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Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back


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So, sorry if this has been addressed before but cabling question. What is the issue with running the keyboard 1/4 jacks into the left/right of the SSV3, and then just running a single 1/4 TRS from the sub out on the SSV3 into just the A input side (XLR end of the same cable) of the Behringer 1200? Do you lose anything by just using the A input?

Mark

 

If you send to the BD1200-D first, you get the benefit of its built-in high-pass filter. That means that the sub handles the low frequencies, and they don't get sent to the SSv3. Since the SSv3 has a modest 8" driver, it has to work extra hard on those lower frequencies.

 

The net result is that you definitely get more volume and less potential for distortion. It's noticeable in most gig situations, especially if you're doing bass lines, etc. A nice upgrade for $299, plus cables.

 

(the never ending SSv3 thread)

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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(the never ending SSv3 thread)

 

Could this thread's length be closing in on the Roland VR-09 thread?

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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Thomann answered to me (andree)they had heard nothing about this product and manufacturer! This answer is from Simon Feig/ PA department 9.3.2015. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere? Just trying to get SS v3 quickly :)

 

Just a thought: maybe you need to talk with somebody in the keyboards and synthesizers department instead of a PA guy?

 

My Euro Early Adopters, please don't worry. The SS is coming to Thomann, but the sales guys probably do not know about it yet because it is not in the warehouse.

 

I can assure you that the order has been placed and I already sent a sample for their import department to get the certification process going. But the order is placed and we are in production already. I believe delivery will be late June.

 

If you really wanted to ask anyone there about the order status, and when they will set their prices and begin to take orders, I would check with the Studio/Synth department. It was the head buyer of that department that gave me the order at NAMM show. His name is Bernd Siegismund, so maybe ask your sales guy to speak with Bernd (I would feel uncomfortable to give you all his contacts here on the forum, he is not a sales guy anyway). However they may not be ready with all their calculations to quote a price just yet, I am sure they will announce this when the shipment is confirmed to be on it's way. Until them, I am sure they would rather sell you something they can "deliver"...so they usually keep the sales guys in the dark until it is on the shelf (very understandable)

 

But also, as I have mentioned before, I have already directly supplied many 230v SS v.3 to Early Adopters in four countries in Europe, with satisfied customers...a few on this forum. The price is the same as Sweetwater ($749) but I give you a $50 discount on your shipping (USPS averages $150 to Europe, so that adds average $100) plus I toss in a $50 cover for no charge. This takes 8-10 days, but there is an Express service that takes 3-5 days (for about 25% more $)

 

But as soon as Thomann gets his first delivery I will stop supplying directly into Europe. FYI, as of today I have about six 230v units available for immediate shipping, but likely they will be gone in a few weeks. Then I have another (larger) shipment due in end of April.

Hammond A100 w/ 2x Leslie 122, Leslie 145 w/ combo pedal, Casio P5S, SS3, Groove Tubes SFX G5 cab + CPS/QSC RM4500 KB amp, 1955 Steinway 48" studio upright.
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Aspen! Ok, thanks for Your reply and information! I think now its better me to wait sometime before contacting Thomann. Let them make their calculations etc. in peace! Good news are that SS is anyway on its way to Europe, so I'll be soon getting this wonderful product I have been waiting already 64 years :)
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So, sorry if this has been addressed before but cabling question. What is the issue with running the keyboard 1/4 jacks into the left/right of the SSV3, and then just running a single 1/4 TRS from the sub out on the SSV3 into just the A input side (XLR end of the same cable) of the Behringer 1200? Do you lose anything by just using the A input?

Mark

 

If you send to the BD1200-D first, you get the benefit of its built-in high-pass filter. That means that the sub handles the low frequencies, and they don't get sent to the SSv3. Since the SSv3 has a modest 8" driver, it has to work extra hard on those lower frequencies.

 

The net result is that you definitely get more volume and less potential for distortion. It's noticeable in most gig situations, especially if you're doing bass lines, etc. A nice upgrade for $299, plus cables.

 

(the never ending SSv3 thread)

 

And the Behringer sends L&R pre-crossover to FOH.

 

 

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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One of my guitar players has a Behringer 31 band stereo EQ he's giving me for cheap. I finally had a chance to look it up, it's got a mono sub out with a variable crossover dial. Might be a good solution for using my K10 as a sub on some gigs. mixer out- eq in, stereo outs to the SS3, sub out to the K10.

Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1

Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6

www.bksband.com

www.echoesrocks.com

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(the never ending SSv3 thread)

 

Could this thread's length be closing in on the Roland VR-09 thread?

 

actually, I was thinking just that when I opened this thread again and saw David had posted my thoughts yesterday. Always a day late and a dollar short, that's me. I just might have to get me one of these gadgets this year, I'm feeling left out. :laugh:

:nopity:
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I spent a couple of hours this afternoon trying out the SpaceStation at drawback's place. He has the SS and the Behringer sub and it sounds amazing! Thanks, drawback, for the opportunity to hear it "in the flesh". Insta-GAS!
Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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So, sorry if this has been addressed before but cabling question. What is the issue with running the keyboard 1/4 jacks into the left/right of the SSV3, and then just running a single 1/4 TRS from the sub out on the SSV3 into just the A input side (XLR end of the same cable) of the Behringer 1200? Do you lose anything by just using the A input?

Mark

 

If you send to the BD1200-D first, you get the benefit of its built-in high-pass filter. That means that the sub handles the low frequencies, and they don't get sent to the SSv3. Since the SSv3 has a modest 8" driver, it has to work extra hard on those lower frequencies.

 

The net result is that you definitely get more volume and less potential for distortion. It's noticeable in most gig situations, especially if you're doing bass lines, etc. A nice upgrade for $299, plus cables.

 

(the never ending SSv3 thread)

 

And the Behringer sends L&R pre-crossover to FOH.

 

Wait, that's potentially game-changing for me! Let me make sure I have this. Are you saying that the THRU OUTs on the B1200D can be sent to the FOH carrying the full (pre-crossover) signal, while the LINE OUTs go to the SSV3 for me stage mix? Eliminating any need for a direct box anywhere? That could solve so much for me. Do I have that right?

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Eliminating any need for a direct box anywhere? That could solve so much for me. Do I have that right?

 

No. Everybody always wants to eliminate their direct box, but the direct box has the ground lift, and conversion to mic level that you need to send it down a FOH snake.

Moe

---

 

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There's no ground lift, but the signals from the "Thru" A/B outputs on the Behringer are balanced.

 

MonksDream pleasure was indeed mine: I got to hear the gear from not so near!

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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What brand of cables did you go with? Are you satisfied with them. It seems like all the 1/4 TS to XLR cables are pretty low quality. I don't want to mortgage the farm, but I don't want to buy junk either. Any suggestions for a "good" quality 1/4 TS to XLR that will do the trick?

 

Might want to try these.

 

The "room to bloom" statement is very true. I'm using the SS V.3 as an acoustic guitar amp as well as the sound system for a trio ( 2 guitar + bass/no keys).

 

I want the mixer right by me and the SS at a distance. I'm using the 25' female XLR to 1/4" TRS cables to do this run.

See: http://www.monoprice.com/Search/Index?keyword=Female+XLR+to+TRS+1%2F4%22+

 

No noise; no issues. These are EXTREMELY well made cables! Now go check on what Sweetwater (and I am a big Sweetwater fan) will charge you for a cable of that length. Say what you will, but IMO Monoprice does cables really well. If not they'll take 'em back - no questions asked. Can't go wrong

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Eliminating any need for a direct box anywhere? That could solve so much for me. Do I have that right?

 

No. Everybody always wants to eliminate their direct box, but the direct box has the ground lift, and conversion to mic level that you need to send it down a FOH snake.

 

Sorry but I disagree.

 

a)

Since "some time" ( :D ),- analog and digital FOH consoles offer balanced line inputs or,- a -20dB pad switch for the mic inputs handling line signals that way.

b)

the FOH snake itself is just only a "balanced wired" cable and doesn´t know if there´s a mic-level or line level signal running down,- only the receiving device recognizes which signal arrives.

c)

I doubt you´ll need a groundlift switch using balanced line-thru connectors of a device, it already receiving a balanced line signal and to connect via stage-box w/ a balanced line-input of the FOH console.

 

Most standard DI-boxes are for different purpose.

You normally go into the DI-box w/ a low level unbalanced signal, often coming form an electromagnetic instrument,- then you go balanced mic-level out to elsewhere as well as unbalanced out to your amp w/ HiZ input simultaneously.

In this case, the groundlift switch makes sense.

 

Example #1:

Even when my rig was completely unbalanced in the past,- I ran unbalanced line-out from Roland M160 line mixer into a special transformer balanced DI box accepting unbalanced line-level input.

There were unbalanced parallel outs as well as mic level XLR outs to FOH,- and ground lift switches for L and R output channels.

I never used these ground lift switches to my own surprise!

 

But when I had electromagnetic instruments like Rhodes and Clavinet in the ballpark as well as stomp boxes and tube amps,- the standard DI boxes were essential.

 

Yes, I know there are modern DI-box products out there p.ex. Radial, but why buying something when not urgently necessary ?

 

Example #2:

All of my electronic keyboards and MIDI modules offer line-level outputs,- and they all are too hot for standard DI-box inputs so I´d have to reduce the output signal of the keyboard(s) using it´s master volume knob.

I hate that.

 

So, I did it and eliminated DI boxes from my rig since I run balanced line-out to FOH, recording facility or elsewhere and never had any issues.

 

A.C.

 

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A.C.

 

Sorry to disagree, but my experience agrees with Dave's (mate stubb). You're of course correct that a balanced snake doesn't care if signal is mic-level or line-level - but we're talking about the board inputs. There have been PLENTY of times I've needed to engage my DI's pad for the sake of FOH.

 

In addition, there have been plenty of times I've been thankful for the ground lift on my DI as well.

 

Now, I may play lower-rent venues than others, but my experience with my rig would wholeheartedly agree that level attenuation and ground lift are two of the very big reasons I always bring my DI.

 

Another is it can always be used as a weapon.

..
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Is it really necessary to carry baffles for use with the ssv3?

 

In a word, no. The amp sounds amazing without them.

 

But it is certainly true that getting the side speaker to reflect off a hard surface in close proximity accentuates the "bloom"...especially from the player's perspective.

 

I really like the sound of the amp sitting in a corner. Without a corner, any hard surface will help. Could be an instrument case. Or could be a piece of plexi gaff taped to the rear corner. Or it could be a baffle you DIY'd.

 

But my point is I wouldn't say the amp doesn't sound great without a DIY baffle.

 

More importantly, once you get out to the audience's perspective, I'm not sure a baffle matters at all, frankly. Seems to me that remains to be empirically tested. Maybe someone can comment on that...

..
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The baffle is not necessary. It's good for some situations but not all (I use it mostly at church & that works great). I'm also facing it down on a small amp stand & the reflection off the hard floor & wall also has a nice wash.

It's what works for your specific needs... it's all good.

You don't know you're in the dark until you're in the light.
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First Gig Report!

 

Holy crap. What a difference.

 

I just played with a blues band to kick off a three-day music festival with a ton of incredible guest stars from Austin, including Marcia Ball and a piano player Red something who plays with Eric Burden and a bunch of other cats.

 

My axe was my Hammond SK1, which I still find pretty remarkable. Room accommodates about 150 and it was packed tonight, with loud and happy people. It's an upscale bar and restaurant and I play there at least twice a month, either with this group or a trio.

 

Tonight the keyboard sound filled the room without being too loud. Our drummer, Rick Shlosser, who has played with Van Morrison and everybody else turned to me after the second song and said is that your new amp? I said yes and he said "Pretty fucking amazing."

 

I played all night, but a few times I got up to let Marcia or someone else play and I walked around the room. I wouldn't really describe it as stereo but I would say the sound is 3 dimensional, fat but clear, and no matter where I went I could hear my keyboard beautifully. Everything was louder than it normally is, but that happens with jam sessions. Still, the SK1 cut through nicely. The Hammond Leslie simulation sounded ferocious. My stereo panned rhodes patch was gorgeous and lush. The electric pianos, Wurlitzer and so on were super cool. I'm not crazy about the acoustic piano sound on the Hammond, and if everyone stopped playing and it was just the piano, I have to say it was the best I've heard them sound but still lacking. But with the band playing? Fat and full and punchy and perfect.

 

I wish it weighed less than 40 pounds, but that's life. I will never touch another keyboard amp, at least another mono keyboard amp while I have this thing. It got super high marks from another friend of mine who has been the guitar tech for Keith Richards for 35 years. And as I was loading up, the sax player came up to me and said "you were playing through that all night? Nothing else?" I confirmed that and he said "you weren't in the PA system?" I said no.

 

I did use a plywood trifold because I wasn't against a wall and I was nervous about blasting out the drummer, but I'm pretty sure I could have done without it.

 

Thumbs way up!

Doug Robinson

www.dougrobinson.com

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A.C.

 

Sorry to disagree, but my experience agrees with Dave's (mate stubb). You're of course correct that a balanced snake doesn't care if signal is mic-level or line-level - but we're talking about the board inputs.

 

Tim, under point a) in m former post I was talking about FOH console inputs too.

I also hope Mate doesn´t take it as an offense when I mentioned the balanced snake,- I just only did because he mentioned "mic level that you need to send it down a FOH snake".

In fact I´m aware of Mate´s tech knowledge and skills and have lots of respect.

 

There have been PLENTY of times I've needed to engage my DI's pad for the sake of FOH.

In addition, there have been plenty of times I've been thankful for the ground lift on my DI as well.

 

Yes, but was it really that kind of scenario we get when running keyboards w/ their balanced or unbalanced outputs into a (small) line-mixer offering balanced inputs, the mixer´s balanced outputs running into the Behringer 1200D Pro sub, the line-thrus of the sub running into the CPS SSv3?

 

I understood that was the question here,- if the balanced line-thruputs of the Behringer sub replace a standard DI box and I think they do because there´s the option to activate -10 or -20dB pad on the FOH consoles mic input or going into a dedicated line input.

I also doubt you´d pickup hum or any HF on the short cable run from a unbalanced-line-out keyboard into a (small) line-mixer and if, the balanced outputs of the line mixer will cancel it out.

For sure you won´t pick up any hum or HF when running balanced from a keyboard into your submixer already.

 

I don´t see a reason adding an expensive active stereo- or 2 mono DI boxes to that setup, sorry.

There are much cheaper solutions to fight w/ a groundloop when it happens.

 

Now, I may play lower-rent venues than others, but my experience with my rig would wholeheartedly agree that level attenuation and ground lift are two of the very big reasons I always bring my DI.

 

Another is it can always be used as a weapon.

 

Well, yes,- but you know it´s all caused by old fart FOH "engineers" who want you running all in mono (and best "dry" too) then using a DI for each of your instruments still today,- the way they used to mix keyboards and add FX in the FOH in the 70s and early 80s.

The PA scene is lazy and learned nothing.

They normally work w/ guitar dominated bands still today and mainly deal w/ low level signals they need DI boxes for,- guitars & bass.

Most other s##t is mics for drums, the Leslie & vocals.

When they see a modern keyboard on stage they think "meh ...!".

When they hear the word MIDI they get confused and they are freaked out by any complex keyboard rig appearing.

 

From a gain stageing standpoint and when I have a hot balanced signal already which delivers much better S/N ratio than any low level unbalanced signal, I´d really prefer NOT to alter that signal into a mic-level signal again, than cranking up the gain in the FOH´s console channel to bring up the noisefloor from that preamp.

I learned to bring up level at the very beginning of the signal chain and not at the end.

 

Finally, I don´t know how it is in the US, but in europe, I was able eliminating DI boxes in my rig since late 80s already and didn´t run into any issues.

I´m happy about it because it´s less cables and less pieces of gear which might fail or get stolen.

 

All my DI boxes as well as my stereo isolation transformer are in my home studio since decades and wait for to be occasionally used.

 

A.C.

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So, sorry if this has been addressed before but cabling question. What is the issue with running the keyboard 1/4 jacks into the left/right of the SSV3, and then just running a single 1/4 TRS from the sub out on the SSV3 into just the A input side (XLR end of the same cable) of the Behringer 1200? Do you lose anything by just using the A input?

Mark

 

If you send to the BD1200-D first, you get the benefit of its built-in high-pass filter. That means that the sub handles the low frequencies, and they don't get sent to the SSv3. Since the SSv3 has a modest 8" driver, it has to work extra hard on those lower frequencies.

 

The net result is that you definitely get more volume and less potential for distortion. It's noticeable in most gig situations, especially if you're doing bass lines, etc. A nice upgrade for $299, plus cables.

 

(the never ending SSv3 thread)

 

And the Behringer sends L&R pre-crossover to FOH.

 

 

Thanks for the replies on this. Hit me later this of course is the best setup for seperation. One more question then....since the B1200 doesn't have a mono (L+R) thru signal-out jack, does that mean I have to send both the left and right thru outs to FOH? I much rather have a single, full range mono feed to FOH, not to mention saving a channel on the main board. How do I do this? Thanks again. Mark

 

 

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Is it really necessary to carry baffles for use with the ssv3?
[planning ahead for the day when I get one of these] It looks like a baffle could easily be created that either fits in the case people are using with the SSv3 or right on top of it. It would fold flat and be no larger than one side. It's one more thing to bring, but if you need it, it fits right in.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Yes, but was it really that kind of scenario we get when running keyboards w/ their balanced or unbalanced outputs into a (small) line-mixer offering balanced inputs, the mixer´s balanced outputs running into the Behringer 1200D Pro sub, the line-thrus of the sub running into the CPS SSv3?

Al,

 

I've needed the DI in two scenarios:

 

1) multiple boards into Ashly 308, into DI, into snake head, and

2) Kronos outs into DI, into snake head.

 

In both these situations I've been asked by FOH to engage the add'l pad on the DI.

 

I also doubt you´d pickup hum or any HF on the short cable run from a unbalanced-line-out keyboard into a (small) line-mixer and if, the balanced outputs of the line mixer will cancel it out.

For sure you won´t pick up any hum or HF when running balanced from a keyboard into your submixer already.

 

It's always been my understanding (basic electronics in high school and only two years of EE major) that in practice, ground loops are caused by connected devices pulling power from different circuits. So I always power my own rig off the same Furman...no hum within my own rig.

 

But upon connecting to FOH, it's quite possible (likely) that their on a different circuit than stage. That's where the hum comes from - 60 cycle, not cable induction. The old school fix was of course those $0.50 3-prong to 2-prong - not safe. Thus transformer isolation via DI ground lift...or one of those Ebtech "hum eliminator" devices (same thing).

 

Those have always been my two reasons I've needed the Radial, even when using what I think is decent quality kit upstream (pro level boards, the Ashly mixer...):

 

1) attenuate signal because FOH can't / won't / doesn't know how to swallow line level signals without gagging, and

 

2) kill ground lifts caused by my rig running on a different circuit than FOH

 

If there's a better real-world fix I haven't thought of, I'm always open to a better way.

 

 

 

..
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Thanks for the replies on this. Hit me later this of course is the best setup for seperation. One more question then....since the B1200 doesn't have a mono (L+R) thru signal-out jack, does that mean I have to send both the left and right thru outs to FOH? I much rather have a single, full range mono feed to FOH, not to mention saving a channel on the main board. How do I do this? Thanks again. Mark

 

Well, since you are not using the SS v.3 "Sub" output, I remind you; this is a line level full range mono (L+R) feed that can be used for the FOH send (albeit not a "balanced" send, which may not be required depending on the length of the cable).

 

I have been following this great discuss here about FOH sends and such, and I must agree w/ AC on "signal chain processing"; specifically, that padding down any signal at the source is a bad idea. Not just because it degrades your Signal/Noise ratio, and it certainly does, but the sad fact is no matter how much you spend, any (passive) DI box transformer (that "transforms" your signal) brings along it's audio baggage.

 

Designing circuits you learn quickly that "less is more", and good transformers (when required) are rated by mostly by what the "don't" change in signal quality as they do their transforming "math". You also learn; that every resistor has some inductance and/or capacitance, that every capacitor has some resistance or inductance, and that every inductor (xfmr/coil) has some resistance AND capacitance. In other words, they CHANGE the sound!

 

Every DI box usually will have a unity gain (not level changing) xfrm that does the "balancing" math, and a balanced signal has advantages for mics and instruments, but not necessarily for the hotter line level signals. These DI boxes may also have a pad (a resister), or a roll off filter (a capacitor)...so some of these boxes all have 3; a mix of resistance, inductance and capacitance...any/all of which can ONLY degrade your signal level and quality...because they are PASSIVE, they really can ONLY degrade (take away) signal.

 

NOTE: ACTIVE preamps w/ DI features like balanced sends are a very different conversation (the B1200 for example). My old GT Brick tube pre for stage had 3 tubes and an output transformer to send "tube enhanced" signals 1,000s of feet to arrive better than they left!

 

Back to your original question; try sending the FOH a direct line level signal from your SS v.3 (mono) "Sub" output using a simple cable adapter; 1/4" (TRS or TS) to XLR and see how that works. You can always add a balancing DI in the chain if the line level signal seems to pick up RF or whatever (doubtful). But IMHO...you will never need to "pad" it, or "filter" it.

 

When it comes to signal processing, as AC reminds us here, keep levels high from the start of the chain, and low at the other end. And also, "Less is More" (no DIs if not needed). Having LESS stuff in the chain is always MORE sound at the other end.

Just my 2 cents, worth exactly what you paid for it.

Hammond A100 w/ 2x Leslie 122, Leslie 145 w/ combo pedal, Casio P5S, SS3, Groove Tubes SFX G5 cab + CPS/QSC RM4500 KB amp, 1955 Steinway 48" studio upright.
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