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Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Paul K] #2637953 11/04/14 07:01 PM
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EddiePlaysBass Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nicklab
Weird kind of left-field angle here, David: have you considered taking lessons with someone via Skype?


Yeah I have, but my PC is quite outdated and I figure I'd at least need one of them webcam thingies, right? Now, in January my misses and I will move in together (finally) if and when the house is completed. We discussed computers: she wants a new laptop, I'd rather get a PC - so we'll get a laptop smile And those come with webcams, right?

Originally Posted By: Paul K
Just find a jazz cat and take jazz lessons. Doesn't matter if'n you hate jazz. It's about learning how music is constructed. When you stop progressing in a timely fashion,then take guitar lessons instead of bass from this jazz cat. In both phases, punch your weekly lessons into Band-in-a-box.


So Paul, you're saying that in order for me to become a better bass player, I should study jazz guitar?? That idea is totally ... interesting!

I know one guy who could help me: one of the guitarists of my old blues band. And quite frankly, while I started out on guitar (who didn't?) and was never good at it, I always thought I should revisit it and get better at it.

Right now I am dabbling in walking bass lines (the Jay Hungerford book right now) but I have 3 weeks left with the pop band and it is taking up a lot of my mental time. I don't practice the repertoire anymore (I have it down well enough) but it's always in the back of my head. Once done, I may go and find me a jazz cat!

Heck, a second option just came to mind - I know a grumpy instrument store owner (he's grumpy, not the instruments) and he's got a jazz guitar teacher. I may take the Squier there for a set-up and then inquire about his teacher. Hell, I may suggest buying a guitar there in the future - he has a nice selection of Cort guitars which look quite intriguing.

Originally Posted By: Paul K
It would not be weird to contact that cat who auditioned for the band.


Looks like he'll do a second audition round - they have two guys who were both interesting, apparently. I already told the ex-singer that we'll go to a gig together, once the band is up and running again. I think that'd be interesting smile

But anyway, I am contemplating sending him a mail with some questions. He may well end up being the jazz cat I am looking for smile


"I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes

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BP Island
Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: EddiePlaysBass] #2637983 11/04/14 09:33 PM
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jeremy c Offline
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You don't have to play guitar to learn jazz harmony. It's actually a lot easier on a keyboard.

First question: Can you play arpeggios of all the kinds of chords?
Ma7, 7, m7, m7b5, dim7, Ma7, +7, 9, Ma9, m9, 7b5, 7#9, 7b5b9, 13,
7#11, sus4, 7sus4, 9sus4, etc, etc.

Can you play all seven modal scales? three kinds of minor scales?
Whole tone scales?

There's your homework for the next few months.

Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: EddiePlaysBass] #2637987 11/04/14 10:48 PM
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Paul K Offline
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Originally Posted By: EddiePlaysBass

So Paul, you're saying that in order for me to become a better bass player, I should study jazz guitar?? That idea is totally ... interesting!



Yes. Bass gotta play more than just the root, don'cha'know. (Ha! Let the flames begin!!!)
J.C.'s piano thing would work also. I guess. I dunno. I can't play piano. But it makes sense 'cause in either way you'd hopefully be learning structure. But pianos are big and heavy. I had to trade in my Dahlquist speakers for those Bose things in the living room. So I expect my Linda would not stand for a piano.
I do suppose that you can learn the same things just by playing bass, but I found guitar lessons to be incredibly helpful to my bass playing.

And. Get a pair of drum sticks, a mouse pad, and a couple of books. When I used to get B.P. magazine I noticed that all the bass players who I really dig all started out on drums. Coincidence? Not.


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Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Paul K] #2637997 11/05/14 12:31 AM
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jeremy c Offline
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You don't need a piano, just a little keyboard.
It's hard to see all the notes you are playing when you play a chord on a guitar unless you are a really advanced jazz guitarist.

On a keyboard it's very easy to see the notes in a chord and see and hear what happens when you add or change a note.

I wouldn't ever want to play keyboard live with a band, but I can play any chord on the instrument.

Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: jeremy c] #2638018 11/05/14 04:53 AM
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EddiePlaysBass Offline
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Actually one of the things my girlfriend is bringing into our house, is an upright / saloon piano.

Jeremy, thanks for the assignment, I will start incorporating this stuff into my currently-not-so-daily practice routine!


"I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes

The Ross Brown Shirt World Tour
Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: jeremy c] #2638073 11/05/14 01:04 PM
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Paul K Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeremy c
You don't need a piano, just a little keyboard.


You know I knew that, right?


Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse.
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Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Paul K] #2638094 11/05/14 02:06 PM
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jeremy c Offline
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(pulling out a melodica and ducking and running)

Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: jeremy c] #2638111 11/05/14 02:39 PM
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Paul K Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeremy c
melodica


Well, my gig this weekend will involve a cat playing a harmonium.


Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse.
https://soundcloud.com/paul-kempkes
Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Paul K] #2638151 11/05/14 04:19 PM
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Eric VB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Paul K
I do suppose that you can learn the same things just by playing bass, but I found guitar lessons to be incredibly helpful to my bass playing.

Originally Posted By: jeremy c
On a keyboard it's very easy to see the notes in a chord and see and hear what happens when you add or change a note.

You just need a chordal instrument, i.e. one that can play chords. Bass guitar can be a chordal instrument although a standard 4-string will be limited compared to guitar or piano (or harp, etc.).

Beginning music theory talks about triads: root, 3rd and 5th. For most pop music only two kinds are used, major or minor.

For example you can play an A major triad (chord) on bass by playing root (A) on 12th fret A string, major 3rd (C#) on 11th fret D string and 5th (E) on 9th fret G string.

If you tried that example it probably felt awkward at best. It's easier if you play the open A string, but you can also change the voicing of the chord. Inversions lead to different voicings. A major in first inversion (C#-E-A) can be fretted 16th fret A (C#), 14th fret D (E) and 14th fret G (A). I bet that was easier!

Second inversion (E-A-C#) is easier still. We can even come down the neck on this one -- 7th fret A (E), 7th fret D (A) and 6th fret G (C#) -- or move everything up 12 frets.

Jazz harmony begins with seventh chords. As a simplification you can think of adding a 7th to a triad. For an A major triad the two most common seventh chords are: A major 7th (Amaj7, A-C#-E-G#) and A dominant 7th (A7, A-C#-E-G).

Now, if you want to hear those seventh chords "as written" you'll probably want to use a keyboard. On guitar you're likely to use inversions.

In any case it is common in jazz to drop the 5th and just play root + 3rd + 7th. Continuing the example in A, play 12th fret A string (A), 11th fret D string (C#) and either 13th fret G string (G#) for Amaj7 or 12th fret G string (G) for A7.

The neat thing about working with chords is you get to see relationships between chords that you may not have seen when working with scales. For example, let's simplify that A7 further by dropping the root and just play 11th fret D string (C#) and 12th fret G string (G). Now move down one fret: 10th fret D string (C) and 11th fret G string (F#). It may not look like anything familiar but it could be interpreted as a D7 (D-F#-A-C) in an inversion. Now move up two frets: 12th fret D string (D) and 13th fret G string (G#). Here's a bit of an E7 inversion (E-G#-B-D). This could be an easy (lazy?) way a keyboardist could voice these three chords -- perhaps adding the root with his left hand -- to play a twelve bar blues in A. And look how easy it was on bass!

But in an ensemble we don't play chords on bass, do we? What we can take away from this example is we could, for example, transition chromatically using chord tones from C# (A7) to C (D7) or G (A7) to F# (D7).

Last edited by Eric VB; 11/05/14 04:35 PM.
Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Eric VB] #2638154 11/05/14 04:29 PM
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Don't forget this nugget from the past -

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/567521/1

If you're thinking about getting started with theory this thread should take you from zero to undergrad studies.

Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: DJR_Bos] #2638204 11/05/14 09:22 PM
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jeremy c Offline
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Wow, I wrote that eleven years ago!
and I never got around to explaining whole tone scales and diminished scales. (and their uses).

On a weekly basis I play in an 18 piece band in which we sight-read music for fun. Sometimes the tempos are up around 200 and occasionally faster. On some charts I have to read the actual written notes as they fly by. It helps to be able to see notes in groups, rather than as individual units. Seeing the notes in groups often allows to me to see what chord they are part of and as I'm playing I can listen to the band and make sure that the chords made up by all the instruments match what I'm playing. This is all happening within microseconds and I'm not ever really aware of what I'm doing.

I also have to make up walking lines at high speeds and it's a good thing that I never have to wonder what notes are in a chord (or where those notes are on the bass).

And no, I'm not a musical genius or an undiscovered monster player. I know a huge number of people that no is every going to hear of that can do what I do. And knowing this stuff does not get in the way of playing a rock song or getting funky with my bad self.

Meanwhile:
Here's a new scale for you to practice:
It's called a diminished scale:
C Db Eb F Gb Ab A B Bb C
notice that the scale has nine notes, not eight.
It is made up of alternating half-steps and whole-steps.

Practice it in both directions.

It's great for soloing over C7 chords. John Coltrane liked this scale as did Michael Brecker.

The song Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most uses this scale. Listen to the last two measures of the song and hear the scale descend.


Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: jeremy c] #2638225 11/05/14 11:49 PM
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Paul K Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeremy c
It helps to be able to see notes in groups, rather than as individual units.


Right on: just like drum rudiments. (Well, the rhythm part anyway...)


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Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Paul K] #2638309 11/06/14 11:49 AM
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Learning sight reading is hard, because it is not Learning in a strict sense.
I mean, it's not a matter of studying and understanding something, like if someone explains you the innards of a nuclear reactor, until you get an idea and fully understand.
It is a matter of conquering an ability, like Learning to walk or read, or whistle.
This means that is not just a matter of studying until you understand, it is a matter of exercising until you do the trick without thinking.
I find it very difficult, maybe I am not exercising enough or I have musician's dislexia, or what. This is worsened by the fact that I studied flute, long ago, and every so often I read a D for an F.
Then, there is one more difficulty: translating what I read to string, position and finger. I have found that often my brain says A string, third fret long before I read C. I don't know if this is good or bad and often wonder if I should read first and play second when I study a new piece, or I should try to do both at the same time. On piano this is so much easier. On guitar it is much worse.

Last edited by Michele C.; 11/06/14 11:50 AM.

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Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: Michele C.] #2638393 11/06/14 03:46 PM
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Michele, I am learning to sight read by means of this book:

Single String Studies For Bass

Well, the 6-string version cos I got the book when I bought a 6-string bass (which I sold a while later). The exercises are not exciting in a musical sense, and I am not doing it exactly like the book suggests (i.e. NOT look at the neck at all) cos I have trouble enough with the sight reading part.

I try and get 10 minutes in every night before I go to bed but in reality I do this 3 evenings out of 7, give or take. So while my progress is slow, it IS getting somewhat better. Like you said, it's a matter of exercising until you no longer have to think about it. I'm not there yet!


"I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes

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Re: lessons have you ever taken any ??? [Re: EddiePlaysBass] #2638472 11/06/14 07:26 PM
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jeremy c Offline
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That's a crazy book.

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