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#2854685 - 05/10/17 09:11 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: TimA]
dsetto Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/15
Posts: 470
My read on the recent comments is Tim was joking. ... And Reeze definitely was being hypothetical. Those two speakers seem to be 2 notable examples of the two basic kinds of amplification. A 1-box amplifier. A dual PA. But, what do I know?

--
I fully agree with most all points. We're never gonna get there. We're gonna always keep trying to get there. It matters. It doesn't. It does.

This subject is a box, better left closed for some. Every mobile pianist encounters it. Each decides if, when, and how to deal with it.

I think the correlation between the sound pursuit and keyboard ability is vast enough to not be informative.

This is the best place to get solid progress on this topic. That I do know.

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KC Island
#2854690 - 05/10/17 09:34 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: TimA]
Reezekeys Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 1757
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: TimA
"my hearing you through a SSv3 or TT08 or 20 Magnepans"
Tim's the only one who has ever commented on or used all three of those...how could he not take that personal?

OK I have confession to make - I drop in occasionally on this thread, it being 182 pages in my browser (so far). I read through the last few messages to see if there's anything interesting to me - maybe I should have read more closely. I didn't see anything in a recent message from Tim attesting to using or hearing a TT08, although going back I see that he has an SSv3 and has heard Magnepans. Regardless, again, I was not intending to single him or anyone else out for any kind of put-down – although I can now see how it could look like that. I'm truly sorry! I used those speakers' names as examples of "high-endiness" to frame what I thought was my Captain Obvious bloviations regarding the quest for emulating an impossible-to-emulate sound and how I've accepted the compromises & differences. In the future I will refrain from sticking my 2p/2¢ worth into any thread that I have not thoroughly read from the beginning, so as to catch any possible stupidities on my part!

(And BTW Tim it was your mention of Magnepans that made me want to use them in my example! I had forgotten about those until I read your message - it made me think of a golden-eared friend with a pair, which I've experienced. I would love to try those with my DP! I'm pretty sure I'd like them a lot.)

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#2854733 - 05/11/17 06:38 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
Jazzooo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/01
Posts: 487
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico
I'm still waiting for tim's cinco de mayo sorority gig photos.

As for recreating the "sound of an AP in a room? In many situations, that would simply mean you can't really hear it well in a band context. The minute you amplify a piano, the only remaining benefit of it being an AP is for the player, imo. The audience isn't hearing the piano so much as the sound system's interpretation of it.

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#2854739 - 05/11/17 06:59 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Jazzooo]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 1757
Loc: NYC area
I agree 100%, and add my opinion that if the room is noisy and you have to compensate by playing ff or fff to hear yourself, there is really no benefit to an AP unless you need to see and feel all that wood in front of you and beneath your fingers. To many players that's a legitimate reason for preferring the AP no matter the sonic environment, and I have no argument with them. Since I've done 99% of my gigging in electrified settings, I'm used to the total separation of instrument and sound source.

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#2854761 - 05/11/17 08:12 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
Jazzooo Offline
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Registered: 01/17/01
Posts: 487
Loc: San Miguel de Allende, Mexico
Dn't get me wrong--some of my favorite gigs have been with an acoustic piano and a sensitive trio. But if you need to project to the back of the room, or if your drummer is a tad heavy-handed then like Reeze says you end up playing without the kind of nuance we all love from an AP in the first place.

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#2854763 - 05/11/17 08:30 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Reezekeys]
dsetto Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/15
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
... Since I've done 99% of my gigging in electrified settings, I'm used to the total separation of instrument and sound source.
This, a key thing.

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#2854836 - 05/11/17 01:02 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: dsetto]
WWW Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 908
Loc: NYC
I just got the newest SS. You know, the 32 pound one
I still have my old V.3. I am afraid to say that although the newer one is much lighter, it does not sound nearly as good. It is very honky through the mid range.
It absolutely obliterates the tonality of acoustic piano. (NS2 HA88) And, it simply does not sound as warm. In fact, it exaggerates all of the worst features of the unit. I wish it were not so, but it is.
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#2854841 - 05/11/17 01:09 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
Dglavko Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 653
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Have the speakers been broken in?

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#2854844 - 05/11/17 01:25 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Dglavko]
timwat Offline
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Reezekeys, understood.

Combination of misreading your intent and me having a pretty stressed day.

As far as pix from my Cinco de Mayo sorority gig - sorry, it would have been pretty inappropriate for me to try to snap any.

Suffice to say, Stanford has some of the most fetching coeds in the US (wealth buys many things). They were pretty lit when we arrived for load in, packed crowd with lots of alcohol. It started wild and quickly got much wilder.

Use your imagination, then triple that. Yeah, it went down like that smile
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#2854845 - 05/11/17 01:26 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Dglavko]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dglavko
Have the speakers been broken in?


While speaker break in can render improvements, I'm skeptical it would render such large-scale improvements that it would reverse what WWW is hearing. I hope I'm wrong, but this doesn't sound great.
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#2854846 - 05/11/17 01:32 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
rockinredeye Offline
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Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 244
Loc: Shreveport, LA
I have an older SS2, if that's what it's called, and it has a bit of honk in the midrange if I don't EQ it. So my possibly dumb question is: Have you EQ'd it, either on the unit itself or maybe with external EQ? I'm happy with the way mine sounds and would be surprised if the new ones were uncorrectably honky.
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#2854847 - 05/11/17 01:37 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 5770
Loc: thin ice
Originally Posted By: WWW

It absolutely obliterates the tonality of acoustic piano. (NS2 HA88)


curious if you have tried the "Royal Grand 3D" piano in your Stage Piano the the SS3
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#2854855 - 05/11/17 02:13 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: davedoerfler]
WWW Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 908
Loc: NYC
Yes, I've tried all of the major pianos in the NS2.
And, yes, I broke in the speakers over 15 hours of playing live gigs. I live in Key West Florida, and I work a minimum of five nights a week. My SSV.3 has been my go to amplifier for over a year now. The brand-new one just doesn't cut it. Even my bandmates asked me what's wrong with my sound. I used to use 2 DXR10's. clearly, that is a better solution. But the CPS is simply smaller, and easier to transport. I transport all of my gear on a small motorcycle trailer. That includes my NS2 88, pedalboard, amp and throne. So, I am willing to compromise with the CPS. But I can't accept the new one, however convenient it may be. It certainly is not awful. It just is not good enough.
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#2854857 - 05/11/17 02:19 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 5770
Loc: thin ice
thanks for that quick answer. This is the same scenario that dB reported about his bandmates recently.
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#2854858 - 05/11/17 02:19 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Northern California
I don't want to be argumentative, but might I suggest the correct statement would be, "the new one I bought just isn't good enough"... we don't know how many of the new version sound like the one you bought. You might see if your dealer would allow you to return it as defective and see what the replacement sounds like. We just don't know how much variation there is in a given manufacturing run.

I would agree, however that it's LIKELY they all will sound like the one you got, we just can't be sure enough to make such a broad generalization.

Also it could be true that the 'old' one you're referencing it to happened to be a particularly great sounding one of that run. Begs the question of how much consistency to expect in amplifiers in general.


Edited by Bill Spencer (05/11/17 02:22 PM)

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#2854861 - 05/11/17 02:30 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Bill Spencer]
WWW Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 908
Loc: NYC
Actually, I got one from Sweetwater. It was nonfunctional and sounded terrible. This unit is the replacement. It works completely properly. It just does not sound good
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#2854862 - 05/11/17 02:33 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: davedoerfler]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
KCFFL Champ '14, '16
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Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 18656
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
This is the same scenario that dB reported about his bandmates recently.

...and I also said the midrange is where I had my issues. And that Nord pianos were especially problematic.

WWW - are you hearing a difference in dynamics in the mids between the two units, especially on pianos?

dB
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#2854863 - 05/11/17 02:33 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
WWW Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 908
Loc: NYC
As for the comment that maybe my first unit is a particularly good one does not cut it. I have never had an experience with amplifiers produced by reputable manufacturers which differ substantially, or even noticeably. Believe me, I have been through many many powered speakers.
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#2854864 - 05/11/17 02:33 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Northern California
Gee, not very confidence inspiring. Did you contact Aspen? He'll likely want to send you a replacement directly.


Edited by Bill Spencer (05/11/17 02:34 PM)

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#2854865 - 05/11/17 02:34 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: WWW
As for the comment that maybe my first unit is a particularly good one does not cut it. I have never had an experience with amplifiers produced by reputable manufacturers which differ substantially, or even noticeably. Believe me, I have been through many many powered speakers.


Yeah. Me, too.

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#2854866 - 05/11/17 02:36 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
WWW Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 908
Loc: NYC
Dave, yes. The dynamics are completely off on the new unit. Your initial review was very gracious. So I assumed it was a minor matter, and I could make the small compromise in quality to have a back up unit, and a decrease in weight. To put it simply, I was wrong. The new unit just does not sound good enough. The amplifier, to begin with, is somewhat of a compromise compared to high-quality close monitoring amplification which I have used in the past. Any drop in quality, especially a significant compromise such as this, makes the unit unserviceable. And that is truly unfortunate
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#2854880 - 05/11/17 04:21 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
16251 Offline
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Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 2502
Originally Posted By: WWW
Dave, yes. The dynamics are completely off on the new unit. Your initial review was very gracious. So I assumed it was a minor matter, and I could make the small compromise in quality to have a back up unit, and a decrease in weight. To put it simply, I was wrong. The new unit just does not sound good enough. The amplifier, to begin with, is somewhat of a compromise compared to high-quality close monitoring amplification which I have used in the past. Any drop in quality, especially a significant compromise such as this, makes the unit unserviceable. And that is truly unfortunate


I was considering the SSv3Lite and offered to trade mine to dB, but he talked me out of it. I'm sorry you're going through this but it helps me to accept the extra 7lbs, which isn't much but as 60, it's all about weight/schlep.

Did you buy the new one cause you too wanted to loose the weight?
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#2854887 - 05/11/17 05:09 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: 16251]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 5770
Loc: thin ice
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
but this goes against Alan Steinberger's review a few pages back.
Alan also commented on how well the Nord Royal Grand sounded through the new SS.


Correct. Which is exactly why I specifically asked about that piano sample. Seems quite the conundrum. idk
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#2854891 - 05/11/17 05:52 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: davedoerfler]
WWW Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 908
Loc: NYC
No conundrum. Just mine and dB's ears. It's pretty easy to hear. Not at all subtle. In fact, I am at a gig right now. I just switched out the amp with my older one, and it sounds exactly right. And, dramatically different from the new improved lighter version.
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#2854904 - 05/11/17 08:02 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: WWW]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 5770
Loc: thin ice
well, as I see it, the conundrum is that you and dB hear it one way and Alan hears it another way. So far, however, Alan is the only one who says the new one sounds just as good if not "better" than the older version. Please understand I believe you, I'm just curious how Alan hears it so differently.
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#2854913 - 05/11/17 10:03 PM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: davedoerfler]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3065
Loc: Victoria, BC Canada
Bearing in mind dB's post re: midrange, and the fact that a Nord Stage has the most responsive sweepable mids of any keyboard I've owned, my hunch is Alan's EQ settings have a lot to do with his satisfaction level. Mine certainly did. I was able to dial in a better piano sound out of my SSv.3 from my NS2 than I could with my CP4. Then again, I haven't used an outboard equalizer.

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#2854947 - 05/12/17 06:26 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: drawback]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
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Originally Posted By: drawback
Bearing in mind dB's post re: midrange, and the fact that a Nord Stage has the most responsive sweepable mids of any keyboard I've owned, my hunch is Alan's EQ settings have a lot to do with his satisfaction level. Mine certainly did. I was able to dial in a better piano sound out of my SSv.3 from my NS2 than I could with my CP4. Then again, I haven't used an outboard equalizer.


Just only a general statement:

I never ever used any EQ on electronic keyboard instruments at all,- except the electromagnetic instruments (Rhodes, Clav, Wurli etc.).
I never found it very useful equalizing synths and ROMplers when performing live.
Studio work is a different story and when using individual outputs (if available) from keyboards and/or modules.
P.ex. on my PC3, the master- EQ is off always,- compressor too.

Means, I always tried to buy (or rent) amplification and speakers that didn´t require additional/ external EQ usage just only for my monitoring system.
What they do @FOH is a different story too.

A.C.
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#2854976 - 05/12/17 08:21 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: timwat]
MotiDave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1376
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: timwat
Reezekeys, understood.

Combination of misreading your intent and me having a pretty stressed day.

As far as pix from my Cinco de Mayo sorority gig - sorry, it would have been pretty inappropriate for me to try to snap any.

Suffice to say, Stanford has some of the most fetching coeds in the US (wealth buys many things). They were pretty lit when we arrived for load in, packed crowd with lots of alcohol. It started wild and quickly got much wilder.

Use your imagination, then triple that. Yeah, it went down like that smile


with all due respect, good sir, you are a musician! there is no depth of inappropriateness for which a professional musician is not granted license and latitude. We've spent years, decades, eons nurturing and reinforcing this cultural exemption to otherwise accepted behavior, we must maintain traditions!

I'm pretty sure its in the musician's code of conduct smile


Edited by MotiDave (05/12/17 08:24 AM)
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#2854980 - 05/12/17 08:57 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: drawback]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Registered: 09/24/00
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Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: drawback
Bearing in mind dB's post re: midrange, and the fact that a Nord Stage has the most responsive sweepable mids of any keyboard I've owned, my hunch is Alan's EQ settings have a lot to do with his satisfaction level. Mine certainly did. I was able to dial in a better piano sound out of my SSv.3 from my NS2 than I could with my CP4. Then again, I haven't used an outboard equalizer.

I've never used an outboard EQ on any rig either. Never felt the need. I do sometimes make some fine tune adjustments with an amp's onboard shelves if they're available and I feel it'll help in a given space...but not that much usually.

To be clear, the difference in actual midrange frequency response between the two revs is only part of my problem. The lack of dynamics (which is especially noticeable for me in the midrange of piano sounds) is the thing that bugs me the most. Maybe the mid frequency response is accentuating that - I dunno.

If I had to try to describe it better, it sounds/feels kinda like it runs into a wall....and it's not a lot bettter with my go to PC3 programs than it was with the Nord.

dB
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#2854987 - 05/12/17 09:12 AM Re: Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Dave Bryce]
drawback Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3065
Loc: Victoria, BC Canada
dB, just for interest's sake – IIRC you were very happy at one time with Line6 StageSource. Have you ever tried one of them combined with your SSv.3, as you had with your K8?

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