Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 5 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#2881843 - 09/27/17 06:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hey Larry. Sorry about the E D reference. I meant to say the 10th fret. I know that the 12th fret is an E because it sort of starts the guitar neck over again, but for some reason I typed D. So thanks for that.

You're right in that I've started learning a dizzying array of concepts, and once I started cracking the dorian etc nut, I got excited and became obsessed with that.

I'm going to take your advice amd concentrate on the basics again. I'm actually going to try to pace myself today. I think I'm taking on too much at once and managed to skip over the basics.

I'm going to take a breather and then when i get back to it, I'm going to start with Craig's scale rfeferences up above and the advice in your last post above.

Thanks for being patient. I feel like a kid in a candy shop finally unlocking how to improvise without sounding like a car wreck, but I'm going too fast.

C





Edited by Music Fusion (09/27/17 06:36 AM)

Top
GP Island
#2881859 - 09/27/17 07:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
You're doing great and I don't want to slow you down. We all have our learning curves with some people (i.e. with photographic memories LOL!) able to take on as much as you are. So keep going at your own pace...but, go slow enough to digest a few scales and get the basics down. Here's a simple backing track in the Key of A. Use your Pentatonic minor and your Aeolian minor to play over it. Now use your Dorian mode scale to play over it. All 3 will sound great! Line up on the 6th string at the 5th fret as your starting point for all 3! The A position starting point is a good way to go as you have a lot of frets above and a lot below the A. Good luck and have some fun!



cool

cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2881864 - 09/27/17 08:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Larry:

This is a perfect bite sized piece. Thank-you. I'm going to get to it today. Tonight and tomorrow night, I am going to be out and about and so it will force me to take a break from this. I think the challenge hereonin for me will be to pace my learning. But it sure feels good to get as far as I have and I continue to be thnakful to the folks here who obviously know their stuff and are helpful and generous of their time and skill.

Top
#2881867 - 09/27/17 08:08 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2881870 - 09/27/17 08:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
unrelated question. I am trying to chnage my password on this forum and it says to go to the Forum navogation Island and select edit password. But I don't see any forum navigation island anywhere

It's okay...I found it...


Edited by Music Fusion (09/27/17 08:22 AM)

Top
#2881883 - 09/27/17 09:47 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
You are absolutely right. All the approaches sound great over top of that jam track. It also helpped me to see that certain notes that are not included within the "box" of one approach, are permitted in other approaches. So, that was rather liberating in that I am beginning to understand that I should not be imprisoned by the shapes but guided by them.

I am scheduled to jam along with some friends who play rockabilly. There is a song by J.D. McPherson that they play entitled North Side Gal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZGn4LncY0g

It's in D with a D G A D kind of progression. They know that I am a rythm player and am a train wreck on lead. But with all this new stuff I have been learning, I was hoping to surprise them.

So On North Side Gal, the D minor pentatonic shape, played starting on the 6th string 10th fret sounds very good. I stepped it back but that approach did not seem to have as good a fit. It still sounded on, but the other approach sounded more suitable. Does that make sense?

Top
#2881938 - 09/27/17 03:10 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario

Charles


Edited by Music Fusion (09/28/17 09:42 AM)

Top
#2882142 - 09/28/17 12:16 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Yes, it makes sense. The J.D. band have more of Cajun feel and I love their vibe. This is one of those songs where both the Pentatonic Major and Pentatonic Minor work on the same tune. Center on the 10th fret 6th string D. Use you Minor position 1 with a 1st finger start on the 10th fret and play the 4 frets above the D. Then use your Pentatonic minor position 1 with a little finger start and play the 4 frets below the D. They will both work and if you mix it up the boys will be wondering where you got all that from LOL!

I like the major sound below the D best especially while that guitar lead comes in. Then when he stops, I like shifting above the D for some new sound...play with it and see what you can come up with in a Cajun vibe. cool


Edited by Larryz (09/29/17 08:15 AM)
Edit Reason: sp.
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2882173 - 09/28/17 02:23 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hey Larry. that worked great!

Thank-you

Top
#2882193 - 09/28/17 03:20 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883005 - 10/02/17 05:11 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
okay...I'm back at it and maybe I confused myself, If I am playing the first minor pentatonic position (starting at string 6 fret 10), don't I move 3 frets back and play that same pattern to achieve the major pentatonic? (in other words starting on the B note on the 6th string?)

this is for that D A G D chord progression that we;ve been working with above (The North End Gal song)


I am getting confused between moving 3 frets back and 4 frets back. I think it's 3 frets back.


Edited by Music Fusion (10/02/17 05:12 PM)

Top
#2883012 - 10/02/17 05:27 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I've just confirmed that it's 3 steps back, but I am confused as to why i thought it was 4 steps back.

Top
#2883021 - 10/02/17 06:52 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
It is 4...there are those that don't count the fret they are starting on. As I explained before, put your index finger on the A at the 5th fret 6th string, now put your little finger on the C at the 8th fret 6th string...each one of your four fingers (with the ones in-between taking up the other two frets) will have 4 frets under them. It won't matter which way you want to count them. Each one of your Pentatonic positions takes up about 4 frets.

If you are playing the song in D do it the same way, put your index finger on the D and play your scale within the 4 fret span above and including the D. Now put your little finger on the D and play your scale within the 4 fret span below and including the D. Try not to over think it. Use your own judgement and count it whichever way that's easy for you to work with...


Edited by Larryz (10/02/17 07:30 PM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883142 - 10/03/17 12:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks Larry.

Top
#2883148 - 10/03/17 12:41 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I think I'm going to stop learning new stuff for a while and review everything that has been written on this thread, from the very beginning. There is some great stuff that people have written here but because I was in an early part of my struggle, much of it didn't make sense to me. But now, if I re-read it all, I am sure it will start making a lot morer sense. i always want to capitlize on the trouble every took to help me. So, stay tuned...it just may prompt more questions but hopefully they will be better informed questions ;-0

Top
#2883162 - 10/03/17 01:49 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Thanks Larry.


thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883164 - 10/03/17 01:51 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
A String Administrator Offline
Admin
10k Club

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 12037
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hey, we are here for you and always happy to help.
_________________________
Craig
The String Network Forums
My Music
My Pics

Top
#2883585 - 10/06/17 06:28 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks:

So i just combed through each page of this thread and began cutting and pasting all the stuff that i need to get to. I actually printed it all out so that I can easily review the material with guitar in hand. Fof me, sometimes having it in printed form, makes a difference.

So brace, yourselves...I may have more questions. But I am going to make a solid effort to try to learn it by re-reading it, and trying the advice out on my guitar.

Top
#2883704 - 10/06/17 08:26 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Keep at it Charles! Don't forget to take those YT lessons one at a time. You are on the most important journey and it will take you a lifetime to complete it, summed up in just one word: Improvisation! Have fun! cool


Edited by Larryz (10/06/17 08:27 PM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883744 - 10/07/17 06:49 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thank-you. I reviewd the relative minor video and now understand how to determine the relative minor key. So I am hoping to keep that in my head today.

I have an unrelated question. There is likley an easy answer to this that alludes me.

It occured to me that once I get to the G note (3rd fret, 6th string), I can no longer do the 4 frets back rule because I ran out of frets. So, if you have a song that requires a G major (rather than a minor pentatonic), how would I position my fingers to achieve the first shape of the minor pentatonic, but 4 frets back, to get the major feel- given that I run out of frets.

Thank-you

Top
#2883747 - 10/07/17 07:47 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Start at the 15th fret, 6th string and move back 4?


Edited by Music Fusion (10/07/17 07:47 AM)

Top
#2883750 - 10/07/17 08:24 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
You can start on the 15th fret with your little finger or you can do the same thing starting on the 3rd fret. Put your 1st finger on the nut and your little finger on the 3rd fret. Now play your scale and each time you will use your 1st finger on the nut instead of the string, you will play the open string as though you still had a fret to work with. This will work great for the country G major key and the relative minor key of E minor. It's a fun way to get some open string leads going for you... cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883765 - 10/07/17 10:14 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi Larry. Great tip about putting the first finger on the nut.

Thank-you

Charles

Top
#2883771 - 10/07/17 10:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
thu
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883777 - 10/07/17 11:44 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Finally...I've com itted the C Major and the Am scale to memory (the ones that Craig drew on a prior page).

So now.......

I am trying to figure out how these two scales fit in to the grander scheme of thimgs. Here's what is ping ponging in my mind:

I know the pentatonic minor shapes- enables me to solo in a bluesy way

I know how to move that shape back 4 fret to give it a happy feel

And now I have memorized the C Major and Am scale

So.......the question is ...when do I use the C major and Am scales and I assume they are both moveable.

Top
#2883778 - 10/07/17 11:52 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Maybe I can ask it this way:

Someone is playing a chord progression that looks like this:

C F G


I know that if I play the first minor pentatonic shape, starting at the 8th fret 6th string, I will get a bluesy thing which may not be best. If I move 4 frets back, and play the first minor pentotonic shape, I will be on the 5th fret 6th string and get a happy sound which will likey sound better. But when do I play the C major scale?


Edited by Music Fusion (10/07/17 11:53 AM)

Top
#2883849 - 10/08/17 06:08 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
The above is probably a stupid question. I am sensing that the C major scale and basic scales are just tools that you need to have, but I probably asked the question above in a distorted way/

Top
#2883860 - 10/08/17 08:00 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
No such thing as a stupid question...you're right, the scales are just tools to point the way. You get to decide which ones work best and sound best to you. You apply the modes or the pentatonics that get you in the right mood. No one can teach you to improvise. It comes from within.

As a rule of thumb, C F and G will work with a country feel which is usually major

C F and G with 7ths and 9ths will work with a major or minor

C F and G in minors will give you a bluesy feel and works best with minor scales

You have to take it from there...switch in and out of the major and minor modes with your pentatonic 5 positions to get some variety in your scale work. Throw in some chromatic runs and throw in a melody line now and then. These things help me break things up and discover new ideas as I continue to improvise over songs and chord patterns. Keep training with that YT instructor that you found and all of your questions will be answered. Playing over backing tracks will really help too, keep practicing and seeking improvement, and you'll learn some new ways to be creative... cool

ps. yes, all of the scales (to include the major and minor are moveable).


Edited by Larryz (10/08/17 08:12 AM)
Edit Reason: ps.
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

Top
#2883864 - 10/08/17 08:20 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
Admin
10k Club

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 12037
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Part of the issue is the way you are viewing the scales. The C Major scale is only different from any other major scale because of where it sits on the neck. If you slide it up one fret, you have the C# Major scale. Slide it you again and you have the D Major scale, etc. etc. The scales have a certain feel to them because of the order the notes are played in vs. the chords you play over them.

So, now that you have the CMajor/Aminor pattern memorized, let's try something:

Play (record if you can) a C Major chord, just strumming. Now, play a solo using the notes, from the pattern I showed you, using only the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings (to simplify we are leaving out the rest of the pattern). Try to end each little riff on the C, 3rd string 5th fret. You should get an upbeat, almost Country music sound.

Now, do the same thing, with the same notes only playing over an Aminor chord and ending all your riffs on the A 4th string, 7th fret. Now, those same notes sound minor.

So now. Why did one set sound Major and the other Minor? Same notes, right? It boils down to the way scales work.

All major scales follow a pattern of steps. W W H W W W H (whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half). Start on any root notes and follow those steps and you will get a major scale. So, on a piano, if you play from the C it's C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C no sharps or flats because you didn't hit ANY black keys). Now, to give any scale a minor sound (and to make an actual minor scale) all you have to do is drop the third, sixth and seventh notes in that scale. ie. C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb,C) suddenly you have a Minor scale (which, for the record, is W, H, W, W, H, W, W)

Now, in our example on the guitar, The notes, if you start on a C and follow the W W H W W W H, the notes you will hit are C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. So, that is the C Major scale. However, if you start on the A and play it, it has a minor sound. The reason is, the notes in an A minor scale, if you Start on A and play W, H, W, W, H, W, W are A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A. Same notes.

It's the rules about the scales that make the scale sounds. We are simply taking advantage of the fact that notes overlap and allow us to play several different sounding scales, using the same notes.

Need to play over a country song in G? Play the same shape as the A minor scale, up on the 12th fret (root note is 5th string 10th fret) Wanna play some mean blues licks over a song in e minor? Play the exact same scale on the 12th fret. That very same patten can be moved up and down to play over any song in any key.

Modes come into play when you play those same scales over other keys to get even more exotic sounds.

From there, you can learn the same notes, in other patterns. Remember patterns are just a way to help you remember where the notes are on the neck. They can be blended together or moved. It's the notes themselves that matter.
_________________________
Craig
The String Network Forums
My Music
My Pics

Top
#2883865 - 10/08/17 08:33 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2033
Loc: PA
In your example of a tune containing the progession C-F-G, you can play the C Major scale over the entire song, as long as you watch your "targets" within each chord. This is called a "parent scale" and can be played over any "diatonic" progression ("diatonic" means "of or pertaining to a key").
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

Top
Page 5 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  A String, Bluesape, myles_rose