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... and two sizes of side cabs (S12 2x12" and S15 2x15"). So you could make a system with any number of separate components.

In your side cabs, why are the speakers mounted face to face to a single baffle board, instead each one fireing the normal way, one mounted to the left and the other to the right side of the cab ?

Wonderful observation and a great question!

 

Basically our CPS speaker is unconventional (to say the least) and so we explored unconventional solutions (need I say we had to think "outside the box"...ugg, sorry)

So, the pictured S12 (2x12" facing speakers on a center baffle board and a cab open on all sides) was made that way for 2 reasons; 1) doubling the side speakers help balance the challenges of a "non-cabinet" and they handle twice the power, 2) centering the the L-R side speaker directly under the Front speaker just works better, much like MS microphones are arrayed that way...it give better stereo image. I have tried many variations, including a sealed Side cab with spread side speakers (which has obvious acoustical advantages), and these did work OK to some extent, but the stereo 3D image I am after was just not as pronounced.

 

To clarify what must seem an obvious mystery of why these speakers don't cancel against each other, and/or how can they make good sound: well, they are out of phase with each other...so they move in harmony left to right, and not against each other. Speakers, in general, put out nearly as much energy from both sides as they move both ways (and BTW, nearly the same SPL and FR). And, while it's true you get a bit more (very) HF from the front side of the cone, in this design that HF loss is mute (pun intended) and that loss is my trade off for increased power handling and also the "3D image" advantages keeping the side speaker centered and directly beneath the Front speaker.

 

NOTE: I have been playing with MS speaker designs for well over a decade, but I always go back to the simple "stacked snowman", it just works better (but it always turns heads...not necessarily a bad thing!). Much like the classic AKG C24 stereo (tube) mic with the swiveling head "snowman" capsule design (one of my favs for MS recording), the stereo image of a (2 capsule) MS mic system is maximized by getting the 2 capsules as close together (and as perfectly aligned) as possible. In this way, they are more perfectly "out of phase", and the cancellations are at optimum which produces that "being there" stereo image.

 

Also, regarding the acoustics of the (non) enclosure (or lack there of), the open Side cab approach allows the Side speaker maximum dispersion and better interaction (or manipulation) with the Front speaker...which I believe improves to overall CPS system dispersion to achieve about 300 degrees....so very Omni directional (which is admittedly counter intuitive for a conventional design).

 

The SS V.3 single side speaker is the culmination of my learning from these many years and oh-so-many "failed" experiments with other side speaker cab approaches.

 

Tomas Edison once said about his many failed experiments; "I have not failed. I've just found 10000 ways that won't work."

 

Of course, I had to try all these other ways, even against the advice of my dearly departed friend and CPS co inventor partner (the brains behind CPS) Drew Daniels, who always told me I was wasting my time; he was right!

 

However, first with the SS MK2, and more recently on the V.3 design, we used some computer modeling to off set the FR loss of a "non cabinet", and better shaped the FR of the Side...and got a few steps closer to perfection. I enlisted the speaker modeling talents of my old friends Dr. Marshall Buck (JBL, Cerwin Vega, AES President), and circuit design guru Harvey Rubens (Aphex, co inventor of their VCA chip as used in the Aural Exciter) to help me overcome these challenges of my unconventional "enclosure".

 

Visiting the S12 Side cab approach again today, and in hindsight, I would probably do some FR modeling like the V.3 to balance the Side system if I made a powered version (BTW, both ideas would be highly unlikely).

 

The point is guys, and as many have already pointed the obvious disadvantages of the larger, bulkier, and more expensive approach of my former SFX component systems...which BTW sounded GREAT (but didn't pay the rent)...the SS V.3 hits a lot more of the target for a working musician; very good sound, great image, small footprint, compact (albeit not lightweight for it's size...and no apologies here as this helps the sound), and perhaps most importantly...anyone can afford one!

 

I do not think I would have had so many "leaps of faith" if the V.3 sold for $999 (although may have said it could!)

 

While I welcome (relish) this on going conversation from folks like you, who are VERY clued in (THANK YOU ALL!!), were I to do a encore product, my sense is telling me to make a bigger brother (say twice the size and power) to the SS V.3 for the larger rooms and stages.

 

However, I continue to welcome any/all suggestions...they are MUCH appreciated. I have never felt more connected to my end user than I have being here with you on this site. You have the ear of the maker here guys, and he is listening!

 

Meanwhile my focus is trying to meet the current demand, which is very encouraging but also a bit overwhelming! I would love to do a double or triple run to get caught up, but as I have mentioned here before...I wanted to start slow and so if any problems popped up they would be small problems to fix and not bankrupt me. Now after (almost) 2 full runs, and run #3 in the works which will be 20% more units, I am thinking we have worked all the bugs out and found the right vendors so Run #4 may be the time to really step up the production and finally get Sweetwater some stock on the shelves. All of your input here on this forum has been wonderfully constructive and very encouraging...and so helps me make that decision to step up production in Q2 of 2015. Until then, I am afraid SW will continue to be in a constant 45-60 day back ordered position. That is regrettable, but I have tried to give you the background, and inside glimpse at what all manufactures face when they bring out a (really) new product with ZERO market share (one that has no "shelf space") While this ride is thrilling for me and you, it can also be a disaster if it is "rushed" into high volume production too quickly. (been there, done that, never again!)

Hammond A100 w/ 2x Leslie 122, Leslie 145 w/ combo pedal, Casio P5S, SS3, Groove Tubes SFX G5 cab + CPS/QSC RM4500 KB amp, 1955 Steinway 48" studio upright.
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Wonderful observation and a great question!

 

Basically our CPS speaker is unconventional (to say the least) and so we explored unconventional solutions (need I say we had to think "outside the box"...ugg, sorry) ...

 

Well, I´ve read it all,- thank you.

That was a very interesting, informative and overall excellent post!

 

A.C.

 

 

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@cphollis - The question was a tricky one, and it's not easy to express the answer. But you've put it into context, in a way that is easy for me to relate to. Yes, that's exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Thank you! :2thu:

 

- Guru

This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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Hi Aspen. I ordered the SS from SW on Oct 21. Will this order be in the 2nd run? Thanks, Ray

 

Ray, I am not aware of exactly how many orders are in front of you...but SW knows how many they can expect to receive (I believe it's 84 pieces). And they should know how many they have on order...and could do the math.

 

My guess would be "yes", but I can not say for sure. I certainly hope so!

Hammond A100 w/ 2x Leslie 122, Leslie 145 w/ combo pedal, Casio P5S, SS3, Groove Tubes SFX G5 cab + CPS/QSC RM4500 KB amp, 1955 Steinway 48" studio upright.
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Well, I´ve read it all

 

Yeah, sorry about my rather long answer to your short question...I just like to be thorough (perhaps to a fault).

Hammond A100 w/ 2x Leslie 122, Leslie 145 w/ combo pedal, Casio P5S, SS3, Groove Tubes SFX G5 cab + CPS/QSC RM4500 KB amp, 1955 Steinway 48" studio upright.
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Well, I´ve read it all

 

Yeah, sorry about my rather long answer to your short question...I just like to be thorough (perhaps to a fault).

 

I hope I didn´t sound negative w/ that line.

I really enjoyed reading all your posts and now understand the tech details better.

Some things cannot be explained in short and you talk about details other manufacturers eventually wouldn´t.

So, all good and many thx for all your input !

 

A.C.

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Finally got around to reading Chuck's terrific review. Thanks so much. My sub ships today. Now we wait til xmas.........

Hammond SK1, Casio Privia PX5-S, SpaceStation V.3, Behringer B1200D, 2-EV ZxA1s

MacBook Air, Novation ReMOTE 37SL, Logic, Pianoteq 5 Stage, Scarbee Vintage Keys

The MIDI Gizmo Museum!

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Any recommendations for a subwoofer which would work well with the Spacestation? What about this one:

 

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1200D-PRO.aspx

 

It seems to be cheap and light.

 

Tom

 

No one has heard one and it is still not available. If you have a SS or are getting one try it with a light keyboard/bass combo. I love the sound of mine with my Motion Sound KT-80. I'm itching to try it with a cheap, light bass amp.

Steinway L 1924 | Hammond SK2 | Hammond XPK-200L | Center Point Space Station V.3 | Motion Sound KT-80 | Yamaha U1
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I ordered one today too, to use with my Nords, an Electro 4D and Lead 2X. In play in

 

www.redfishsb.com

 

Kawai KG-2C, Nord Stage 3 73, Electro 4D, 5D and Lead 2x, Moog Voyager and Little Phatty Stage II, Slim Phatty, Roland Lucina AX-09, Hohner Piano Melodica, Spacestation V3, pair of QSC 8.2s.

 

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Any recommendations for a subwoofer which would work well with the Spacestation? What about this one:

 

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1200D-PRO.aspx

 

It seems to be cheap and light.

 

Tom

 

No one has heard one and it is still not available.

I got mine yesterday. (Of course, I'm still waiting on my SS till xmas) 42 lbs, nice big handles on the side make it an easy schlep - even for an old guy with a repaired shoulder. Hooked it up to a pair of EV ZX-A1s. Underpowered for the pair - as I expected - but once they were balanced, not bad at all. Very versatile connections and filter and crossover. It ain't exactly gonna rock the house at a dance club, but I think it'll make a nice pairing with the SS.

 

Coincidence bordering on irony: One of the reasons I sold the SS's big brother, the Fender Keyboard SFX 200, was the weight at 82 lbs. The Spacestation is listed at 40, the Behringer sub at 42.

Hammond SK1, Casio Privia PX5-S, SpaceStation V.3, Behringer B1200D, 2-EV ZxA1s

MacBook Air, Novation ReMOTE 37SL, Logic, Pianoteq 5 Stage, Scarbee Vintage Keys

The MIDI Gizmo Museum!

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Any recommendations for a subwoofer which would work well with the Spacestation? What about this one:

 

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1200D-PRO.aspx

 

It seems to be cheap and light.

 

Tom

 

No one has heard one and it is still not available.

I got mine yesterday. (Of course, I'm still waiting on my SS till xmas) 42 lbs, nice big handles on the side make it an easy schlep - even for an old guy with a repaired shoulder. Hooked it up to a pair of EV ZX-A1s. Underpowered for the pair - as I expected - but once they were balanced, not bad at all. Very versatile connections and filter and crossover. It ain't exactly gonna rock the house at a dance club, but I think it'll make a nice pairing with the SS.

 

Coincidence bordering on irony: One of the reasons I sold the SS's big brother, the Fender Keyboard SFX 200, was the weight at 82 lbs. The Spacestation is listed at 40, the Behringer sub at 42.

 

Sweet, is it a variable crossover?

Steinway L 1924 | Hammond SK2 | Hammond XPK-200L | Center Point Space Station V.3 | Motion Sound KT-80 | Yamaha U1
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The crossover is fixed at 100Hz - on output. But there's also a direct thru and a high cut filter, variable from 70-150Hz. Additionally, there's a switched 10 db boost, variable from 40-90Hz. So with the SS, you can patch out of the subwoofer (full-range) output, into the B1200, send the mono feed to FOH from the thru, and set the filter/boost/level at the sub. And you could still output the 100Hz signal to an active monitor for a monstrous on-stage rig!

Hammond SK1, Casio Privia PX5-S, SpaceStation V.3, Behringer B1200D, 2-EV ZxA1s

MacBook Air, Novation ReMOTE 37SL, Logic, Pianoteq 5 Stage, Scarbee Vintage Keys

The MIDI Gizmo Museum!

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Hooked it up to a pair of EV ZX-A1s. Underpowered for the pair - as I expected - but once they were balanced, not bad at all...It ain't exactly gonna rock the house at a dance club.

There's only so much you can expect for $299, even from Behringer! But I am curious about how much it enhances the ZXa1, which has a surprising amount of bass for its size. If you're putting bass guitar or bass drum into the mains, then I expect there would be a benefit... but if you're just putting vocals, guitar and keys through the mains, do you think you would still find a benefit to adding this sub?

 

Coincidence bordering on irony: One of the reasons I sold the SS's big brother, the Fender Keyboard SFX 200, was the weight at 82 lbs. The Spacestation is listed at 40, the Behringer sub at 42.

But at least now you don't have to carry it all at once! ;-)

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Has anyone been able to do a simple comparison of AP's through the new SS3 vs. the older GT SS's?

 

I have an older GT SFX100 and it does an excellent stereo rendering of Leslie sims and panned EP's but IMO it's compromised WRG to AP's. I was wondering if the new improved SS3, with its improved specs, does a better job with AP's.

 

I'm sorry if an answer to my question above is already buried somewhere deep in the bowels of this detailed informative but incredibly long thread.

Gigs: Nord 5D 73, Kurz PC4-7 & SP4-7, Hammond SK1, Yamaha MX88 & P121, Numa Compact 2x, Casio CGP700, QSC K12, Yamaha DBR10, JBL515xt(2). Alto TS310(2)

 

 

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The crossover is fixed at 100Hz - on output. But there's also a direct thru and a high cut filter, variable from 70-150Hz. Additionally, there's a switched 10 db boost, variable from 40-90Hz. So with the SS, you can patch out of the subwoofer (full-range) output, into the B1200, send the mono feed to FOH from the thru, and set the filter/boost/level at the sub. And you could still output the 100Hz signal to an active monitor for a monstrous on-stage rig!

 

Thanks for that info! Fast and affordable.

Steinway L 1924 | Hammond SK2 | Hammond XPK-200L | Center Point Space Station V.3 | Motion Sound KT-80 | Yamaha U1
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Has anyone been able to do a simple comparison of AP's through the new SS3 vs. the older GT SS's?

 

I have an older GT SFX100 and it does an excellent stereo rendering of Leslie sims and panned EP's but IMO it's compromised WRG to AP's. I was wondering if the new improved SS3, with its improved specs, does a better job with AP's.

 

I'm sorry if an answer to my question above is already buried somewhere deep in the bowels of this detailed informative but incredibly long thread.

 

While I never dealt with the older versions, IMHO the sub/keyboard amp is needed for a great piano sound. AP needs the extra low tones more than Hammond Organ even. I asked Aspen about this and he says that it is due to the low pitches formed by the room sound (hopefully I got that right). But on a more positive side--the control of the mid speaker and hf super tweeter allows for some serious tailoring of the treble.

Steinway L 1924 | Hammond SK2 | Hammond XPK-200L | Center Point Space Station V.3 | Motion Sound KT-80 | Yamaha U1
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Thanks for the info. A sub improves the AP's in my old SFX100 as well. It sounds like this coupled with the ability to adjust the highs / mids on the new SS3 will hopefully help even more with AP's. I'm looking forward to trying one out in person sometime to see if the improvement is worth an upgrade from the SFX100.

Gigs: Nord 5D 73, Kurz PC4-7 & SP4-7, Hammond SK1, Yamaha MX88 & P121, Numa Compact 2x, Casio CGP700, QSC K12, Yamaha DBR10, JBL515xt(2). Alto TS310(2)

 

 

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FYI, it's about double the price, but over the same range, the Yamaha 12" sub has a max SPL of 131dB compared to 122dB for the Behringer. That's a huge difference.

 

CLONK

 

I haven't heard it myself, but it seems to be getting good reviews.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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FYI, it's about double the price, but over the same range, the Yamaha 12" sub has a max SPL of 131dB compared to 122dB for the Behringer. That's a huge difference.

73 lbs, ouch.

 

In between, the EV ZXA1-Sub goes to 126 dB, weighing 42 lbs. The -3dB point is 53 Hz instead of the Behringer's 60, too, though it's not clear whether they are measuring the same way.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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FYI, it's about double the price, but over the same range, the Yamaha 12" sub has a max SPL of 131dB compared to 122dB for the Behringer. That's a huge difference.

73 lbs, ouch.

 

In between, the EV ZXA1-Sub goes to 126 dB, weighing 42 lbs. The -3dB point is 53 Hz instead of the Behringer's 60, too, though it's not clear whether they are measuring the same way.

 

I didn't look at the weight - you're right, that's significant! 4dB isn't a huge gain in volume, though 60Hz isn't a good low end if you're doing organ and synth stuff. Probably ok for piano.

 

Unfortunately, physics just won't let go of the limitations when it comes to subs. You have to move air one way or another. So you have to either pick size, volume, or low end. You can get 2 but not all 3.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Had a positive experience tonight with the SSv3. The more time I spend with it, the more I'm liking it. However, since it's a non-standard design, it takes some effort to bring the best out of it.

 

A rehearsal in a large, concrete room with some sound absorbing material scattered around. Still some hard reverb, but not brutal. Rock and roll -- full electric. Decent volume, but not overpowering. No earplugs needed this time.

 

As before: B3 with leslie sim brilliant, as were the clavs, synths, samples, etc. One example: we did Gimme Some Lovin' with the full dirty organ. Out front and nasty as it's supposed to be. Brilliant, swirling tone. I was seriously impressed.

 

Bring on the Deep Purple, baby!

 

My bugaboo has been getting the Nord APs to sound reasonable. I had some time ahead of rehearsal, and I was able to nail the problem between selecting bright voices and using a bit of parametric EQ using the Nord Piano's controls.

 

A light compression allowed me to seriously bang on the piano without getting into the SSv3's danger zone. All programmable on the Nord, so it's now my default. The width control is important -- it really affects the sound, and I was overdoing it.

 

The Yamaha Bright Grand voice seems to work particularly well. Actually, anything bright and with good presence plays well through this. Reasonable bass, too ... this might be my default amplification for smaller gigs.

 

It was actually pretty good. I was a bit surprised. Maybe I need to go back and edit my earlier blog post :)

 

The other trick I've learned is to put a stereo effect (actually, any effect) which seems to transform the sound. Chorus works, as does a slow pan. There's this filling presence (ambience?) which I can get so easily with this unit, which is so hard to get with other approaches. Solos aren't so rough, I simply crank up the volume for a few bars, and then I'm back to the comping fill.

 

The other band members like my sound, which is important -- except the drummer. He's got the full blast from the side-firing speaker, and doesn't get the full effect. Something to work on.

 

Folks, it's an amazing unit for $599. I'm going to continue to invest time into getting the best sound possible from it.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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The more time I spend with it, the more I'm liking it. However, since it's a non-standard design, it takes some effort to bring the best out of it.

 

 

The Yamaha Bright Grand voice seems to work particularly well. Actually, anything bright and with good presence plays well through this. Reasonable bass, too ... this might be my default amplification for smaller gigs.

 

 

 

I agree with your findings and certainly bright piano sounds sound better for the SS. We are all dealing with a learning curve for this special amp.

Steinway L 1924 | Hammond SK2 | Hammond XPK-200L | Center Point Space Station V.3 | Motion Sound KT-80 | Yamaha U1
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There's only so much you can expect for $299, even from Behringer! But I am curious about how much it enhances the ZXa1, which has a surprising amount of bass for its size. If you're putting bass guitar or bass drum into the mains, then I expect there would be a benefit... but if you're just putting vocals, guitar and keys through the mains, do you think you would still find a benefit to adding this sub?
Before the SS was re-introduced, I'd considered adding a sub to the pair of ZXa1s. The ZXa1 does punch above its weight, but an 8" woofer up on a pole is still an 8" woofer up on a pole. I play left hand acoustic bass in my solo act (+ piano & strings) and mostly organ (SK1) in a blues band. The low end has been certainly been adequate for those purposes, if underwhelming, but two things pushed me to try a sub: In the blues band, I've been really pushing the ZXa1s to the limit (or limiter...) on some nights, and I thought it would be nice to "feel" a little more bass in both circumstances.

 

I researched a bunch of them, starting with the matching EV. I just deleted my notes, but I remember looking at a couple of small Yorkvilles and a few used/discontinued options from EV and Peavey. Due to the bum shoulder, weight was a major consideration. Power ratings are pretty pointless: some list peak, some RMS, then there's Behringer's mystery "maximum power." SPL and frequency response specs nearly as suspect - who knows how they're measured? I settled on the Behringer because of weight, price, and the versatility of the patching/EQ. I figured at least it would be a cost effective way to gets some questions answered.

 

I hooked the system up in my living room and tested it with various tracks from my iPhone thru a small mixer. The results were both expected and encouraging. Like I said, as a main system, the single Behringer is underpowered - on most material, if I set the input level on the sub at 0, I backed off the EVs to -2 or -3. But the sound was more balanced, smoother, the bass fuller and felt, and the SPL comparable to EVs alone but with the input set higher. Pretty much what Id hoped for.

 

When the SS arrives, I hope to run the SS alone for rehearsals and jams and maybe in very small rooms for the solo act; the SS with the sub for the blues band, possibly adding one ZXa1 outdoors or for larger rooms if necessary; and the SS/sub for the keys/bass in the solo, with vox in the ZXa1s alone or with a little keys in the mix for coverage in larger rooms.

Hammond SK1, Casio Privia PX5-S, SpaceStation V.3, Behringer B1200D, 2-EV ZxA1s

MacBook Air, Novation ReMOTE 37SL, Logic, Pianoteq 5 Stage, Scarbee Vintage Keys

The MIDI Gizmo Museum!

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Coincidence bordering on irony: One of the reasons I sold the SS's big brother, the Fender Keyboard SFX 200, was the weight at 82 lbs. The Spacestation is listed at 40, the Behringer sub at 42.

 

at least you can walk in balanced now, one in each hand...

gig: hammond sk-1 73, neo vent, nord stage 2 76, ancona 34 accordion, cps space station v3

home: steinway m, 1950 hammond c2

 

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Talked to sweetwater yesterday, confirmed the next shipment won't be there til 12/23. I redirected my funds for the SS to an Ultranova. I have enough gigs between now and Dec to refund the SS kitty.

Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1

Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6

www.bksband.com

www.echoesrocks.com

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