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#2690417 - 05/23/15 05:59 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Outkaster]
Joe Muscara Offline
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Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 18872
Loc: Heaven, Hell, or Houston
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Well when I can buy it from Sweetwater or off the shelf I will be convinced.
Convinced of what?

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KC Island
#2690427 - 05/23/15 06:24 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: HammondDave]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3852
Loc: The Rig
Originally Posted By: Hammonddave

Leave it to the Germans to use a beer bottle as a nice percussive instrument.


I think it was wine ...
To my ears, it sounded a bit more expensive.

cool

A.C.

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#2690510 - 05/23/15 11:17 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Craylyn]
analogholic Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 778
Originally Posted By: C Jerel
I emailed Wolfgang and he did reply right away.

We use the HX3-Software but motified – we have an own Tapering – the X3 has in the upper octaves more power/loudness."


So if I would get the HX3 Mk4 module, it´s possible to fiddle around with the tapering?

When I heard these new UHL demos, my reaction is that the HX3 engine is the one that sounds the least fake/plastic of all the clones I´ve heard so far.

Thought about selling my NE3 to get the NE5...but I don´t think I can do that after I heard this.
My NE3 with a Vent II can scream yes, but still, I won´t get rid of the "plastic" sound.

Don´t think I can resist the HX3 now smile

Eagerly waiting for the detailed "Mitch Towne Report" smile


Edited by analogholic (05/23/15 11:23 AM)
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#2690512 - 05/23/15 11:22 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: analogholic]
analogholic Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 778
Btw, can I control the HX3 from the NE3?
As like changing the CC on the HX3 so it correlates with what the NE3 sends?
Not ideal since the NE3 has no drawbars but anyway...
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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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#2690519 - 05/23/15 11:42 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: analogholic]
Dave Osoff Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/14
Posts: 291
Loc: Massachusetts
You can make a midi cc set for the HX3 that will work with the NE3. I made one for my NS2. The problems I ran into with the Nord Stage and the HX3 is that I could only use the global midi channel to get the live drawbars happening. The slot A and B midi channels would not work for that, hence no splits possible with live HX3 drawbars and Electro sounds. Maybe the NE3 has a different architecture?

Also the Nord does not allow high trigger point for external sounds. I've been asking Nord to update that in the software for several years. Also on the electro, there is only left and right outputs, can you turn off the internal organ sounds and still use the drawbars and Nord outputs? Not sure.


Edited by Dave Osoff (05/23/15 11:44 AM)
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#2690521 - 05/23/15 11:47 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: analogholic]
M_G Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 504
Loc: Germany
analogholic,

you can download a tapering tool (HX tapering.exe for Win) from the keyboardpartner page !!!

The HX3 has a warm full bodied sound, very impressive. But can be an agressive beast !
;-))


Edited by M_G (05/23/15 11:49 AM)
_________________________
Studio: Hammond XK5+XLK5, Roland FP90, Roland FA07, Prophet 6, HX3-Expander, Neo Vent 1, etc etc...
Live: Uhl X3-2, Vent2, Tall+Fat, Kurzweil Artis 7, Leslie 760 (11pin-mod), KP500S

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#2690524 - 05/23/15 11:53 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: M_G]
Dave Osoff Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/14
Posts: 291
Loc: Massachusetts
I'll need to try that tapering tool!
_________________________
Nord Stage 2, Kronos, UHL X3-1, Receptor VIP2, HX3 Expander, DMC-122, Virus B, A70, Ventilator, SS V.3

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#2690529 - 05/23/15 12:04 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Outkaster]
Pa Gherkin Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 552
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Well when I can buy it from Sweetwater or off the shelf I will be convinced.



I get what you're saying having learned some expensive lessons from owning botique gear that didn't have a repair/support network in the U.S. Having to ship gear to another continent for repair or warranty service no longer fits into my plans. The Uhl organs look very interesting to me and if they establish a U.S. repair presence my interest would truly be piqued.

Also,I'd like to hear a demo with fast internal rotary,no c/v,all drawbars full out with chords held around middle C. That would give a very telling impression of the internal sim. Almost anything sounds decent with 888,percussion and slow rotor. I must say though,the Uhl dual manual model looks very impressive. Being about 6 inches longer than tha Mojo,C2D, and SK 2 makes it look a lot less dinky. Also,hooray for 2 sets of drawbars.

If they make these servicable and easily available in the U.S. I'd be very interested. It looks like what I wish Hammond would do as a followup to the XK3C.

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#2690530 - 05/23/15 12:04 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Dave Osoff]
analogholic Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 778
Originally Posted By: Dave Osoff
You can make a midi cc set for the HX3 that will work with the NE3. I made one for my NS2. The problems I ran into with the Nord Stage and the HX3 is that I could only use the global midi channel to get the live drawbars happening. The slot A and B midi channels would not work for that, hence no splits possible with live HX3 drawbars and Electro sounds. Maybe the NE3 has a different architecture?

Also the Nord does not allow high trigger point for external sounds. I've been asking Nord to update that in the software for several years. Also on the electro, there is only left and right outputs, can you turn off the internal organ sounds and still use the drawbars and Nord outputs? Not sure.


Thanks man!

Yeah, gotta try to split the NE3 (local off) with a midi patchbay to see if it works that way
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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
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#2690531 - 05/23/15 12:05 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: M_G]
analogholic Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 778
Originally Posted By: M_G
analogholic,

you can download a tapering tool (HX tapering.exe for Win) from the keyboardpartner page !!!

The HX3 has a warm full bodied sound, very impressive. But can be an agressive beast !
;-))


Vielen Dank smile
_________________________
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

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#2690535 - 05/23/15 12:20 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Pa Gherkin]
Outkaster Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 5664
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Pa Gherkin
Originally Posted By: Outkaster
Well when I can buy it from Sweetwater or off the shelf I will be convinced.



I get what you're saying having learned some expensive lessons from owning botique gear that didn't have a repair/support network in the U.S. Having to ship gear to another continent for repair or warranty service no longer fits into my plans. The Uhl organs look very interesting to me and if they establish a U.S. repair presence my interest would truly be piqued.

Also,I'd like to hear a demo with fast internal rotary,no c/v,all drawbars full out with chords held around middle C. That would give a very telling impression of the internal sim. Almost anything sounds decent with 888,percussion and slow rotor. I must say though,the Uhl dual manual model looks very impressive. Being about 6 inches longer than tha Mojo,C2D, and SK 2 makes it look a lot less dinky. Also,hooray for 2 sets of drawbars.

If they make these servicable and easily available in the U.S. I'd be very interested. It looks like what I wish Hammond would do as a followup to the XK3C.


Exactly my point. If something is not accessible, has a shitty build quality or is not readily available it doesn't matter how good it is or how many threads show up about it. Look at the KeyB fiasco, what a pain the ass that was.


Edited by Outkaster (05/23/15 01:14 PM)
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#2690641 - 05/24/15 04:58 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: M_G]
bill bosco Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/14
Posts: 312
that 3rd bass drawbar on the x3-2 must be to bring up the
pedal bass onto the lower manual ? is there a dedicated
control for reverb ?

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#2690691 - 05/24/15 08:03 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: bill bosco]
mate stubb Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15090
Originally Posted By: bill bosco
that 3rd bass drawbar on the x3-2 must be to bring up the
pedal bass onto the lower manual ?


Pedal sustain.
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#2690708 - 05/24/15 09:46 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: mate stubb]
bourniplus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 480
Loc: Québec
I've looked at the keyboardpartner site but I'm still wondering: with an HX3 module and the appropriate scanning board, could this system reproduce the "9-contacts per key" sound, when retrofitted to an old organ manual? As far as I know, it would be the only -affordable- way to have this feature in a clone.
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#2690723 - 05/24/15 10:58 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Dave Osoff]
bill bosco Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/14
Posts: 312
my nord c1 outputs midi at the higher trigger point ( that's
the default mode I guess ) , been using it with a keyb expander . you have to go into the midi edit menu to get
either manual to transmit velocity ( which also lowers the
trigger point ). problem with the nord is that the higher trigger point which is the one I have to use , is too high
for my taste . the lower trigger is too low for organ .

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#2690766 - 05/24/15 02:30 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: bourniplus]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3852
Loc: The Rig
Originally Posted By: bourniplus
... with an HX3 module and the appropriate scanning board, could this system reproduce the "9-contacts per key" sound, when retrofitted to an old organ manual? As far as I know, it would be the only -affordable- way to have this feature in a clone.


From HX3 engine description:

<<<... and of course the random mechanically breaking of the 549 key contacts per manual, which produces the typical Hammond-"click.">>>

That means, regardless what you buy, the expander (which is MIDI), the XB2 retrofit or the HX3 engine board (w/ Fatar scan boards),- the HX3 engine mimiks ALL the existing key contacts of the real thing.

No special or "vintage" keyboard/manual required.

A.C.

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#2690781 - 05/24/15 03:26 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Al Coda]
bourniplus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 480
Loc: Québec
Originally Posted By: Al Coda
the HX3 engine mimiks ALL the existing key contacts of the real thing.
A.C.

I understand that it can use velocity to approximate the 9-contacts effect, but if the keyboard has only one "switch" per key, there is no way to really duplicate the behavior of the 9 "switches" in a Hammond organ, even with velocity. Unless maybe it has a kind of optical sensing device... What I wondered is whether the HX3 could ultimately be connected to an old Hammond keyboard with 9-busbars/drawbars and operate in the same way, or if only one busbar is used.
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#2690814 - 05/24/15 07:21 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: bourniplus]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3852
Loc: The Rig
Originally Posted By: bourniplus

What I wondered is whether the HX3 could ultimately be connected to an old Hammond keyboard with 9-busbars/drawbars and operate in the same way, or if only one busbar is used.


That´s a question for HX3 discussion forum ...
Maybe "bovist" (Carsten Meyer/ developer) has the answer.

There´s nowhere mentioned the 9-keycontact simulation doesn´t work when using Scan61 boards for single contact keybeds.

A.C.

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#2690827 - 05/24/15 08:43 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Al Coda]
mate stubb Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15090
The key word here is "simulation". Simulating the separate closings of the contacts by delaying some of the harmonics is a simulation, and has been done by many including VB-3 for many years.

It gives a satisfying response 99% of the time when you press a key at normal playing speed. But it is not accurate to a real console, where you can barely press a key down and only get 1 harmonic to sound.
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Jazzooo: "Yes, there is an appeal to having your entire catalog on a few little pieces of dark plastic that are easily lost under the seat."

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#2690885 - 05/25/15 03:49 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: mate stubb]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3852
Loc: The Rig
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
The key word here is "simulation". Simulating the separate closings of the contacts by delaying some of the harmonics is a simulation, and has been done by many including VB-3 for many years.

It gives a satisfying response 99% of the time when you press a key at normal playing speed. But it is not accurate to a real console, where you can barely press a key down and only get 1 harmonic to sound.


Yes, I know what you´re talking about and because I don´t know how it is done w/ the HX3, only Carsten Meyer will have an answer, maybe M.G. too because he´s an enthusiast.

IIRC, in the past (possibly early developement of HX3) I´ve seen a short demo where someone pushed the key down slowly and the single harmonics were audible similar to a console where single contacts closed one after the other.
Can be they´ll need at least 2 contacts, maybe #1 and #9 for a original Hammond key, for this always and a single contact consequently produces a constant time/ random sound behaviour of the simulation.

Anyway, every one should know how important this feature is for himself and to which degree.
I´m pretty sure there will rarely be a situation I have to press a key VERY slowly where you hear single harmonics one after the other clearly in a musical context.
For me, it is just only a, possibly important for authenticity, "nitpick" detail test,- not more or less.

When the keyclick sounds right for me in a normal playing situation, that´s good, at least for me.

HX3, to my ears, sounds extremely good,- incl. all simulations.
It sounds better than any clone I ever played and it also seems sounding better than many spinet and console Hammonds I touched in my life and it also seems to be relatively maintenace free.

Now I get that out of a stereo output of a ~37lbs 2-manual box which (hurray !!!) comes w/ a flat top, partially supporting stacked keyboards like my PC361 and I don´t need a Vent or s##t in addition.

Well, that´s what I waited for since decades.

A.C.

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#2690907 - 05/25/15 07:11 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Delaware Dave]
Jg53 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 93
Loc: Pennsylvania USA
Hey Dave I just ordered an HX3 module and will be playing it through some HK Elements speakers and a leslie 145. Assuming you live nearby in Delaware you could come over and hear for yourself, bring your vent to compare. John G. 53jjg@comcast.net.

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#2690913 - 05/25/15 07:35 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Jg53]
mate stubb Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15090
Looking forward to trying Mitch's rig when he gets it delivered.
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Moe
---
Jazzooo: "Yes, there is an appeal to having your entire catalog on a few little pieces of dark plastic that are easily lost under the seat."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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#2690955 - 05/25/15 09:32 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Al Coda]
M_G Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 504
Loc: Germany

there was an opto scan system for the HX3 developed by blue analog sound systems
that simulates the 9 key contacts.
the developer (geritt) suffers from cancer and so the system is no longer
supported and available, his online shop and website is closed.

So the "realistic" key click seems to be the last open point
for the clone wheels....ok the newB3s....
but I wouldn't pay 20000euros for the key system and the sound engine
cant compare to a mojo, keyb or the X3!!!

the HX3 plays really nice, key click is great.
so the 0.5% remains to the original.
and the onboard leslie is killer...

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
The key word here is "simulation". Simulating the separate closings of the contacts by delaying some of the harmonics is a simulation, and has been done by many including VB-3 for many years.

It gives a satisfying response 99% of the time when you press a key at normal playing speed. But it is not accurate to a real console, where you can barely press a key down and only get 1 harmonic to sound.


Yes, I know what you´re talking about and because I don´t know how it is done w/ the HX3, only Carsten Meyer will have an answer, maybe M.G. too because he´s an enthusiast.

IIRC, in the past (possibly early developement of HX3) I´ve seen a short demo where someone pushed the key down slowly and the single harmonics were audible similar to a console where single contacts closed one after the other.
Can be they´ll need at least 2 contacts, maybe #1 and #9 for a original Hammond key, for this always and a single contact consequently produces a constant time/ random sound behaviour of the simulation.

Anyway, every one should know how important this feature is for himself and to which degree.
I´m pretty sure there will rarely be a situation I have to press a key VERY slowly where you hear single harmonics one after the other clearly in a musical context.
For me, it is just only a, possibly important for authenticity, "nitpick" detail test,- not more or less.

When the keyclick sounds right for me in a normal playing situation, that´s good, at least for me.

HX3, to my ears, sounds extremely good,- incl. all simulations.
It sounds better than any clone I ever played and it also seems sounding better than many spinet and console Hammonds I touched in my life and it also seems to be relatively maintenace free.

Now I get that out of a stereo output of a ~37lbs 2-manual box which (hurray !!!) comes w/ a flat top, partially supporting stacked keyboards like my PC361 and I don´t need a Vent or s##t in addition.

Well, that´s what I waited for since decades.

A.C.
_________________________
Studio: Hammond XK5+XLK5, Roland FP90, Roland FA07, Prophet 6, HX3-Expander, Neo Vent 1, etc etc...
Live: Uhl X3-2, Vent2, Tall+Fat, Kurzweil Artis 7, Leslie 760 (11pin-mod), KP500S

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#2691038 - 05/25/15 02:14 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: M_G]
Karnevil8 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 22
How does HX3 compare to Nord's C2D? (Distortion, percussion, leslie, keyclick, vibrato and chorus, tonewheel simulation etc.) Thanks!

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#2691058 - 05/25/15 03:34 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Karnevil8]
hardware Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 979
Loc: Nashville, TN.
Brotha Man AC..
I am going to buy one of these tomorrow if you can please answer a few quick questions, as you are familiar with Scope XITE-1s.

Is it safe to assume the Bass Output and Rotary output can be used as dual mono outs or a stereo pair...?

Also, you know I use CC2x2s and gang together custom drawbar swells using a single Expression Pedal.

I just want to know that I can get stereo out/dual mono, and also be able to assign my choice of CC's to each drawbar on the lower and upper manuals.
If I cannot assign CC#'s I can always take their CC#'s and modify my controllers, but I can't seem to find any MIDI documentation.

Ankyu...


image hosting adult
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#2691061 - 05/25/15 03:49 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: hardware]
Dave Osoff Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/14
Posts: 291
Loc: Massachusetts
Here's a link to the Midi Expander module manual; all the specs and CC information is in there. You can create custom CC sets using the Remote software.

http://wiki.keyboardpartner.de/index.php?title=HX3_MIDI_expander_module
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Nord Stage 2, Kronos, UHL X3-1, Receptor VIP2, HX3 Expander, DMC-122, Virus B, A70, Ventilator, SS V.3

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#2691068 - 05/25/15 05:08 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Jg53]
Delaware Dave Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 2616
Loc: Take a guess ....
Originally Posted By: Jg53
Hey Dave I just ordered an HX3 module and will be playing it through some HK Elements speakers and a leslie 145. Assuming you live nearby in Delaware you could come over and hear for yourself, bring your vent to compare. John G. 53jjg@comcast.net.

Hi John, thanks for the offer. Where do you live in PA?

I think that the HX3 will be my next purchase. Most clones are brittle in the upper register, including my XM2 module. The C/V on the XM2 is too washy, C3 is impossible to listen to, I'm usually using C2 and sometimes even C1. I actually went back to my Voce V5+ the last few gigs; in some respects it just sounds better than the XM2, it's more mellow than the XM2 and closer to my 57 B3. The XM2 sounds closer in brightness to my 69 L100P.

The HX3 sounds great especially in the upper registers. I'm hoping that the leslie sim is good enough so that the Vent is unnecessary. I also own a Voce Midi Drawbar unit which is compatible with the HX3. The only thing I have to figure out is how to engage C/V on the lower manual as the Voce doesn't have an upper/lower C/V control. I have an email into Carsten to understand how to trigger C/V on/off independently via a CC control message for the lower manual. It's only a matter of time before I pull the trigger on the purchase. I prefer a midi unit rather than another 'keyboard' so it is a perfect solution for me.
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57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; dyinbreedband.com; thewildthingsrock.webs.com

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#2691120 - 05/25/15 07:48 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Delaware Dave]
hardware Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 979
Loc: Nashville, TN.
Thanks Dave.
Everything I need now.

Hope the Leslie emu is good.
I got over not "feeling" the Doppler effect long ago.
Just hope it sounds great from FOH where the action is.

Cheerz..
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#2691135 - 05/25/15 09:00 PM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Delaware Dave]
Dave Osoff Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/14
Posts: 291
Loc: Massachusetts
Hey Dave,
I can answer part of your question. Carsten is in some kind of medical rehab til mid June, so I don't know accessible he is right now. Other folks on the Keyboardpartner forum are also very helpful with midi questions.

The V5+ is compatible with the Voce Custom CC set on the HX3 - I just looked at the Midi drawbar specs and it looks like the V5 uses the same midi map.

But you are right - the V5+ C/V on/off button only controls the Upper Vibrato. However you can assign the lower vibrato on/off to another button or knob using the HX3 Remote software and writing a Custom CC set. I just tried it out with my V5+ and assigned the Lower Vibrato On/Off to the leakage knob and that works perfectly now. There is a csv file in the remote software folder called "HX3 Buttons". It lists some of the parameters not found in the master organ parameters list. You assign whatever Midi CC# to the given parameter, write it to the custom CC set and you're good to go.

901=Perc Soft
902=Perc Fast
903=Perc 3rd
904=Vib On Upper
905=Vib On Lower
906=Leslie Run
907=Leslie Slow/Fast
914=Reverb I
915=Reverb II
916=Jack Config A/B
917=Keyboard Split On/Off

Another workaround would be to write a preset into the HX3 that does nothing except turn the lower vibrato on. This is a menu item, so that also would be easy to do.

There is one idiosyncrasy I have found with the Voce V5+ controlling the HX3 that I have not experienced with any other controller I have used with it. The drawbars, when pulled out and pushed all the way the way back in register a setting of 1, not 0. This is something weird with the Voce Midi CC. I don't have this problem with my SK1, Nord, or Crumar controlling the HX3. You can always manually or remotely change the volume from 1 to 0 or make a preset, but I haven't solved that one midi issue yet. Otherwise the V5+ works great controlling the HX3. Hope this helps smile


Edited by Dave Osoff (05/25/15 09:01 PM)
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Nord Stage 2, Kronos, UHL X3-1, Receptor VIP2, HX3 Expander, DMC-122, Virus B, A70, Ventilator, SS V.3

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#2691225 - 05/26/15 08:47 AM Re: UHL organ w/ HX3 inside [Re: Dave Osoff]
simajanpa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 228
Loc: Rhode Island
Since this discussion has turned somewhat to MIDI drawbar control, I was wondering if the 9 drawbar faders on a Kurzweil Artis 7 would be able to control an HX3 module?

Sorry this sort of thing is way out of my wheel house.
I'm a plug and play sort of person.

PS: I don't own either of these pieces, but thought it would make a well rounded package.

Thanks
Paul
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