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#2767081 - 03/25/16 08:47 AM Pentatonic question
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
I am one of those guitar players who has been guilty of not learning my scales and hoping that my solos miraculously fall into place. I have since decided to learn them and I started with the Minor pentatonic scale. So far, I ave learned it in 4 out of the 5 positions on the neck.

My question is, what chord patterns can I play it over top of? For example, will it work on a song that has a basic A, D, and E pattern? So basically, what chord progressions will it fit with?

Thank-you


Edited by Music Fusion (03/25/16 08:48 AM)

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#2767099 - 03/25/16 10:04 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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The minor pentatonic will play over the I-IV-V progression perfectly. Realize that the scale will sound very "bluesy" and will have a minor tonality.
If you want a more "Major" sound, play the Major Pentatonic. This is easy. The major and minor pentatonic are the same scale, except the major pentonic starts on the 2nd note of the minor. So, in the Key of A Major, the root of the min. Pent is A and the root of the major pent. is C.

In root position A is located at 6/5 and C is located at 6/8. Start the maj. pent on 6/8 with your 4th finger and continue up the min. pent. as usual.

Use C Major Pentatonic to play in C Major not A.


Edited by Fred_C (03/25/16 10:31 AM)
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#2767131 - 03/25/16 11:44 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The minor pentatonic will play over the I-IV-V progression perfectly. Realize that the scale will sound very "bluesy" and will have a minor tonality.
If you want a more "Major" sound, play the Major Pentatonic. This is easy. The major and minor pentatonic are the same scale, except the major pentatonic starts on the 2nd note of the minor.


Example in application: when jamming with an old friend one time over a I IV V in the key of A like that, he played lines drawing on the Bluesy, moody minor Pentatonic, while my lines were all grounded in the sunnier, more Country/Country-Blues sounding Pentatonic Major. This made for an interesting contrast and made it all the more clear that there were two different people trading leads. This wasn't a conscious premeditated decision, it was just by happenstance- but it sure worked.
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#2767133 - 03/25/16 11:47 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Fred_C Offline
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Caev,

An excellent "comparison and contrast".
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#2767179 - 03/25/16 03:15 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Originally Posted By: Music Fusion
I am one of those guitar players who has been guilty of not learning my scales and hoping that my solos miraculously fall into place. I have since decided to learn them and I started with the Minor pentatonic scale. So far, I ave learned it in 4 out of the 5 positions on the neck.

My question is, what chord patterns can I play it over top of? For example, will it work on a song that has a basic A, D, and E pattern? So basically, what chord progressions will it fit with?

Thank-you


You can play the minor pentatonic scale over almost any chord progression, if it does not fit, try the major pentatonic which starts 4 frets down from the minor.
The whole point is to play it against anything and experiment until you find the right mode (Major minor etc)

You need experience, trying things out on your own along with a little theory thrown in.

Also learn the whole scale it is related to, the minor pentatonic is related to the relative minor scale, deleting 2 notes. Same with the major pentatonic, it is related to the major scale (do,re,mi,fa,sol,la,ti,do) deleting 2 notes.

penĚtaĚtonĚic
adjectiveMusic
adjective: pentatonic

relating to, based on, or denoting a scale of five notes, especially one without semitones equivalent to an ordinary major scale with the fourth and seventh omitted.
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#2767202 - 03/25/16 04:29 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
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Thanks for all the tips and advice. That has sure answered a lot about what i was wondering about. Bare with me, because I have always played by ear and referring to 5th, 3rd fourth and all that stuff, is somewhat chinese to me.

This is a link to the pentatonic scale positions that I have memorized.

http://www.shredmentor.com/images/fretboard/5-positions-a-minor-pentatonic.png

While referring to it, I am wondering if you could tell me a little more about what i would need to change to make it into a major pentatonic scale.

Thanks so much!!!! I tried to research this stuff, but sometimes there is no replacement for good old fashioned Q/A. I appreciate your time and expertise.

And on a related note- when do people play a dorian scale?


Edited by Music Fusion (03/25/16 04:30 PM)

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#2767245 - 03/25/16 07:12 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
desertbluesman Offline
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The a minor pentatonic scale is the same as a C Major pentatonic scale. The difference is you would play the same a minor scale which would become a C Major pentatonic scale in a country style tune in the key of C.

If you put first finger on the 6th string (bass string) on the fifth fret to begin an a minor pentatonic scale. You could move your fingers down 4 frets putting your 1st finger on the second fret 6th string and your 4th finger on the fifth fret on string 6, that same box but moved four frets towards the nut becomes the A Major pentatonic.
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#2767248 - 03/25/16 07:21 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
desertbluesman Offline
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The major pentatonic scale has a different "flavor" than the minor pentatonic. It is easier to put the minor pentatonic scale against a chord progression in the key of A because any minor pentatonic note fits against any chord in a standard 1,4,5 or other progressions even if the chords are major, or minor chords, or any mix of the two.

My guitar teacher the late Emily Remler gave me this instruction in one of her lessons; "freedom is in the minors". Meaning you are free to play or land on any note, or resolve on any note and it fits......
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#2767264 - 03/25/16 09:10 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG2YKWsBPn0&list=RDwI7jaqMDB6k <---try your major pentatonic over this progression, then try it again using your minor pentatonic, then you can switch back and forth if you want to using the 4 fret drop that DBM mentioned (using the same pattern for major just go back up 4 frets and use it for minor! Keep all of your 5 positions within a 4 fret span for now...switch to A Dorian on this one if you want to!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Z-aSQnUho <---try your minor pentatonic over this progression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSA5ffftwdE&index=2&list=RDp_Z-aSQnUho <---or maybe this one for your minor...and try your Dorian, Dorian is a good rock mode...

Whenever you are playing country or rock and roll and using major chords, use a major pentatonic...

Whenever you are playing a minor tune or blues/jazz with lots of 7ths and 9ths, use a minor pentatonic...

In some songs you can use them both (as in the first backing track above). There are lots of backing tracks on YouTube to play along with in many different genres. Just google on Blues Backing Tracks, Jazz Backing Tracks, Country Backing Tracks, etc. This will get you playing in time while practicing with a band...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRlMy6xmvxw&list=RDDRlMy6xmvxw#t=52 <---try this one with your A Dorian or your A minor Pentatonic...

There are lots of pentatonic scale lessons on YouTube that are fun to hop around with that will give you some cool ideas. Congrats on learning the Pentatonic scales as they will help you improvise and play in any key. cool


Edited by Larryz (03/25/16 10:07 PM)
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#2767267 - 03/25/16 09:35 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
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For the I IV V translation: 1 is always your root tone. If you are in the key of A, A is the 1. Now count up and place the note under each number starting with the 1;

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A B C D E F G

so a 1 4 5 would be A D E

if you are in the key of G, then G is the 1;

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
G A B C D E F

so a 1 4 5 would be G C D.

using roman numerals it would be I IV V.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck and have fun with it Music Fusion! cool


Edited by Larryz (03/25/16 09:48 PM)
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#2767295 - 03/26/16 05:35 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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This may have been mentioned already, but for the pentatonic or any other scale, there`s a relative major and minor-that is why Fred and Caevan mentioned the Pentatonic scale in C and A. C minor has a relative major, which is A. There`s a little mistake late in this video but he corrects it, so it may be helpful:

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#2767380 - 03/26/16 11:55 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Music Fusion Offline
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Registered: 12/27/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Ontario
Hi folks. All of your advice has been very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to explain and to include links. I really appreciate it. I have read them all, but I plan to circle back to this after Easter and actually do the excersizes.

Thanks again. I obviously picked the right place to ask these questions.

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#2767401 - 03/26/16 01:10 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Music Fusion]
Fred_C Offline
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Mus. Fus.,

I'm certain that I can speak for all the forum members who responded and say, "You're Welcome"! And thank you for your kind appreciation.

Hang out with us. There are some very knowledgeable musicians on this forum.


Edited by Fred_C (03/26/16 01:12 PM)
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#2767409 - 03/26/16 01:44 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4360
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Mus. Fus.,

I'm certain that I can speak for all the forum members who responded and say, "You're Welcome"! And thank you for your kind appreciation.

Hang out with us. There are some very knowledgeable musicians on this forum.


Yep +1
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#2767413 - 03/26/16 01:53 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Mus. Fus.,

I'm certain that I can speak for all the forum members who responded and say, "You're Welcome"! And thank you for your kind appreciation.


Troof.
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#2767419 - 03/26/16 02:15 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Fred_C Offline
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Gents,

We do good work. Don't we?
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#2767426 - 03/26/16 02:38 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,
We do good work. Don't we?


You're all people I would choose to spend time with in person, if we all were in the same physical space. Thanks, friends
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#2767474 - 03/26/16 06:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4360
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,

We do good work. Don't we?


Yep, and the price is right.......
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If it sounds good, it is good !!
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Harvey Cedars is my stage name on Soundclick

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#2767512 - 03/26/16 11:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10115
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,
We do good work. Don't we?


You're all people I would choose to spend time with in person, if we all were in the same physical space. Thanks, friends


+1,000! twothumbs
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#2767590 - 03/27/16 08:56 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
bbqbob Offline
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Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 565
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The minor pentatonic will play over the I-IV-V progression perfectly. Realize that the scale will sound very "bluesy" and will have a minor tonality.
If you want a more "Major" sound, play the Major Pentatonic. This is easy. The major and minor pentatonic are the same scale, except the major pentatonic starts on the 2nd note of the minor.


Example in application: when jamming with an old friend one time over a I IV V in the key of A like that, he played lines drawing on the Bluesy, moody minor Pentatonic, while my lines were all grounded in the sunnier, more Country/Country-Blues sounding Pentatonic Major. This made for an interesting contrast and made it all the more clear that there were two different people trading leads. This wasn't a conscious premeditated decision, it was just by happenstance- but it sure worked.

One of the first things I learned on guitar was the minor pentatonic "box" and as a novice this seemed like magic to me, it seemed to me that I could not make a mistake. The problem is I quickly found it boring. I then learned a major pentatonic box which I started using. The next thing I learned about was the relative minor theory and I then started utilizing both scales within a solo. As a for instance, if playing a 12 bar blues in G, I start playing in the Gmaj scale and slide up when it seems right briefly to the Em scale and back again. I found it almost always works and makes things sound more interesting.
The question I have is is there a any general rules when it is more appropriate to use which scale, major or minor? The one thing I have not really done much is combine the major and minor in the same key(Gmaj scale with Gm scale for instance)together in the same solo. I don't know if there are general theoretical guidelines for this.

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#2767631 - 03/27/16 12:16 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: bbqbob]
Fred_C Offline
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Over the past couple of years I have been using a technique called "Chord Tone Soloing" in my Blues solos. The technique focuses on Targeting chord tones using chromatic and intervallic approach plus scalar ideas to create the line. The end result is a sound similar to a horn line. It tends to sound much more melodic and less predictable than a strictly scalar approach.
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#2767652 - 03/27/16 01:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fred, +1 I'm trying to work on chord tones in my scale work these days!

@ BBQ, My basic general rule of thumb is play the minor scales when the song calls for it and play the major scales when the song calls for it (pentatonic or diatonic). Just to prove it to yourself play a major scale and immediately following it, strum the Aminor chord, then play the major scale and immediately following it strum the Amajor chord. Which one works the best?

There are songs that use both the major and minor chord in the same key or A. A good example is Runaway by Del Shannon. Starts with Am "as I walk along, etc." then the song shifts to Amaj "I'm a walking in the rain."

Another example are songs like in Sleep Walk changing from the Fmaj to the Fminor chord, you can follow the chord changes with your scales. There are many songs that do this like Since I Fell for you going from an Amaj to an Aminor (I think Santo and Johnny might have got the idea from this song). You can change the major scale to follow the same chord and the minor scale if you are following the chords.

The reason for the Gmajor to Eminor at any time is the relative minor 6th note of the G scale is Em, and it works either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU-XLNs4TCY <---here's a song to play with. The song is in F#minor "they made up their minds, and they started packing." Then shifts to Amajor for the chorus "anyone can see the road they walk on is paved in gold." F# is the 6th note of the A scale. So you can use the 1st position of the pentatonic to play the verse in F#minor and when the song shifts to Amajor, you stay right there playing the exact same scale (5th position of the Amajor pentatonic scale). The only thing that changes is your way of thinking. You think minor and it is minor, you think major and it is major. Some claim not to think when playing scales. This is an example of thinking LOL! You can play majors and minors in the same scale, but follow the song otherwise you'll find yourself out of alignment with the rest of the band...hope this is helpful. Have fun with it! cool


Edited by Larryz (03/27/16 01:39 PM)
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#2767689 - 03/27/16 06:04 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Scott Fraser]
desertbluesman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4360
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Gents,
We do good work. Don't we?


You're all people I would choose to spend time with in person, if we all were in the same physical space. Thanks, friends


Yep
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If it sounds good, it is good !!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music
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#2767769 - 03/28/16 04:27 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: desertbluesman]
Eric Iverson Offline
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I do remember one time I told a guitarist that a song was in A, so he immediately went to the 5th position pentatonic we all know and love, and I had to tell him, "this song has a really MAJOR feel, so please play those same licks three frets down" which gave me the C#s I wanted to hear, LOL.

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#2767999 - 03/28/16 03:05 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
bbqbob Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 565
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Larryz
@ Fred, +1 I'm trying to work on chord tones in my scale work these days!

@ BBQ, My basic general rule of thumb is play the minor scales when the song calls for it and play the major scales when the song calls for it (pentatonic or diatonic). Just to prove it to yourself play a major scale and immediately following it, strum the Aminor chord, then play the major scale and immediately following it strum the Amajor chord. Which one works the best?

There are songs that use both the major and minor chord in the same key or A. A good example is Runaway by Del Shannon. Starts with Am "as I walk along, etc." then the song shifts to Amaj "I'm a walking in the rain."

Another example are songs like in Sleep Walk changing from the Fmaj to the Fminor chord, you can follow the chord changes with your scales. There are many songs that do this like Since I Fell for you going from an Amaj to an Aminor (I think Santo and Johnny might have got the idea from this song). You can change the major scale to follow the same chord and the minor scale if you are following the chords.

The reason for the Gmajor to Eminor at any time is the relative minor 6th note of the G scale is Em, and it works either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU-XLNs4TCY <---here's a song to play with. The song is in F#minor "they made up their minds, and they started packing." Then shifts to Amajor for the chorus "anyone can see the road they walk on is paved in gold." F# is the 6th note of the A scale. So you can use the 1st position of the pentatonic to play the verse in F#minor and when the song shifts to Amajor, you stay right there playing the exact same scale (5th position of the Amajor pentatonic scale). The only thing that changes is your way of thinking. You think minor and it is minor, you think major and it is major. Some claim not to think when playing scales. This is an example of thinking LOL! You can play majors and minors in the same scale, but follow the song otherwise you'll find yourself out of alignment with the rest of the band...hope this is helpful. Have fun with it! cool

Thanks for the information! There's so much to gnaw on when it comes to utilizing pentatonic scales. They give you a starting point which is pretty easy to deal with but if you want to create something memorable, there is a lot to explore. What's funny to me is sometimes I hear and recognize that a great guitarist is utilizing a pentatonic scale in a riff or solo. What mystifies me is why his/her utilization sounds so much better than mine!

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#2768044 - 03/28/16 04:32 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: bbqbob]
CEB Offline
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Get the one right, everything else can be a passing tone.
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#2768094 - 03/28/16 09:28 PM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: bbqbob]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: bbqbob
What's funny to me is sometimes I hear and recognize that a great guitarist is utilizing a pentatonic scale in a riff or solo. What mystifies me is why his/her utilization sounds so much better than mine!


I have the same problem BBQ! I never can figure out why they sound so much better than me, playing the same dad gum notes LOL! crazy
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#2768132 - 03/29/16 02:38 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Well it`s not just choosing what to play but when to play it. Eric Johnson, Joe Satriani and many other very capable players will break out a pentatonic run-but not where or how one would expect it.

Some time ago I mentioned the three ways to approach a pentatonic scale-from low to high on the same frets which most everyone knows, moving up the strings toward the bridge, and going `backwards` towards the nut.
Those three patterns alone open up possibilities on the fretboard.

Er...now that I think about it, that discussion may have been about the basic major scale. But the same idea applies.


Edited by skipclone 1 (03/29/16 07:04 AM)
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#2768233 - 03/29/16 09:42 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Er...now that I think about it, that discussion may have been about the basic major scale. But the same idea applies.


+1 Skip and don't forget to Skip strings now and then LOL! cool
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#2768482 - 03/30/16 05:22 AM Re: Pentatonic question [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7986
Loc: Japan
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
Er...now that I think about it, that discussion may have been about the basic major scale. But the same idea applies.


+1 Skip and don't forget to Skip strings now and then LOL! cool


grin

I was thinking recently, that I`ve been called Skip for a long time. At this point it sounds kind of...analog, ya know?
Maybe I should change my name to Delete.
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