position 1 with a little finger start and play the 4 frets below the D. They will both work and if you mix it up the boys will be wondering where you got all that from LOL!

I like the major sound below the D best especially while that guitar lead comes in. Then when he stops, I like shifting above the D for some new sound...play with it and see what you can come up with in a Cajun vibe. cool


Edited by Larryz (09/29/17 08:15 AM)
Edit Reason: sp.
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#2882173 - 09/28/17 02:23 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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Hey Larry. that worked great!

Thank-you

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#2882193 - 09/28/17 03:20 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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thu
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#2883005 - 10/02/17 05:11 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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okay...I'm back at it and maybe I confused myself, If I am playing the first minor pentatonic position (starting at string 6 fret 10), don't I move 3 frets back and play that same pattern to achieve the major pentatonic? (in other words starting on the B note on the 6th string?)

this is for that D A G D chord progression that we;ve been working with above (The North End Gal song)


I am getting confused between moving 3 frets back and 4 frets back. I think it's 3 frets back.


Edited by Music Fusion (10/02/17 05:12 PM)

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#2883012 - 10/02/17 05:27 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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I've just confirmed that it's 3 steps back, but I am confused as to why i thought it was 4 steps back.

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#2883021 - 10/02/17 06:52 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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It is 4...there are those that don't count the fret they are starting on. As I explained before, put your index finger on the A at the 5th fret 6th string, now put your little finger on the C at the 8th fret 6th string...each one of your four fingers (with the ones in-between taking up the other two frets) will have 4 frets under them. It won't matter which way you want to count them. Each one of your Pentatonic positions takes up about 4 frets.

If you are playing the song in D do it the same way, put your index finger on the D and play your scale within the 4 fret span above and including the D. Now put your little finger on the D and play your scale within the 4 fret span below and including the D. Try not to over think it. Use your own judgement and count it whichever way that's easy for you to work with...


Edited by Larryz (10/02/17 07:30 PM)
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#2883142 - 10/03/17 12:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks Larry.

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#2883148 - 10/03/17 12:41 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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I think I'm going to stop learning new stuff for a while and review everything that has been written on this thread, from the very beginning. There is some great stuff that people have written here but because I was in an early part of my struggle, much of it didn't make sense to me. But now, if I re-read it all, I am sure it will start making a lot morer sense. i always want to capitlize on the trouble every took to help me. So, stay tuned...it just may prompt more questions but hopefully they will be better informed questions ;-0

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#2883162 - 10/03/17 01:49 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Thanks Larry.


thu
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#2883164 - 10/03/17 01:51 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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Hey, we are here for you and always happy to help.
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#2883585 - 10/06/17 06:28 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks:

So i just combed through each page of this thread and began cutting and pasting all the stuff that i need to get to. I actually printed it all out so that I can easily review the material with guitar in hand. Fof me, sometimes having it in printed form, makes a difference.

So brace, yourselves...I may have more questions. But I am going to make a solid effort to try to learn it by re-reading it, and trying the advice out on my guitar.

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#2883704 - 10/06/17 08:26 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Keep at it Charles! Don't forget to take those YT lessons one at a time. You are on the most important journey and it will take you a lifetime to complete it, summed up in just one word: Improvisation! Have fun! cool


Edited by Larryz (10/06/17 08:27 PM)
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#2883744 - 10/07/17 06:49 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thank-you. I reviewd the relative minor video and now understand how to determine the relative minor key. So I am hoping to keep that in my head today.

I have an unrelated question. There is likley an easy answer to this that alludes me.

It occured to me that once I get to the G note (3rd fret, 6th string), I can no longer do the 4 frets back rule because I ran out of frets. So, if you have a song that requires a G major (rather than a minor pentatonic), how would I position my fingers to achieve the first shape of the minor pentatonic, but 4 frets back, to get the major feel- given that I run out of frets.

Thank-you

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#2883747 - 10/07/17 07:47 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Start at the 15th fret, 6th string and move back 4?


Edited by Music Fusion (10/07/17 07:47 AM)

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#2883750 - 10/07/17 08:24 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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You can start on the 15th fret with your little finger or you can do the same thing starting on the 3rd fret. Put your 1st finger on the nut and your little finger on the 3rd fret. Now play your scale and each time you will use your 1st finger on the nut instead of the string, you will play the open string as though you still had a fret to work with. This will work great for the country G major key and the relative minor key of E minor. It's a fun way to get some open string leads going for you... cool
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#2883765 - 10/07/17 10:14 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi Larry. Great tip about putting the first finger on the nut.

Thank-you

Charles

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#2883771 - 10/07/17 10:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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#2883777 - 10/07/17 11:44 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Finally...I've com itted the C Major and the Am scale to memory (the ones that Craig drew on a prior page).

So now.......

I am trying to figure out how these two scales fit in to the grander scheme of thimgs. Here's what is ping ponging in my mind:

I know the pentatonic minor shapes- enables me to solo in a bluesy way

I know how to move that shape back 4 fret to give it a happy feel

And now I have memorized the C Major and Am scale

So.......the question is ...when do I use the C major and Am scales and I assume they are both moveable.

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#2883778 - 10/07/17 11:52 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Maybe I can ask it this way:

Someone is playing a chord progression that looks like this:

C F G


I know that if I play the first minor pentatonic shape, starting at the 8th fret 6th string, I will get a bluesy thing which may not be best. If I move 4 frets back, and play the first minor pentotonic shape, I will be on the 5th fret 6th string and get a happy sound which will likey sound better. But when do I play the C major scale?


Edited by Music Fusion (10/07/17 11:53 AM)

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#2883849 - 10/08/17 06:08 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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The above is probably a stupid question. I am sensing that the C major scale and basic scales are just tools that you need to have, but I probably asked the question above in a distorted way/

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#2883860 - 10/08/17 08:00 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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No such thing as a stupid question...you're right, the scales are just tools to point the way. You get to decide which ones work best and sound best to you. You apply the modes or the pentatonics that get you in the right mood. No one can teach you to improvise. It comes from within.

As a rule of thumb, C F and G will work with a country feel which is usually major

C F and G with 7ths and 9ths will work with a major or minor

C F and G in minors will give you a bluesy feel and works best with minor scales

You have to take it from there...switch in and out of the major and minor modes with your pentatonic 5 positions to get some variety in your scale work. Throw in some chromatic runs and throw in a melody line now and then. These things help me break things up and discover new ideas as I continue to improvise over songs and chord patterns. Keep training with that YT instructor that you found and all of your questions will be answered. Playing over backing tracks will really help too, keep practicing and seeking improvement, and you'll learn some new ways to be creative... cool

ps. yes, all of the scales (to include the major and minor are moveable).


Edited by Larryz (10/08/17 08:12 AM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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#2883864 - 10/08/17 08:20 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Part of the issue is the way you are viewing the scales. The C Major scale is only different from any other major scale because of where it sits on the neck. If you slide it up one fret, you have the C# Major scale. Slide it you again and you have the D Major scale, etc. etc. The scales have a certain feel to them because of the order the notes are played in vs. the chords you play over them.

So, now that you have the CMajor/Aminor pattern memorized, let's try something:

Play (record if you can) a C Major chord, just strumming. Now, play a solo using the notes, from the pattern I showed you, using only the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings (to simplify we are leaving out the rest of the pattern). Try to end each little riff on the C, 3rd string 5th fret. You should get an upbeat, almost Country music sound.

Now, do the same thing, with the same notes only playing over an Aminor chord and ending all your riffs on the A 4th string, 7th fret. Now, those same notes sound minor.

So now. Why did one set sound Major and the other Minor? Same notes, right? It boils down to the way scales work.

All major scales follow a pattern of steps. W W H W W W H (whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half). Start on any root notes and follow those steps and you will get a major scale. So, on a piano, if you play from the C it's C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C no sharps or flats because you didn't hit ANY black keys). Now, to give any scale a minor sound (and to make an actual minor scale) all you have to do is drop the third, sixth and seventh notes in that scale. ie. C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb,C) suddenly you have a Minor scale (which, for the record, is W, H, W, W, H, W, W)

Now, in our example on the guitar, The notes, if you start on a C and follow the W W H W W W H, the notes you will hit are C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. So, that is the C Major scale. However, if you start on the A and play it, it has a minor sound. The reason is, the notes in an A minor scale, if you Start on A and play W, H, W, W, H, W, W are A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A. Same notes.

It's the rules about the scales that make the scale sounds. We are simply taking advantage of the fact that notes overlap and allow us to play several different sounding scales, using the same notes.

Need to play over a country song in G? Play the same shape as the A minor scale, up on the 12th fret (root note is 5th string 10th fret) Wanna play some mean blues licks over a song in e minor? Play the exact same scale on the 12th fret. That very same patten can be moved up and down to play over any song in any key.

Modes come into play when you play those same scales over other keys to get even more exotic sounds.

From there, you can learn the same notes, in other patterns. Remember patterns are just a way to help you remember where the notes are on the neck. They can be blended together or moved. It's the notes themselves that matter.
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#2883865 - 10/08/17 08:33 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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In your example of a tune containing the progession C-F-G, you can play the C Major scale over the entire song, as long as you watch your "targets" within each chord. This is called a "parent scale" and can be played over any "diatonic" progression ("diatonic" means "of or pertaining to a key").
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#2883880 - 10/08/17 10:58 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Music Fusion Offline
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Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi guys. Thanks again. I did what Craig suggested and recorded a C chord strumming and then an Am choird strumming. It didn't take long to get a full appreciation of how that C major scale sounds very different over the two chords.

I am thrilled that things are starting to make more sense. I actulaly played a solo for a friend of mine the other day. It was to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBA5rAyfOQk

I started on the 12th fret with the first shape of the minor penatonic and then I started moving forwards and backwards, using the different shapes. As I played, it occured to me that i can keep going up the neck with the shapes until I ran out of frets. So the very last shape had me utilizing the very last frets on the fretboard, while still playing perfectly in key. My friend;s eyes widened and said, how do you learn that? I told him about this forum and in truth, i am getting more here than from the YT teacher, although his stufff was really good as well and am thankful to both sources.

And get this, when Craig said to play the C scale over the C chord and then over the Am chord, I realized that the Am chord is the first chord of the relative minor of the C scale. How's that? Because it comes 6th on the CDEFGABC

I couldn't do any of this months ago. You guys have really helped me enourmously!!!! I'm still learning though.

Thank-you

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#2883881 - 10/08/17 11:00 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
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I think my next stop will be circling back to the Circle of 5ths. Everyone says it's important and I rremmeber skipping by it, as I did not get it. But I'm going to try it again.


Edited by Music Fusion (10/08/17 11:00 AM)

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#2883883 - 10/08/17 11:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Here's a video i found which seems pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiAUbJPYg8k

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#2883888 - 10/08/17 11:37 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
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Loc: Ontario
Here's a sample of my playing over the a backing track. There is no way i could have done this a few months ago. It's not perfect, and you will hear that at one point, I ran out of frets and hit a couple of sour notes because my fingers were sliding off the tip of the fretboard lol

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_4fpaJjNKSJcnIyVnA4UGJRYnc/view?usp=sharing

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#2883903 - 10/08/17 01:17 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
sorry try this

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsiTPiy1tMxMgp4N41asCOCZA5GxxQ


Edited by Music Fusion (10/08/17 01:17 PM)

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#2883908 - 10/08/17 01:54 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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Kicking backside with the riffing, my friend! Nicely done!

Once the light bulb clicks on with this stuff, you can then go forward and learn more theory including the circle of fifths. Remember ALL of this stuff is just a way to organize and remember things. It really does all boil down to the way these notes sound, on context, with chords.
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#2883938 - 10/08/17 05:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
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well you guys helped me out enourmously. It would have been impossible for me to figure this stuff out on my own. Once I get some time, I'll record a proper song that I am inprovising to. I am so plessed with all of this.

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#2884273 - 10/10/17 12:00 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6011
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Hey, surprised to see me back ?
Well, I'm surprised to be back ut I got a sales pitch in my in box that reminded me of what I tried to hip ya to before.

Think abt this: (here I quote the email I got)

What do we almost NEVER see being taught in any guitar lesson?

Answer: The PROCESS of learning from music itself (where the techniques come from). Because this process can't be sold more than once... and is actually far more powerful than any technique you'll ever learn. And that's exactly why they don't bother to teach it.

But understand this: Techniques and theory divorced from music cannot possibly lead to learning the guitar.

If you were learning a new language, would you go try to memorize random words without using them in sentences? Of course not. And that's why no amount of "memorizing the dictionary" will get you there with guitar either. You need to learn the language of music. And that's impossible without a strategy for using real music as examples (NOT techniques and theory alone).

And if you continue to make this mistake, whether you realize it or not... you've basically doomed yourself to a lifetime of hard work and frustration.

On the other hand, even if you've been making this mistake your entire life... as soon as you stop and begin doing the right things... you won't believe how effortless it suddenly becomes to make fast continuous progress on the guitar.

[End of quotation]

Best of luck, but remember later where ya heard it
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#2884277 - 10/10/17 12:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi guys. This is a link of me improvising to a song I wrote. A few notes:

1. I over played. Normally, I would be tasteful about where and when i add parts, but the point of this recording is simply to show my progress, so I played almost continiuously.

2. I plan on trying to learn these shapes and scaless horizontally as well as backward and forwards, in adiition to up and down. My goal is to be more fluid and creative, as I become more comfortable with moving about.

A note to D. I take your point. Being a songwriter, I always start from the creative side of things. As I explained, the songs I have written (every one of them) came from my heart and soul and not from a formulae. But with lead playing, I found it extremely helpful to follow what has been taught on this thread, hoping that in time, I will merge it with my creative side and hopefully, come up with things that flow.

Here is the link. I'm very grateful to all!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_4fpaJjNKSJcDAyaUlfY0E1YUU

By the way, there were no takes on this. I just played straight through and kept whatever came out.



Edited by Music Fusion (10/10/17 12:32 PM)

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#2884488 - 10/11/17 03:03 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Fred_C Offline
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Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2033
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: d
Hey, surprised to see me back ?
Well, I'm surprised to be back ut I got a sales pitch in my in box that reminded me of what I tried to hip ya to before.

Think abt this: (here I quote the email I got)

What do we almost NEVER see being taught in any guitar lesson?

Answer: The PROCESS of learning from music itself (where the techniques come from). Because this process can't be sold more than once... and is actually far more powerful than any technique you'll ever learn. And that's exactly why they don't bother to teach it.

But understand this: Techniques and theory divorced from music cannot possibly lead to learning the guitar.

If you were learning a new language, would you go try to memorize random words without using them in sentences? Of course not. And that's why no amount of "memorizing the dictionary" will get you there with guitar either. You need to learn the language of music. And that's impossible without a strategy for using real music as examples (NOT techniques and theory alone).

And if you continue to make this mistake, whether you realize it or not... you've basically doomed yourself to a lifetime of hard work and frustration.

On the other hand, even if you've been making this mistake your entire life... as soon as you stop and begin doing the right things... you won't believe how effortless it suddenly becomes to make fast continuous progress on the guitar.

[End of quotation]

Best of luck, but remember later where ya heard it


@d,

Once again we agree in principle.

I have always been an advocate of strong technique and the study of Theory. IMO, the more theory youlearn and assimilate, the better a player you will become.

My Blues teacher, Jerry Ricks did not teach any theory at all. But, he placed great emphasis on good technique. Jerry taught solos, one after the other with the level of technical difficulty consistently increasing week to week.

My first Jazz teacher taught a theory lesson followed by a music lesson in which the previous weeks theory lesson was exemplified and applied.

Both of these teaching styles worked well for me.

I don't think there is a single methodology that works equally well for every student. Different people learn differently. I think this concept is well illustrated in Stephen Crane's poem "The Wayfarer".

The Wayfarer

The wayfarer,
Perceiving the pathway to truth,
Was struck with astonishment.
It was thickly grown with weeds.
"Ha," he said,
"I see that none has passed here
In a long time."
Later he saw that each weed
Was a singular knife.
"Well," he mumbled at last,
"Doubtless there are other roads."

Stephen Crane



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#2884604 - 10/12/17 08:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
d Offline
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Fred, thanks for yer comments but, to clarify, I'm not addressing the differences that we all have in learning or teaching methods.
To me (& this is the result of a long time spent in study of how to study) many try to reduce things to various types of formulae.

While there's some helpfulness in that approach, I think it actually makes everything more difficult, particularly when learners focus on the nomenclature or terminology of ideas rather than the ideas themselves. That's why I finally decided to ignore such things as the name of a scale or mode in favor of hearing what the pitch series might be (the other stuff can be learned or referenced later).

Not only do ppl get the impression that such formulae (such as scales related to chord progressions, ignoring melodic aim, etc) are the point, they sometimes never understand that, particularly in the case of music, all such "rules" are constantly in flux.
There is no right nor wrong abt what one might do musically. It's always contextual.
Music theory, regardless of culture, style or other measures, has always followed what composers have done.
All music theory has to do w/ the effect of what one plays & what that suggests to a listener.

When a player learns a formula, that may help them for a while but it puts them on a path that ignores what they really need attend, i.e., what any music they're playing is for & what it's particular qualities are..
At worse, it gives them the idea that "parts is parts" & they can shift lines indiscriminately or even randomly.
That can be done & it can even be done (semi)successfully.
However that's not gonna take them to an actual understanding of music.
Technique is not music.

My basic point is that one needs to hear & understand the effect of music in context.
There are infinite ways to play any general harmonic progression or melodic theme but if they get too mashed up, it's just, well, a mash.
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#2884616 - 10/12/17 08:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
In terms of my personal musical journey, when I write songs, I always say to myself that it will be up to others to represent whatI created in sheet music form (if the work has merit and is of interest). Translating music into sheet music, is not something I'm good at, and it's not something I was even interested in.

I always thought the scientific representation of music on a paper, is unnatural. But I respect people who can do that. I know I am sounding self contradictory, but I continue to see the usefulness of learning methods when learning solo guitar. But from a songwriting perspective, I've purposefully wanted to not know the rules, so that whatever comes out, is natural and not driven or guided.


Edited by Music Fusion (10/12/17 08:49 AM)

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#2884635 - 10/12/17 10:08 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Nah, MF [ grin ], there's value in notation & alla that.
Heck, man, we'd not know anything abt this w/out it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSLaV4K_Tw


& there's value in learning the technical aspects of how to play, etc.
My point is that those things are secondary to the instilled perception of the sound.

Knowing what you hear &/or how to respond is deeper & more immediate than the 2nd level decision of "what scale to play".
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#2884969 - 10/14/17 06:55 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Loc: Ontario
I suspect we are in agreement. When a song spills out of my guitar (an original song), I usuually find that I can't stop it. The best songs are the ones that come from the heart and soul and are drenched in a real life experience. At the creation pahse it has nothingto do with scales, notes, sheet music etc. It's all about your inner being.

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#2885066 - 10/14/17 06:30 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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I agree with that sentiment. Only thing I'd add is that understanding the theory (scales, chords and modes) give you a MUCH bigger tool box to play with. In essence, it expands your musical voice.
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#2885139 - 10/15/17 08:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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+1 on having some tools in your tool box and +1 on each of us will learn to play the guitar differently. So, go in the direction that makes it fun for you while getting your creative juices flowing. I like to spend a little time on theory, scales, chords, modes, lyrics, songs, licks, etc. It's always nice to have a plan and a direction to go in. Sometimes you need a map and sometimes you've been there enough times that you do not need a map...so here's a simple 3 chord 12 bar pentatonic blues lesson that I found interesting while discussing this thread. It may be worth your 13 minutes and 24 seconds to take a look. I'll be spending more time on this as it's what I want to do and I'll be running around the circle of 5ths with it:



cool
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#2885154 - 10/15/17 10:26 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks:

I will summarize it as follows (for me anyway)..

There are things I can do with a guitar where I would rather have the ability to run free and break or adhere to any "rules" that are out there. For me, it's best i don't know the rules when songwritng.

There are some things where I think it is very helful to have road maps. Learning what I did on this thread about scales, modes, etc etc. has been very beneficial. Practically speaking, it would have taken me ages to figure this out through trial and error and then internalize it. What I leanred here gave me the foundation and now the freedom to wander. Now I know that even when i get adventurous, i can always rely on the patterns I leanred here. But I think it is a combination of getting creative, wandering about with solos in order to make them creative expressions, and still knowing what you can fall back on.

Larry-I have bookmarked that video and plan to explore it. i like doing that sort of thing when I've got the time to devote to it. So, I plan on doing that in the next day or two. I'm getting very interested in learning new things, whereas in the past, i couldn't get beyond the technical stuff. Now, i welcome new ways of leanring music.



Edited by Music Fusion (10/15/17 10:28 AM)

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#2885157 - 10/15/17 10:38 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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+1 Charles, it's always fun (and that's a key word) to learn new stuff and expand your horizons. In the 2nd video which is too complex for me right now, it is recommended that you combine your practiced licks while creating your new ones. You don't have to adhere to any rules...just know they are out there. You'll automatically hear the clams. It's what we call music and the rules do not change. Try playing out of key and out of tune and out of time, and you'll appreciate some of the rules LOL! I like to work on theory about once a week maybe skip it completely for months at a time. But, I always run through a few scales to warm up with and keep them in mind. I thank you for starting this thread and it's always fun to start over and re-trace our footsteps! thu

ps. my biggest quest recently was incorporating chord tones and arpeggios into my improvisational scale work, and this lesson zero'ed in on exactly what I wanted to study... cool


Edited by Larryz (10/15/17 12:23 PM)
Edit Reason: ps
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#2885303 - 10/16/17 09:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
I agree with that sentiment. Only thing I'd add is that understanding the theory (scales, chords and modes) give you a MUCH bigger tool box to play with. In essence, it expands your musical voice.


Nothing I wrote discounts that.
My point has only been that internalizing the aural experience of those things is more vital than learning the nomenclature & that such internal awareness actually leads to a faster learning curve as well as a deeper rxpressiveness.
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#2885400 - 10/16/17 05:23 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
A String Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: A String
I agree with that sentiment. Only thing I'd add is that understanding the theory (scales, chords and modes) give you a MUCH bigger tool box to play with. In essence, it expands your musical voice.


Nothing I wrote discounts that.
My point has only been that internalizing the aural experience of those things is more vital than learning the nomenclature & that such internal awareness actually leads to a faster learning curve as well as a deeper rxpressiveness.


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