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#2880591 - 09/21/17 06:44 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
The latest thing I did was to repeat the lesson found in the video up top. The one that Larry Z posted.

From that video, I was able to start with the Am pentatonic scale, commencing on the E root, and then add additional notes to play the Em scale.

So, my question is this:

With the Em scale I just learned (which includes more notes that the pentatonic) which keys or chord progressions would I play that over, and how do I know? I guess the trick would be to try to understand it without getting caught up in too many technical terms that i am having a hard time putting my mind towards.

The way I would explain it to myself, if I knew the answers would be as follows:

Playing the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, would ordinarily play well over top of the following chord progressions: ________________

Playing the Em scale, which includes the additional notes, would or (would not?) sound good over top of the same chord progressions stated above.

The reason you would play the Em as opposed to the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, is to ______________________


Can anyone take a kick at filling in these blanks. this may be a good way for me to start getting it.

Thank-you

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GP Island
#2880613 - 09/21/17 07:48 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6016
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
1
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
@d,

I agree in principle with the information in your post with one exception. That being "dim becomes [1 - b3 - b5 - b7]". Actually, this is the formula for the minor7 flat 5 chord (notated m7-5 or m7b5). It is sometimes referred to as the "half-diminished" chord. The formula for the diminished 7th chord is 1-b3-b5-bb7. Yes, it is a double flat and the bb7 is "enharmonically equivalent" to a natural 6th, but is always notated as a double flat 7.

As long as we're teaching this guy we should teach him correctly.
If you want to respond to my post, please do so in English.


You're absolutely correct, Fred & I apologize for skipping the bb7 .
Thanks for clearing that up !
[Note the absence of slang wink ]

2
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I was reading a book just now; more specifically, The Republic by Plato. It's philosophy as I am sure you know.

On page 87, it says:

These harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian and the full toned or bass-Lydian.

Later, it says

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian, they are termed "relaxed", Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones you have left."

Guess I can't get away from this stuff ;-)



Not sure exactly how Plato fits into the timeline but I would point out that between the time of the ancient Greeks, who originally devised the basis of Western music theory, & the developments of more modern ideas in the Middle-Ages the Church musicians of that later time reversed the ideas of the Greeks.
The Greeks defined their scales using pitch lines (tetrachords) that went down in pitch whereas N Euro clerics drew pitch lines, as we do, going up in pitch.
They also got the names of Greek modes turned around, so what was called Ionic in ancient texts may not be the same as what we call Ionic.
[Chk a good reference book for that exact example----as pointed out I leave all the classical nomenclature aside generally]

I'd point out also that the Greek names for scales were derived from specific music styles used in particular areas, so they derived from the actual music played in areas rather than some intellectualities...which leads me back to what I suggested earlier as far as making yer learning single level & easier instead of multi-level & more difficult.

3
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
The latest thing I did was to repeat the lesson found in the video up top. The one that Larry Z posted.

From that video, I was able to start with the Am pentatonic scale, commencing on the E root, and then add additional notes to play the Em scale.

So, my question is this:

With the Em scale I just learned (which includes more notes that the pentatonic) which keys or chord progressions would I play that over, and how do I know? I guess the trick would be to try to understand it without getting caught up in too many technical terms that i am having a hard time putting my mind towards.

The way I would explain it to myself, if I knew the answers would be as follows:

Playing the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, would ordinarily play well over top of the following chord progressions: ________________

Playing the Em scale, which includes the additional notes, would or (would not?) sound good over top of the same chord progressions stated above.

The reason you would play the Em as opposed to the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, is to ______________________


Can anyone take a kick at filling in these blanks. this may be a good way for me to start getting it.

Thank-you



As I will point out for the final time here, yer musical path is made more difficult when you try to make sense of intellectual ideas that derive from the practical effect of musical sounds without getting the experiential understanding of the sounds themselves.

To make that clear, play , explore & notice the effects on you or yer listeners then consider how that works for what you want to communicate.

To seek suggestions for what to play formulaically will work but not well.
It's not going to fit different styles & will never communicate anything better than tracing someone else's drawing.

You may learn that way but it will take longer for you to achieve understanding or communicative expression.
Succinctly, while it seems easier, it will waste yer time in the long run.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2880673 - 09/21/17 11:56 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I agree with what you're saying for the most part. In my journey, from a songwriting perspective, experimenting and wandering about musically served me well. But for decades my solos sounded like train wrecks- often hitting sour notes and getting lost on where to go next. The formulistic approach involving learning the pentatonic scale has helped me greatly in breaking out of that rut. So I was hoping to take it to the next level where I go beyond the pentatonic and start employing other scale variations, without having to necessarily understand the technical terms. I'm not sure if that is even possible.

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#2880694 - 09/21/17 01:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 636
Loc: Virginia
Although this is primarily a piano question, lots are applicable to the guitar. And an easy read;https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/5807/how-to-know-what-notes-go-together-while-improvising-in-a-specific-song

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#2880695 - 09/21/17 01:30 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 636
Loc: Virginia
Although this is primarily a piano question, lots are applicable to the guitar. And an easy read;

https://music.stackexchange.com/question...cific-song-song




Edited by DocPate (09/21/17 05:31 PM)

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#2880739 - 09/21/17 03:11 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
The latest thing I did was to repeat the lesson found in the video up top. The one that Larry Z posted.

From that video, I was able to start with the Am pentatonic scale, commencing on the E root, and then add additional notes to play the Em scale.

So, my question is this:

With the Em scale I just learned (which includes more notes that the pentatonic) which keys or chord progressions would I play that over, and how do I know? I guess the trick would be to try to understand it without getting caught up in too many technical terms that i am having a hard time putting my mind towards.

The way I would explain it to myself, if I knew the answers would be as follows:

Playing the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, would ordinarily play well over top of the following chord progressions: ________________

Playing the Em scale, which includes the additional notes, would or (would not?) sound good over top of the same chord progressions stated above.

The reason you would play the Em as opposed to the Am pentatonic, commencing on the E root, is to ______________________


Can anyone take a kick at filling in these blanks. this may be a good way for me to start getting it.

Thank-you



@ MF, don't think of the scale pattern as an A minor scale, unless you have lined up position 1 with the 1st and 6th string root tones on the 5th fret. Don't think of the scale as an E minor scale, unless you have lined up position 1 with the 1st and 6th string root tones on the 12th fret or on the open strings. The same is true for any key (i.e. G on the 3rd fret, B on the 7th fret, C on the 8th, D on the 10th, etc). When do you use the A minor scale (with position 1 lined up on the 1st and 6th strings at the 5th fret)? Answer: When the song is in the key of A minor. When do you use the E minor scale (with position 1 on the 1st and 6th strings)? Answer: when the song is in the key of E minor). Do the exact same thing when playing/aligning up your 5 Pentatonic minor scale positions. The chord progressions used will all be in the same minor keys. Hope this is helpful. cool


Edited by Larryz (09/21/17 03:12 PM)
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Take care, Larryz

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#2880851 - 09/22/17 06:03 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks for that info. @Larry- yes that explanation makes sense. I'm not going to think of the first pattern of the pentatonic scale as belonging to any particular root note. It belongs to all root notes and it just depends on where you choose to play it.

I also read the link on the piano thread, which was also helpful. It did prompt a question in my mind: Is the minor pentatonic scale the same thing as the blues scale, or is the blues scale different?

BTW..I'm not lazy and I usually run off and google these things and watch youtube videos but for some reason, the discussion here seems to resonate more, or, sometimes simply confirms my understanding of what I gathered by youtube, google.

So thanks for your continued patience and expertise.

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#2880854 - 09/22/17 06:16 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
This is a good video that shows the difference between blues scale and minor penatonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESIyNhOBk9E

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#2880889 - 09/22/17 08:13 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6016
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I agree with what you're saying for the most part. In my journey, from a songwriting perspective, experimenting and wandering about musically served me well. But for decades my solos sounded like train wrecks- often hitting sour notes and getting lost on where to go next.

There's a lesson there.
You either didn't really listen to what you were playing or perhaps had nothing to say.

Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
The formulistic approach involving learning the pentatonic scale has helped me greatly in breaking out of that rut. So I was hoping to take it to the next level where I go beyond the pentatonic and start employing other scale variations, without having to necessarily understand the technical terms. I'm not sure if that is even possible.

I'd say it didn't break you out of a rut as much as make you able to imitate what others did.

If you simply follow a formula it will likely have little to do with the melody of a song or the idea that music may be intended to communicate.

Not everyone has the mindset of an artist or craftsman.
You may be more like a mechanic.
That's not an insult nor a comparison of elites vs mundane but could be worth considering for your long term goals.
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d=halfnote

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#2880893 - 09/22/17 08:16 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
That's a great video Music Fusion! Don't forget to book mark it into your favorites list. You can always come back to it and look up more videos by the same teacher/lesson giver. I'm glad you're sticking with it and the person deserving the most thanks, is you!

The chromatic lead in to the scale notes is a very cool part of the video. Also, don't forget to hit the pause button when the chart comes up. You can freeze frame it and practice the notes on the chart. You will notice on the chart those little numbers within each note (i.e. 1 5 b3 b7 4 b5). Those are the intervals that will also make up your chords! The most important one to me is the b5 (flat 5). It is not in the 5 note pentatonic scale. I always add that note. What the lesson teacher referred to as "the Blue Note". It's what makes the 5 note Pentatonic into a 6 note Pentatonic Blues scale.

Play the Pentatonic scale without the chromatic notes and without the blue note until you get the feel and sound of each of the primary notes. Then add them and listen to the new sounds that come up. You will find when playing without the blue note that when you bend the 4th interval up, you will be adding that blue note b5 interval all the time just naturally. You will also find when making that chromatic run up or down from the 5 to the 4, you will be adding that b5 naturally all the time.

When you switch in and out of the Pentatonic and the Minor (Aeolian) you will be skipping that b5 and you will be using a 7 note scale. This gives you two different scales with different feels/notes/sounds in the same position (as in the videos I posted). After you get them both down, start skipping notes and strings and play them by the sounds you want to hear. The scales just provide the framework(s) of notes to choose from. Keep at it and make it yours. Have fun! cool

Ps. playing and practicing with scales will also develop speed and muscle memory as you get them under your fingers...




Edited by Larryz (09/22/17 09:10 AM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881062 - 09/22/17 07:41 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks again guys. My medium term goal it to play with more fluidity, not being chained to patterns and apply the creative side of my writing and be more adventurous. But, baby steps first.

Again, I take all the perspectives here very seriously and find value in all of them.

Thanks again.

Im sure I'll have more to say as I continue on.

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#2881066 - 09/22/17 09:40 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
A breakthrough (maybe)

SO I watched another video in an attempt to understand this dorian, ionina etc thing. I may have it now. How's this:

If you lay out the notes of the C Major scale, the notes and pattern that they form will remain the same. However, depending on what chords are played behind them, will determine if you are in the Ioanina, Dorian etc mode.

For example, the same notes are played all the time but if you are playing a C chord progression in the background, your notes are said to be in the C Ioanina mode. If, on the other hand, the exact same notes are played with a D chord progression in the background, you are said to be in the dorian mode...etc


Yes?

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#2881075 - 09/22/17 10:39 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Baby Steps MF...the background chords do not determine the modes. You can decide which mode you want to use to play over those background chords. Put on a backing track for country and use the Ionian (major) scale or your Pentatonic major. Put on a Blues backing track and use your Aeolian (minor) scale or your Pentatonic minor. It's best to use a minor scale over a minor chord progression and a major scale over a major chord progression. Sometimes you can use both in the same song...as your Pentatonic minor also works when there are a lot of 7ths and 9ths in a song (don't forget your 4 fret drop concept).

It's good to have the thirst for knowledge. When you learn these 4 scales and apply them up and down the neck, then call up that Dorian training video lesson again as there is always more to discover. The pattern does not change you just shift it. If you want to play in C Dorian, line up the Dorian Mode on the 6th and 1st strings at the 8th fret. Good Luck and Good Hunting! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/22/17 11:03 PM)
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881097 - 09/23/17 05:32 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi Larry. I will keep at it. This is the video that has me confused, because it seems to suggest what i said above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1_6kvCHtQ

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#2881111 - 09/23/17 07:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Music Fusion, the reason it has elements of what you suggested above is he is explaining how to play the same pattern in the major (Ionian)scale and emphasize the C root, then the D root, and you will find you can use the same framework for the E F G A B as well. Why? All 7 notes are contained in each of the frames/segments of each mode/scale. Each of the 7 mode sections can be found in the Ionian and Aeolian scales and in the order he described. In his "SFS" method, he is going to concentrate the next lesson in the major and/or the relative minor scales. He is a good teacher with what looks like a good program/system and I will refer back to some of his other videos as well, as I am always learning too LOL! I like the way he showed the harmony concept using a single note with several chords...

Understand, that he is introducing you to the whole big picture along with his method of attack and it's going to sound complex at first. He will break it down and as you get more into it, You will discover many new things and all of them will help you play better and add to your ability to improvise. I can describe many things and my method of attack for you too, but it will sound confusing at the beginning stages. My suggestions have already been made. Many of which are in his video. I started out with the 7 modes/scales and had a hard time making them useful in my lead work (he will help you with this). Then I learned the Pentatonic Scales and all sorts of new doors opened for me in the 5 frameworks (similar to the 7 mode frameworks of which I only use 5! I skip the Locrian and the Phrygian modes/scales). When I was getting to sound repetitive using my Pentatonic scales, I went back and started putting the major and minor modes/scales back into my arsenal as I understood the shifting concepts. The shifting is done for each key and can be done over each chord in a chord pattern as well...I'll leave it at that and wish you good luck! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/23/17 06:04 PM)
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881275 - 09/24/17 10:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
One thing for sure, I'm not giving up. I think I will see the other lessons that gentleman offers, as ihe seems to be a very clear way of presneting things.Maybe between what I learn through that, and through the advice here, something will clcik.

I am still struggling with what a mode is as compared to a scale and how this dorian, ioanin etc relates to all this. I know everyone has tried to explain it in many different ways, but maybe I'm dense about this stuff. But I will keep at it.

Thanks to all. I'm still trying.

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#2881284 - 09/24/17 10:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Your nowhere near dense Music Fusion. If you can play the 5 positions (notice I didn't call them scales or modes) of the Pentonic Scales (now I did call them scales) and think of them as modes instead of postions, you'll start to see there is no difference. There is a difference when you pick a starting point at anyone of the 12 chromatic notes/frets on your guitar. I suggest you pick the starting point on the 1st and 6th strings for the key you want to play in. Now play each scale up and down the neck. Across the neck using the frameworks in an approximate 4 or 5 fret span, and along the neck using each string...

So it's just a matter of terms when you start wanting to define things like the 7 scale modes. 1. The Ionian=major, 2. The Dorian=Rock, 3. The Phrygian=Flamenco, 4. The Lydian=Jazz, 5. The Mixolydian=Classical, 6. The Aeolian=Minor, 7. The Locrian=Folk. These are the Greek names and the feel that can be associated with each mode. They are all scales and you can name them as above or change them to whatever you like. Or, like the Pentatonic Scales you can call them position 1, position 2, position 3, etc. So if you like the position 2. Dorain=Rock scale mode in the key of C, start it on the 1st and 6th strings on the 8th fret.

Keep following along with your new found instructor. He also teaches Pentatoncs. I know you will stick with it just by reading what you are posting. Try not to absorb too much too soon and [pick] a starting point...hope this is helpful... cool


Edited by Larryz (09/24/17 11:21 AM)
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881302 - 09/24/17 12:07 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thank-you for the encouragement. To recap what you said:

I know the 5 pentatonic minor shapes and can move them up and down the neck. You've suggested we think of these moveable shapes as modes- which makes sense to me.

I also realize that if I play the first shape on the low E string on fret 5, I am in the Am pentatonic.

If I play that same shape on the 12th fret, I am using the same shape, but I am in D.

So, now I am wondering which of the following is true (if any)

1) If I use the second shape of the pentatonic shapes, I would be in Dorian mode (starting on the 8th fret)

OR

2) If I move the Am pentatonic shape to the 8th fret, I'd be in Dorian mode.

I think it's #1 but I'm not certain.

by the way, my name is Charles.


Edited by Music Fusion (09/24/17 12:09 PM)

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#2881314 - 09/24/17 01:50 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Charles, forgive me if I don't remember your name as I refer to everyone by their chosen call signs. I might do as you did and shorten Music Fusion to MF. But I'm still glad to meet you and I go by Larry or Larryz or LZ whatever you choose...if you can find a book at your music store on Pentatonics and Scale modes, it will help you follow along with those things the YT teacher is sharing with you and provide reference material. You may also be able to find a local teacher in your area. After all this discussion, you are well on the way to knowing what book, teacher, YT Teachers, DVD's, etc. to continue with your quest. It is a good one and I don't want to lead you off base or confuse you. But, I will share some of my thoughts with you as to my attack on the subject(s).

So here are some things to consider:

1. If you play what you are calling the position 1. Pentatonic A minor on the low E (6th string) and move that exact same shape up to the 12th fret, think of it as playing E minor (not D).

2. If you move the exact same Postion 1. A minor Pentatonic to the 8th fret, think of it as playing in C minor (not the Dorian mode).

3. You can use this Pentatonic framework as your 1st position and your starting position to play in any of the above minor keys or to play over any of those minor chords. This framework of notes will line up with the Aeolian minor scale.

4. There are only 2 modes to worry about in the Pentatonic frameworks major and minor. My suggestion is you do the same with the other scale modes and start with just learning and practicing the major and minor scale modes. For now, think of dividing the fret board with the Pentatonic positions in the same way the major and minor modes divide it. These are interchangeable. Don't try and equate the others (like the Dorian) as you will get to that later down the road.

5. So now for the 4 fret drop confusing part that you can figure out or have said you have already figured out. The 1st position Pentatonic minor that you already know as starting on the low E at the 5th fret for A minor with your index finger, is the 5th Position of the relative Pentatonic major scale which you can start with your pinky finger. The 1st position of the relative major Pentatonic would start on 8th fret as C major (it would be the 2nd position of your minor Pentatonic scale). You shift them depending on whether you're playing in the major or minor.

6. When you get that concept down with the Pentatonic scales, do the same thing with the major and minor scales in the same frameworks.

Then go from there and learn from that YT teacher you have chosen...
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2881317 - 09/24/17 02:23 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks Larry. I just finished Lesson two from that link, and I just read the comemnt you posted. I feel like I'm getting closer to understanding. The good news is that i am able to fairly easily memorize the material and play it. I am forcing myself to do a lesson and then spend the rest of the day parctising it, so that i don't go too fast and forget it all. Interspersed, i am reading this thread. So between both of these sources, it is starting to come together.

By the way, I meant to type E on my previous posted and accidently typed D. Thank-you for pointing out that I cited the wrong root note while being in the 1st minor pentatonic position on the 12th fret.

As I say, I used to aboslutely HATE trying to study this stuff, but the fact that I am now looking forward to fighting my way through this, and the help I am getting here and through the videos, is like turning a major corner for me.

Back at it later tonight or tomorrow.



Edited by Music Fusion (09/24/17 02:23 PM)

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#2881326 - 09/24/17 04:43 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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Yup. Larry is right. Best to focus on the starting stuff.

So:
Am scale=

-------------------------------------------5--
----------------------------------5--6--8-----
-------------------------4--5--7--------------
-------------------5--7-----------------------
----------5--7--8-----------------------------
-5--7--8--------------------------------------

Remember that pattern. See how the 5th note on the sixth string is an A? That is the note we can use to tell which scale we are playing. So, play the same pattern but starting on the 3rd fret and it is a G minor scale. Or start it on the 10th fret and it's a D minor scale.

Using a mode, we can also quickly learn the major scales, with the same pattern.

C Major scale:


-------------------------------------------5--7--8--
----------------------------------5--6--8-----------
-------------------------4--5--7--------------------
-------------------5--7-----------------------------
-------3--5--7--8-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------

Same pattern, but we started in a different spot. Now, when played over a C major chord, it will have a major sound.

If you play the same pattern, starting on the A# (A string, 1st fret), and play the same pattern we used for the G minor, we will get the A# major scale.

etc. etc. et al
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Craig
The String Network Forums
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#2881327 - 09/24/17 04:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
A String Administrator Offline
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Basically, two scales for the price of one. Want to change the key, just move that same pattern up or down the neck.
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#2881484 - 09/25/17 11:28 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
@ Astring, Cool stuff!

@ Fusion, I'll bet you will enjoy spending a lot of time on studying this stuff now! Don't forget to take a break from it as it will consume you LOL! I go for months at a time away from this stuff as it is just music theory. But, I always warm up with a few scales and improvisation. In between my music theory week study, I try out the new concepts and ideas over backing tracks. Then I know what really works for me. I do not use the 7 modes, I only use 2 and I equate them with the 2 Pentatonic major and minor. Everything you are searching for is contained in these basics. I can use the other 5 modes at will at anytime I want to...anyway, the main thing is to have fun with it! You may have hated this stuff before, but I'll bet you are going to fall in love it now. Take it easy...Baby steps, get one thing down at a time...good luck with it! thu
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Take care, Larryz

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#2881615 - 09/26/17 04:23 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi Craig. Larry and others. Thanks again for the info. Here's where I am:

1. Last night I went through lesson 2b of that online video guy. In that lesson, he shows how to move a particular A based shape across the entire neck. I think I've got that down now. He calls it the A Alionian .

2. I also rehearsed my minor pentatonic scales and its five shapes up and down the neck, ascending and descending on each shape, so i don't forget those as I learn new things.

3. I remind myself the four steps back thing. So, I remind myself that moving from the Am pentatonic shape in its first position (6th string, 5th fret), back four frets results in my being in a major pentatonic solo mode (I believe in the G Major key?)

4. Then I started playing the two scales that Craig posted Am and C Major. (just to be clear, the heavier strings are at the bottom of those diagrams right? So the low E string is at the bottom and the high E is at the top- right?)

5. Today- if I find time...I plan to keep playing the scales Craig posted till I memorize them and perhaps venture into lesson 3 online on that SFS method.

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#2881647 - 09/26/17 07:15 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
The next lesson online is not easy. Although it is worth struggling through. What he is doing is taking a shape (mode?) that he previously taught, and showing how to play in Locrian, dorian etc. This is something I am keenly interested in, but I am very quickly starting to appreciate why it is difficult to explain.

I am going to take my time on this next lesson because it can unlock a lot of thjings and I suspect that after I finally "get it", I'm going to look back on all the good advice I am getting on this thread and realize how blind I was ;-)

The journey continues...stay tune...in any mode you wish lol

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#2881663 - 09/26/17 08:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Well...I've gone through the next lessons which took me from Ionian, Locrian , dorian and one other. I am starting to get it. Rather than memorize all the notes, I memorized the methodology for playing all of these modes. So, my next steps are as follows:

Put the memorization cited above into practical use. In other words, it's not enough to know how to get to the modes in terms of notes, but actually practice getting to them by playing.

I also downloaded backing tracks by mode, that this guy makes available on his site. So after I do the step above, I'm actually going to play tot he backing tracks.

I am tempted to play to the backing tracks right away, but I know if I do that, I'll skip the important step of becoming fluid with playing the notes first.

THEN....I am going to circle back to the scales that Craig posted.



Edited by Music Fusion (09/26/17 08:37 AM)

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#2881670 - 09/26/17 08:51 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
A String Administrator Offline
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Yes. Indeed the lower line is the 6th string. Bascially, that is a pattern. When you play it, it is either the Major C or the Minor A scale (depending on where you start and the chord you are playing over). Not to convolute things, but that same pattern is also ALL of the modes in different keys. But don't get into that, yet.

The thing to keep in mind is, once memorized, you can slide that scale up and down the neck to get ANY key in Major or minor.

So, that same pattern, with all the notes shifted up one fret, will give you the A#minor and C# Major scales. Shift them up another fret and now you have the B minor and D Major scales.

There is a lot of theory to learn, but for now, just learning this will allow you to play over 90% of songs. Then, you can worry about modes and other scales. Keep in mind, there are only 12 notes and you can get thousands of different sounds with those 12 notes. Patterns are just a way for us to remember where those notes are. It's called "playing inside the box". Once you are comfortable with the "box", then you can look for the same notes, up and down the neck. So, instead of going to the next string, maybe slide up two frets on the same string, etc. etc. This will help you to branch out.

For the record, there is one other VERY commonly used pattern. The one I showed you is the most common. The second one is amazing too. Same scales (Major and minor), but the way the notes are organized allows you to get different riffs. Anyway...that's for another time.
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#2881676 - 09/26/17 09:27 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
Hi Charles, yeah all of your scale charts (to include Astrings) have the low E 6th string on the bottom and the high E 1st string on the top...

When you play the 1st position of the A minor Aeolian scale across the neck starting at the 5th fret 6th string, try to notice that it contains all of the same notes that make up the 1st position (box or framework) for your Pentatonic Minor scale. Play them both at this location...

Now put your 4 fingers on each of the 4 frets and you'll find your index finger is on the 5th fret and your little finger is on the 8th fret (4 frets up). So, you'll find that the relative major of A minor is C major. Now, don't move your A minor Pentatonic scale position and strum an A minor chord then play your scale and keep doing that for awhile. Now instead of strumming an A minor chord, strum a C major chord and play the exact same scale at the exact same position. Keep doing that and you'll hear how just using your imagination you can change from a major to a minor scale using the exact same notes! The 1st position A minor Pentatonic scale is the 5th position of the C major Pentatonic scale.

Ps. We were both posting at the same time Astring LOL!

cool



Edited by Larryz (09/26/17 12:24 PM)
Edit Reason: sp.
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#2881783 - 09/26/17 07:45 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks

The good news is that I have made some pretty good progress on the different modes (Lorian, Ioanian, Aelonian etc etc). I can actually match the mode patterns against the backing tracks provided on that video tutorial and it actually sounds good. It's a bit tedious running through all the modes shapes across different parts of the neck and remembering to make sure that the "tonic" is placed on the root note you want to launch from, but I'm getting the hang of that.

But here's my point of induced confusion ( probably because I'm trying to understand too many things at once.)

So I know the minor pentatonic scales and the 4 fret shift.

I now understand these dorian, lorian etc modes and how to move them around the fretboard and how to make sure I am aligned with the backing tracks provided.

And Craig has provided the Am and C major scales that I still have to get to and incorporate.

BUT, here's my point of confusion.

All the things mentioned above are really cool, and I can see how they can yield some very good results.

But stepping away from all the fancy stuff I've learned as mentioned above (well, maybe fancy to just me), I take myself back to a simple chord progression

D G A D

If someone where to play that using a pop/rockabilly type of feel, do I:

Use the minor pentatonic shape starting at the 6th string 12th fret

OR

Do I use the 4 step rule and start the minor pentatonic shape on the 6th string 8th fret

OR

Do I pick one of the dorian, Aoelian, Lydian etc scales and position the tonic note on the
6th string 12th fret and play that

I guess what I am saying, is that I am learning so many routes, that I am wondering how to determine which way to go with a simple chord progression such as D G A D

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#2881793 - 09/26/17 10:56 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10117
Loc: Northern California
The 6th string at the 12 fret is E. Do you see an E chord in the D G A D pattern? So why do you want to start your scales with an E which puts you in the key of E? The song is in the key of D, so pick D as your starting point located on the 6th string at the 10th fret. Determine if it's a minor key or a major key. If it's country it's most likely in a major key, so start with D major. You can start whatever scale or mode you want to play in the Key of D, going up or going down, from that starting point on the 10th fret. Line up all of your scales on the 1st and 6th string for the key you wish to play in before you begin...

If you will stop taking all those different routes, you will learn the basics with less confusion. Pick what you said you already know (i.e. the pentatonic major and minor). You can stay in the line up for the key of D or you can shift the exact same scale pattern being played across the neck, with each chord when it's played. (i.e. D on the 6th string 10th fret, G on the 6th string 3rd fret, A on the 6th string 5th fret). Try and get familiar with just the major and minor scales. Then add the other modes if you wish. The 4 fret drop explained above in the key of C, works with any key to include the key of D.

Practice over a country backing track in the key of D major (you can find a ton of them on YouTube). If you want to use one of the modes, line it up the same way. Some of them will not fit in with a country tune. A Pentatonic major or the Ionian (major) will work over just about any simple chord patterned country tune. cool





Edited by Larryz (09/26/17 11:01 PM)
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