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#2879454 - 09/15/17 10:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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#2879461 - 09/15/17 11:11 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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#2879468 - 09/15/17 11:53 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks again. For the moment, i'm going to not comment on the dorian and modes stuff because, although I think I'm getting it, I may not be and may end up confusing myself. But I will have questions about that later.

The new posts above were extremely helpful. But I have a follow up question:

I have learned the pentatonic minor shapes from the A (fifth position on the 6th string) up towards to bridge of the guitar. So therefore, I can play all the shapes from the fifth fret to the 15th fret, which consists of 5 different shapes. , but I did not realize there are shapes to learn in the opposite direction ( from the 5th position back to to the nut of the guitar.

What are those shapes? I've been working from a chart that shows the minor pentatonic scale from the fifth fret upwards to the 15th fret, but does not show any shapes from the 5th fret back to the nut.

Thank-you

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#2879469 - 09/15/17 11:55 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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bTW- that's a great link to learn the dorian and other scale stuff, but I'm not ready for it just yet. But I bookmarked it.

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#2879471 - 09/15/17 11:58 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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I think I answered my own question. This page seems to show all the
shapes

http://www.freeguitarsource.com/Minor_Pentatonic_Scales/F_Minor_Pentatonic_Scale.htm

l

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#2879508 - 09/15/17 02:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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One thing to understand is, shapes are just guidelines to help you find notes, quickly. In the end, all the notes are available, in a few octaves, all over the neck. Get to know where those notes are within the scale you are working on.

A great scale to start with IS the A minor scale on the fifth fret. But from there, learn where those same notes are, outside of that box. It will help you attach to other sections, up and down the neck and that, in turn, will aid in finding new riffs and new combinations of notes for your solos.

It is a tedious task but very rewarding. Take it in bite sized bits. Remember, the box is only a guide to get you started. Break free from that box to really beef up your solos.
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#2879509 - 09/15/17 02:35 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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So..in your case...Play the a minor on the fifth fret and it's octave on the 17th. Then, find ways to connect those two, in between. Use the shapes to help but, in the end, try connecting them in different ways.

Also, remember that moving those same shapes up or down changes the root note so that same set of patterns on the fifth, that gives you and A minor, will give you a D minor if you play it on the 10th (for example).
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#2879579 - 09/15/17 09:33 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thanks again. I see the value of finding your way around different notes, outside the box and have been naturally finding these things. For example, sometimes when i am in the bottom part of a box, it is easy for me to see the next bottom notes of the next box over, go there, and then ascend up to the root note.

Now the harder question: I looked at the link in which you seem to nicely lay out the different scales Dorian, Ionian etc). But I am getting confused as to what these scales are trying to teach me, as opposed to what these pentatonic patterns are teaching me.

I am seeing fairly clearly how moving the shape and knowing the root notes, determines how the shape matches up to the keys, but this dorian stuff seems really different from that.

I don't know how to really ask the question. I guess it comes down to, I don't yet see how the dorian, ioanin etc stuff is applied in my playing.

Can you take a kick at explaining?

Thank-you

BTW- I am zooming up and down the neck with the shapes from the nut all the way to right up[ the neck and the soloing sounds great!!! Thanks for all the tips.What this forum has done for me, I couldn't get from days of watching youtube videos.


Edited by Music Fusion (09/16/17 05:59 AM)

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#2879656 - 09/16/17 10:12 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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These are all static scales, within the same box. IMO, not a great way to understand modes but more a way to memorize them.

For me, I learned them by playing the A minor scale on the 5th fret. Then, I'd hit the C and play the same scale, trying to return to the C as my root note to get a C major scale. Same A Minor scale, but now, it is magically a C Major scale. Then, I'd move on to the next note in the scale, the D. Each note, in the same scale, when used as a root note, will give you a VERY different feel and sound. Those are the modes with the root note you choose as the mode's root note/name. The mode you are playing is determined by the number from the scale. So first note, second note, third note, etc. etc.

Play around with that. Use power chords so major and minor aren't an issue and then try to return to the new root note, but still playing the A minor scale on the 5th. You'll hear the difference in each mode and how it affects the sound. Some will sound major, some will sound minor, some will have a middle Eastern sound. It's amazing how the same notes can change so much.

Once you understand the differences, you can see that those charts I posted, are just the same notes, in that location, for the different modes. THEN, you can try memorizing those patterns, if you want to. Or, stick to using the A Minor scale, on the appropriate fret, for the mode you are trying to play, until you are more comfortable with it.
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#2879659 - 09/16/17 10:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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If this helps...
-C Major scale is: "C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C"
-D Dorian mode is: "D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D"
-E Phrigian mode is: "E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E"
-F Lydian mode is: "F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F"
-G Mixolydian mode is: "G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G"
etc. etc. etc.

Same notes but starting on a different root note. The sound difference, when played over the root note's chord, is amazing.

**Warning*** Modes can become addictive!
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#2879665 - 09/16/17 10:34 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
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Sorry...one more, in case I'm doing a bad job of explaining...

When you play the A minor scale on the 5th, look at the notes. They are: "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A" Same notes as the C Major scale only starting on the 6th note (A being the sixth note in the C Major scale). This make the A minor scale a mode. Specifically, the Aeolian/Minor mode.

We view it (The A minor scale) as it's own thing, separate from the C scale, but it IS a mode, theoretically speaking.

Use the modes to help you find new sounds, but don't THINK of them as modes when you play. Think about them as their own scales in their own keys.
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#2879673 - 09/16/17 11:36 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi Craig

Thanks again. I think i am starting to understand how moving the scales around the neck, results in some very different sounds. For example, I was trying to solo over the progression D G A D D

I could never get all the notes to sound in tune. So, now, applying what I learned here, I decided to use the Am pentatonic scale on the 5th fret. Now, if I understood it correctly, moving the scale 4 frets back from the D position, will give me the "happier" sounding solo. Which is precisely what happened when i soloed there. if i solo the same shape in the D position, it sounds sad. Does that make sense? Both solos work but on the 5th fret, it's happier sound than on the D root.

I still can't say I am understanding the dorian, lydian etc stuff, but I'll keeo reading and re0reading,. Sometimes it doesn't click right away.

by the way, I am also in Ontario- Hamilton.

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#2879676 - 09/16/17 12:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Not too far from me. I used to teach at Lakeshore music, now Long And McQuades, in Burlington.

Keep messing with it. Mainly try playing the A minor scale over different chords, making sure you end on the different root notes of the chord you are playing (So if you are playing a D, make play the A minor scale but try to always come back to the D note).

If you have questions, ask away. Myself or one of the other VERY knowledgeable folks here, are always happy to help out!
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#2879677 - 09/16/17 12:34 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hey Craig:

Thanks!!! Burlington and L & M? I go there a lot. I actually live in Stoney Creek so now I go to the Centennial Parkway location, but I went to Burlington for a long time.

Small world isn't it?

Yes, some very good people here and sometimes it's a lot easier learning by being able to ask questions.

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#2879773 - 09/17/17 06:58 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks:

I really like the fact that I am now familiar with the pentatonic shapes all over the neck and how moving them, results in different sounds.

But because I am getting stuck on understanding dorian, etc, I am wondering if I need to step back. I am wondering if I should first go back and learn basic scales: like what makes up a C scale? etc. That might help me understand this dorian stuff in the future. Does that sound like a good next step and if so, how many basic scales are there to learn?

Thank-you


Edited by Music Fusion (09/17/17 06:59 AM)

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#2879790 - 09/17/17 08:53 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Learning scales is a good step. However, understanding modes is an odd thing. You see...modes are more about a feel from a scale and how using the same notes can bring around other "scales".

As I mentioned, the C major scale is "C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C" (no sharps or flats in this one). This gives you the common "Do, Re, Mi" scale when played over the C major chord and focusing on the C root note when playing solos.

Now, if I play the same scale, starting on the A so I'm playing "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A", you can see I'm still playing the same notes. However, if I play them over an A minor chord and focus on the A as my root note in my solo, I suddenly get an A minor scale (also known as the Aeolian mode).

Why? Simple. The A major scale is:
A, B, C#, D, E, F#, and G#.
If you play those notes over an A major chord, you will get the A major scale. However, as you can see, playing no sharps or flats, ie "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A" we have flattened the C, F and G. When you take a major scale and flatten the third, sixth and seventh notes, you suddenly get a minor sound to your, once happy sounding, scale. But, because the C scale already has those notes, if we apply the C scale to an A minor chord, we get that same, minor sound. This is called a mode of the C scale.

Other modes are revealed by playing the same notes but focusing on different starting points, over different chords. Any time you do that, it's called a Mode of the original scale.

I'm not sure how much you know about scales but, sit down at a piano. Start on a c and go up following these rules:
whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half

Those rules will always make the major scale, no matter what note you start on (or one of the modes). You can see, at the piano, following those rules, you never hit any black keys (#/b), it's all white keys.

Now, start on a G and follow the same rules. You'll see that you almost made it through with all white keys but had to hit one black key. The F#. So, the Major scale in G is: "G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G".

Knowing this, try starting on the 6th note in that scale, the E. So now you are playing:
"E,F#,A,B,C,D,E".
Suddenly, you are playing an E minor scale or, in this case the E Aeolian mode.

Each scale, following those steps, will give you more or less sharps and flats because of the way those black keys on the keyboard are laid out.

One other thing to mention (And a great way to get used to changing sounds in modes), is to play around with a thing called a "Relative Minor". That the Minor scale you get in a Major scale when you start on the sixth note.

Back to the original scale, C. Because starting on the sixth note in the scale give you an A minor mode, A minor is the relative minor to C. Try this exercise:

Hit the C chord twice and then noodle around on the fifth fret using the A minor scale shape. Kind of a major, country feel? Now, hit the A minor chord twice and play in the same area. Suddenly a minor feel. Try switching back and forth between the two chords and the same scale. The difference in sounds is due to the modes of the scale bringing up different sounds with the same notes, due to their relationships to the chords.

Hope this all helps and isn't a bunch of confusing nonsense!
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#2879792 - 09/17/17 08:57 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Hi folks: . . . how many basic scales are there to learn?

Thank-you


@Music Fusion - First of all, forgive me for truncating your post in this quote, but wanted to get to the main point. Long answer forthcoming . . .

First and foremost, Scales, in and of themselves, are not Music: Scales are about the relationships among Notes within Music.

So, how many Scales? In simplest terms, there are 12 Tones, thus 12 Major and 12 Minor Scales. There are also 7 Modes, sometimes referred to as "Church Modes", which can also begin on any of the 12 Tones, although the Major and Minor Scales are already incorporated into those 7, so let's say there are 5 additional Modes to learn for each Tone, on top of the original 24, and 12x5 = 60, so we're up to 84. We haven't even gotten into Ascending and Descending Minor Scales, or Exotic Scales, yet . . .

Put that way, it sounds daunting, so let's take a step way back. Try playing the "A" Minor Scale, starting with the open 5th String, playing solely on the 5th String, until you reach the Octave on the 12th Fret. If you play the exact same pattern of notes on the open D/4th String, you will be playing a D Minor Scale; same thing works with each of the open strings. Congratulations, you've just learned 5 Minor Scales, by really learning just one.

My point is that it's not just about learning and memorizing all these Scales as if they were separate Mathematical formulas - (which they are, but . . .) - but learning the relationships of the Notes within each Scale, as well as the placement of those notes on the neck. If I may, I think this is what A String was trying to point out, as well. Learn where all the notes are, and you can find, and play, any Scale, anywhere on the neck you like.

IMHO, it will be more useful to you to learn the notes on the neck, and approach Scales as tools for applying that knowledge, rather than cramming your head with Scales that you're not applying to your own playing. You can spend a great deal of time and mental energy memorizing Scales, without learning a single tune, but learning some good Music will help you to see how the Scales are applied in creating Music. Best of luck, and most of all, have fun . . .


Edited by Winston Psmith (09/17/17 08:58 AM)
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#2879793 - 09/17/17 09:00 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
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Sorry, it seems A String and I were responding at the same time . . .
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#2879813 - 09/17/17 11:29 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
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+1 Brother Winston, I started learning to improvise using a book Teach Yourself Improvisation that taught all of the modes using a pattern of dots for 84 guitar necks LOL! (12 chromatic root tones going up or down times 7 modes for a total of 84). It was daunting. So I gave up trying to memorize all of the modes and concentrated on the Aeolian minor and Ionian major scales and learned the relative minor/major relationship. I still wasn't successful in putting the other scale modes into practice.

Then I found another book by another author Teach Yourself Lead Guitar (this was prior to YouTube and books with CD's, DVD's, Tapes, etc.). This book was basically how to use 5 notes instead of 7 and got me going on the Pentatonic blues scales using the relative minor/major concept. When I started to study the relationship between the two books, I put the major and minor scales back into my improvisation study. I then learned that all of the other modes (to include the pentatonic scales) are contained in these two major and minor mode patterns, along with all of the intervals that make up the chords.

So the doors started opening with the keys to unlock the doors...

@ Music Fusion, I would suggest using your Pentatonic scales first and learning the 5 sections up and down the neck in any key starting with your root tone on the 6th and 1st string using major and minor Pentatonic scales. Then instead of learning the Dorian, start with the Aeolian (minor) and Ionian (major) scale modes. Align them with your Pentatonic scales and switch in and out. You will find that you already know all of the modes including the Dorian by just starting that mode on the root tone (6th and 1st strings) and following the same pattern of dots. The dots/charts for the Pentatonic scales can be found by just typing "Pentatonic Scales" (and the others search like "Ionian scale guitar") into your browser...This was just my method. There are as many others as there are guitar players LOL! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/17/17 02:58 PM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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#2879819 - 09/17/17 12:30 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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Nicholas Slonimsky wrote a book in 1947 titled "Thesaurus of Scales & Melodic Patterns", which lays out every possible mathematical combination of notes which can make a scale. There are many hundreds, though not all are musically useful. It was hugely influential on Zappa, Coltrane, Cage, Holdsworth, & others. If you're really interested in scales, as a thought exercise as well as advanced compositional/performance training, this would would be essential reading.
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#2879970 - 09/18/17 09:04 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I am one of those guitar players who has been guilty of not learning my scales and hoping that my solos miraculously fall into place. I have since decided to learn them and I started with the Minor pentatonic scale. So far, I ave learned it in 4 out of the 5 positions on the neck.

My question is, what chord patterns can I play it over top of? For example, will it work on a song that has a basic A, D, and E pattern? So basically, what chord progressions will it fit with?

Thank-you


I have skipped over all replies to bring you this vital news.

You are taking the entirely wrong tack in this.

Western music theory follows the history of musical development.
It does not & has never been the rules for playing music.
To follow only what theory tells you is to forever chase the tails of innovators.

The answer to yer question, therefore, is to play what sounds right to you in the exact context of any particular situation.
Playing a commercial NVille Taylor Swift session will call for something diff from a goth death metal track.

Play the music, not yer idea of what the rule is.

If you want some guidance look at the tonic & extrapolate from there....so the Dorian would be the same scale as the standard major but starting on the 2...so a minor scale with b7.

Music's much more simple than many either try to make it or get caught up in.

Use yer ear & hear what you want to achieve.

THAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS TO IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---------------------

If that seems too simple, review what A String & Winston said.
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#2880071 - 09/18/17 04:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
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Along a similar vein, d. My posts were meant to answer questions that he asked, as well as give him to tools to hear the modes and what they meant so he could use them without the confines of scales.
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#2880166 - 09/19/17 06:34 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String
Along a similar vein, d. My posts were meant to answer questions that he asked, as well as give him to tools to hear the modes and what they meant so he could use them without the confines of scales.


My thought, as well. Scales are to Music what a pile of construction material is to a House.
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#2880174 - 09/19/17 07:10 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
Music Fusion Offline
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Hi folks:

Rest assured that I have read every word written here and have taken everyone's advice very seriously and to heart and am very grateful. Just a few things:

I am not really a solo guitar guy. My primary obsession is songwriting and I have written over 200 songs, many of which have been published; one of which has appeared on an American television program. I am not mentioning this to "brag" at all, but just for context as to my focus. In writing these songs,in a way, it was advantageous for me not to know any of the rules. All of my writing has been through feel and stumbling about, But it worked, for me anyway.

Having said that, I've always respected and admired those who truly understand how music works (that would be all of you, from the looks of it). So I am circling back and trying to enhance my knowledge, respect and appreciation of music by learning from those who understand it.

Now..back to the details:

I am quoting a post here and responding to it:

@ Music Fusion, I would suggest using your Pentatonic scales first and learning the 5 sections up and down the neck in any key starting with your root tone on the 6th and 1st string using major and minor Pentatonic scales.

This is what I have been doing, and believe that i am finally there, in that I can play all the pentatonic shapes throughout the entire neck, and have learned how moving the shapes back 4 frets makes the scale sound happy rathe than sad. I am alos doing these shapes ascending and descending.

Then instead of learning the Dorian, start with the Aeolian (minor) and Ionian (major) scale modes. Align them with your Pentatonic scales and switch in and out.

That's where I am stuck despite herculean efforts on this thread by Craig and others to help me. It's just a roadblock I presently have in my mind that i can't seem to break out of. So, if someone can help me know how to do what is suggested above, that would be very helpful. I am trying- trust me- but can't seem to break through

As an aside, here is an example of a song I wrote. http://www.musicfusion.us/crawlzep.mp3

It's in the style of Led Zeppelin and it's a blues song. That's definitely not me playing lead guitar. If it was, i wouldn't be asking all these questions ;-)

Thanks again to all!!!!!!

MF










Edited by Music Fusion (09/19/17 07:10 AM)

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#2880184 - 09/19/17 07:39 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
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Thanks for listening to my comments Music Fusion...so take that song clip (which is very good by the way!). It's a nice little blues which tells me you want to use a minor scale as the framework for your house building materials. Always good to ask questions and learn to use those materials too BTW. To me, the scales are more like the architectural plans for building the house LOL!

Now, find the key while your music clip is playing by moving up and down the neck with the 1st and 6th string. You'll hear it is in the key of D starting on the 6th (or 1st) string at the 10th fret. Blues and Rock like the minor keys/scales and country likes the majors which gives you the idea for feel. Now play your Pentatonic (minor) scale 1st position beginning with your 1st finger on the 10th fret on the 6th string, using your music clip as your backing track until you feel comfortable. Stay within the 4 fret span. Now play your Aeolian (minor) 1st position scale within the same 4 fret span but you'll have to add one note on the 3rd string 9th fret located just outside the 4 fret span...the Aeolian 1st position contains all of the notes of your Pentatonic 1st position. As you go up or down through each of the 5 Pentatonic positions, you will notice there is the same relationship with the Aeolian scale positions...don't forget that Marty YouTube clip for the chord stuff later down the line. Good Luck with it! cool





Edited by Larryz (09/19/17 08:14 AM)
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#2880242 - 09/19/17 10:51 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
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@ MF, Here it is in E Minor using the same exact scales as the D minor described above starting on the 6th string at the 12th fret:




ps. he's adding that extra note in the minor scale (outside the 4 fret span of the pentatonic) by stretching up to it on the 4th string instead of the way I do it by playing it on the 3rd string. He plays it and accents it on the 3rd string later. It works either way...
cool


Edited by Larryz (09/19/17 11:02 AM)
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#2880484 - 09/20/17 03:01 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

..back to the details:

I am quoting a post here and responding to it:

@ Music Fusion, I would suggest using your Pentatonic scales first and learning the 5 sections up and down the neck in any key starting with your root tone on the 6th and 1st string using major and minor Pentatonic scales.

This is what I have been doing, and believe that i am finally there, in that I can play all the pentatonic shapes throughout the entire neck, and have learned how moving the shapes back 4 frets makes the scale sound happy rathe than sad. I am alos doing these shapes ascending and descending.

Then instead of learning the Dorian, start with the Aeolian (minor) and Ionian (major) scale modes. Align them with your Pentatonic scales and switch in and out.

That's where I am stuck despite herculean efforts on this thread by Craig and others to help me. It's just a roadblock I presently have in my mind that i can't seem to break out of. So, if someone can help me know how to do what is suggested above, that would be very helpful. I am trying- trust me- but can't seem to break through

As an aside, here is an example of a song I wrote. http://www.musicfusion.us/crawlzep.mp3

It's in the style of Led Zeppelin and it's a blues song. That's definitely not me playing lead guitar. If it was, i wouldn't be asking all these questions ;-)

Thanks again to all!!!!!!

MF


Thanks for the track link.
You clearly have a grasp of music.

Here's what you should do, I think.

Take yer pick of valid instructional reference materials & keep that as a technical ref.
Then ignore the terms for various scales/modes til you need to learn them.
Instead, start thinking abt all of that in terms of the basic maj scale & also ignore the pitch names & consider them in terms of scale degrees [1-2-3-4-5-6-7-octave].

That will reduce the extraneous info to what the notes sound like & allow you to focus on their sound & the relationships they have to each other regardless of key, scale or anything other than the sound.

If yer going minor, think of the b3; dominant V gets a b7; dim becomes [1 - b3 - b5 - b7] etc.

Then every day take one aspect of music & explore that & nothing else that day.
It further helps to develop yer sense of relative pitch if you sing the notes yer working with.

Trust me that will do more than anything else to speed yer learning curve.

You can always look up the nomenclature when you need to communicate w/ those sort of musicians but knowing the way things sound & how those sounds affect the communication of music will always be more effective than knowing the terminology but not how to manipulate the music.

Otherwise it's like tryna invent recipes w/out knowing what the diff spices taste like in combinations.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2880531 - 09/20/17 06:51 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks to all. I've made some pretty good progress since coming back here, but now I feel i need to take a breather and continue to practice what I know so far.

So far, I can move up and down the neck with the minor pentatonic shapes and started practicing putting in those extra notes mentioned above.

I guess the goal is to solo, and for the most part, what I've learned thus far has enabled me to do that. I know there's more to it, but for now, I am happy that i've gone this far.

I am going to come back to all that has been said on this thread at some point soon in the future. Sometimes, coming back with fresh eyes makes a big difference.

To be honest, i don't think i'm ever going to understand and relate to the technical stuff anywhere as well as you folks do. I continue to run up against a mental block once I approach the technical terms.

Thanks to all. I'm not leaving the thread. Just digesting it over time.

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#2880538 - 09/20/17 10:01 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: d]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2033
Loc: PA
@d,

I agree in principle with the information in your post with one exception. That being "dim becomes [1 - b3 - b5 - b7]". Actually, this is the formula for the minor7 flat 5 chord (notated m7-5 or m7b5). It is sometimes referred to as the "half-diminished" chord. The formula for the diminished 7th chord is 1-b3-b5-bb7. Yes, it is a double flat and the bb7 is "enharmonically equivalent" to a natural 6th, but is always notated as a double flat 7.

As long as we're teaching this guy we should teach him correctly.

If you want to respond to my post, please do so in English.
_________________________
If you play cool, you are cool.

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#2880587 - 09/21/17 06:32 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Music Fusion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I was reading a book just now; more specifically, The Republic by Plato. It's philosophy as I am sure you know.

On page 87, it says:

These harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian and the full toned or bass-Lydian.

Later, it says

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian, they are termed "relaxed", Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones you have left."

Guess I can't get away from this stuff ;-)

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