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#2932449 - 06/12/18 01:09 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Morrisseysixman]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morrisseysixman
For gigs like that, I've actually reduced it to a ONE trip load in. I put the SS3 in a regular sized rolling suitcase, along with my stool, cables, pedals, etc. I use a backpack case for my keyboard, and carry the stand in my free hand. Voila!


Similar. SS3 in a rolling powered-speaker case, cable bag and stand on top, keyboard in backpack, stool in hand. One trip for almost every gig.
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#2934282 - 06/23/18 05:47 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Originally Posted By: cphollis
"Why doesn't someone make a processor?"

Two thing to consider?

First, Aspen owns the patents on all of this. Props to him.

The SSV3 creates a stereo image from a stereo signal through multiple speakers mounted in the same enclosure.

Feeding a stereo signal to two speakers has been around longer than the SSV3 as have DSP's and software that simulate a stereo image from a mono signal through two speakers. And Omnipolar speakers which could easily be rewired to create a similar effect from a single enclosure.

Already discussed earlier in season 2 of this thread.

I don't think Aspen is in a position to close down Dolby Labs or any other mono to stereo vendor for patent infingement as that is not what the SSV3 does.

Aspen discussed what the patent covers early on in this thread (in a post from 09/30/14). It would not seem to preclude someone making a processor, though perhaps that would depend on how they described its application. But if you just want the processing and you have an iPad, this might do it, at least for the purposes of experimentation:

https://9labs.io/MSProcessor
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#2934291 - 06/23/18 06:30 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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As I undertand it the SSV3 implements the mid-side microphone technique in reverse. Encoding a stereo audio signal to mid-side is not rocket science. Somewhere in the bowels of this thread I posted a short video on how I used Plogue Bidule to do it. Now don't everybody at once go hunting for it – it's here. Yes, a little geeky – but Bidule is often available as a fully-functioning demo and today is your lucky day if you want to try this with zero expense (except for your time); it'll work without restrictions until the end of July. Klonk. If someone actually wants to try this, lmk and I will gladly upload the Bidule layout I describe in my little video (which BTW is not my original idea, I got it from another user's video years ago). Of course, you will need to use your computer to do this, so if you're a hardware-only person then I guess you've just wasted 30 seconds... sorry!

What might make this an exersize in futility is that in order to make this work right, you need to send the side signal to an amp that uses an open-back speaker, facing sideways – the speaker cone has to push and pull air into the room at the same time. And, also as I understand it, the two speakers should be as close to each other as possible.

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#2934308 - 06/23/18 09:01 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
What might make this an exersize in futility is that in order to make this work right, you need to send the side signal to an amp that uses an open-back speaker, facing sideways – the speaker cone has to push and pull air into the room at the same time. And, also as I understand it, the two speakers should be as close to each other as possible.

That is the key. You need a sources for L-R and R-L signals, and the open speaker produces them if fed either of these. I posted a musing in the thread long ago for a speaker manufacturer to market such a transducer.

Such a transducer might be positioned in concert with a high fidelity mono speaker to reproduce a better overall stereo speaker for APs. This is in fact what many people are doing by facing the SS mono output to the floor and routing the mono send to an RCF, or equivalent.

There may be a market for a transducer producing the (L-R) and (R-L) from stereo inputs at a price point below the $870 SS for the above users (who are using the SS only for this purpose), but it's not obvious.
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#2934310 - 06/23/18 10:42 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
elseif Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
... What might make this an exersize in futility is that in order to make this work right, you need to send the side signal to an amp that uses an open-back speaker, facing sideways – the speaker cone has to push and pull air into the room at the same time. And, also as I understand it, the two speakers should be as close to each other as possible...

Well the naive engineering solution is to delay the signal to the cardioid driver so that it corresponds to the time delay inherent in the physical separation between the two out-of-phase side drivers. The point is to make all three drivers appear as a point source, right? I wouldn't be surprised if the time alignment patent for the new implementation has something to do with this.

If this thing is said to produce an output that corresponds to the pattern response of a mid-side microphone array then it should look like a couple of super-cardioid-ish patterns whose separation angle depends on the mid-side mix ratio (because that is what the mid-side array looks like). I ought to be able to do the same thing with two cardiod-ish loudspeakers, close together and whose angle-of-separation is somewhere in the range of 90-130 degrees. I have not tried this however.
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#2934354 - 06/24/18 08:38 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: JazzPiano88]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
What might make this an exersize in futility is that in order to make this work right, you need to send the side signal to an amp that uses an open-back speaker, facing sideways – the speaker cone has to push and pull air into the room at the same time. And, also as I understand it, the two speakers should be as close to each other as possible.

That is the key. You need a sources for L-R and R-L signals, and the open speaker produces them if fed either of these. I posted a musing in the thread long ago for a speaker manufacturer to market such a transducer.

I presume you mean "such a transducer" as a single speaker exposed on both sides, like a guitar amp. That's all we're talking about here, right? You say "sources for L-R and R-L signals." Are you not dealing with one signal – the "difference" – into one transducer, whose cone is exposed on both sides? You seem to imply there are two separate signal paths going to two transducers needed for this – or am I reading it wrong?

Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
Such a transducer might be positioned in concert with a high fidelity mono speaker to reproduce a better overall stereo speaker for APs. This is in fact what many people are doing by facing the SS mono output to the floor and routing the mono send to an RCF, or equivalent.

Again - is it simply the fact that the SSV3's front speaker is of lesser quality that APs sound bad? Maybe, but didn't someone try replacing it with a better one (no, I'm not gonna spend an hour searching this thread!). Or is it – as I've been saying maybe too many times – some pianos with stereo samples do not sound good with both channels combined, which is what the SSV3's front speaker is projecting.

Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
There may be a market for a transducer producing the (L-R) and (R-L) from stereo inputs at a price point below the $870 SS for the above users (who are using the SS only for this purpose), but it's not obvious.

That would be a interesting project. I wonder if a M-S encoder is as easy to implement in the analog domain as it is digitally. Maybe you could build it into a stomp box. Before anyone goes designing & marketing such a "difference speaker", set up a twin reverb or other guitar amp sideways with the back fully removed for this L-R signal, then put a nice powered PA on top for the L+R feed and see what happens. Has anyone tried this yet?

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#2934360 - 06/24/18 09:26 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Morrisseysixman]
Jazzooo Offline
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Registered: 01/17/01
Posts: 610
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Still using my SS3 for everything--running my px5s and my SK1 through a small mixer into the amp. I look for the optimal place to put the amp but have gotten lazier about it, as it usually works wherever. Jazz trio, funk band, etc. big halls 200+ I run a line into the house for fill.

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#2934361 - 06/24/18 09:28 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
PianoMan51 Offline
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I did my exploration a couple of years ago, starting with Bidule, like Mr. Reeze.

I found a VST piano that sounded good summed (Alicia's Keys). Sent that R+L to a Turbosound powered speaker. I took the R-L into a power amp and fed that to an open transducer mounted 90 deg. on the back of the powered speaker.

For VB3 organ and a VST rhodes this was a mighty sound. Filled the room, swirled, did all the things you would want. For the piano, not at all. Yes, it added some ambient touch to the piano sound but it defocused the sound. I have gigged with this setup at east a dozen times. Just don't have many 'B3' oriented gigs any more.

One way to test the quality of the SS front speakers is to feed a known good quality mono piano into both inputs. This means that R-L is zero, nothing coming out the side speaker. If the piano still sounds ugly, it's the speakers. (And I don't mean just the drivers, but the whole thing: amp, box, drivers, x-overs, etc.)

NOW, to the analog question, you can create R+L and R-L in any mixer that has a 180 phase switch for one of the channels. Use two y-cables to split each R and L into two. Apply the phase switch to one of the Ls. Send R+L to one mains output and R-L to the other.

If the mixer can't invert the phase, then make a special XLR cable that reverses the polarity of one of the Ls. Probably needs a balanced keyboard output.

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#2934364 - 06/24/18 09:45 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Registered: 11/16/15
Posts: 416
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
What might make this an exersize in futility is that in order to make this work right, you need to send the side signal to an amp that uses an open-back speaker, facing sideways – the speaker cone has to push and pull air into the room at the same time. And, also as I understand it, the two speakers should be as close to each other as possible.

That is the key. You need a sources for L-R and R-L signals, and the open speaker produces them if fed either of these. I posted a musing in the thread long ago for a speaker manufacturer to market such a transducer.

I presume you mean "such a transducer" as a single speaker exposed on both sides, like a guitar amp. That's all we're talking about here, right? You say "sources for L-R and R-L signals." Are you not dealing with one signal – the "difference" – into one transducer, whose cone is exposed on both sides? You seem to imply there are two separate signal paths going to two transducers needed for this – or am I reading it wrong?

Yes, I meant that an open speaker when fed either L-R or R-L will produce both (forward and backward emissions), so you would only need to electrically produce one of them.

Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
Such a transducer might be positioned in concert with a high fidelity mono speaker to reproduce a better overall stereo speaker for APs. This is in fact what many people are doing by facing the SS mono output to the floor and routing the mono send to an RCF, or equivalent.

Again - is it simply the fact that the SSV3's front speaker is of lesser quality that APs sound bad? Maybe, but didn't someone try replacing it with a better one (no, I'm not gonna spend an hour searching this thread!). Or is it – as I've been saying maybe too many times – some pianos with stereo samples do not sound good with both channels combined, which is what the SSV3's front speaker is projecting.

From what I've read it is the lesser quality of the SS front speaker that people are trying to overcome by effectively turning it off and using a standalone higher end powered speaker. I've got a pair of TT08A's coming so I'm looking forward to trying it with one of them to see for myself.

Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
There may be a market for a transducer producing the (L-R) and (R-L) from stereo inputs at a price point below the $870 SS for the above users (who are using the SS only for this purpose), but it's not obvious.

That would be a interesting project. I wonder if a M-S encoder is as easy to implement in the analog domain as it is digitally. Maybe you could build it into a stomp box. Before anyone goes designing & marketing such a "difference speaker", set up a twin reverb or other guitar amp sideways with the back fully removed for this L-R signal, then put a nice powered PA on top for the L+R feed and see what happens. Has anyone tried this yet?

I'm sure it's straightforward to create such a stomp box. I've seen M,S to L,R decoders that mathematically should just be summing and differential amplifiers. I wonder what would happen if you fed it L,R. Mathematically the output would be 0.5 * (M,S). I have no audio circuit design expertise, so this may be oversimplying things.
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#2934367 - 06/24/18 09:58 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: JazzPiano88]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
From what I've read it is the lesser quality of the SS front speaker that people are trying to overcome by effectively turning it off and using a standalone higher end powered speaker.

If that's the case, might as well physically remove the speaker and save the travel weight! (Might have to put some resistance on the disconnected leads to stop the amp from frying.)
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#2934481 - 06/25/18 05:23 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Al Quinn Online   content
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I've played the CP4 mono AP through the SS V3 and it didn't sound good. I haven't replaced the front speaker in the SS V3 because I suspect the SS V3 amp could also have a hand in the mediocre front speaker sound. For me, bringing one 25lb TT08A to gigs doesn't really impact my schlep factor.

I would love to hear a recording of an SS V3 with an upgraded front speaker playing a digital AP. Does such a recording exist? If it sounded great I would upgrade the front speaker in my SS V3.
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#2934528 - 06/25/18 10:44 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Quinn]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Hey, I never knew there was a thread about this amp!

I think we can all agree that mono-anything sounds like turd through the SS3. But even the slightest bit of stereo mitigates that stink. So rather than hacking the amp to make mono sound better, why not just add a little bit of stereo effect to the mono patch and help a poor little box out a little, huh?
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#2934558 - 06/25/18 12:53 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
bjosko Offline
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I think there are a post way back in this thread were someone tried with a more sophisticated front speaker with no progress.
But I might remember wrong, that it was the sidespeaker that was tried swapped.
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#2934565 - 06/25/18 01:07 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Hey, I never knew there was a thread about this amp!

I think we can all agree that mono-anything sounds like turd through the SS3. But even the slightest bit of stereo mitigates that stink. So rather than hacking the amp to make mono sound better, why not just add a little bit of stereo effect to the mono patch and help a poor little box out a little, huh?

I don't think anyone is considering feeding the amp with a mono signal (e.g. identical inputs into both SS input jacks). The issue is hacking the front output speaker, which is a mono version of the stereo inputs (i.e. L+R), which (a) might not sound good if derived from a stereo AP sample, and (b) can be improved by replacing its function with a higher end powered speaker.
Unless I misunderstood your comment.
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#2934574 - 06/25/18 01:37 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: JazzPiano88]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
I don't think anyone is considering feeding the amp with a mono signal (e.g. identical inputs into both SS input jacks)....Unless I misunderstood your comment.


(Read the post right above mine.)
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#2934575 - 06/25/18 01:42 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
AnotherScott Online   content
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I think you've just generated an infinite loop.
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#2934596 - 06/25/18 02:52 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Al Quinn Online   content
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I believe the talk about mono is just to narrow down the fidelity, or lack thereof, of the front speaker. For example if I play mono CP4 AP through the SS V3 it doesn’t sound good. If I play the same mono CP4 AP through a TT08A it sounds very good. Conclusion being the SS V3 front speaker / amp is mediocre, which doesn’t cut it for AP. At least not for me.
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#2934606 - 06/25/18 04:16 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: bjosko]
drawback Offline
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Originally Posted By: bjosko
I think there are a post way back in this thread were someone tried with a more sophisticated front speaker with no progress.
But I might remember wrong, that it was the sidespeaker that was tried swapped.


Page 172 by my settings. January 20 - 22, 2017. Aspen was involved in the informative read.
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#2934617 - 06/25/18 07:30 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Quinn]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I believe the talk about mono is just to narrow down the fidelity, or lack thereof, of the front speaker. For example if I play mono CP4 AP through the SS V3 it doesn’t sound good. If I play the same mono CP4 AP through a TT08A it sounds very good. Conclusion being the SS V3 front speaker / amp is mediocre, which doesn’t cut it for AP. At least not for me.

Nice crisp test (not good vs good smile ).

Not to say that the SS front speaker/amp should be expected to perform as well as the TT08A, but to demonstrate that the SS, alone, doesn't meet minimum requirements for AP amplification (for you, and many others including me).
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#2934633 - 06/25/18 09:13 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Quinn]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I believe the talk about mono is just to narrow down the fidelity, or lack thereof, of the front speaker. For example if I play mono CP4 AP through the SS V3 it doesn’t sound good. If I play the same mono CP4 AP through a TT08A it sounds very good. Conclusion being the SS V3 front speaker / amp is mediocre, which doesn’t cut it for AP. At least not for me.


That´s completely wrong !
How many threads and posts do we need explaining the SSv3 (or whatever mid/side encoder/amp/speaker existing,- exactly THIS combo) requires an input signal of STEREO content (!!!) ???

The SSv3 (and others,- if they exist) are not made to run mono signals thru ´em, period.
It´s not the speaker,- it´s the encoder/decoder !
After your signal arrived at the SSv3´s (stereo !) inputs, the signal ran thru a M/S encoder/decoder BEFORE it arrived at the frequency dividing network, the amplifiers and speakers.
And that encoder/decoder wants a STEREO signal, not a MONO (piano) signal!!!
Is that so difficult to understand when you investigated in speaker cabs and want a single source stereo projection ?
Again, it´s not the speakers, it´s the electronics and it´s INTENTIONAL !
So, when you want to project some MONO piano sample well, buy something else, but not any M/S encoding/decoding electronics driving an active speaker cab.

The solution using SSv3 (face down on the floor) plus a TT08 seemed to be completely idiotic for me.
Why do people try such things ?
When you put a SSv3 faceing down the floor, what you get is the side speaker only ... which is the worst sounding speaker of that cab.
(I always hoped they make a cab using the same combo of speakers for "side" which they use for "front").

So,- you invest in a TT08 and the SSv3,- the latter just only for the side speaker ?
No ?

I´d say that´s pretty crazy since there are so many solutions existing out there for the more or less "perfect sound" (in-ear included).

A.C.

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#2934636 - 06/25/18 09:40 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Coda]
Reezekeys Offline
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I think Al was just making a point that he's not happy with the sound of the SSv3's front speaker, regardless of the other tech! Still you're correct that it makes no sense to feed a mono signal to the SSv3 - that means the side speaker outputs nothing! So you're paying lots of money for an amp with special tech that is not used.

Again, maybe speaking out of turn so so I hope Al corrects me if I'm wrong – but the CP4 does have a stereo piano as well as a mono piano. That being the case, maybe the effect of the SSV3's side speaker by itself added to his great sounding TT08A is a good combination. It does seem a little unfortunate to be in this spot, as the SSv3 is touted as a "one box" stereo solution.

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#2934644 - 06/25/18 11:45 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
MotiDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Hey, I never knew there was a thread about this amp! ...

The typical PPA thread runs 2 pages in length, concluding with “my keyboards sound great”. 190 pages to figure out how to get a PPA is a self-declaration of something. But good luck out there ...
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#2934656 - 06/26/18 03:49 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: JazzPiano88]
Al Quinn Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I believe the talk about mono is just to narrow down the fidelity, or lack thereof, of the front speaker. For example if I play mono CP4 AP through the SS V3 it doesn’t sound good. If I play the same mono CP4 AP through a TT08A it sounds very good. Conclusion being the SS V3 front speaker / amp is mediocre, which doesn’t cut it for AP. At least not for me.

Nice crisp test (not good vs good smile ).

Not to say that the SS front speaker/amp should be expected to perform as well as the TT08A, but to demonstrate that the SS, alone, doesn't meet minimum requirements for AP amplification (for you, and many others including me).

Thanks JazzPiano88. I'm glad you and Reezekeys understood that I was simply running a test and was not suggesting the SS V3 should be used as a mono amp.

Al Coda, the fact that you misunderstood what I was saying is OK but why the rough words: idiotic to use an SS V3 with TT08A? A bit offensive, no? In your rant you told me nothing I didn't already know. So what lightweight amplification do you use that reproduces digital AP to your satisfaction. What does it weigh?
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#2934701 - 06/26/18 08:23 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
The SSv3 (and others,- if they exist) are not made to run mono signals thru ´em, period.

While the system is obviously designed to enhance stereo spaciousness, there's no inherent reason why such a speaker could not produce a mono sound as well as a mono speaker could (simply leaving the secondary speaker unused).

Originally Posted By: Al Coda

After your signal arrived at the SSv3´s (stereo !) inputs, the signal ran thru a M/S encoder/decoder BEFORE it arrived at the frequency dividing network, the amplifiers and speakers.

But that process should not deteriorate a mono sound. In fact, it should do nothing to it at all, AFAIK.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda

When you put a SSv3 faceing down the floor, what you get is the side speaker only ... which is the worst sounding speaker of that cab.

But you're not really getting the "sound" of that speaker, you're getting the effect of that speaker interacting with your primary speaker. (That's assuming a stereo input, of course. With a mono input, you get nothing at all from that speaker.)

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
So,- you invest in a TT08 and the SSv3,- the latter just only for the side speaker ?
No ?

No, rather for the effect that the combination of the SS3's processing and its side speaker have on the sound that's coming out of the TT08.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
I´d say that´s pretty crazy since there are so many solutions existing out there for the more or less "perfect sound" (in-ear included).

SS3 is often about what the audience hears. It's about the fact that traditional stereo only sounds good in a sweet spot. If you're setting up for an audience of one (yourself) you can use a pair of speakers and set yourself up in the sweet spot (or use in-ears as you say) and have great stereo. But that doesn't do anything for the audience. Though also, some just like the simplicity and smaller stage footprint of setting up one speaker rather than two even for their own monitoring, and may not like in-ears for other reasons... for example, if your stage amplification is also how your audience hears you, then in-ears are a bunch of extra effort, since now you need to do both.

Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Still you're correct that it makes no sense to feed a mono signal to the SSv3 - that means the side speaker outputs nothing! So you're paying lots of money for an amp with special tech that is not used.

Though one could also be using a combination of mono and stereo sounds. If you're playing Hammond and Minimoog sounds, both speakers of the SS3 would be engaged with the Leslie sound, while the Moog sound would come out just the main speaker, in mono. No wasted money, you're just avoiding bringing around a second, mono amp for the Moog. ;-) Though you might as well put some reverb on the Moog and add some spaciousness to it.

Really, many (possibly most) of our sounds are mono, only the effects (chorus, reverb, whatever) add any stereo-ness to them. Piano is stereo; tonewheel organ is mono but typically played through stereo rotary effect; almost all "vintage" keys are mono apart from possibly effects (Rhodes, Wurli, Minimoog, Mellotron, Clavinet, transistor organs, whatever). Most single orchestral instruments are mono sound sources (flute, violin, trumpet, sax, etc.). Often, then, the only stereo (left-right difference to be processed by the SS3) comes from reverb or other effects we may be using.
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#2934712 - 06/26/18 09:54 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Loc: California
JP88, Al, Reezekeys, Scott--

I think you might be misunderstanding. Of course the SS3 could have a better center speaker and be designed to sound as good in mono as the best mono amps.

But that's not what it is, or is for. Its value proposition is the entirety of 1) stereo-like sound, with 2) a tiny footprint, at 3) a compelling price point. Remove any one of those elements and the value proposition drops to nil, since there are 1) way better-sounding mono speakers, particularly 2) bigger ones, which abound at 3) higher prices.

Every bit of engineering in the SS3 is to maximize the 1-2-3 above. That is its entire value prop: stereo-like sound with a tiny footprint at a compelling price point. A-B-ing mono sounds is beside the point, IMO, since it's not made for it. Swapping out speakers is beside the point, since it adds price. Adding a second cab is beside the point, since you've just doubled its footprint (not to mention its price).

That's why I'm saying, the test isn't really mono a mono (SWITD?). It's value-proposition vs. value proposition.

For me, it's still the most compelling value proposition (sound times size times price) on the market, even though there are plenty of options within each of those elements that are superior to the SS3.
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#2934717 - 06/26/18 10:15 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Quinn]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn


Al Coda, the fact that you misunderstood what I was saying is OK but why the rough words: idiotic to use an SS V3 with TT08A? A bit offensive, no? In your rant you told me nothing I didn't already know. So what lightweight amplification do you use that reproduces digital AP to your satisfaction. What does it weigh?


Sorry for that,- I obviously did the mistake quoting your post.
I better just only replied.
In fact, after 190+ pages I´m bugged reading questions why a mono signal doesn´t sound good w/ the SSv3 again and again.
It wasn´t meant as a personal offense.

And yes, I find it very irritating investing in a RCF TT08 just only for optimizing the SSv3´s sound for AP sounds coming from a DP as also because the SSv3 was never designed to use w/ the woofer facing the floor.
It amuses me reading people buy a piece of gear offering tri-amped frontspeakers and then only use the crappy sounding 6" side-speaker for the so called "bloom" ... LOL !
Why all the fuss ?
To me, that´s a funny experiment, but no pro solution for live sound reproduction.
But that´s only me.

IMO, there are so many active speakers in the pricerange of a SSv3 out there sounding all better for acoustic DP sounds which are relatively lightweight and small,- Yamahas, EVs, RCFs etc., etc..

I myself, when I owned a RCF TT08 (or a pair), I´d use it and do without the SSv3.
Today, I don´t own any private stage-amplification anymore.
I wanted the SSv 3 some time ago, but passed because it doesn´t offer balanced inputs and lacks the 100Hz stereo-HPF being activated and taking LF-load from the woofer and side-speaker when a sub is connected to the mono out.

Apologizing once more ...


A.C.

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#2934724 - 06/26/18 10:29 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
JP88, Al, Reezekeys, Scott--

I think you might be misunderstanding. Of course the SS3 could have a better center speaker and be designed to sound as good in mono as the best mono amps.

But that's not what it is, or is for. Its value proposition is the entirety of 1) stereo-like sound, with 2) a tiny footprint, at 3) a compelling price point. Remove any one of those elements and the value proposition drops to nil

My point was that it should also sound good in mono. I mean, if you bring it to a gig for your stereo piano and/or organ, and you've got a mono Minimoog or Mellotron sound you need to use, what, you're supposed to bring around a second amp for that? So of course it should also sound fine in mono. If you *want* to give it spaciousness, sure, put some reverb on it. But if you're not wired up to easily do that, or you actually want the sound of a dry Moog or Mellotron, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to play a mono sound perfectly satisfactorily through the stereo amp you happen to have there anyway, and there's no reason the M/S design should inherently cause any deterioration to a mono sound played in mono.

Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Adding a second cab is beside the point, since you've just doubled its footprint.

A vertical stack doesn't need to double the footprint. But really, at that point, I think you're comparing, not "SS3" vs. "SS3+RCF" (or whatever speaker of choice), but rather "SS3" vs. "RCF+RCF" and then there are a different set of pros and cons. (And depending on which RCF or other PA speaker you choose, the cost factor could favor either solution.)

Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Still you're correct that it makes no sense to feed a mono signal to the SSv3 - that means the side speaker outputs nothing!

One more "side" point about this... if your stuff is going through a mixer, and you pan the mono signal somewhat or entirely to one side (or just use one lead), then I think you'd get the mono sound out of both speakers. Whether there's any sonic advantage (or disadvantage) to doing that, I don't know. (Well actually, I have a vague recollection of basically having done that accidentally, and finding that the mono sound did sound much better when it was playing out of both speakers from having hooked up only a single connection. But I don't want to swear to it.)
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#2934725 - 06/26/18 10:41 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Coda]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
And yes, I find it very irritating investing in a RCF TT08 just only for optimizing the SSv3´s sound for AP sounds coming from a DP

You could as easily look at it the other way around... investing in an SS3 to optimize a TT08 for stereo that doesn't limit its effect primarily to a sweet spot, and at much lower cost than a second TT08 besides.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
It amuses me reading people buy a piece of gear offering tri-amped frontspeakers and then only use the crappy sounding 6" side-speaker for the so called "bloom" ... LOL !

Because again, the point of the side speaker is not how it sounds, but how it sounds in conjunction with the front speaker. How it sounds by itself is irrelevant. The speaker is like an effect, it does something to how something else sounds. Either you like the "bloom" effect or you don't, but either way, it's not because of what the side speaker sounds like by itself. That would be like complaining about the sound of an effect pedal when listening only to its "wet" sound if it's actually designed to be mixed with the dry. It's a pointless evaluation.
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#2934727 - 06/26/18 10:47 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2793
Loc: NYC area
I'm not misunderstanding at all, imo at least. I can say without a doubt this is not the amp for me and never was. Hell, I probably shouldn't be reading or commenting in this thread at all – but it's kind of a slow week for me! As you say, the bottom line is always and of course the "value proposition" to each individual, but everyone will have their own order of things that they value. I can't see buying this, then having to bring a second amp/speaker system to make it sound good – but if someone else does, and has no problem doing that because they are getting the sound that makes them happy – case closed! So, a few people bought this amp thinking it would work well for their setups, found a few deficiencies, and instead of sending it back for a refund or selling it used and taking a loss they decided to investigate and try some other ideas to maximise their investment – good for them. Perhaps the newer & more powerful model will end the complaints about the AP sound. Or maybe Aspen will come out with a "CPS add-on" speaker that will be like the SSV3's side-firing speaker by itself – something we can add to an existing rig. That kinda makes sense to me but I'm just a piano player, what do I know? Anyway, I only wish that everyone can be as happy with their amp & speaker rig as I've been for the last 8 years with my QSCs!

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#2934730 - 06/26/18 10:52 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Al Coda]
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Sorry for that

Thank you
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