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#2611653 - 07/15/14 08:14 PM General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Hi all,

This is my first post after lurking around these forums for a while. Iíll probably end up reading a lot more than I post though, as Iím here mainly to learn and unfortunately donít have much knowledge to offer in return!

Just a bit of background information first Ė Iíve been doing some poor quality recording at home since about 2008, mainly for recording ideas and demos of songs. Now that my band has broken up my aim is to be able to record my own music and release it, rather than continually paying thousands to go to a studio. Iím aware that getting good at this takes years and years of practice. Iíve spent the past six months reading extensively about audio engineering and sound in general, including reading most of Ethanís writings. Iím confident enough to say I at least know the basics at this point. I currently use an Edirol UA-25 soundcard to record, which connects to my computer via USB. My DAW is Reaper, and my monitors are Edirol MA-15Dís. Despite searching pretty extensively Iíve been unable to find proper data regarding the frequency response of these speakers. Iím guessing this is because the response is so uneven that the manufacturer is better off not publishing the data at all. The only spec I can find is that the speakers have a frequency range of 70Hz to 20kHz. The listening room currently has no acoustic treatment (I can almost hear everyone freaking out at this point) and is small, and unfortunately almost cube shaped, being 3400cm in length, 3040cm in width, and having a height of 2550cm . My listening position is 38% of the way back from the front wall, and the speakers are facing down the longer length of the room.

To practice recording Iíve been using my Shure SM57 to mic up my guitar amp, which is a Peavey 6505 head running into an Mesa Oversized Rectifier cabinet. The downside of this setup is that itís difficult recording such a powerful amp in my house. Usually these amps are recorded very loud so that the tubes are nice and warm and also to get some loudspeaker breakup. Iíve been putting the amplifier in an adjoining room to make the sound levels a bit more bearable. This room is also not treated. As Iím focusing almost entirely on recording (as opposed to live shows) Iíve been considering buying an Axe FX II XL unit so that I can record cranked guitar tones at low volumes, as well as having a variety of amp sims and effects available. This also would also allow me to only acoustically treat the listening room, as opposed to both the listening room and the adjoining room for recording the amp. Iíve been using high quality drum samples (Steven Slate SSD4 Platinum) for programming drums, and am also looking at buying a Fender Precision Bass so that I can record bass. Iíll also need a good quality vocal mic and am looking at the Shure SM7B, which by all accounts works well for aggressive vocals (I play metal).

As you would expect with my current setup, the results Iím getting arenít great. Itís the same old story of mixes translating badly from my recording room to other systems. One recording will sound great on my system but then listening in my car I realize there is a whole heap of flubby bass going on which I wasnít able to hear on my computer monitors. (Probably due to the range of the monitors extending to only 70Hz). The MA-15Dís have a Ďbass enhancerí switch, which apparently operates on psycho-acoustic principles that ďconvert low frequencies into a series of overtones the human ear cannot distinguish from the original low frequencies.Ē Flicking this switch definitely increases the bass, but I then find that there is far too much bass, and that mixes made using this setting totally lack bass and sound very harsh and brittle. I suspect that the harshness also comes from a dip in the speakerís frequency response between 2 and 4kHz, although finding data to support this seems impossible. Either way, I feel like Iím flying totally blind with my current set up.

So, the first question Iím asking is what to prioritize when buying new gear for this studio (including acoustic treatment) and whether my current gear is good enough. Acoustic treatment at the main reflection points logically seems to be the first point of call, followed by bass traps. From what Iíve read most modern soundcards do a pretty good job, so my main concern (apart from acoustic treatment) is regarding my monitors. Iím fully aware of the importance of acoustic treatment and that this should probably be my first priority before doing anything else, but also feel that no amount of acoustic treatment will ever make these speakers sound flat, and that even with the room fully treated Iíll still be flying blind. So, I basically need to know what items to prioritize out of: better monitors, acoustic treatment, the Fender P bass, Shure SM7B, and Axe FX II unit. I suspect that in the end Iíll probably require them all, but saving up and prioritizing is important.

This also gets me onto a whole other issue of how to choose studio monitors and trying to obtain accurate data regarding theseÖ But perhaps I should leave that for another thread.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

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#2611735 - 07/16/14 09:10 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Rky Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 162
Loc: Chicagoland,Illinois,USA
I think you're on the right track with first treating your acoustic space. But, as you already know, monitors are an integral component in the listening chain so you need to make a good choice there too.

You might try to see how your current monitors perform before and after room treatment using measuring software like REW.

If you want different/new monitors, one way to go about it is first determine your price range then search what's out there and finally see if you can compare what others say via reviews and hopefully you can get advice from this and other forums.

Check this one out:

http://therecordingrevolution.com/

Cheers,
Rock


Edited by Rky (07/16/14 09:11 AM)

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#2611816 - 07/16/14 12:48 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Rky]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Rock gave you great advice, and I'll add a bit more. Usually, hearing too much bass in the car is due to severe nulls in your mixing room. Boomy bass is more about the 100-250 Hz range rather than below 70 Hz where your speakers fall short. A 4-inch woofer is not great, so getting better / larger speakers after you do some basic acoustic treatment is a good idea. Also, speakers don't have a ragged response like you see for room measurements. Usually they're more flat than not over their stated range, falling off at the high and low extremes. This is a simplification for sure, but I don't want you to think a speaker would have 10 dB peaks or 30 dB nulls.

--Ethan

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#2612514 - 07/19/14 04:53 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Thanks for the advice guys! Much appreciated.

As far as bass trapping goes, I'm under the impression that Owens Corning 705-FRK is the best bet, 4 inches thick and spaced 4 inches away from the wall, with the paper facing inwards towards the room. I'm also under the impression that the corners of the room are the first place I should target.

I'm less clear on what to use on the main reflection points and how thick this material should be. Is Owens Corning 703 the best bet here?

Thanks again.

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#2613035 - 07/21/14 10:39 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Yes and Yes.

For reflection points, two inches thick is good, with or without a 2-inch gap. Even one inch thick flat against the wall works well enough, though thicker is better and adding a gap is better still. You can use either 703 or 705, but it must be plain, not FRK.

--Ethan

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#2613799 - 07/23/14 09:27 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Thanks again for your reply! It's much appreciated.

I've discovered that Owens Corning isn't readily available where I live (Australia), so I've been looking for a locally available alternative. It appears that this company http://www.insulation.com.au/ has a licence to use Owens Corning's designs here, and therefore should make similar products. I've been trying to ascertain which products are most like 703 and 705-FRK by looking at the absorption coefficients, but have been having a little difficulty.

In this thread another forum member from Australia set up a studio using the company's products, using this one Semi-Rigid at the main reflection points and this one Rigid for bass trapping.

By matching the absorption coefficients with data I found here I can see that there is noticeable variance between the Owens Corning products and the products used in the thread above. The particularly concerning figure is for the rigid fibreglass product, which has a much lower absorption coefficient at 125Hz. I've also noticed that 705 has a density of 96kg per cubic metre, whereas the rigid fibreglass listed above is only 48kg per cubic metre. I've only been able to find one product on the site that has an equal density to 705, but it's performance at 125Hz still seems poor in comparison. http://www.insulation.com.au/products-1/high-density-equipment-insulation-hdei It's also difficult to tell whether the 'Black tissue faced' and 'Perf. foil faced' varieties are intended to be similar to FRK.

I'm a bit stuck at the moment. Surely for bass traps you'd want better absorption at 125Hz? I've searched the company's site but have been unable to find anything more suitable. frown


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#2613987 - 07/24/14 12:07 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
The difference between 45 kgm3 and 90 kgm3 becomes less and less with thicker material. So at two inches thick 90 kgm3 is much better than 45, but at six inches thick the difference is much smaller. As you go even thicker the difference becomes insignificant. So if you make your bass traps at lest six inches thick I think you should be fine.

--Ethan

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#2618318 - 08/09/14 07:14 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Thanks again for the reply, it's much appreciated.

I've contacted the company just to confirm that they don't make any products that are closer to 703 or 705-FRK. (If I can use material only 4 inches thick, then this is preferable.) Otherwise I'll go with the 6+ inches of material listed earlier.

In the meantime I've also ordered a Shure SM7B microphone for recording vocals. This microphone has a great reputation for capturing aggressive vocals, which is the style I'm going for. This being said, there was one spec that concerned me a little. The frequency range on the microphone is listed as 50Hz to 20,000Hz. Obviously 20,000Hz is the highest the human ear can hear, but I'm wondering whether the 50Hz limit could reduce the microphone's versatility a little. Although I doubt I could ever sing that low (I do have quite a bassy voice) some of my favourite singers can get slightly below this frequency. Here's a clip of a 15 year old getting to G1 (around 49Hz). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3iqPaUlekw

If I needed to capture a singer like this, I'm guessing the microphone would be incapable of doing this? I'm also a tad confused as some people have claimed that the SM7B sounds great when used to mic a bass cab, however the low E of a bass guitar (in standard tuning) has a fundamental frequency of around 41Hz. Would they be hearing entirely harmonics at this point?

Just a tad confused about this and whether the range stopping at 50Hz would reduce the microphone's usefulness.

Thanks again.

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#2618630 - 08/11/14 09:07 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Microphones do not cut off suddenly at some frequency. Neither do loudspeakers, or preamps, or acoustic treatment panels. Everything has a roll-off curve. According to the official SM7B spec sheet the response is 5 dB down at 50 Hz, and you can see the slope and estimate what happens at lower frequencies:

http://cdn.shure.com/specification_sheet/upload/83/us_pro_sm7b_specsheet.pdf

So I'm sure this microphone will be fine for anyone's vocals.

--Ethan

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#2623187 - 08/27/14 07:02 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Thanks once again for the advice. smile

For any Australian forum members - don't bother trying to contact Fletcher Insulation via their website. I emailed them twice over a period of three weeks and never received a reply. I ended up calling the company directly and spoke to a representative this way. Specifically, I enquired as to whether they made products equivalent to Owens Corning 703 and 705-FRK. The representative was only able to tell me that the '32kg and 48kg' density fibreglass would probably be the equivalent. I couldn't get any more detailed information than this. It seems that the best way to find out which product is best is by going through all of the datasheets on the company's website and comparing the absorption coefficients directly.

After searching through all of the company's products, the best product that I could find is the 'Mineral Wool Slab'. The absorption coefficients can be found here. It appears that this material is available in a density of 96kg/m3, which is the same density as 703 and 705-FRK. It is also available in exactly 2 and 4 inches (50.8mm and 101.6mm respectively). The datasheet states that it can be supplied with 'different facing options' although doesn't state what these are, nor does the datasheet contain absorption coefficients for the different facings. The datasheet for the 48kg/m3 Rigid Glasswool sheet linked earlier in the thread (available here) states that 'Black Tissue Facing' and 'Perf. Foil Facing' are available, so I'm guessing that the Mineral Wool Slab has the same options available. The absorption coefficients in this datasheet however only show a slight difference between these facings and the plain fibreglass.

My plan is to use the 96kg/m3 Mineral Wool Slab for both the reflection points and for bass trapping around the room. The only difference being that I will use 2 inches thick for the reflection points, and 4 inches for bass trapping.

So, after that long spiel, a couple of questions:

1. Does the plan above sound like a good idea? Is using this material for both reflection points and bass trapping the best option based on what is available?

2. Is is worth getting the foil or tissue facing on the front of the bass traps? Further, does most foil on rigid fibreglass function similarly to the foil in 705-FRK? The lack of data on this on the company's website makes the issue a little confusing. If the foil doesn't serve the same purpose at the 705-FRK foil, I might be better off without it. Not sure what to do in this regard.

Thanks once again for your help.

P.S. Thread needs more cats.




Edited by asdfasd (08/27/14 07:05 PM)

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#2623285 - 08/28/14 10:49 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
1. Sure.

2. A thin paper facing is good for corner bass traps, and other places too that are not at reflection points.

Yes to more cats. thu

--Ethan


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#2623418 - 08/29/14 12:13 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Have just been making a few phone calls trying to obtain the 96kg/m3 mineral wool I listed above.. oh man.. so much incompetence.

The supplier I contacted was shocked at the thickness I wanted and also didn't have any of the product I was asking about. He suggested a different product but only had it in 25ml thick. ( This is the product by the way). It doesn't perform nearly as well at 125Hz as the other product. He also claimed "all of companies I know that make acoustic treatment use this product at 25ml thick." If that's the case, they're probably incompetent.

I then called Fletcher Insulation directly. The woman there denied that they make 96kg/m3 material at all, and claimed that the highest they make is 80kg/m3. I didn't even bother asking about paper facing because it was clear she had no idea what she was talking about.

So far, it seems impossible to get the material I want, and no one I talk to has the faintest idea about acoustic treatment at all. Urgh. If I lived in the US I would have had this sorted weeks ago. No wonder industry is packing up and leaving Australia.

Me:



P.S. Emma is awesome smile


Edited by asdfasd (08/29/14 12:14 AM)

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#2625185 - 09/05/14 12:25 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Anyone know of any places in the US that might be willing to ship 703 and 705-FRK to Australia? Really want to get my hands on some of this stuff.

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#2625843 - 09/08/14 05:52 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
If anyone is interested - gik acoustics in the US are prepared to ship to 703 and 705-FRK to Australia. The only problem is that shipping works out to around $350 per box. So for 4 boxes worth of material (around $400 for the products themselves) the shipping is around $1400. Looks like I'll have to settle for some of the sub-standard products available in Australia.

Also wanted to say how great gik acoustics were to deal with. I emailed Glenn, the President of the company, and he replied to my email very quickly with an estimate of the cost of shipping etc. Was very helpful. I love good customer service. Was in stark contrast to the experience I had dealing with companies here.

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#2626023 - 09/09/14 12:47 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
RealTraps also ships to Australia, and we have a dealer there, but the shipping does add a lot to the cost. I'm sure mineral wool or similar that's available in Australia will work well for you.

--Ethan

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#2626097 - 09/09/14 06:16 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
I've previously looked into buying RealTraps here, but unfortunately as you say shipping does add a lot to the cost and I'm on a bit of a budget frown

This seems to be the most popular stuff in Australia as far as I can tell: Polymax

Not mineral wool, but polyester insulation. Is it still suitable for bass trapping? The absorption coefficients look pretty good. The other downside is that it's not available with a foil or tissue facing. Not sure whether it's possible to add regular foil to this kind of product to make it pseudo-FRK.

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#2626265 - 09/10/14 11:32 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
I don't know about that Polymax. It seems to absorb less bass than an equivalent thickness of rigid fiberglass or mineral wool.

--Ethan

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#2628837 - 09/21/14 10:39 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Hi again all,

Any thoughts on this product? It's the first product I've found available in Australia that looks really good. Looks like it performs well at low frequencies - any advice as to whether the product is appropriate for treating main reflection points and for bass trapping would be appreciated.

The only downside is that it doesn't come with a foil facing. Is it possible to add this later? Is it just normal foil or is there a special kind that I'd need to buy?

Kind Regards,
asdfasd

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#2629204 - 09/23/14 12:17 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
I'm sure that stuff is fine. As long as its surface is reasonably straight and solid, you can use spray glue to bond thin paper to the side facing the room.

--Ethan

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#2629273 - 09/23/14 09:59 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Thanks for the reply, I'll see if the company has some in stock. twothumbs

In terms of the paper facing, I've read that a lot of bass traps have a 'kraft paper' facing. This is what I've found locally. Is it suitable? Or would I be better getting something even thinner?

Cheers.

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#2629368 - 09/24/14 11:27 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Yes, that paper is fine.

--Ethan

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#2631968 - 10/06/14 09:06 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Hi again,

Hopefully this will be my last post regarding rigid fibreglass purchasing advice - thank you for your patience so far!

It turns out that the material I linked to above (MPS 400) actually has a density of 80kg/m3, rather than the >100kg/m3 originally specified. Although this isn't strictly a problem, I found that the company also stocks a product called MPS 500, which appears to be the same product but with a density of 100kg/m3. Data sheet for the MPS range can be found here

The data sheet above only gives absorption data for a lower density version of MPS (50kg/m3) at 50mm thick, and the MPS 400 data sheet I linked above (or here) only provides data for 50mm thick 80kg/m3 fibreglass. Based on the rather limited data available, does MPS 500 at 100mm thick still seem like a good option for bass trapping?

My plan is to have 4 100mm thick panels for the main reflection points (also providing some bass trapping) as well as an additional 8 panels with kraft paper facing to serve as bass traps in the room corners (as in this picture.)

Should I pay up and give the salesperson the go ahead to ship the product?

Thanks once more.

asdfasd

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#2632173 - 10/07/14 01:52 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
I'm sure any of those will work fine. What matters most is thickness and total surface coverage. So Yes, go pay for it and get started! grin

--Ethan

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#2635390 - 10/23/14 07:15 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Well, after being in contact with that company for a month regarding getting the right product and sorting out price and shipping details, I was informed today that the products I'm looking at aren't available in Australia. Hooray. That process took a month. frown

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#2635555 - 10/24/14 11:29 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Sheesh! hitt

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#2636000 - 10/26/14 11:18 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
So, while continuing to look for products available in my city I stumbled across this thread at gearslutz discussing two of the products I am researching.

The thread confused me a bit - I've been under the impression that higher density rigid fibreglass (around 96kg/m3) is preferable for main reflections points and for creating bass traps (this seems to be the case when looking at absorption coefficients for various products). However the thread indicates that lower densities may be preferable for bass traps. Am I better off looking for a 48kg/m3 density? Some of the advice in the thread seems to conflict with most of what I know about acoustic treatment. Something about the gas flow resistivity of the materials? Confusing. idk

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#2636082 - 10/27/14 09:40 AM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Density is less important than thickness and total surface coverage. I've seen "simulations" of absorption versus density, but the only real test I know of is my own:

Density Report

--Ethan

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#2636417 - 10/28/14 07:10 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Thanks for the link, the report was interesting reading twothumbs

In light of the consensus that thickness and total surface coverage is more important than density, I've decided that it doesn't make much sense for me to continue searching for higher density fibreglass, when I could simply buy more of a lower density fibreglass and make thicker panels (at a cheaper price too).

My idea was to buy 60kg/m3 Bradford Fibertex 350 (datasheet here ) and make panels 200mm thick for each corner (from floor to ceiling), as well as having 50mm thick panels to treat main reflection points. I would cover the front of the 200mm panels with the kraft paper linked earlier in the thread. I'd then also have another 200mm thick bass trap and another 100mm bass trap left over to place elsewhere in the room.

Does this sound like a good plan? Or is 200mm overkill? Would sticking to 100mm be better?

Thanks once again for your advice/ patience. Kitten for your trouble:



Edited by asdfasd (10/28/14 07:14 PM)

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#2636618 - 10/29/14 12:25 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: asdfasd]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Yes, 200 mm is great, and extra thickness is never overkill.

Back atcha with my baby Emma who also has green eyes.

--Ethan


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#2637746 - 11/03/14 05:41 PM Re: General Recording Setup Advice & Studio Monitor Selection [Re: Ethan Winer]
asdfasd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 57
Emma is awesome!

This is my girl, Lily. My wife and I adopted her from a shelter around 3 years ago. We believe she's half Abyssinian. She's very smart but also incredibly naughty. She's practically ruined the chair she's sitting on there. She's a very spoilt cat smile


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