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#2586854 04/05/14 07:54 PM
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Well, I went over Purchasing Department's head and ordered a K&M 18880 stand in black, with a 18881 tier.

First impression is that it's a kick ass stand and I'm going to be really happy with it. It's a bit fussy to set up the first time, requiring a tool (flat little wrench, supplied) to set the height. Also, once set up, while it's quite stable, it *seems* a bit rickety, because some of the tubes rattle inside other tubes. I fixed that pretty quickly by wrapping the inner tubes (legs and tier) in a couple layers of electrical tape, and now it feels solid.

It's light as a feather. One worry I have is, if I put something like a Privia PX-5S and Nord Electro on it, will it bounce away from me, or blow over in a light breeze? (It's really that light.) We'll see; if it happens, it's solvable, but it would dig at me to add weight to the rig just to add weight! Since I'm still using my 55 lb XR76, I'm not worried.

It'll be replacing a pair of X stands: one heavy duty double-brace, and one heavy-duty single brace (which I turned upside down and hacked off what were originally the front "feet", using what were the back feet as the shelf arms, to get it to reach farther over my lower tier.) They're fast to set up, but bulky, heavy, and inconvenient to carry. The 18880 should be even faster to set up and tear down, and is nothing to carry.

I'm leaving the cross brace at home. It doesn't seem to be necessary, adds a few setup steps, and poses a minor transport issue I'd have to solve (probably with a rubber band.)

First live trial tomorrow night, at the Triangle Blues Society jam at Papa Mojo's Roadhouse.

Come by and sit in! The last two jams, I was the only keyboard player. (Before I started joining, they didn't have a keyboard player at all.) Plus I like to hear my rig when it's playing the right notes, for a change. smile

The Purchasing Department gave me a pass, since I've been a good boy two whole years, holding off replacing the nearly worn-out MR76. (We won't mention the Steinway grand just before that, but that was before our current cash flow crunch so it doesn't count! Plus I got a super bargain on that, thanks to Jimmy BluesKeys.)

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Folds up nicely, see below. That's with two additional tiers, but with the tiers collapsed vertically, and in this position, they'd slide out. I don't plan to collapse mine vertically; it fits just fine by just pushing the two sides together, closing the accordion brace.


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Like mine too (love the weight) but it's a bit low for me, even when sitting, and can't ever stand up playing it, and it looks rather unsubstantial, if looks matter. Any mods out there to boost the height?

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How would you feel about putting an 88 on top and two lightweights below? I'm trying to replicate my organ rig without the organ, as a backup.


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I've used one of these for the past 2 years -- first standing and then sitting. I think it's great -- super fast to set up, light to carry, and very solid.


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I purchased the same stand and tier add on recently. Not gigged with it yet. I need to try and accomodate a Kronos 76 and Nord C2D onto this. I am unsure as I type, which board is going to be on the bottom. The Kronos I believe is the heavier of the two and it would probably be unwise as a top tier board, making it top heavy.

Definitley retaining the brace, the only downside is it won't fold flat completely and standing against a wall has to be upside down.


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I've just ordered my second one of these. It's my second, because a) the accordion brace on my old one has distorted somewhat with much use, leading to it basically almost seizing up and b) I inadvertently lost a number of bits off it at a load-out in the dark one night. So I've decided to get another and cannibalise the old one for spares.

I've ordered the same again because there's really nothing else out there which is as convenient and light (and relatively quick to set up, too).

I also have the second tier which is on and off as required. Never had anything heavier than my PC361 on the top but it copes fine with an 88 on the bottom. I wouldn't worry about it blowing over, either.

The only vulnerability, in my experience, is that accordion mechanism. From experience, it appears to need a bit of babying. At the very least, I'd let it see some WD40 fairly regularly. For the same reason, I'd think twice about not using the cross-brace. It's a bit of PITA, as Gary notes, but it does add further stability to the structure and possibly protects the accordion mechanism from extra strain too.

And, from bitter experience, make sure everything is tightly screwed down on the thing before you load it out!


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I've been using the 18880 & 18881 combination for several years now. Got it while I had an Electro 3-73 - it seemed ridiculous for the stand to be heavier than the keyboard. I keep mine folded up with a couple of short bungee cords. Very well made, aircraft grade aluminum. It is a bit pricy, but there is nothing else on the market like it.

I've had the PC3 upper and PC3X lower on it several times, although the PC361 upper and PC3 lower is more common (or frequently just the PC3 lower and nothing on the upper tier).

If you leave the upper tier on all the time, you can re-mount the cross brace so it doesn't stick out longer than the rest of the stand.

This combo replaced my OnStage tabletop stand for single board gigs, and an OnStage 2-tier Z stand for double board gigs. I really like the Z stand in a fixed location, but it is too much trouble to fold up and move around all the time.

I've not had any problems with the accordion section - but I do "baby" it when opening and closing.


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Hello, I'm considering getting either the K&M 18880 or OnStage KS7365EJ stand. I like the ease of setup and weight for the K&M but was thinking of getting organ pedals like Hammonds Xpk-200L which are supposed to be 34" wide. The OnStage looks like it could handle that but I'm wondering what that's like to teardown and setup? K&M's width supposedly is 32.4". If I replaced the cross brace with a longer one (which would lower the stand also, I prefer 24" height for bottom board) do you think that's doable or would the OnStage be a better option?

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Jogger, I think that would make the stand far too low. I have the same Hammond pedals for my Mojo and have a Quiklok WS550 for that purpose. That's quite a wide stand when opened up and they only JUST fit under that.


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I guess you're right about the height I wasn't thinking about the space I would need for my legs moving up to play the pedals. Not sure why the pedals wouldn't fit or be tight they're listed 34 inches wide but maybe that's not correct?
thanks for your help

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Originally Posted By: jogger
K&M's width supposedly is 32.4". If I replaced the cross brace with a longer one (which would lower the stand also

Replacing the cross brace will not lower the stand. This is not like an X stand. There is no correlation between how wide you make it and how high it is; the height is fixed at your desired height no matter how narrow or wide you make it.

That said, there is no way to increase the K&M width to accommodate a 34" pedalboard. This has nothing to do with the cross brace (which can often be dispensed with anyway), it is simply beyond the maximum width that the scissor mechanism will permit.


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Well spotted Scott. I must be having a slow day!


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Originally Posted By: Dglavko
Like mine too (love the weight) but it's a bit low for me, even when sitting, and can't ever stand up playing it, and it looks rather unsubstantial, if looks matter. Any mods out there to boost the height?
Huh? It's very adjustable. I have it to about the middle of the height range, which is where I can play both tiers sitting or standing. I'm 6'1", and use a cheap folding stool (considerably higher than a chair, lower than a barstool -- 24" IIRC.)

Originally Posted By: WesG
How would you feel about putting an 88 on top and two lightweights below? I'm trying to replicate my organ rig without the organ, as a backup.
With 3 tiers? Hmmm. It'd be OK with a modern 88, but I might be hesitant with an older beast (60 lbs or more). When I get a chance I'll put my 55 pounder on top just to see (but I use only 2 tiers total, unlike either picture above.)

Originally Posted By: b3boy
Definitley retaining the brace, the only downside is it won't fold flat completely and standing against a wall has to be upside down.
I don't understand. At the height I have it set, after removing the brace from one side, it hangs down the right leg, and all I'd need is a rubber band to hold it -- and I'd only need that if I had it upside down (or to hold it while carrying). I believe you (or someone) mentioned this on another thread, and I didn't understand it then either. Now that I have one in hand, I'm totally confused. The crossbar attaches at the top, so why would you need to lean it upside down when collapsed?

Also, the brace has no impact on how thin it collapses. (I have the knobs and nuts that hold the tier facing outside so that it collapses thin. It might be wiser to have them face inward so they don't get knocked off, but the way I pack my car they should be safe.)



Originally Posted By: Aidan
I also have the second tier which is on and off as required.
I won't be removing the tier much. When I use a single tier, I'll probably use an X stand.

Quote:
The only vulnerability, in my experience, is that accordion mechanism. From experience, it appears to need a bit of babying. At the very least, I'd let it see some WD40 fairly regularly. For the same reason, I'd think twice about not using the cross-brace. It's a bit of PITA, as Gary notes, but it does add further stability to the structure and possibly protects the accordion mechanism from extra strain too.
Good point and thanks for the warning. I told my wife that this should be my "last stand" (pun intended, of course). Your advice may help me keep that promise.

Quote:
And, from bitter experience, make sure everything is tightly screwed down on the thing before you load it out!
No kidding! But I won't be loosening anything but the cross braces, and won't be tightening them when it's collapsed.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: jogger
K&M's width supposedly is 32.4". If I replaced the cross brace with a longer one (which would lower the stand also

Replacing the cross brace will not lower the stand.
Correct, as always, Scott!
Quote:
That said, there is no way to increase the K&M width to accommodate a 34" pedalboard. This has nothing to do with the cross brace (which can often be dispensed with anyway), it is simply beyond the maximum width that the scissor mechanism will permit.
It does go considerably farther than the brace, though. I notice that the tiers I got are rather different than the ones shown above (they have adjustable tilt). There may be other differences in the stands over the years. I'll measure mine next chance I get and let you know, but it does go WAY farther than the brace. However, it'll be weaker at that width, too, due to the shallow angle on the accordions (I think ... didn't do the math!) But my guess is a Z stand is probably best for use with a big pedalboard.

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I very much like mine. I use it for gigging standing up. There is no problem with stability with a 50lb Yamaha S90XS.

The one downside to the stand would be that while the stand sets up and breaks down almost instantly. The height adjustment, if changed, would require a little bit of time to adjust. For this reason, I keep the stands height fixed and just use it to take with me gigging. At home I leave the K&M Omega fixed in a sitting position.


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Right: changing height requires tools and needs to be done where you can find a bolt, washer, or nut if you drop it. And it's a bit fiddly. With a drill press, it could be modified to take clevis pins, but it'd be a bit rickety: tightening the screws there helps solidify the stand. I think I nailed the height (guesswork since I didn't have my boards with me when I set it up). It's barely high enough to play the bottom board standing, and low enough so that both are comfortable sitting.

It worked great at the gig. As it turns out I did have to remove one tier arm, just because space was so tight on "stage". (In quotes because it's not elevated, and we moved one two-top to make room for me.) That turned out to be a quick operation.

During load-out there was more room and it wasn't necessary; the only issue there was the guitarist who thought that right behind my keyboards (where my stool was) was the best place for him to stash his guitars, and stand there fiddling with his bits while I'm waiting to get back there and finish packing up my rig!

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It is a good stand. I am careful with it, and it performs perfectly. I only have 2 tiers, and took the back brace off as soon as I got it and have never put it back on.

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I got mine last year with a second tier to start playing double tier, with the stage2-76 on bottom and the sk1-73 on top - relatively light boards (although the nord seems to be getting heavier by the day...) - coming from the nord screw on legs as well as a quiklok m91 - the k&m imho does not look as cool or solid as either of those two stand options - but - I got it because I was looking for the lightest most stable option and taking feedback on this forum into consideration - thanks everyone - and it is light! and it is quick to set up! and once set up with those boards, it is not only solid, but the whole setup with both short boards is compact and good looking!

it would be nice to have easier ability to adjust height and also to bring the two tiers closer together, although I am happy with mine at the lowest setting for both tiers - I do use a hydraulic rocnsoc stool and often adjust my stool height depending on which board I'm focused on and how I am feeling...

considering removing the cross brace based on above comments...

overall really liking it...


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All that's needed to bring the two tiers closer together is a drill press and the skill to use it (or a friend who has those). I'm considering that, but I find the current minimum distance is working well enough.

I'm tempted to shorten the tier arms so the top board sits farther back, but I won't do that for quite a while if at all.

The only instability is that there's a bit of lateral swing. Back when I was playing organ on a weighted board, palm smears would have been a nuisance, but with the Electro it's not a problem. (At first I did have to catch the Nord a couple times as it flew off the stand to the right during a too emphatic smear!) I noted the lateral bounce after setting it up, but didn't notice it during playing. That's without the cross-brace. Next gig I'll try it with the brace, just for comparison.

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I made my own second tier with a hockey stick (painted black, and cut to ab out 12 inches each) - as these fit perfectly in the tier slots. It's not quite a tier mind you as much as it is just a back support for the back end of my top keyboard (Nord Stage 2-76). The front end of the Nord sits on a Numa Organ.

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Where did you get the stand? Every place I look online has them as out of stock, or a 6-week back order.


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Waited about three months from mine - ordered it on line from B&H about a year and a half ago

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I bought from musicstandsalone - the web site does not show it out of stock. Even though they didn't list the second tier, an email to them resulted in my buying the tier also.


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Originally Posted By: New&Improv
Where did you get the stand? Every place I look online has them as out of stock, or a 6-week back order.
I bought mine from B&H. Took about 10 weeks from when I ordered it to it being delivered.

Originally Posted By: learjeff
All that's needed to bring the two tiers closer together is a drill press and the skill to use it (or a friend who has those). I'm considering that, but I find the current minimum distance is working well enough.
I did this on mine. I also had to trim the tubing because I have mine set up for seated playing, and the lower legs interfered with the 2nd tier (wouldn't let it sit low enough)

Originally Posted By: learjeff
I'm tempted to shorten the tier arms so the top board sits farther back, but I won't do that for quite a while if at all.
I'm planning on doing this with mine, as I found that I tend to place my upper board (Electro 4D) further back so I can see the interface of my lower board better (NP2 or Electro 3 73). And since I have modified the 2nd tier to be lower, the arms get in the way a bit as they extend over the lower board's keys somewhat.

Originally Posted By: learjeff
The only instability is that there's a bit of lateral swing. Back when I was playing organ on a weighted board, palm smears would have been a nuisance, but with the Electro it's not a problem. (At first I did have to catch the Nord a couple times as it flew off the stand to the right during a too emphatic smear!) I noted the lateral bounce after setting it up, but didn't notice it during playing. That's without the cross-brace. Next gig I'll try it with the brace, just for comparison.
As a mechanical engineer, I would suggest using the cross brace. Without it, you'll probably have a tendency to over-tighten the accordion brace (to make the stand set up stiff enough), which may lead to premature failure of your fasteners (specifically the plastic thumbscrews with metal thread inserts.

Last edited by RichieP_MechE; 04/08/14 09:09 AM. Reason: forgot a word
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Originally Posted By: New&Improv
Where did you get the stand? Every place I look online has them as out of stock, or a 6-week back order.
Thomann

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I ordered mine from a place I found on the web -- don't remember how: "Music Stands Alone". I tried another place first, but they refunded me due to not having any in stock. Then I tried MSA, and they replied that they didn't have any in stock but could have it to me by Apr 15 (about 8 weeks) and they'd give me a 5% discount. I wasn't in any hurry, so I jumped on it.

In both cases I paid via paypal and credit card, so I didn't have to give out CC info, and risked at most $50 -- which is why I won't give PayPal my bank account info!

Originally Posted By: Dglavko
I made my own second tier with a hockey stick (painted black, and cut to ab out 12 inches each) - as these fit perfectly in the tier slots. It's not quite a tier mind you as much as it is just a back support for the back end of my top keyboard (Nord Stage 2-76). The front end of the Nord sits on a Numa Organ.
Hah! The "hockey stick mod".

RichieP, thanks for your input. I suspect that if I drill holes to lower the top tier, I'll also want to cut the arms shorter, for just the reasons you mention. Not sure what you meant by "trim the tubing" though.

I do understand about the brace. As I said, I'll give it a shot next time.

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
RichieP, thanks for your input. I suspect that if I drill holes to lower the top tier, I'll also want to cut the arms shorter, for just the reasons you mention. Not sure what you meant by "trim the tubing" though.


Here's a crude graphic to explain what I mean. It's really only an issue if you want to play from a seated position.


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Every time someone starts a thread about this combo I look for one online. Never can find the 18881 in stock in the US.


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aha! I see now. Since I have mine set higher, that wouldn't be an issue for me. Thanks!

Rabid, you'll probably have to order it and wait 6 weeks like I did. But you can try Music Stands Alone -- maybe they ordered more than one when I got mine. If not, they'll give you a 5% discount!

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I did look at this stand, but thought that the K&M 18810 set may be a better buy. It is slightly more expensive (15 over here) and slightly heavier, but looks very solid. Also, there is no concertina to get damaged.

Still haven't made my mind up.


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I passed on that because it takes more steps to set up and tear down, and wouldn't fit as well in my minivan. It does have some nifty options for accessories, though.

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Hi,

Looking at different stands to replace my On Stage KS 7350 for live use. I will be using this as a single tier seated (Kronos 61) and was wondering how well this stand would withstand being tossed in a trailer without a padded bag. I have also thought about the Gator Frameworks Platform stand, but worry about stability in this type of stand.

Thanks,

Bill


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I have the 18880 and 18881 - well built aircraft grade aluminum, but I wouldn't want to toss it in a trailer without padding. I do put it on my card with a couple of bungee cords, and put the cart in the van.

As our Brit friends would say, "there's too many 'twiddly-bits'."

I'm assuming from the trailer that a good bit of equipment is hauled (maybe for the whole band?). The main supports would just have the paint scratched, but the accordion type section that opens it up, and the upper support bar to hold it open might be a problem.

I also have the 2-tier version of the OnStage Z stand and the OnStage case for it. Putting the stand in the case takes a bit of time, and the whole thing weighs a LOT more than the K&M.


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Would the K&M fit in the On'Stage case?


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At a minimum, you'd need a rubber band or something to hold it closed (and if you use the brace, one to hold the brace, which might not fit if you use a low height. That is, the brace can lay against the leg if the stand is high enough, but not if it's low. This is fixable by making the brace short enough, but that also makes the stand narrower: don't slam down on the low keys!)

Many of the knobs you could turn inward so they don't stick out, which makes the whole package thicker and bouncier when collapsed, but protects more of the fiddly bits.

For a typical band van (I well remember what those did to my Rhodes) I'd rather use a case like the Onstage stand case.

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BTW, I'm pretty sure the brace does very little. You'd need a diagonal brace (or pair of them) to take much strain off the scissors braces. With the stand set up, I can't feel any difference in lateral stability with or without the brace. If I had a fish scale or strain gauge I'd measure how much difference it makes in stability.

It doesn't really change the freedom of motion, since the feet, once planted on the floor with any weight on the stand, don't tend to move. Nobody kicks my stand from the side. Since the feet don't move, the brace makes very little difference in freedom of motion, which is entirely side-to-side wobble. The only thing that resists that is the scissors brace, and adding any number of horizontal braces makes zero difference in that regard.

If I'm missing something, please point it out, and give a geometric argument.

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I need a 3 tier system. I can't order the 18881 until 4/30. I can get 18882s now.

I'm thinking of getting the 18880 and 2 sets of 18882s. That should work fine shouldn't it?


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Originally Posted By: CEB
Would the K&M fit in the On'Stage case?
If MBK will post the dimensions of the OnStage case, I can see if it'd fit. Do this before long; soon the 18880 will be in my car and rarely come back in the house.

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Originally Posted By: CEB
I need a 3 tier system. I can't order the 18881 until 4/30. I can get 18882s now.

I'm thinking of getting the 18880 and 2 sets of 18882s. That should work fine shouldn't it?


yes


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Originally Posted By: learjeff
BTW, I'm pretty sure the brace does very little. You'd need a diagonal brace (or pair of them) to take much strain off the scissors braces. With the stand set up, I can't feel any difference in lateral stability with or without the brace. If I had a fish scale or strain gauge I'd measure how much difference it makes in stability.

It doesn't really change the freedom of motion, since the feet, once planted on the floor with any weight on the stand, don't tend to move. Nobody kicks my stand from the side. Since the feet don't move, the brace makes very little difference in freedom of motion, which is entirely side-to-side wobble. The only thing that resists that is the scissors brace, and adding any number of horizontal braces makes zero difference in that regard.

If I'm missing something, please point it out, and give a geometric argument.

Jeff, allow me to recant my earlier statement. I think you're right here. When I made that post, I hadn't used my 18880 for a couple months so I was going from memory. When I set it up at a big band rehearsal last week, it became apparent that the horizontal brace doesn't do much to increase the side-to-side rigidity of the stand.

My best guess for the function of the brace is that it serves as a method to ensure the stand is set up consistently. It forces the scissor braces to be about perpendicular to each other, which maybe puts them in an optimal position for stiffness (if I get bored someday maybe I'll do a finite element analysis on this smile )

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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: CEB
I need a 3 tier system. I can't order the 18881 until 4/30. I can get 18882s now.

I'm thinking of getting the 18880 and 2 sets of 18882s. That should work fine shouldn't it?


yes


Thanks, I just order a new 3 tier stand. Cost more than the On-Stage but this should be the last stand I ever buy.


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Originally Posted By: RichieP_MechE

My best guess for the function of the brace is that it serves as a method to ensure the stand is set up consistently. It forces the scissor braces to be about perpendicular to each other, which maybe puts them in an optimal position for stiffness (if I get bored someday maybe I'll do a finite element analysis on this smile )
Good point! I hadn't considered that bit. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that's the optimal distance, or at least that it's where the stability starts to drop significantly. It's obvious that the least stability would be fully extended.

Originally Posted By: CEB
Thanks, I just order a new 3 tier stand. Cost more than the On-Stage but this should be the last stand I ever buy.
That's what I'm hoping! Of course, I can see buying another x-stand or two, to leave at rehearsal locations.

But why two sets of 18882 rather than 18881 and 18882? Do you have a use for open slots on the top tier? (Might be handy for an ipad or laptop stand.)

BTW, an extra stand is handy to have around at home too, for unpacking guitars from cases, or working on stuff. I use mine "off-purpose" quite a bit. Just remember not to put a shelf on it much longer than it extends, or someone will set something heavy on the end.

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I can't get the 18881. Have not found a retailer that has them in stock Thomann will have them on 4/30. The US distributor don't have any either.

I bought this from Europe. The US distributor says 'I would have to contact my favorite retailer who will contact Connolly who will contact K&M then Connolly could have them in 12 weeks.

Yesterday 8th Street Music had eight 18880 in stock but no tiers at all.

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
It's obvious that the least stability would be fully extended.

Actually, the least stability is when it's not extended at all. ;-)


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Learjeff,

The On Stage z carrying bag has the following dimensions:
Internal Height 16"
Internal Length 30"
Internal Width 8.75"

Can you tell me if it will fit the 18880?

I also noticed that there is a Roland branded folding Z that only weighs. 17 lbs and looks like it sets up quickly . It is not expensive, but no one had them in stock. Roland ,ks18z


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The K&M would not fit in the OnStage case - they are shaped quite differently. (I don't think - didn't go out to measure it, but the K&M parts IIRC are longer than the OnStage case.


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Does anyone know why these products aren't shown on the K&M web site?


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I don't know. At first I thought they were being discontinued but I see they are on the /en/ website. But not the /us/ website.

http://produkte.k-m.de/en/Keyboard-stands/Keyboard-tables

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Originally Posted By: CEB
I don't know. At first I thought they were being discontinued but I see they are on the /en/ website. But not the /us/ website.

http://produkte.k-m.de/en/Keyboard-stands/Keyboard-tables


Ah...so probably more an indication of IT problems than discontinuation. Thanks for the link.


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My 3 tier K&M setup is on the way. I hope the boards ride OK ok on this.

My concern is the Middle tier being deep enough. K&M says it supports a width of 17.71" The XK3c is 16". I also want the boards close tgether but need access to the S90XS controls.

.... I worry too much.


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Originally Posted By: Electro Fan
Learjeff,

The On Stage z carrying bag has the following dimensions:
Internal Height 16"
Internal Length 30"
Internal Width 8.75"

Can you tell me if it will fit the 18880?
Darn, sorry I missed this earlier. Next time I have it inside I'll check.
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: learjeff
It's obvious that the least stability would be fully extended.

Actually, the least stability is when it's not extended at all. ;-)
Hah! True!

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LeerJwff,

Thanks for checking on this. I may run out of time and buy it or something else before my gig next week. I wonder if a large Canvas bag like they sell at the Army Navy store would be good protection for the 18880 in a trailer ?

Bill


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The feet are about 23 1/2" long.
Without the 2nd tier, it's about 26" high on lowest setting, which is how it comes shipped. When I tried that it felt lower than standard keyboard height; too low for me but I could manage it sitting in on someone else's gig. I set it fairly high so I can sit or stand and play either/both boards (sitting on a cheapie stool (not sure whether it's 18" or 24"). Anyway, where I have it set it's 32" high without the tier.

A heavy-duty canvas bag would help a lot, but it depends on how well you can trust bandmates tossing stuff in. If they're methodical and follow instructions and you make sure the stand is packed last (or in a fairly safe place, such as between two keyboards) it would probably be OK. The biggest risks would be:

o Having it wedge in at an angle and then someone slamming a Rhodes in, bending it (wrecking it completely).

o Sliding something heavy in beside it but that something clips a knob on its way. To minimize the risk for this, I'd just put it together so all the knobs face inwards. It'd be 3 or 4 inches thicker but who cares? You can see below I have all the knobs facing outwards, since I load my own minivan and I want it thin. The knobs on the legs are how they are, but the ones on the sides can face either way (in or out).

I took some pics. You can also see where I put electrical tape to avoid clanging and scraping. I forgot to take pics of where I put tape around the ends of tubes that go into other tubes to avoid them clanging, but you should be able to guess that.



Here it is folded. It doesn't quite look like the picture we find when googling; the tiers were redesigned to allow variable angles, and due to that it won't collapse as low (but still as thin). In any case I don't loosen it to fold for travel. It could go lower but no need to fiddle with parts since it fits in my van.



I drilled two more holes in the tier so I could set the top tier 2 or 4 cm lower than the lowest factory holes allow. It's currently set up on the first of these, and you can see the other hole for lowest setting in some of the pics.




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Cool stand. What I might do is use velcro straps (the kind used for cables)to strap it rather than tape, use a quilted moving blanket to wrap it, then try always to set it on top as the last thing in the van.

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What I use is a couple of short bungee cords to keep it closed at minimum width, then a couple of longer bungee cords to tie it to the ATA case for the keyboard (which is tied with bungee cords to the RockNRoller extended cart). Then I put a JBL 12" speaker bag on top with all the cords, pedals, and other small stuff. Pick up one end, put in van, pick up other end, slide all the way in van. No outer cover for the 18880-18881, but I move all my stuff myself in my own transport.


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Cool -- I didn't realize until recently that it's feasible to get a B3 with Roll-R-Carry in and out of a van without help, but a local (great) player who looks like he weighs about 130 lbs does it, so it must be doable! If I'd known that way back when, maybe I'd have got over my resistance and gotten a Hammond. Today, I'm delighted to have convenient clones, though I do love a chance to play the real thing whenever it happens!

I don't use tape to hold it together. I only use electrical tape on it to keep surfaces from clanking against each other. Two cases: one is at the end of tubes that go inside other tubes. Without the tape, they rattle, which isn't an issue except that it bugs me. The other is where bolt head bump against each other when it's folded up.

I don't need any ties to keep it folded up. It stays that way just fine by itself, but it't not disturbed much where it sits in my van, and the stuff around it would keep it from spreading out anyway.

I haven't yet applied WD40 to where the parts slide as it opens and closes, but I think I'll do that today before I head out to play a blues jam. That's the tightest stage I play, and I'll try to remember to take pics.

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Full Compass does have the 18880 in stock occasionally. I got both of mine from FC when they were in stock ( the most recent was May 2...two days ago, but I must have got the only one because they are out again). I contacted FC at the beginning of April and the sales rep said they would be in at the end of April, so I kept checking the website and snagged one while it was in stock.
A friend of mine is a K&M rep and says it is tough to get retailers to stock the stands due to the price, especially when placed next to the much cheaper (less expensive) Onstage stands. But I love the 18880 for it's light weight, solid feel, and compact footprint.
The only negative of the stand for me is that it is not too convenient if you need to change the stand height often, which is why I wanted a second one. I originally got the stand to hold my Crumar Mojo, but if I want to use it for my FP-50 or MoXF8, I need to lower it from where it is set for the Mojo, which requires the provided wrench and some disassembly. But for the combination of ease of transport and support, the 18880 is worth the money to hold your expensive keyboards.

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I'm hoping mine is here this week.


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My solution to the second tier issue is a $5 one instead of the k&m option (which I have as well but don't use). Cut two pieces of a hockey stick in 8" sections and insert them into the back end where the k&m tier sits. Bought two hard plastic grey irrigation elbows from home depot and and slip over hockey stick ends. Insert matching 2" plastic electrical pipe (found this in my garage left over) into the elbows cut to fit. Spray paint black.

Numa organ sits on the bottom level. Nord stage 2-76 sits on top with front feet on the numa, back feet on the elbows/pipe.

Folds down like a dream. 5 seconds to set up.

And most important to me - it keeps the two keyboards very close.

None of that 5" between keyboards bs.

Will post pics if I can figure out how.

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Originally Posted By: Dglavko
Will post pics if I can figure out how.

Compared to your ingenious 2nd-tier solution, figuring out how to post pics should be a piece of cake. ;-) Looking forward to seeing the pix...


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Go figure - my photo posting abilities are lacking - (can't figure out how to delete my old old mojo-moog pics so pease ignore them And the resolution of this new stand pics is not so great - how do y'all do this?) but hopefully you get the idea.

Looking at the photos underneath, I think I will slide the numa forward some as the Nord fulcrum looks rather precarious though it feels quite solid.

Also in my plan is to velcro the "height blocks" to the k&m once i find the ideal height. Currently it is still a bit short for standing.

Although I have been trying to move to one keyboard rig, I must confess that two is way more fun. So I am gravitating towards standing rather than sitting as that means one less piece of gear (ie the bench : and the numa and stool weigh the same!!) i also schlep a saxophone or two most gigs.

Suggestions welcome.

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Brilliant!

Why do you need the "height blocks"? I simply adjust the 18881 for the proper height, on the legs at the bottom.

As mentioned above, it's a nuisance that you need a wrench to do it, so this stand isn't ideal for someone who wants one stand for multiple purposes with different heights for different gigs. I suspect that could be fixed by replacing the four bolts with 1/4" clevis pins, though. It wouldn't be as rigid, but would be fine with weight on it.

I like the fact that the 18881 folds up to one piece for carrying. But I'm sure someone could easily create a top tier that works pretty much the same way as the 18881's, and for a lot less than $90! The extra weight of a wood solution wouldn't be an issue, since the stand is so light.

I'm finding the holes I drilled to get the top tier 2 mc lower is working great. Next time I'll try the other set I drilled, but I think I prefer a bit of a gap to be able to peer in and see the display on my bottom tier when I need to (without moving the top keyboard, which I've done and isn't too bad since I don't often need to see the display.)

I meant to take pics but realized on the way to the show that I'd left my phone at home. Oops.

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I have the 18880 and I'm thinking of spraying it with a clear plastic protective coating to reduce paintwork damage. I know you can get it for car alloys. It would be a cheaper option and less cumbersome than another case to carry the stand in.


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In my mind the biggest benefit of the case is to help prevent the loss of any bolts, screws or other hardware bits that could be shed off during transport...... BUT I don't know the stand yet. This may not be an issue.


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The knobs that allow the stand to come together only need to he slackened slightly to allow both sides to come together. The other two knobs that hold the brace and second tier together also just slacken, take off the brace and then retighten. Nothing needs to be taken off completely.


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Originally Posted By: b3boy
The knobs that allow the stand to come together only need to he slackened slightly to allow both sides to come together. The other two knobs that hold the brace and second tier together also just slacken, take off the brace and then retighten. Nothing needs to be taken off completely.


thu

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I can't take it anymore! Ordered one, this morning!

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
Brilliant!

Why do you need the "height blocks"? I simply adjust the 18881 for the proper height, on the legs at the bottom.

As mentioned above, it's a nuisance that you need a wrench to do it, so this stand isn't ideal for someone who wants one stand for multiple purposes with different heights for different gigs. I suspect that could be fixed by replacing the four bolts with 1/4" clevis pins, though. It wouldn't be as rigid, but would be fine with weight on it.

I like the fact that the 18881 folds up to one piece for carrying. But I'm sure someone could easily create a top tier that works pretty much the same way as the 18881's, and for a lot less than $90! The extra weight of a wood solution wouldn't be an issue, since the stand is so light.

I'm finding the holes I drilled to get the top tier 2 mc lower is working great. Next time I'll try the other set I drilled, but I think I prefer a bit of a gap to be able to peer in and see the display on my bottom tier when I need to (without moving the top keyboard, which I've done and isn't too bad since I don't often need to see the display.)

I meant to take pics but realized on the way to the show that I'd left my phone at home. Oops.

Wow I completely missed that there was a height adjustment until now! Thanks a million for pointing that out!

Now if only I can figure out how to post images correctly...

You're also right about needing a "peer in gap" being appropriate for keyboards with knobs on the lower half. I just prefer to have my menu ridden Nord on top where I can see all the controls, and the knob sparse Numa on the bottom, so I can have the keyboards nice and close.

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Yup, that's ideal. That's one of the good things about the Korg SV-1, with the forward-facing control strip. But too bad they made the top curved instead of flat. I use the flat surfaces on my keyboards!

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Another smart thing they did was make the power on toggle switch toggle down to power it. Sounds simple but I have a couple of amplifiers that have toggle switches. They both toggle up to power on. Meaning anything falls off the amp, the cord or your hand touches it and the power goes off!


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Yup, I've had mine for quite a while and still digging it! For some nostalgia and added edification, I present you with the link (with pix) of my thread here about it:

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Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
I have the 18880 and 18881 - well built aircraft grade aluminum, but I wouldn't want to toss it in a trailer without padding. I do put it on my card with a couple of bungee cords, and put the cart in the van.

As our Brit friends would say, "there's too many 'twiddly-bits'."

I'm assuming from the trailer that a good bit of equipment is hauled (maybe for the whole band?). The main supports would just have the paint scratched, but the accordion type section that opens it up, and the upper support bar to hold it open might be a problem.

I also have the 2-tier version of the OnStage Z stand and the OnStage case for it. Putting the stand in the case takes a bit of time, and the whole thing weighs a LOT more than the K&M.


Yeah, I seem to feel there are two types of gear:
The car-transport, make it light and small
The van/roadie haul, make it indestructible regardless of how heavy or bulky.

Gig bags, soft cases, and this stand are in the first category. It's the only way I travel ... even if we put all our gear in one SUV, we the musicians are handling it so we are careful and nothing gets broken. But if I was touring and had a road crew, man, everything in flight cases!


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I forgot about that crossbrace. That's because I never use it!

Before I ditched the crossbar altogther, I had my husband file out one of the holes so that it is a notch instead. This cut even more time out of the setup time required because I only had to swing the crossbar around and slip it onto the one side where it wasn't attached -- no completely unscrewing that one screw! grin I know, lazy, lazy, lazy. So lazy that now I don't use the crossbar at all. I've had no problems with that MO. I would say it's important to make sure you've got those 4 stabilizing screws nice and secure to avoid wobble ... easy enough to do, and I never get the wobbles.

As far as "accordion maintenance," doesn't hurt to once in a while go thru your accordion fence nuts and bolts and make sure they are not too loose. You obviously need some play there because the joints all have to move, but too loose and it can start to rattle, and you may get warpage like what happened to Aidan's stand. But I have has this for, what, 2 years, not a ton of gigging but it gets a lot of use, and it's been great!

Also, when gigging two-tier, I can get my boards nice and close; I just put the upper tiers in the slots and let them stay there, free floating. I am short, so my stand is at the lowest or second-to-lowest height -- this means the 2d tier bars must be resting on those legs inside the tube. For those of you who raise the stand, this might not work to get the tiers closer; you might have to drill holes.

Last edited by Michelle (ggurl); 05/06/14 02:03 PM. Reason: stop making sense

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Originally Posted By: CEB
I'm hoping mine is here this week.


CEB, if you have problems getting the stacker maybe try Music Stands Alone? That's where I got mine.


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Hello. I got a 18880 stand recently. VERY pleased with it. For the top tier I got 18882 - stacker B. Not sure what the difference is between that and 18881, but the stacker B is great. Strongly recommend that anyone who wants another tier considers getting this instead of 18881..... :-)


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I think the difference is, you can add another tier to the 18882 and extend/shrink the depth.

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Originally Posted By: Michelle (ggurl)
Before I ditched the crossbar altogther, I had my husband file out one of the holes so that it is a notch instead. This cut even more time out of the setup time required because I only had to swing the crossbar around and slip it onto the one side where it wasn't attached -- no completely unscrewing that one screw! grin I know, lazy, lazy, lazy.

Actually, the latest edition has one side of the crossbar notched. K&M might owe you some royalties! grin

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Oh wait, yeah, It started out with one notch. Now I remember: because I have the stand set to shortest position, I had him notch out the OTHER side so that I can remove the entire bar for transport. It's been so long since I've used the bar that I forgot about that. grin


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I have a question.

Looks like there is plenty room for pedals, but how about sitting and your legs hitting the accordion braces versus the amount of length of the main rail for the overhang of the bottom board.

I would be playing a MOXF8 or Artis on the bottom and occasionally my stage 2 or MOXF6 on the 18881.
I am wondering because it looks like there is not a lot of horizontal room between "overhang" and the accordion braces.


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I usually use a PC3 lower, sometimes PC361 upper on the K&M stand, run an expression pedal on at least one, and at least one switch pedal on each board. I play seated, and don't have any problem with my legs (note that I frequently have the expression pedal just outside the left hand side of the stand. I'm 5' 11", and have the stand set so the lower board is about the same height as my acoustic grand's keyboard.


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I just ordered an 18880 and 18881 from Music Stands Alone.

They had some in stock and I believe he has one 18880 left.

Real nice service and pleasant buying experience


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Michelle, I want to thank you and a few others here for pointing these stands out. I really dig mine.

Originally Posted By: HAM&EGZ
Looks like there is plenty room for pedals, but how about sitting and your legs hitting the accordion braces versus the amount of length of the main rail for the overhang of the bottom board.
When I play an acoustic piano, my knees are either not under or are just barely under the piano keyboard. That is, I don't sit with the bench in tight to the piano. I've always played other keyboards pretty much the same way.

I can't imagine having my stool so close to the keyboard that my knees would get anywhere near the braces. My pedals are in front of them, for the most part.

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You're welcome, Jeff! smile I'm usually such a noncontributor when it comes to gear bc mine is generally ancient, so I was excited to share my find with others when I discovered this stand.


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Last year, I bought the K & M 18810 for my studio. Love it - very sturdy. Suits my needs.

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Originally Posted By: SteveCoscia
Last year, I bought the K & M 18810 for my studio. Love it - very sturdy. Suits my needs.
For studio use, I'd think a Z stand would be at least as good and less expensive, and there's no need for the light weight. But if it works, it works!

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Originally Posted By: RichieP_MechE
Originally Posted By: learjeff
I'm tempted to shorten the tier arms so the top board sits farther back, but I won't do that for quite a while if at all.
I'm planning on doing this with mine, as I found that I tend to place my upper board (Electro 4D) further back so I can see the interface of my lower board better (NP2 or Electro 3 73). And since I have modified the 2nd tier to be lower, the arms get in the way a bit as they extend over the lower board's keys somewhat

Finally had a chance to make this modification; here's some crappy cell phone camera photos of the process.


Before


Trimming off 2 inches in the horzontal bandsaw


Comparison: Untrimmed vs. trimmed


After

Last edited by RichieP_MechE; 05/12/14 10:03 PM.
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The joy of having a nice shop! Looks great!

Someday I may do that to mine, but I just pull the bottom keyboard forward enough to match with the top. With a much shallower board on bottom like the Nord, I might want to trim it. I don't need the pins (but I left them in).

Blues jam tonight; pics if I remember my damn phone and it doesn't die (it doesn't last long on battery, ever since I dropped it in the water.)

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
Originally Posted By: SteveCoscia
Last year, I bought the K & M 18810 for my studio. Love it - very sturdy. Suits my needs.
For studio use, I'd think a Z stand would be at least as good and less expensive, and there's no need for the light weight. But if it works, it works!
I meant to delete this post after I saw that you said 18810 and not 18880, but evidently it didn't work. So, insert the :doh: pic here.

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
The joy of having a nice shop! Looks great!

Someday I may do that to mine, but I just pull the bottom keyboard forward enough to match with the top. With a much shallower board on bottom like the Nord, I might want to trim it. I don't need the pins (but I left them in).

Blues jam tonight; pics if I remember my damn phone and it doesn't die (it doesn't last long on battery, ever since I dropped it in the water.)


Tell me that you didn't drop it in the loo, LearJeff!

BTW, where is the blues jam tonight?

ITGITC? cool


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On mine, I flipped the top tier around so the arms face rearward.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
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I just received mine with the stacker arms.
I cannot believe how light weight it is, what a dream.

Mine came with the pads already attached to the arms and a longer set of bolts.

I notice the instructions indicate to open the frame all the way, but then the cross brace wont attach unless I fold it back in somewhat. I notice some comments about disregarding the crossbrace.


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Thomann just "opened an investigation" to see why I don't have mine. I wanted to buy domestic but I could not get the 18882s which you need for 3 tiers.

Last edited by CEB; 05/13/14 01:39 PM.

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Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
Originally Posted By: learjeff
The joy of having a nice shop! Looks great!

Someday I may do that to mine, but I just pull the bottom keyboard forward enough to match with the top. With a much shallower board on bottom like the Nord, I might want to trim it. I don't need the pins (but I left them in).

Blues jam tonight; pics if I remember my damn phone and it doesn't die (it doesn't last long on battery, ever since I dropped it in the water.)


Tell me that you didn't drop it in the loo, LearJeff!

BTW, where is the blues jam tonight?

ITGITC? cool

Nope, in the back-yard water feature! The jam's at the Blue Note Grill, where anyone who is anyone will be tonight! There will be at least one killer keyboard player (Clark Stern). Usually, it's just Clark and me to share the keyboard duties.

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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
On mine, I flipped the top tier around so the arms face rearward.
Yeah, well, don't blame us because it's not OUR fault that you're smarter than the average bear!

Originally Posted By: HAM&EGZ
I notice the instructions indicate to open the frame all the way, but then the cross brace wont attach unless I fold it back in somewhat. I notice some comments about disregarding the crossbrace.
I think they mean "all the way to where the crossbrace works" or something like that.

The crossbrace isn't very useful but I think it is a reasonable guide to how far to open it. That said, there's a wide range where it's stable. I ditched the brace, and don't fuss about just how wide I open it.

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Originally Posted By: learjeff
The joy of having a nice shop!

Yes! This is at my place of employment, which has pretty much every tool I could possibly need. Makes jobs like this super easy. cool

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These Germans are starting to piss me off.


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Well DHL tracking could use some added robustness. My package has shown it in Germany since April 22. The Last update was 4/30 and it was still in Germany. I was not happy and started contacting people. I really need this stand tomorrow. I just got an email and it is out for delivery today. Tracking still doesn't show what city it is in.

Quote:
Tue, 22.04.2014 16:52 h -- The instruction data for this shipment have been provided by the sender to DHL electronically

Tue, 22.04.2014 17:35 h Kitzingen, Germany The international shipment has been processed in the parcel center of origin

Wed, 23.04.2014 01:38 h Saulheim, Germany The international shipment has been processed in the export parcel center

Wed, 30.04.2014 09:49 h IPZ-Ffm, Germany The shipment will be transported to the destination country and, from there, handed over to the delivery organization. (Homepage / online shipment tracking: )

Wed, 14.05.2014 07:36 h United States The shipment is being prepared for delivery in the delivery depot

Last edited by CEB; 05/14/14 02:22 PM.

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Good luck, I really hope you get it on time.

I have found DHL to be a nightmare, of all the parcel companies that have delivered to me over the last few years, they are the worst by far.

If I get an email saying that DHL are delivering to me on day "X", my partner and I place bets on the day it will actually arrive.

Loser buys the pizzas!


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If I have to I can probably go L shape on the first show. It is on a large outdoor stage on Saturday and we are the only band. But we are a 10 piece band. We take a lot of space.


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Originally Posted By: CEB
These Germans are starting to piss me off.


...as long as you don't piss off the Germans grin grin grin


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I got the stand. If the lightweight aluminum tubing holds up I going to really like this. I am using it tonight.

My one concern, and this is huge, is the XK3c is not too deep for the 18882.

Last edited by CEB; 05/15/14 02:03 PM.

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OK, got some poor pics:






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It is really stable. I can add more stackers if I want but I would eventually need a ladder.



Last edited by CEB; 05/16/14 01:29 PM.

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I used mine in a standing position for the first time last night. Definitely had it set too low as my right wrist was all tensed up even though I only had to play two songs. Lesson learned.


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Originally Posted By: learjeff
OK, got some poor pics:







So you keep your pedals in line with a wire under them
? How?

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Been using the 18880 for two years now with the NP2. Perfect combination- lightweight/portable, functional and good looking cosmetically.

I tried the CP4 on it, but because of the small lip underneath the Yamaha , similar to but not as pronounced as on the CP300, the CP4 sits about an inch too high at 24.80 " for the 18880. mad

I pulled my Quik-Lok WS-550 out of the attic and it's the right height for the CP4. But I'm spoiled by the sleek look, plus the small footprint of the K&M stand. The 550 looks kinda butt ugly to me right now.

The K&M Omega specs out at 23.62 . There's my inch. While the Omega is probably my favorite keyboard stand I've seen, it's more involved to set up & tear down then either the 18880 or WS-550.

Why the lip underneath Yamaha ? The CP5 didn't have one..

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 05/20/14 01:50 AM. Reason: added thought
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


I pulled my Quik-Lok WS-550 out of the attic and it's the right height for the CP4. But I'm spoiled by the sleek look of the K&M stand. The 550 looks kinda butt ugly to me right now.


have a couple of beers, Dave, and the 550 will start to look pretty good, especially being the right height smile


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Originally Posted By: Dglavko

So you keep your pedals in line with a wire under them
? How?







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