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#2899415 - 01/03/18 01:57 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MotiDave]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: MotiDave
64 lbs and $1100 is a pair of decent pro grade stereo PPAs.

Yup. The basic decision remains... do you want traditional stereo that sounds best within a sweet spot, or do you want a spacious pseudo-stereo effect that works everywhere in the venue.
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#2899417 - 01/03/18 02:02 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
64 lbs and $1100 is a pair of decent pro grade stereo PPAs.

Yup. The basic decision remains... do you want traditional stereo that sounds best within a sweet spot, or do you want a spacious pseudo-stereo effect that works everywhere in the venue depends heavily on the stereo content of the program material.

Fixed.

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#2899419 - 01/03/18 02:23 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
64 lbs and $1100 is a pair of decent pro grade stereo PPAs.

Yup. The basic decision remains... do you want traditional stereo that sounds best within a sweet spot, or do you want a spacious pseudo-stereo effect that works everywhere in the venue depends heavily on the stereo content of the program material.

Fixed.

Well, that's true in the two-speaker traditional approach, too. Send it a mono sound, you won't get stereo. So that's not any way these two approaches differ. Of course, if you want a more spacious effect out of mono (with either approach), even just adding a stereo reverb can give you something.
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#2899425 - 01/03/18 02:46 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
cphollis Offline
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Errr, not exactly.

With a pair of stereo PA monitors, send an identical mono signal to both and you'll get twice the sound, but not stereo. Useful.

With the SSv3, send mono (or two identical signals) and you'll get NOTHING from the side firing speaker. X+Y goes to the front, X-Y goes to the side. Without that side-firing speaker engaged, it collapses to an 8" coax unit of modest power and no magic.

Examples?

Most APs don't have a lot of rich native stereo content, so they don't benefit much from the SSv3 approach, but they sound just fine through a pair of self-powered PA speakers. X and Y are pretty similar, though not identical.

By contrast, something like a B3 leslie in stereo can sound amazing through SSv3 for the same reason.
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#2899426 - 01/03/18 02:47 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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It's my understanding that sending the SS mono program material means that only the front speaker is used. Does the "width" control change that? Send a mono signal to the traditional two speakers and of course you'll still have mono, but at least it'll come out of two speakers, not one. And, if you angle those two speakers apart from each other, I'm betting you'll get a lot more coverage than with the single front-facing speaker of the SS. Maybe there's a way to get a totally mono signal coming out both the front and side speakers - then I stand corrected. Of course if that is the case, what would happen when the SS sees stereo?

Honestly I don't mean to dis the SS - I'm sure it sounds great for certain kinds of program material. If you're happy with it that's all that counts. I'm happy with what I have, but if I was shopping around today I'd be curious enough to try the SS if I was able to.

[edit - Chuck beat me to it! ]


Edited by Reezekeys (01/03/18 02:48 PM)

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#2899436 - 01/03/18 04:30 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Chuck and Reese, if your point is that mono is better coming out of two speakers than one, fine. But that really doesn't have anything to do with what I was trying to say.
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#2899441 - 01/03/18 05:06 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
Raymb1 Offline
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I believe that if the signal is stereo, the front speaker has R+L sounding and the side speaker has L-R sounding.

http://aspenpittmandesigns.com/spacestation-v3/


Edited by Raymb1 (01/03/18 05:08 PM)
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#2899443 - 01/03/18 05:31 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Raymb1]
Reezekeys Offline
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Exactly, which goes to the point Chuck & I were making - a mono signal will have no L-R component, so nothing will come out the side speaker.

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#2899470 - 01/03/18 07:56 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Since I got my Spacestation 18 months or so ago, I’ve been using it a lot. Started a new steady gig recently where I’m playing left-hand bass, and even with the sub the SS3 wasn’t enough, So I broke out my pair of QSC K8’s. I have to say I was blown away by how much more hi-fi and clear the sound was. I know the audience may not be getting the same stereo experience I am but still it was heaven. Makes me wonder why someone doesn’t just make a processor that will allow you to use to powered monitors but still get the less directional out-of-phase stereo dispersion? I bet there’s a way I can experiment with that in mainstage ....

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#2899482 - 01/03/18 09:22 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Bill Spencer]
cphollis Offline
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"Why doesn't someone make a processor?"

Two thing to consider?

First, Aspen owns the patents on all of this. Props to him.

Second, physical placement really, really matters. Hence the focus on engineered cabinets that get the placement right.

Back in the day, Aspen made a generic processor. But few musos could translate it into the real world. So he went down a more constrictive path.

You're welcome to experiment, as have others. But few have been able to achieve the same results.

The best "science project" experiments have been with the SSv3 facing the floor (deactivated) and a higher-end PA unit placed over the center point.

I've done this a few times, and it's worked quite well. But it doesn't scale, unfortunately.
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#2899497 - 01/04/18 01:47 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: cphollis]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
"Why doesn't someone make a processor?"

Two thing to consider?

First, Aspen owns the patents on all of this. Props to him.

The SSV3 creates a stereo image from a stereo signal through multiple speakers mounted in the same enclosure.

Feeding a stereo signal to two speakers has been around longer than the SSV3 as have DSP's and software that simulate a stereo image from a mono signal through two speakers. And Omnipolar speakers which could easily be rewired to create a similar effect from a single enclosure.

Already discussed earlier in season 2 of this thread.

I don't think Aspen is in a position to close down Dolby Labs or any other mono to stereo vendor for patent infingement as that is not what the SSV3 does.
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#2899636 - 01/04/18 01:33 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Bill Spencer]
Struckers Offline
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Bill Spencer: The sound was clearer and more hi-fi with the QSC's? Is it fair to say the QSC's are a better choice for accurate reproduction of acoustic instruments, while the SS3 might be a better choice for Hammond/Rhodes/El.Guitar/Chorused-type sounds?

I can only afford one or the other, not both.

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#2899654 - 01/04/18 03:11 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Struckers]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Struckers
Bill Spencer: The sound was clearer and more hi-fi with the QSC's? Is it fair to say the QSC's are a better choice for accurate reproduction of acoustic instruments, while the SS3 might be a better choice for Hammond/Rhodes/El.Guitar/Chorused-type sounds?

I would say that the QSC K8.2 (or even the cheaper and lighter but still excellent EV ZXa1) are more accurate than the SS3 for acoustic instruments, most notably piano (probably the toughest thing to get sounding right), though the SS3 can be competitive with some EQ. The reason to choose the SS3 is to create a spacious stereo-like sound (a) out of a single compact box and (b) in a manner that presents that spacious sound throughout the listening area. (And in a nod to a couple of messages above, yes, this assumes you're using a stereo source to begin with. Otherwise there's no advantage to the SS3.)
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#2899670 - 01/04/18 04:36 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
MotiDave Offline
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I've got one word for you: Quadraphenia.
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#2899709 - 01/04/18 08:41 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
cphollis Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Struckers
Bill Spencer: The sound was clearer and more hi-fi with the QSC's? Is it fair to say the QSC's are a better choice for accurate reproduction of acoustic instruments, while the SS3 might be a better choice for Hammond/Rhodes/El.Guitar/Chorused-type sounds?

I would say that the QSC K8.2 (or even the cheaper and lighter but still excellent EV ZXa1) are more accurate than the SS3 for acoustic instruments, most notably piano (probably the toughest thing to get sounding right), though the SS3 can be competitive with some EQ. The reason to choose the SS3 is to create a spacious stereo-like sound (a) out of a single compact box and (b) in a manner that presents that spacious sound throughout the listening area. (And in a nod to a couple of messages above, yes, this assumes you're using a stereo source to begin with. Otherwise there's no advantage to the SS3.)


Agreed. If you can spring for a pair of K8.2s, go there and don't look back.
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#2899716 - 01/04/18 09:34 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Bill Spencer]
U.Honey Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
Makes me wonder why someone doesn’t just make a processor that will allow you to use to powered monitors


With Spacestation the front facing speaker is L+R and side speaker is L-R. So, if I:

1. Take a pair of powered speakers, stack one on top of the other facing 90 degrees away from the other.
2. Plug a mono signal ( = L+R ) to the other speaker.
3. Filip the phase of right channel 180 degrees and sum the resulting -R with L ( = L-R ) and plug that to the other speaker.

I should have Center Point Stereo using powered speakers. Why do I need a ‘processor’? What am I missing?
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#2899718 - 01/04/18 09:52 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: U.Honey]
J. Dan Offline
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That would be correct - no other processor needed, but the side firing speaker needs to fire in 2 directions - essentially figure 8 pattern, and be in close proximity to the front firing speaker. The only other processing necessary to match things up would be crossover and EQ, and possibly some phase adjustment to correct for the relative positions of the speakers and time alignment.
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#2899720 - 01/04/18 10:15 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: J. Dan]
U.Honey Online   content
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Originally Posted By: J. Dan
That would be correct - no other processor needed, but the side firing speaker needs to fire in 2 directions - essentially figure 8 pattern, and be in close proximity to the front firing speaker. The only other processing necessary to match things up would be crossover and EQ, and possibly some phase adjustment to correct for the relative positions of the speakers and time alignment.


Why do I need a crossover? And, SSv3 has only on side firing speaker doing L-R, doesn’t it? Why do I need R-L if SSv3 doesn’t have it?
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#2899722 - 01/04/18 10:23 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: U.Honey]
J. Dan Offline
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I don't own a SS V3 so maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the side speaker fired out both sides. Is that incorrect?

Crossover wouldn't necessarily be needed if you're using active speakers that already have crossovers, but you still have the issue of relative position, directionality, phasing, etc.
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#2899761 - 01/05/18 06:08 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: U.Honey]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: U.Honey
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
Makes me wonder why someone doesn’t just make a processor that will allow you to use to powered monitors


With Spacestation the front facing speaker is L+R and side speaker is L-R. So, if I:

1. Take a pair of powered speakers, stack one on top of the other facing 90 degrees away from the other.
2. Plug a mono signal ( = L+R ) to the other speaker.
3. Filip the phase of right channel 180 degrees and sum the resulting -R with L ( = L-R ) and plug that to the other speaker.

I should have Center Point Stereo using powered speakers. Why do I need a ‘processor’? What am I missing?

As Dan has pointed out, the side-firing speaker goes out both sides. And the sides are 180° out of phase by virtue of the movement of the speaker cone. It's mid/side stereo recording's inverse.

I'm posting to say that I tried exactly what you described with my two QSC speakers. Since I use Plogue Bidule on my laptop rig, it was a matter of about 30 seconds to "wire" up a m/s encoder. It did not work. What might work is if the side-pointing amp you used was an open-back design. I suspect there are alignment issues though.

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#2899765 - 01/05/18 06:30 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
What might work is if the side-pointing amp you used was an open-back design.

Yes, I think that's the main missing piece is this experiment. Either an open-back design, or a third speaker (i.e.yet another QSC) aimed 180 degrees away from your other side-facing QSC, and sent an out-of-phase signal to the first. Then we're getting closer to what should at least theoretically work.
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#2899768 - 01/05/18 06:42 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: U.Honey]
Rofox Offline
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As the sum of two signals, L+R is the same as R+L. Similarly the difference, L-R = R-L. The SS3's side facing speaker, which handles the difference, is an open-back design which means each side is out of phase with the other.
If I have misunderstood your question - my apologies.

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#2899997 - 01/06/18 06:21 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Rofox]
cphollis Offline
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If you scroll back 175 pages or so (just kidding!) there was a discussion around "why can't I?". It comes up regularly here.

Bottom line, you can't. At least, not easily.

Aspen said that, in addition to signal processing, you have to precisely choose and orient the speaker components.

He shared that many years ago he had a standalone processor, but none of his customers could get the other bits right, so he stopped making them.

What you *can* do is augment the front speaker by laying the SSv3 face down, side speaker firing side, and placing a nice self-powered PA unit on top.
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#2900002 - 01/06/18 06:34 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Rofox]
MotiDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rofox
As the sum of two signals, L+R is the same as R+L. Similarly the difference, L-R = R-L. The SS3's side facing speaker, which handles the difference, is an open-back design which means each side is out of phase with the other.
If I have misunderstood your question - my apologies.

What difference does it make if one side is out of phase with the other? And are they really out of phase or is it the same sound coming out side1 and side2?
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#2900063 - 01/06/18 11:02 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MotiDave]
Rofox Offline
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Yes, they are out of phase. At any given instant what emanates from the front of the speaker will be 180 degrees out of phase with what comes from the rear. As to whether this few millisecond delay enhances the spacial aspect I'll leave it to those whith golden ears" to decide but I suspect it might.


Edited by Rofox (01/06/18 11:05 AM)

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#2900066 - 01/06/18 11:12 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Rofox]
AnotherScott Offline
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I don't think the delay is relevant. I think the mix of sounds being in and out of phase with each other is.
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#2900071 - 01/06/18 11:27 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Ledbetter Offline
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The two sides of the side firing are 180 degrees out of phase. No question. It is what creates the 3D effect. This is way different from stereo in my opinion. I use mine exclusively as a stage monitor or practice amp. I send stereo to FOH from a second set of mixer outputs. If you’re concerned about the size of the “sweet spot,” place your speakers at the extreme sides of the stage and angle them in 20 or 30 degrees.
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#2900073 - 01/06/18 11:32 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
MathOfInsects Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MotiDave

What difference does it make if one side is out of phase with the other? And are they really out of phase or is it the same sound coming out side1 and side2?


They are exactly and specifically out of phase, in that, speaker cone moves forward and sends a disturbance in air pressure forward, then moves back again, and that movement backward is the opposite side's movement forward. So each side, is pulsing at exactly the opposite times. = exactly opposite phases.

Because of the L-R aspect of the side speaker, being exactly out of phase means the other side is -L+R, which is also expressed as R-L--the exact opposite of the open side. So...

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I don't think the delay is relevant. I think the mix of sounds being in and out of phase with each other is.

The delay certainly helps with the spacious and non-cancelling aspect of the signals. But the open-back is serving to mimic an R and L signal by producing L-R on one side, and R-L on the other.

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#2904403 - 01/24/18 07:54 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
DomH Offline
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Just acquired a used SSv.3, could anyone tell me whether the hiss I have coming from the side speaker and which increases as the width level is increased, is a 'feature' of the 3D effect or a sign of a fault.

It only comes out of the side speaker (no cables are plugged in)?

Thanks

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#2904418 - 01/24/18 09:19 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: DomH]
davedoerfler Online   confused
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I have no discernible hiss coming out of my side speaker.
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