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#2768520 - 03/30/16 08:34 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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No No No Skipclone 1, don't Delete! I shorten up the contacts names all the time (like Photon, Jimi, Pinky Jim, etc. I hope it didn't bug him as we haven't heard from him in so long!). You can just call me Lar if you want to LOL! (I think Skip is a cool name btw!). cool
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#2768663 - 03/30/16 08:06 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks. I am back. I have had a chance to practice the pentatonic Am scale, and I also took your advice and moved it down to the second fret on the 6th string, and I did notice a big difference in the overall mood of the soloing.

Here's where I am now:

I am doing pretty good in playing all 5 shapes of the minor pentatonic scale. I can play them in all five positions up and down, as well as moving across.

I am not very good at moving that same shape across the neck while starting on the second fret on the 6th string. I am just not used to it yet.

So, I think I will spend the next week or so trying to get better at moving through the shapes of the Am pentatonic while starting at the second fret of the 6th string.

After that, I would like to know more about the dorian scale and why and when you'd use that,. But not now because I find that if I try to absorb too much at once, I end up forgetting.

Do my next steps make sense? As mentioned, i play entirely by ear and am principally a songwriter, and I have a hard time identifying with the theory of music and musical terms. So, instructions such as "move to the 2nd fret of the 6th string" pretty much works for me ;-)

Thanks again to all.


Edited by Music Fusion (03/30/16 08:07 PM)

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#2768667 - 03/30/16 08:24 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
wow. I watched the tutorial on relative minors and I think I actually understand how to go to the relative minor. I also now understand what people mean when they use the roman numerals.

Thanks again.

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#2768668 - 03/30/16 08:36 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
CEB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Thanks for all the tips and advice. That has sure answered a lot about what i was wondering about. Bare with me, because I have always played by ear and referring to 5th, 3rd fourth and all that stuff, is somewhat chinese to me.


That is your problem. You need to learn your intervals in all signatures otherwise the scales are of limited use. You have to have somewhat of a handle on the math if you want to learn how to superimpose scales or even apply them in more basic ways. Not sure what a good source is. All my theory came from piano study. Mark Levin's Jazz book was good for me but I already had 10 years of classical studies in. You can't skip the underlining fundementals. Maybe the guitar guys know a good text. This doesn't replace your ear. It allows you to understand it and suppliment it more easily with richer melodic and harmonic content. Someday down the road you can google 'McCoy Tyner superimposed pentatonics'. First learn your basic intervals.


Edited by CEB (03/30/16 08:37 PM)
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#2768758 - 03/31/16 08:10 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: CEB]
Music Fusion Offline
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I took guitar lessons when I was a kid and it was a bit of a disaster. For some reason, back then, and now to some extent, my brain finds it hard to make a connection between sounds that I hear, and writing them done scientifically in the form of sheet music. I have a lot of respect and admiration for people who can, and who have studied that. For me , it is something of a mental block. But , some of this discussion is making sense to me- so maybe there is still hope that i can begin to think of music on more structured terms. I've always resisted learning it in that way because as a songwriter, i always felt that it was good to not know the rules, so you can break them easily, leading hopefully, to more interesting songs. But as I get older and wiser, I am starting to appreciate the value of knowing the theory. So please bare with me.

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#2768779 - 03/31/16 09:06 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Winston Psmith Offline
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The most fun and approachable book I know of on this subject - I also love his music.

Musician's Guide to Reading & Writng Music.



Edited by Winston Psmith (03/31/16 09:06 AM)
Edit Reason: sp.
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#2768783 - 03/31/16 09:19 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
CEB Offline
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At the end if the day you learn theory so you can internalize it and forget it. There are different ways to think about the same things. Some ways are easier in different songs.

Somebody was talking about Dorian minor. Often I find it is better NOT to think modally. Like in a simple song like Moon Dance where you might want to alternate between Dorian and natural minor in a solo. It maybe easier to think of natural minor with accidental sharped sixths thrown in from time to time. Instead of THINKING of modes just know you are jamming in A minor and you are going to throw in the occasional F#.

You need to know the basic intervals of the major scale and how the math works else memorizing scale positions it just the same thing as memorizing guitar licks. Not a bad thing just less useful.

It is whatever works easiest mentally. The eventual goal is to not have to think but play what your mind hears. Theory helps us know what we are hearing.


Edited by CEB (03/31/16 04:15 PM)
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#2768902 - 03/31/16 03:11 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
Music Fusion Offline
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Thank-you. I just placed on order for the book. Says it should be in by April 27th- probably sooner.

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#2768909 - 03/31/16 03:24 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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@CEB

+1. You need to learn theory and technique. But when you have thoroughly assimilated the information it will translate into MAKING MUSIC!!!

As I've observed so many times in the past, the more theory and technique I learn, the better I play.
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#2768943 - 03/31/16 06:09 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion

I am doing pretty good in playing all 5 shapes of the minor pentatonic scale. I can play them in all five positions up and down, as well as moving across.

I am not very good at moving that same shape across the neck while starting on the second fret on the 6th string. I am just not used to it yet.

So, I think I will spend the next week or so trying to get better at moving through the shapes of the Am pentatonic while starting at the second fret of the 6th string.

Do my next steps make sense? As mentioned, i play entirely by ear and am principally a songwriter, and I have a hard time identifying with the theory of music and musical terms. So, instructions such as "move to the 2nd fret of the 6th string" pretty much works for me ;-)

Thanks again to all.


I'm going to play Devils Advocate and let you know that you are doing the right thing! As a disclaimer I'm not disagreeing with the advice by the others on our forum LOL!

Each of us attacks the learning of this wonderful instrument in a different way. No method is wrong to include playing by ear IMHO. I know of a Jazz guitar genius player/instructor that will tell you to forget all scales, modes, intervals, etc., and learn to copy his lines and adapt all of them "under your fingers." The proof is in the pudding as his students are all over YouTube and you can google on them. He is one of the great jazz players of all time. I on the other hand, keep going in my direction even though I know I could play jazz much better if I just follow his method. His name is Robert Conti and you can judge for yourself...

My answer to your question is to understand that when you play position 1 in the Am scale with the root tone on the 6th (and 1st string), on the 5th fret A, and drop it down to the same scale at the 2nd fret, F# on the 6th string (and 1st string), and you are having trouble converting the same minor scale to the major scale, try starting and ending on the root tone (6th string 5th fret A or the 1st string on the 5th fret). I will make the following suggestion:

When you are playing the A minor pentatonic minor scale at the 5th fret, 6th string, think of it as a 1st finger start and the root tone is on the 6th string, if you do the exact same scale at the 2nd fret, 6th string, 1st finger start, you will be doing nothing more than an F# minor pentatonic scale. So, play the same exact scale but, instead of starting with the first finger on the F# second fret 6th string, start with the "little finger start" on the 6th string 5th fret (root tone) and think "boogie woogie". This will start you on the major pentatonic scale. Play with the backing tracks I have suggested or play along with any song in your CD collection in the key of A major. You will hear what you are looking for! If you can play the patterns up and down the fretboard as you stated...keep your charts in front of you as you noodle along! Hope this is helpful!

There is nothing wrong with studying theory till the cows come home and reading the suggested material. There is nothing wrong with playing by ear either IMHO. You will eventually hear the same intervals and can study them. The 1st one you will want to add is the flat 5 blue note LOL! The beauty of the guitar in standard tuning is it automatically transposes all chords, scales and intervals for you. Don't worry so much, you are on the right track so have fun with it! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/01/16 07:36 AM)
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#2769002 - 03/31/16 11:39 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
No No No Skipclone 1, don't Delete! I shorten up the contacts names all the time (like Photon, Jimi, Pinky Jim, etc. I hope it didn't bug him as we haven't heard from him in so long!). You can just call me Lar if you want to LOL! (I think Skip is a cool name btw!). cool


Thanks Larryz!
I guess I`ll skip with Stickclone.........


I knew I shouldn`t have had that last beer yesterday grin
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#2769253 - 04/01/16 08:36 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks/Larryz

Thanks for the continued advice. i read each one and take it all seriously. So thanks again!!!

Here is a sample of my work. It is a song I wrote as a Led Zeppelin type of blues tribute. Obviously, it was not me playing lead ;-) http://www.musicfusion.us/crawlzep.mp3

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#2769267 - 04/01/16 10:41 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Keep up the good work Music Fusion! Sounds very cool to me! cool
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#2769321 - 04/02/16 08:13 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Larryz makes a very strong point, in the sense of "Just play the damned thing!"

I studied Music Theory to expand my understanding of what I could do with Music, not so I can sit down and review a bunch of rules and formulae, every time I sit down to play. I don't now if I'd ever get around to making any music, in that case.

Knowing where all the notes are on the neck, freed me from having to hunt down notes when I wanted to play, just as learning about Keys and Scales freed me from having to wonder what notes would go well together, or clash horribly. In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. Just one old guy's experience . . .
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#2769373 - 04/02/16 11:12 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Winston Psmith]
Fred_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
Larryz makes a very strong point, in the sense of "Just play the damned thing!"

I studied Music Theory to expand my understanding of what I could do with Music, not so I can sit down and review a bunch of rules and formulae, every time I sit down to play. I don't now if I'd ever get around to making any music, in that case.

Knowing where all the notes are on the neck, freed me from having to hunt down notes when I wanted to play, just as learning about Keys and Scales freed me from having to wonder what notes would go well together, or clash horribly. In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. Just one old guy's experience . . .


+1. Much agreed. That's the main concept of "Chord Tone Soloing". Life is easier when you know where the "targets" are and how to "approach" them.
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#2769390 - 04/02/16 12:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
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Loc: Ontario
I think I am on the right track and am getting some great encouragement and information from you folks. I have many friends who are excellent piano players, but take away their sheet music and they are completely lost. I think that's an extreme that I don't want to go to. I like the way Winston put it " In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. "

That would be my goal, to understand what I am doing better.

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#2769545 - 04/03/16 09:31 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I have many friends who are excellent piano players, but take away their sheet music and they are completel


I'm not surprised. My mother forced me to take piano lessons from the age of 8 to 14. I went to a private school and they only taught classical piano. No Jazz. No Pop. And certainly no Rock and Roll. I played piece after piece. No theory. The only technique they taught was "Correct Fingering".

I HATED EVERY MINUTE OF IT!

At 14, I picked up the guitar and never looked back.

In the interest of fairness, I'm fairly certain that the musicians on the Keyboard Forum probably had a learning experiece far different from mine. I'm sure that they probably have excellent improvisational skills and are highly competent musicians.


AFTERTHOUGHT: piano did teach me how to read music.


Edited by Fred_C (04/03/16 09:45 AM)
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#2769554 - 04/03/16 10:07 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I think I am on the right track and am getting some great encouragement and information from you folks. I have many friends who are excellent piano players, but take away their sheet music and they are completely lost. I think that's an extreme that I don't want to go to. I like the way Winston put it " In an odd sense, the better I understood what I was doing, the less I had to think about it. "

That would be my goal, to understand what I am doing better.


Reminds me of something I posted in this forum a couple of times WAY back.

My ex had a friend( nice person regardless) who said SHE was taking guitar lessons. Well, at the time, I not only had my truty Epiphone FT-145, but a buddy of mine was over a couple of days earlier and left his old Gibson "Workman" at my house. I suggested to my wife's friend that I pull them out and we jam a bit.

She too, like your piano playing buddies, claimed she couldn't play without her sheet music!

While I'll admit to an envy of anyone who CAN read music, I get dismayed at finding people who are CHAINED to it.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (04/03/16 10:08 AM)
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#2771034 - 04/08/16 04:21 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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It's great if you can do BOTH... since there is no logical reason why one precludes the other.
Part of the problem is that music education, at least back in my junior high and high school days, didn't teach learning to play by ear; in a way, that's understandable, because they had a bunch of kids in the band and there wasn't time for us to improvise solos... we had to read the sheet music.
And when I started playing rock guitar, it was expected that we'd learn the songs off the records. And everybody would learn the blues scale in A at the fifth fret, and with that, we could jam - no need to learn to read.
Luckily, I had learned to read music playing trumpet in school bands, and so learned to read on guitar, too. No one told me it was difficult, so I just sat down and did it. Not on the level of studio pros, I assure you.... LOL.
I admit, though, that you CAN get lazy if you are handed sheet music for every song, or lyrics with chord symbols above. I got used to that in church situations. Now there's a band at a church I sometimes attend, but they have no sheet music, and to join them I'd have to learn all the tunes by ear. Not that I couldn't; it's not Juilliard; but it'd take a fair amount of effort. Oddly enough, it'd be much easier to just do improvised solos over them, because they're not modulating through a dozen key centers like some old jazz standards.

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#2879290 - 09/14/17 04:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Loc: Ontario
Hi folks.

It has been a long time since I have been here, but I assure you that I have been busily putting into practice the lessons you folks taught me about the use of the minor pentatonic scale and how I can use that same pattern as a major scale by moving the shape 4 frets down towards the nut. Thanks so much for all that advice. It has worked wonders and I never would have been able to piece it together on my own.

So now I have another question. What is the difference between the minor/major pentatonic and a dorian scale. More specifically, when would I use a dorian scale and how is it different?

Thanks again!!!!!

Music Fusion

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#2879292 - 09/14/17 04:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
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Google "Circle of Fifths"

Well worth learning

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#2879293 - 09/14/17 04:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
DocPate Offline
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Google "Circle of Fifths"

Well worth learning

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#2879304 - 09/14/17 05:40 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
Hi folks.

It has been a long time since I have been here, but I assure you that I have been busily putting into practice the lessons you folks taught me about the use of the minor pentatonic scale and how I can use that same pattern as a major scale by moving the shape 4 frets down towards the nut. Thanks so much for all that advice. It has worked wonders and I never would have been able to piece it together on my own.

So now I have another question. What is the difference between the minor/major pentatonic and a dorian scale. More specifically, when would I use a dorian scale and how is it different?

Thanks again!!!!!

Music Fusion


https://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-512-DorianMode.php
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#2879344 - 09/14/17 09:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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Welcome back Music Fusion...so glad to hear you're sticking with it! Here's a lesson from Marty on the whole enchilada of shifting from a Pentatonic to a Dorian mode and using them both to jam with, along with the chords that go with them...have fun with it! I'm putting this one in my favorites to come back to myself LOL! You can find Marty lessons all over YouTube. He can explain it much better than I can LOL! I'm sure there are tons of others. Just search on the lessons for anything you can think of!



thu
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#2879406 - 09/15/17 07:37 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Thanks to all for the references and the video link. I may be jumping the gun a bit on the dorian thing. I've bookmarked the Marty video and will come back to it once I get by some other issues that I am trying to figure out. Also, I watched 2 videos on the circle of 5ths and it makes sense to me to a point. Theoretically, it makes sense but bridging that knowledge to my playing, is not yet happening. But I'm sure it is one of those things where the light will suddenly come on one day.

So stepping back a bit:

I now know my minor pentatonic shapes and spent many hours soloing to jam tracks in Am.

I also now know that moving the pentatonic shapes 4 frets back toward the nut, gives those same shapes a major feel and results in a more "happy" sound when soloing as opposed to bluesy.

What I don't know is this:

How do I match the above knowledge, to keys that are being played? In other words, if someone is playing in the key of Am, it's pretty clear that the minor pentatonic shapes that I learned will sound great.

But what if the song is in the key of G Major? Or C major? or Cm etc.

How do I know how to apply the patterns that I learned of the minor and major pentatonic scales?

Said another way, I'm fine if every song was played in Am, but knowing that's that not true, how to apply the shapes I learned to other keys?

Thanks for your patience. I am getting a lot out of the advice here and appreciate your time and expertise!!!!

Thank-you









Edited by Music Fusion (09/15/17 07:39 AM)

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#2879421 - 09/15/17 08:36 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Larryz Offline
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Start by remembering the root tone for the key you want to play in. Find that note on the 6th and 1st strings. That is the key you want to play in so start with that note on the 6th string and play the 5 patterns up and 5 patterns down the fret board in the key of A starting at the 5th fret. The patterns never change no matter which key you start with. The octaves pattern will automatically fall into place for you. Now, just move the root tone to any note or key you wish to play in for example G on the third fret 6th string or B on the 7th fret or C on the 8th. Repeat the 5 patterns up and down the fret board. Shift from major to minor with the 4 fret drop and the patterns still stay the same.

When starting on the 6th (root tone) string use the first finger to start with for the minor and use the little finger to start with for the major. Think blues on the minor scale and think and play the boogie woogie with the major scale... cool
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#2879424 - 09/15/17 08:53 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
A String Administrator Offline
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First, understand that the note you start on is the root note of that scale. So, starting on the 5th fret and playing the minor scale progression will give you the A minor scale. Starting on the third fret and playing the minor progression will give you the G minor scale etc. etc.

Next, there is a thing called "Modes". To super simplify, when you start a scale (do, re, mi, fa, so, etc.) on a note other than the root, you get a different sound. Major, minor, dorian etc. are all modes of the same scales.

In your case, you've discovered that you can get the major scale but dropping down 4 frets.

Here is something you can try to get your brain used to modes: Play the Aminor scale, on the fifth fret. Hit the open A string and play some stuff. Now, hit the C Power chord on the third fret, A string. Continue to use the same minor scale on the fifth. Becazuse you are starting with a different note, it will suddenly have a major sound. Try switching back and forth. You'll get it.

There is more info about modes in the write up I did, stickied to the top of the Guitar Forum lists.
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#2879428 - 09/15/17 09:02 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
A String Administrator Offline
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Modes can be a bit like looking at the "Wine glass/Two faces" optical illusion. It's all in the perception.

Once you've played the A minor scale on the fifth fret and then used the same notes to play the C Major scale, try starting on other notes.

Ionian (I)
Dorian (II)
Phrygian (III)
Lydian (IV)
Mixolydian (V)
Aeolian (VI)
Locrian (VII)
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#2879430 - 09/15/17 09:11 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
A String Administrator Offline
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Sorry, one addition to that. When getting your starting note, use the C on the 3rd fret, A string as your starting note when figuring out each mode.

So....just playing the A minor scale on the 5th fret for ALL of these:
-Start on C gives you Ionian (Major) scale.
-Start on the second note, the D, you get the Dorian mode/scale in the key of D.
-Start on the 3rd note, the E, you get the Phrygian in the key of E.
-Start on the 4th note, the F, and you get the Lydian in the key of F.
etc. etc. etc.
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#2879434 - 09/15/17 09:20 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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Good info Astring. Another thing I do is align the pentatonic 5 patterns with the major and minor modes. I skip the Phrygian and Locrian modes as they will be there should I ever find a need for them LOL! I start in this order Aeolian (minor), Ionian (major), Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian and then repeat up or going down as the order never changes. You can then shift in and out of the pentatonic major and minor scales with the major and minor scales in all 5 positions in any key... cool

ps. there is a lot of good info on your Theory Thread in the forum list that can be referred to as well, that covers a lot of this info! Thanks! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/15/17 09:24 AM)
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