HX3 MIDI expander module

[Dave Osoff]

http://wiki.keyboardpartner.de/index.php?title=HOAX/HX3_Hauptseite

 

 

[Al Coda]

hello mitch ,

is the hx3 compatable with the controls in the mojo ? ,

what's the advantage of the module over just using the board

that they sell ? the board looks small enough to fit inside

an existing organ

 

The HX3 circuit board isn´t MIDI per sé,- the original idea was trowing it in p.ex. a damaged HS XB-2 and connect haptics and keyboard by using Fatar scan boards and other circuitry directly or doing the same w/ a DIY organ clone enclosure.

The HX3 board also offers connectors for an extension board offering more audio I/O options like FX loop and Leslie connector.

That extension you won´t find in a HX3 MIDI organ expander module. It simply doesn´t fit.

 

To use the HX3 board w/ a Mojo, you might need some kind of MIDI board in addition and the MIDI controller mapping should fit.

 

The HX3 MIDI expander module is completely MIDI controlled and it´s more or less a different product.

I think MIDI mapping for Mojo is doable by request and if it´s not done already.

 

Keyboardpartner will not offer complete organs w/ HX3 inside,- but the german company UHL will,- while german company Keyboardmanufaktur actually is specialized offering MIDI organ controllers.

UHL

 

Onlineshop isn´t up yet but shall be this month.

Organs shall be available then.

Website is actually in german only and the organs you see are prototypes.

I look all day for the shop being up, especially after I have seen the great look and heard the sound of the new KeyB Legend.

Comparing price for Legend and UHL X3-2 might be interesting.

I also wonder how long it will last until other brands will use the HX3 engine inside their clones.

 

A.C.

 

[bill bosco]

I just checked keyboardpartners website and they state that

the hx3 boards are no longer available for sale to end users .

anyway , on your setup , can you control volume , drive ,reverb ,

etc , from the mojo's panel ? also , do the presets work ?

[Dave Osoff]

They still sell the Expanders direct. You may have to go through one of the service / organ manufacturers like UHL, MAg, Keyboardmanufaktur, for the parts. Thanks Al Coda for all the other info - I'm most familiar with the Midi Expander.

 

As to the Mojo - Yes to all above, via the HX3 MK 4 midi expander, Volume is controlled either with the AMP 122 volume setting in the HX3 controlled by the Mojo Drive knob, or clean signal setting via a volume or Midi CC expression pedal The Mojo (Hamichord) midi CC preset is preconfigured for the Reverb knob controlling the Reverb Type on the HX3. You could change that in the Remote software to control the Reverb level instead (There are 3 different Reverb types in the HX3 Expander to choose from - any of those can be a stored default setting.) Presets will work - you can set up the presets anyway you like and store them for recall.

[Al Coda]

They still sell the Expanders direct. You may have to go through one of the service / organ manufacturers like UHL, MAg, Keyboardmanufaktur, for the parts. Thanks Al Coda for all the other info - I'm most familiar with the Midi Expander.

 

Dave, sorry I forgot MOJO MIDI implementation is the same than Hamichord.

I know Hamichord is supported.

I didn´t want to talk much about the HX3 expander module because the OP asked:

 

"what's the advantage of the module over just using the board

that they sell ? the board looks small enough to fit inside

an existing organ"

 

No one who buyed the HX3 expander can talk about the advantages of the expander over the board when he never assembled a DIY organ clone or the HS XB-2 retrofit using the board.

 

I had the impression the OP wanted to buy the board and mount it into the MOJO.

As I mentioned above, MOJO internally is MIDI completely.

THIS is the important factor.

MOJO´s drawbars etc. and the manuals are connected to the engine, which is a Intel computer mobo, via MIDI.

 

HX3 is a FPGA and allows quasi direct connection.

 

So, throwing HX3 engine board into MOJO requires more circuitry to make it work and makes it a DIY project.

In addition, the result would be a modified MOJO w/ TWO engines inside leaving more questios like "shall both engines work alternately or not" and so on.

Sounds more complex to me than worth to discuss here.

 

In other DIY clones w/ the target of direct connectivity of drawbars, knobs, buttons and manuals, different electronics would be neccessary.

For something like Mate Stubb´s DIY organ controllers, the HX3 engine board alone should be ideal.

 

So,- WHEN the OP wants to keep his MOJO,- the HX3 MIDI expander is the best choice I think.

 

But when anyone wants to sell his organ because of not ideally placed haptics and/or sound and not only wants to get a module for integration into an existing keyboard rig, thinking about buying one of the upcoming UHL or MAG organs is the best IMO.

 

But then, the upcoming KeyB Legend s also a competitor, not only depending on price and sound comparison but also because w/ the KeyB Legend, you get some more,- 2 sets of drawbars for upper and lower manual p.ex..

You´d get that only w/ the flagship MAG organ which I think is vaporware up to now, but not w/ the UHL models.

 

A.C.

 

 

[bill bosco]

my mistake , I thought the board was also available with

a midi hookup , anyway ,the expander sounds like an interesting option , I'd like to look into exactly how much of the hx3's

parameters can be controlled externally from the mojo's panel

[Dave Osoff]

Bill,

I have the Mojo set up with the HX3 expander right now and I am looking at the stock settings for the Midi CC set for Hamichord. Out of the box, here's what this CC set does:

All drawbars (Upper / Lower / Pedal) in real time.

All 12 presets can be used to recall presets you have stored in the HX3.

The percussion on/off, soft, fast, 3rd are all synced.

The C/V section is synced.

The Drive knob controls the Amp 122 volume *if* you are using that output setting on the HX3, if you are using clean organ signal output it doesn't do anything.

The Click knob controls pedal sustain.

The Reverb knob controls Reverb type.

The Bass knob controls the swell trim.

The Treble knob controls the tone trim pot.

The Leslie buttons controls the built-in HX3 Leslie (if you are using it, if not, they could control other parameters).

 

I am planning to make some adjustments to this Midi CC set now that I'm using the Mojo with it more (Of course the Hamichord predates the Mojo, so this CC set probably was a better custom fit for that)

 

There are a ton of parameters in the HX3 Expander that can be used, T.G. flutter, leakage, TG Cap set, foldback, A028 Tube age, key contact flex, and more. Some are set 'em and and forget em, some you may want real time control over from the Mojo. Here's a link to the manual if you haven't seen it yet - listing all the menu items.

http://wiki.keyboardpartner.de/index.php?title=HX3_MIDI_expander_module

 

The remote software allows you to customize any of the organ parameters to any midi CC# and then you can save the whole CC set in the Expander as a menu item or default setting.

Hope this helps!

 

[bill bosco]

wow fantastic , thanks a lot . I just sent out an email

to keyboard partner tonight about most of what you've just

covered . this helps

[bill bosco]

in frank montis's youtube video of the expander he reported a

very hot output , has anyone found this also or is there now

a fix for this ?

[Mitch Towne]

I haven't tried running it into a Leslie yet, but through my home studio set up, the output doesn't seem exceptionally hot.

[bill bosco]

hi mitch ,

is your's set up to work with the mojo ? how is that out

the box ?

[jmolino]

I'm new here (first post), so please don't strangle me if I am off-topic ..but..does not the Mojo itself have a good enough engine itself?

 

Is the HX3 *that* much better than the mojo? or is there not a better use of cash for mojo owners?

 

I guess I'm trying to justify buying the HX3....vs say investing in a Vent or Burn, etc. I'm not even sure either of those will improve the Mojo anyways now that VB3 2.4h as been released..

 

Thanks for any help....

 

[mate stubb]

I'm new here (first post), so please don't strangle me if I am off-topic ..but..does not the Mojo itself have a good enough engine itself?

 

Is the HX3 *that* much better than the mojo? or is there not a better use of cash for mojo owners?

 

Welcome to KC. You will soon discover a group of organ fanatics here for whom the pursuit of organ tone is like the pursuit of the Holy Grail.

 

For us, no matter how great a setup we obtain, we always have to try for better. It's a disease.

[jmolino]

I guess I should run as fast as I can....since I have an addictive personality...

 

and also a gorgeous cherrywood B3 w/matching 147 and a PR-40 (all 9.5 out of 10s) so nothing will ever be good enough! LOL

 

Thanks for the response and the welcome. Looks like a great place to read up on one of my all-time passions!

 

The last time I found a good forum was geekhack.org (computer keyboards) I ended up spending a fortune on all that type of stuff (I currently type on the HHKB Pro2 Type-S (like $400) <- crazy but worth every penny...

 

Take it easy!

 

-John

[Dave Osoff]

I'm infected for sure...

[Jazzmammal]

I guess I should run as fast as I can....since I have an addictive personality...

 

and also a gorgeous cherrywood B3 w/matching 147 and a PR-40 (all 9.5 out of 10s) so nothing will ever be good enough! LOL

 

Hi John and welcome to the forum. Yes there are fanatics and then there's FANATICS. I also used to have a B3 that I toured with for about 15 years so while I'm pretty well versed in how one sounds I'm not a true fanatic about it.

 

My take on this is the subtle differences between the top clones including this HX3 is about the same as the differences between real Hammonds. You and I both know no two classic Hammonds sounds the same and this goes for the Leslies as well. Every real Hammond setup sounds somewhat different just like grand pianos. If you are going to compare the sound of ANY clone to your perfect setup you will probably be disappointed in all of them because again even individual real Hammonds sound different from each other.

 

Check out Jim Alfredson's many YT vids comparing first the Hammond XK3 and then his SK1 to his 1957 killer C3. He produced some blind test vids and most of these fanatics right here on this forum could not tell the difference. Ask yourself this question:

 

How much room does that leave for these guys raving about how much better this HX3 is compared to an SK1 or Mojo? There are certainly big differences in the physical layout and appearance but the sound itself...? And, consider we're not talking about playing these instruments all alone in our homes, these are for live work on stage. To me all these little subtle things we love to obsess about go completely out the window on a gig. I use an SK1 with a Burn and to me it sounds great.

 

I love reading about this stuff, to me it's great fun and people are certainly free to spend their money however they want. Bottom line is we all have to be satisfied with our sound so if this particular piece of gear floats your boat, go for it.

 

Bob

[M_G]

 

Well said, Bob!

 

and yes its a disease, pandemic and can not be cured!!!

;-))))

 

a lot of great options on the market nowadays... the one that works for you does not mean it works for everyone.

It's a matter of taste, but the HX3: Lecker !!!

;-)

[mate stubb]

Check out Jim Alfredson's many YT vids comparing first the Hammond XK3 and then his SK1 to his 1957 killer C3. He produced some blind test vids and most of these fanatics right here on this forum could not tell the difference. Ask yourself this question:

 

How much room does that leave for these guys raving about how much better this HX3 is compared to an SK1 or Mojo?

 

It is certainly somewhat easier to fool a listener under controlled circumstances. I agree that Jim's tweaks come remarkably close. He is (if I remember correctly) playing the clone thru the same leslie as the real console, which helps a lot.

 

However, I find it is a lot harder to fool me when I am actually playing the instrument.

[Doerfler]

I find it is a lot harder to fool me when I am actually playing the instrument.

 

I bet.

[mate stubb]

That didn't come out the way I intended perhaps. Of course you know you are not playing a real console, but sometimes a good clone allows you to fly free and express yourself, without thinking the whole time "this tone sucks" or "the CV makes me seasick" etc.

 

Mitch played my controller and was inspired to get his own built from Hammond manuals. He will be controlling the HX3 module with it, and I am afraid that I will feel the need myself after I try it out.

[Dave Osoff]

Patiently awaiting the Mitch report... ;-)

[analogholic]

Patiently awaiting the Mitch report... ;-)

 

Mee too

[Mitch Towne]

Don't have it yet! I will check in when I do!

[jmolino]

So many ways of achieving....well...what is it exactly?

 

As my ol' grandpappy used to tell me - to make an informed decision, do the "ol' Ben Franklin" test... draw a line down a piece of paper and write "Pros" on the left and "Cons" on the right (I guess it doesn't matter what side). I'd like to modify this test....and instead of doing the pros and cons I'd like to do a "what is it we are chasing" test. This is not a clonewheel comparison....just generalizations of what is important.

 

On one side I'll put what is desirable, and on the other what is un-desirable. This might help me (hopefully others) decide what is important- and where to spend my limited money. For me:

 

"Desirable" / "Un-Desireable"

 

Easy Portability / HEAVY - need help to bring in equipment

Authentic Tone / CHEESEY tone

Good Leslie Sim / Unrealistic Leslie Sim

Good C/V / Poor C/V

Less components / many hookups, devices

Keyboard Action / Poor Feeling

Inspired play-ability / Uninspiring play-ability

less time to setup & tear down / more time

Less expensive / more expensive

Sending signal to house PA / dealing with mic'ing issues

 

Everyone may have a different list, but these seem to be what I am looking to achieve in a "closest to perfect" clonewheel setup (or else, I'd just bring the real thing and be done with it). Anyone else have some additions?

 

Thanks,

John

[HammondDave]

I guess I should run as fast as I can....since I have an addictive personality...

 

and also a gorgeous cherrywood B3 w/matching 147 and a PR-40 (all 9.5 out of 10s) so nothing will ever be good enough! LOL

 

Hi John and welcome to the forum. Yes there are fanatics and then there's FANATICS. I also used to have a B3 that I toured with for about 15 years so while I'm pretty well versed in how one sounds I'm not a true fanatic about it.

 

My take on this is the subtle differences between the top clones including this HX3 is about the same as the differences between real Hammonds. You and I both know no two classic Hammonds sounds the same and this goes for the Leslies as well. Every real Hammond setup sounds somewhat different just like grand pianos. If you are going to compare the sound of ANY clone to your perfect setup you will probably be disappointed in all of them because again even individual real Hammonds sound different from each other.

 

Check out Jim Alfredson's many YT vids comparing first the Hammond XK3 and then his SK1 to his 1957 killer C3. He produced some blind test vids and most of these fanatics right here on this forum could not tell the difference. Ask yourself this question:

 

How much room does that leave for these guys raving about how much better this HX3 is compared to an SK1 or Mojo? There are certainly big differences in the physical layout and appearance but the sound itself...? And, consider we're not talking about playing these instruments all alone in our homes, these are for live work on stage. To me all these little subtle things we love to obsess about go completely out the window on a gig. I use an SK1 with a Burn and to me it sounds great.

 

I love reading about this stuff, to me it's great fun and people are certainly free to spend their money however they want. Bottom line is we all have to be satisfied with our sound so if this particular piece of gear floats your boat, go for it.

 

Bob

 

Could not have said it better! Go for the best user interface and keyboard feel. Oh yeah, ease of service is another consideration. +!!!!

[Al Coda]

To me all these little subtle things we love to obsess about go completely out the window on a gig.

 

True !

 

I use an SK1 with a Burn and to me it sounds great.

Bob

 

Well, I´m interested in the 2-manual version of the UHL X3-2 build w/ HX3 engine.

In opposite to the p.ex. H/S SK-2,- it has 2 sets of drawbars plus 3 drawbars for the basspedal and not only 1 set of drawfaders, it has way better distortion/ overdrive, the C/V is better, the leslie sim is too and it has a FLAT top (no knobs/buttons on that surface!).

It´s the same enduser price in EUR and incl. VAT and until july 31 it´s EUR 100,- cheaper.

 

It´s 1.76 lbs heavier, but who cares when you DON´T need a Neo Ventilator or GSi Burn and the additional cables anymore.

 

The one and only disadvantage of the X3-2 is,- there are no extra sounds, which to me is no biggie because I DON´T WANT extra sounds in an organ.

 

But when comparing the H/S SK-1 w/ the UHL X3-1 single manual organs, it´s a different story because the UHL now is by ~25% more expensive.

 

You, in the US also might get some service problems and I don´t.

But I also think the HX3 circuit board and extension board as well as scan boards and all the other except the keybeds is so small and lightweight, they can be shipped by plane quickly.

It would be not more complex than repairing a Crumar Mojo over the atlantic and possibly the service for me in northern germany is the same compared to international because the UHL company is in far south germany, so they´d ship the parts to me too, but not by plane and by groundpost instead.

 

A.C.

 

 

[Dave Osoff]

I am considering selling my SK1-73 and probably my old Voce V5+ and getting the X3-1 or X3-2. No information is available on shipping costs to the USA at this point but I would assume based on previous overseas purchases that the VAT that is included in the end user Euro prices would be discounted from the total prior to shipping to the USA, thus knocking 19 % or 20 % off the pre shipping price, correct?

[Al Coda]

...I would assume based on previous overseas purchases that the VAT that is included in the end user Euro prices would be discounted from the total prior to shipping to the USA, thus knocking 19 % or 20 % off the pre shipping price, correct?

 

No idea, sorry.

I´d send UHL Instruments a mail and ask.

 

A.C.

[Dave Osoff]

Al - I traded emails with Wolfgang and he said he'd get back to me in a few weeks after he sorts out the rules and pricing for US shipping...

[TomKittel]

Check out Jim Alfredson's many YT vids comparing first the Hammond XK3 and then his SK1 to his 1957 killer C3. He produced some blind test vids and most of these fanatics right here on this forum could not tell the difference. Ask yourself this question:

 

How much room does that leave for these guys raving about how much better this HX3 is compared to an SK1 or Mojo?

 

Bob

 

Indeed Jim Alfredson sounds awesome on his SK2. Leaving aside that Jim is an outstanding organ player I was always wondering why I wasn't able to get such great Hammond tone out of the SK1 myself. To me the SK1 always left something to be desired. Without a Leslie or Vent I found it nearly unusable. It sounded best through my Leslie 147 of course. The Vent also substantially improved the tone but it still wasn't there, especially not in the upper two octaves of the keyboard. The SK1 never spit out such a great fat rock tone like in this video:

 

 

My new Uhl-Instruments X3 which is based on an individualized HX3 sound engine delivers that sound right out of the box. No matter which stereo amp or speakers I play it through, it just delivers fat authentic Hammond/Leslie tone in spades. No additional rotary sim needed. For me the Uhl X3 is a game changer - just like Aspen's CPS Spacestation V3.

 

JMTC