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#2883880 - 10/08/17 10:58 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi guys. Thanks again. I did what Craig suggested and recorded a C chord strumming and then an Am choird strumming. It didn't take long to get a full appreciation of how that C major scale sounds very different over the two chords.

I am thrilled that things are starting to make more sense. I actulaly played a solo for a friend of mine the other day. It was to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBA5rAyfOQk

I started on the 12th fret with the first shape of the minor penatonic and then I started moving forwards and backwards, using the different shapes. As I played, it occured to me that i can keep going up the neck with the shapes until I ran out of frets. So the very last shape had me utilizing the very last frets on the fretboard, while still playing perfectly in key. My friend;s eyes widened and said, how do you learn that? I told him about this forum and in truth, i am getting more here than from the YT teacher, although his stufff was really good as well and am thankful to both sources.

And get this, when Craig said to play the C scale over the C chord and then over the Am chord, I realized that the Am chord is the first chord of the relative minor of the C scale. How's that? Because it comes 6th on the CDEFGABC

I couldn't do any of this months ago. You guys have really helped me enourmously!!!! I'm still learning though.

Thank-you

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#2883881 - 10/08/17 11:00 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I think my next stop will be circling back to the Circle of 5ths. Everyone says it's important and I rremmeber skipping by it, as I did not get it. But I'm going to try it again.


Edited by Music Fusion (10/08/17 11:00 AM)

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#2883883 - 10/08/17 11:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Here's a video i found which seems pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiAUbJPYg8k

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#2883888 - 10/08/17 11:37 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Here's a sample of my playing over the a backing track. There is no way i could have done this a few months ago. It's not perfect, and you will hear that at one point, I ran out of frets and hit a couple of sour notes because my fingers were sliding off the tip of the fretboard lol

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_4fpaJjNKSJcnIyVnA4UGJRYnc/view?usp=sharing

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#2883903 - 10/08/17 01:17 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
sorry try this

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsiTPiy1tMxMgp4N41asCOCZA5GxxQ


Edited by Music Fusion (10/08/17 01:17 PM)

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#2883908 - 10/08/17 01:54 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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Kicking backside with the riffing, my friend! Nicely done!

Once the light bulb clicks on with this stuff, you can then go forward and learn more theory including the circle of fifths. Remember ALL of this stuff is just a way to organize and remember things. It really does all boil down to the way these notes sound, on context, with chords.
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#2883938 - 10/08/17 05:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
well you guys helped me out enourmously. It would have been impossible for me to figure this stuff out on my own. Once I get some time, I'll record a proper song that I am inprovising to. I am so plessed with all of this.

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#2884273 - 10/10/17 12:00 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6016
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Hey, surprised to see me back ?
Well, I'm surprised to be back ut I got a sales pitch in my in box that reminded me of what I tried to hip ya to before.

Think abt this: (here I quote the email I got)

What do we almost NEVER see being taught in any guitar lesson?

Answer: The PROCESS of learning from music itself (where the techniques come from). Because this process can't be sold more than once... and is actually far more powerful than any technique you'll ever learn. And that's exactly why they don't bother to teach it.

But understand this: Techniques and theory divorced from music cannot possibly lead to learning the guitar.

If you were learning a new language, would you go try to memorize random words without using them in sentences? Of course not. And that's why no amount of "memorizing the dictionary" will get you there with guitar either. You need to learn the language of music. And that's impossible without a strategy for using real music as examples (NOT techniques and theory alone).

And if you continue to make this mistake, whether you realize it or not... you've basically doomed yourself to a lifetime of hard work and frustration.

On the other hand, even if you've been making this mistake your entire life... as soon as you stop and begin doing the right things... you won't believe how effortless it suddenly becomes to make fast continuous progress on the guitar.

[End of quotation]

Best of luck, but remember later where ya heard it
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#2884277 - 10/10/17 12:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi guys. This is a link of me improvising to a song I wrote. A few notes:

1. I over played. Normally, I would be tasteful about where and when i add parts, but the point of this recording is simply to show my progress, so I played almost continiuously.

2. I plan on trying to learn these shapes and scaless horizontally as well as backward and forwards, in adiition to up and down. My goal is to be more fluid and creative, as I become more comfortable with moving about.

A note to D. I take your point. Being a songwriter, I always start from the creative side of things. As I explained, the songs I have written (every one of them) came from my heart and soul and not from a formulae. But with lead playing, I found it extremely helpful to follow what has been taught on this thread, hoping that in time, I will merge it with my creative side and hopefully, come up with things that flow.

Here is the link. I'm very grateful to all!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_4fpaJjNKSJcDAyaUlfY0E1YUU

By the way, there were no takes on this. I just played straight through and kept whatever came out.



Edited by Music Fusion (10/10/17 12:32 PM)

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#2884488 - 10/11/17 03:03 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2033
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: d
Hey, surprised to see me back ?
Well, I'm surprised to be back ut I got a sales pitch in my in box that reminded me of what I tried to hip ya to before.

Think abt this: (here I quote the email I got)

What do we almost NEVER see being taught in any guitar lesson?

Answer: The PROCESS of learning from music itself (where the techniques come from). Because this process can't be sold more than once... and is actually far more powerful than any technique you'll ever learn. And that's exactly why they don't bother to teach it.

But understand this: Techniques and theory divorced from music cannot possibly lead to learning the guitar.

If you were learning a new language, would you go try to memorize random words without using them in sentences? Of course not. And that's why no amount of "memorizing the dictionary" will get you there with guitar either. You need to learn the language of music. And that's impossible without a strategy for using real music as examples (NOT techniques and theory alone).

And if you continue to make this mistake, whether you realize it or not... you've basically doomed yourself to a lifetime of hard work and frustration.

On the other hand, even if you've been making this mistake your entire life... as soon as you stop and begin doing the right things... you won't believe how effortless it suddenly becomes to make fast continuous progress on the guitar.

[End of quotation]

Best of luck, but remember later where ya heard it


@d,

Once again we agree in principle.

I have always been an advocate of strong technique and the study of Theory. IMO, the more theory youlearn and assimilate, the better a player you will become.

My Blues teacher, Jerry Ricks did not teach any theory at all. But, he placed great emphasis on good technique. Jerry taught solos, one after the other with the level of technical difficulty consistently increasing week to week.

My first Jazz teacher taught a theory lesson followed by a music lesson in which the previous weeks theory lesson was exemplified and applied.

Both of these teaching styles worked well for me.

I don't think there is a single methodology that works equally well for every student. Different people learn differently. I think this concept is well illustrated in Stephen Crane's poem "The Wayfarer".

The Wayfarer

The wayfarer,
Perceiving the pathway to truth,
Was struck with astonishment.
It was thickly grown with weeds.
"Ha," he said,
"I see that none has passed here
In a long time."
Later he saw that each weed
Was a singular knife.
"Well," he mumbled at last,
"Doubtless there are other roads."

Stephen Crane



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#2884604 - 10/12/17 08:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6016
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Fred, thanks for yer comments but, to clarify, I'm not addressing the differences that we all have in learning or teaching methods.
To me (& this is the result of a long time spent in study of how to study) many try to reduce things to various types of formulae.

While there's some helpfulness in that approach, I think it actually makes everything more difficult, particularly when learners focus on the nomenclature or terminology of ideas rather than the ideas themselves. That's why I finally decided to ignore such things as the name of a scale or mode in favor of hearing what the pitch series might be (the other stuff can be learned or referenced later).

Not only do ppl get the impression that such formulae (such as scales related to chord progressions, ignoring melodic aim, etc) are the point, they sometimes never understand that, particularly in the case of music, all such "rules" are constantly in flux.
There is no right nor wrong abt what one might do musically. It's always contextual.
Music theory, regardless of culture, style or other measures, has always followed what composers have done.
All music theory has to do w/ the effect of what one plays & what that suggests to a listener.

When a player learns a formula, that may help them for a while but it puts them on a path that ignores what they really need attend, i.e., what any music they're playing is for & what it's particular qualities are..
At worse, it gives them the idea that "parts is parts" & they can shift lines indiscriminately or even randomly.
That can be done & it can even be done (semi)successfully.
However that's not gonna take them to an actual understanding of music.
Technique is not music.

My basic point is that one needs to hear & understand the effect of music in context.
There are infinite ways to play any general harmonic progression or melodic theme but if they get too mashed up, it's just, well, a mash.
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#2884616 - 10/12/17 08:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
In terms of my personal musical journey, when I write songs, I always say to myself that it will be up to others to represent whatI created in sheet music form (if the work has merit and is of interest). Translating music into sheet music, is not something I'm good at, and it's not something I was even interested in.

I always thought the scientific representation of music on a paper, is unnatural. But I respect people who can do that. I know I am sounding self contradictory, but I continue to see the usefulness of learning methods when learning solo guitar. But from a songwriting perspective, I've purposefully wanted to not know the rules, so that whatever comes out, is natural and not driven or guided.


Edited by Music Fusion (10/12/17 08:49 AM)

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#2884635 - 10/12/17 10:08 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6016
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Nah, MF [ grin ], there's value in notation & alla that.
Heck, man, we'd not know anything abt this w/out it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSLaV4K_Tw


& there's value in learning the technical aspects of how to play, etc.
My point is that those things are secondary to the instilled perception of the sound.

Knowing what you hear &/or how to respond is deeper & more immediate than the 2nd level decision of "what scale to play".
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#2884969 - 10/14/17 06:55 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I suspect we are in agreement. When a song spills out of my guitar (an original song), I usuually find that I can't stop it. The best songs are the ones that come from the heart and soul and are drenched in a real life experience. At the creation pahse it has nothingto do with scales, notes, sheet music etc. It's all about your inner being.

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#2885066 - 10/14/17 06:30 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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I agree with that sentiment. Only thing I'd add is that understanding the theory (scales, chords and modes) give you a MUCH bigger tool box to play with. In essence, it expands your musical voice.
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#2885139 - 10/15/17 08:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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+1 on having some tools in your tool box and +1 on each of us will learn to play the guitar differently. So, go in the direction that makes it fun for you while getting your creative juices flowing. I like to spend a little time on theory, scales, chords, modes, lyrics, songs, licks, etc. It's always nice to have a plan and a direction to go in. Sometimes you need a map and sometimes you've been there enough times that you do not need a map...so here's a simple 3 chord 12 bar pentatonic blues lesson that I found interesting while discussing this thread. It may be worth your 13 minutes and 24 seconds to take a look. I'll be spending more time on this as it's what I want to do and I'll be running around the circle of 5ths with it:



cool
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#2885154 - 10/15/17 10:26 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks:

I will summarize it as follows (for me anyway)..

There are things I can do with a guitar where I would rather have the ability to run free and break or adhere to any "rules" that are out there. For me, it's best i don't know the rules when songwritng.

There are some things where I think it is very helful to have road maps. Learning what I did on this thread about scales, modes, etc etc. has been very beneficial. Practically speaking, it would have taken me ages to figure this out through trial and error and then internalize it. What I leanred here gave me the foundation and now the freedom to wander. Now I know that even when i get adventurous, i can always rely on the patterns I leanred here. But I think it is a combination of getting creative, wandering about with solos in order to make them creative expressions, and still knowing what you can fall back on.

Larry-I have bookmarked that video and plan to explore it. i like doing that sort of thing when I've got the time to devote to it. So, I plan on doing that in the next day or two. I'm getting very interested in learning new things, whereas in the past, i couldn't get beyond the technical stuff. Now, i welcome new ways of leanring music.



Edited by Music Fusion (10/15/17 10:28 AM)

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#2885157 - 10/15/17 10:38 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
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+1 Charles, it's always fun (and that's a key word) to learn new stuff and expand your horizons. In the 2nd video which is too complex for me right now, it is recommended that you combine your practiced licks while creating your new ones. You don't have to adhere to any rules...just know they are out there. You'll automatically hear the clams. It's what we call music and the rules do not change. Try playing out of key and out of tune and out of time, and you'll appreciate some of the rules LOL! I like to work on theory about once a week maybe skip it completely for months at a time. But, I always run through a few scales to warm up with and keep them in mind. I thank you for starting this thread and it's always fun to start over and re-trace our footsteps! thu

ps. my biggest quest recently was incorporating chord tones and arpeggios into my improvisational scale work, and this lesson zero'ed in on exactly what I wanted to study... cool


Edited by Larryz (10/15/17 12:23 PM)
Edit Reason: ps
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#2885303 - 10/16/17 09:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6016
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: A String
I agree with that sentiment. Only thing I'd add is that understanding the theory (scales, chords and modes) give you a MUCH bigger tool box to play with. In essence, it expands your musical voice.


Nothing I wrote discounts that.
My point has only been that internalizing the aural experience of those things is more vital than learning the nomenclature & that such internal awareness actually leads to a faster learning curve as well as a deeper rxpressiveness.
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#2885400 - 10/16/17 05:23 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
A String Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: A String
I agree with that sentiment. Only thing I'd add is that understanding the theory (scales, chords and modes) give you a MUCH bigger tool box to play with. In essence, it expands your musical voice.


Nothing I wrote discounts that.
My point has only been that internalizing the aural experience of those things is more vital than learning the nomenclature & that such internal awareness actually leads to a faster learning curve as well as a deeper rxpressiveness.


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