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#2577887 - 03/05/14 10:51 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Fred_C]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Loc: Washington DC
I was going to say that I'd miss the convenience of being able to pick up strings, cables, picks, etc. when I need them, but now that I think about it, I've been ordering more and more stuff online from places like JRRShop, Sweetwater, and Hello Music I did buy my Microbrute through a buddy who works at GC so he'd get the commission in exchange for the discount he got me but I generally try to support Chuck Levin's for the bigger purchases. Does Chuck Levin's carry Mellotron M4000Ds? wink

I just watched the "I Dream Of Wires" documentary and was struck by the steady proliferation of stores either specializing in modulars or adding modular gear to their inventory. The Make Noise website for example lists 9 US dealers - Analogue Haven is the only one on that list I recognize from 10 years ago.


Edited by GovernorSilver (03/05/14 10:51 AM)
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#2577888 - 03/05/14 10:52 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Musicale]
CaptainUnderpant Offline
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Registered: 06/15/12
Posts: 649
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Musicale
I don't think that there is much emphasis on folks taking up music (playing an instrument) anymore. I talk with my piano tuner and he says nobody's buying pianos, therefore nobody has a need for tuning and he's having a hard time making a living. Seems kid's nowadays have other interests. Same trend with stereo systems. The time's they are a changin'.


This...........

Our culture is impatient and lacks dedication. My two hobbies, Tennis and Piano, share much in common. They are life time pursuits that take years of dedicated practice to master. There used to be a cultural emphasis on being able to master these skills. When I grew up I remember court time was very difficult to get. There used to be a waiting list at most courts. There also used to be a piano or organ in many homes. Now courts remain vacant and homes with pianos are an exception.

An industry is not made up of the dedicated few (i.e. This Forum). But it is made up of all the wantabees. And wantabees are created by a culture that values and celebrates the dedicated few. Being the best tennis player in town, looses its luster if there are no other participants. And being a great pianist is of less value when there are so many other sources of entertainment, where a crowd might say, can you stop playing that piano, so we can watch the 70" TV.

I have actually always been quite amazed that a place like Guitar Center can exist in this new A.D.D. world. It is not surprising that it exists on the cultural bias of "I am the next Guitar Hero", vs. the next dedicated Pianist. Maybe it is the "Guitar Hero" mindset that has allowed them to last beyond their years? But even if you don't like Guitar Center, their loss is not a good thing. Less competition, means less choice and higher prices.


Edited by CaptainUnderpant (03/05/14 12:42 PM)
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#2577919 - 03/05/14 11:32 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Musicale]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Musicale
I don't think that there is much emphasis on folks taking up music (playing an instrument) anymore. I talk with my piano tuner and he says nobody's buying pianos, therefore nobody has a need for tuning and he's having a hard time making a living. Seems kid's nowadays have other interests. Same trend with stereo systems. The time's they are a changin'.


I don't know that that's necessarily true. If you look at acoustic pianos sales, yes they are WAY down but digital home pianos have held up quite well (so piano tuning might be a challenging business). Also, a few years back I looked at buying a small music store out where I live in suburbia. I looked at the business plan and income was largely derived from lessons, not just piano and guitar but violin, trumpet, flute etc. All these kids taking band and orchestra in middle/high school all adds up. The lessons would pay rent and keep the lights on. Selling instruments was really gravy on top.

Busch.

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#2577921 - 03/05/14 11:32 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: 16251]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: 16251
Music will become the next Electrolux/Fuller Brush type companies. they'll come to your house with the latest equipment.


And demonstrate their wares on the picnic table. laugh

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#2577922 - 03/05/14 11:34 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
16251 Offline
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Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 2638
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Originally Posted By: Musicale
I don't think that there is much emphasis on folks taking up music (playing an instrument) anymore. I talk with my piano tuner and he says nobody's buying pianos, therefore nobody has a need for tuning and he's having a hard time making a living. Seems kid's nowadays have other interests. Same trend with stereo systems. The time's they are a changin'.


I don't know that that's necessarily true. If you look at acoustic pianos sales, yes they are WAY down but digital home pianos have held up quite well (so piano tuning might be a challenging business). Also, a few years back I looked at buying a small music store out where I live in suburbia. I looked at the business plan and income was largely derived from lessons, not just piano and guitar but violin, trumpet, flute etc. All these kids taking band and orchestra in middle/high school all adds up. The lessons would pay rent and keep the lights on. Selling instruments was really gravy on top.

Busch.
Hey, sell one Stradivarius and make enough for whole year.
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#2577924 - 03/05/14 11:36 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
Synthoid Offline
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
a few years back I looked at buying a small music store out where I live in suburbia. I looked at the business plan and income was largely derived from lessons, not just piano and guitar but violin, trumpet, flute etc. All these kids taking band and orchestra in middle/high school all adds up. The lessons would pay rent and keep the lights on. Selling instruments was really gravy on top.


That's how the local mom and pop store stays in business. They don't move much gear at all... and their selection of keyboards (eesh) is made up of low-end digital pianos and PSR-type stuff.
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#2577934 - 03/05/14 11:58 AM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: 16251]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
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Originally Posted By: 16251
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Originally Posted By: Musicale
I don't think that there is much emphasis on folks taking up music (playing an instrument) anymore. I talk with my piano tuner and he says nobody's buying pianos, therefore nobody has a need for tuning and he's having a hard time making a living. Seems kid's nowadays have other interests. Same trend with stereo systems. The time's they are a changin'.


I don't know that that's necessarily true. If you look at acoustic pianos sales, yes they are WAY down but digital home pianos have held up quite well (so piano tuning might be a challenging business). Also, a few years back I looked at buying a small music store out where I live in suburbia. I looked at the business plan and income was largely derived from lessons, not just piano and guitar but violin, trumpet, flute etc. All these kids taking band and orchestra in middle/high school all adds up. The lessons would pay rent and keep the lights on. Selling instruments was really gravy on top.

Busch.
Hey, sell one Stradivarius and make enough for whole year.


I don't doubt that in the 90210 zip code kids aren't playing ridiculously expensive instruments in their bands/orchestras.

Busch.

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#2577938 - 03/05/14 12:04 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: DanL]
simajanpa Offline
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Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 253
Loc: Rhode Island
Originally Posted By: DanL
Originally Posted By: johnchop
Originally Posted By: Jim Eshleman

Atlanta GC's suck.


From a keyboard player's perspective, yeah, that was my experience. BTW they just opened a store in Athens. Haven't checked it out yet, but I'll probably head that way in a few weeks. My hopes for an awesome keyboard department aren't high. Keyboard stock around here (Augusta area) tends towards "safe"--the lower-cost workstations and digital pianos. The local economy and music scene don't warrant carrying higher-end inventory.

So, I'd miss GC as a relatively close shopping option for all the synth-geek stuff.

-John


I'd never been in a GC until a couple weeks ago. 2 years ago my nephew gave me a gift card for Christmas. The GC is an hour away and I just never made it up there. I needed some midi cables so it was a good reason to ride up there. I was totally unimpressed with the keyboard dept. It was like you say- low/mid range workstations like the older MOX, though they did have a Kronos 61. A bunch of digital pianos but nothing high end. They had a lot of casio stuff but no PX5S which I would have loved to bang on for a while to see what the hype is about. A lot of entry level synths, the Korg mini key stuff mostly. There were maybe 25 boards total and maybe 2-3 pro level in that whole inventory.


Ditto that in the Rhode Island store. The few in Mass. aren't much better, even the Boston store.
I'll stick with the Chuck's of the world.
I realize it says "Guitar Center" and not "Keyboard Center" on the door, but at least try and remotely cater to a pro musician.

Paul


Edited by simajanpa (03/05/14 12:31 PM)
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#2577940 - 03/05/14 12:06 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
burningbusch Offline
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I've never understood GC's need for so many stores. Here in Seattle there are five. They could get by with one. We have one Fry's Electronics store in the metro that's centrally located. If I need a computer part today and can't wait for NewEgg I go to Fry's because they have excellent selection. GC could do the same thing. I would rather have one location with a great selection, more depth than a poorly inventoried store a little closer. Pro gear is a specialty item and people will seek it out.

Maybe that's the game plan moving forward.

Busch.

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#2577950 - 03/05/14 12:20 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I've never understood GC's need for so many stores. Here in Seattle there are five.


We only have one GC in Lancaster, PA and it took ages for them to get here. The other (nearest) GC store is in northern Delaware.

In addition to GC, I guess most of us have read the news about Radio Shack closing 1100 stores nation wide.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/radioshack-close-1100-us-stores-22763714
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#2577953 - 03/05/14 12:29 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
Bill H. Offline
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 4026
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There's three in Portland Oregon, and we could get by with one also - although I'd hope the one that would stay open would be the Clackamas location laugh

I dunno... in the past I've been a horrible Guitar Center "user" - just trying stuff out there and then buying online. The last couple of years I've tried to change that, and mostly it's worked because they have been really trying to match online prices recently. I've made a couple of pretty big purchases there since - missing only the PX-5s because they couldn't get one at the time.

I'd really miss them if they closed. The last time I went to Clackamas I got to check out the CP4 and evaluate the filter on a Sub Phatty. I wanted to know if it's filter was more like a Voyager or Taurus (answer: Voyager).

You just can't do that anywhere else around here.

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#2577954 - 03/05/14 12:29 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Synthoid]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
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Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I've never understood GC's need for so many stores. Here in Seattle there are five.


We only have one GC in Lancaster, PA and it took ages for them to get here. The other (nearest) GC store is in northern Delaware.




GC claims 250 stores nationwide. If they can get by with one in a metro like Seattle (3.5 million) they can get by with far less stores than what they currently have.

Busch.

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#2577955 - 03/05/14 12:36 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Bill H.]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.

I'd really miss them if they closed. The last time I went to Clackamas I got to check out the CP4 and evaluate the filter on a Sub Phatty. I wanted to know if it's filter was more like a Voyager or Taurus (answer: Voyager).

You just can't do that anywhere else around here.



Control Voltage doesn't have those?

Busch.

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#2577956 - 03/05/14 12:42 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: mate stubb]
Michael W Offline
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Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 641
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: mate_stubb
I can't remember the last time my local GC had any keyboards I was interested in trying.


I tried a Yamaha CP33 at the local Guitar Center and bought it from them. Ditto for my MOX6. Ditto for my TI Polar. I also tried the Jupiter-50 there, but bought mine online since GC wouldn't match the price.

I've tried lots of instruments at GC and decided NOT to buy them, such as the Gaia, Ultranova, and the Arturia Analog Factory stuff.

I have also tried instruments at GC that I'd like to buy, but cannot afford, such as the Motif XF and Jupiter-80.

I have also bought software from them in the past, such as Omnisphere and MachFive, but much of that is becoming downloadable.

If GC disappeared and was replaced by a local store with local owners, that would be great. But with no guarantee of that, I don't mind GC being around.
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#2577957 - 03/05/14 12:49 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Michael W]
Michael W Offline
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Registered: 04/03/08
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Loc: Chicago, IL
I believe there are 7-8 GC stores here in the Chicago area. The closest one to me is about a 15-minute drive, but that can easily turn into 30 minutes with bad traffic. And we have bad traffic a lot around here.

That said, it is easy for me to swing by the place periodically just for fun, to see what they have. If that store closes, and I have to drive further, I'll really have to have a reason to go there, and choose my travel time carefully.

There are always plenty of people in the GC stores around here. But a lot of them are probably looking around and then buying online (although GC has a sign on their door now that says "We Match Internet Prices").
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#2577959 - 03/05/14 12:52 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
CaptainUnderpant Offline
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Registered: 06/15/12
Posts: 649
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I don't know that that's necessarily true. If you look at acoustic pianos sales, yes they are WAY down but digital home pianos have held up quite well (so piano tuning might be a challenging business). Also, a few years back I looked at buying a small music store out where I live in suburbia. I looked at the business plan and income was largely derived from lessons, not just piano and guitar but violin, trumpet, flute etc. All these kids taking band and orchestra in middle/high school all adds up. The lessons would pay rent and keep the lights on. Selling instruments was really gravy on top.

Busch.


I am certain you are correct. Digital piano sales will cut into a piano tuners work load. However underneath the numbers is a different level of commitment. I wonder how many digital piano's are purchased with the thought, "I wonder what Billy would like for Christmas, how about this $199 keyboard". Certainly there is not the same level of commitment to learning, between a $5,000 piano purchase and a $199 digital piano impulse buy.

With regards to opening a small music school. This might be a good idea. I am not in the public school system. But I can only imagine that the amount of emphasis on music is way down from when I was in public schools. There is probably a good opportunity for the private sector to pick up the slack from public schools. This doesn't change the fact that overall investment in musical education is probably less overall, just more opportunity for the public sector.
(Disclaimer: everything I have stated is just conjecture, empirical studies may prove me wrong)


Edited by CaptainUnderpant (03/05/14 12:53 PM)
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#2577963 - 03/05/14 12:56 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: CaptainUnderpant]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
Wow. Kind of shocked. I agree with the posts on here - even the ones that disagree with each other.

Very strange that Bain Capital is connected to this.

So in the future we will all have to buy without trying first? I guess UPS will be busy with returns.

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#2577964 - 03/05/14 12:59 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Moon Zero Two]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Had to delete a few posts that were skewing political. I know this thread begs that sort of content...but please avoid going there so I don't have to nuke the whole thread.

Thanks! wave

dB
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#2577967 - 03/05/14 01:07 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: CaptainUnderpant]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
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Loc: Ghost Planet
Originally Posted By: CaptainUnderpant
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I don't know that that's necessarily true. If you look at acoustic pianos sales, yes they are WAY down but digital home pianos have held up quite well (so piano tuning might be a challenging business). Also, a few years back I looked at buying a small music store out where I live in suburbia. I looked at the business plan and income was largely derived from lessons, not just piano and guitar but violin, trumpet, flute etc. All these kids taking band and orchestra in middle/high school all adds up. The lessons would pay rent and keep the lights on. Selling instruments was really gravy on top.

Busch.


I am certain you are correct. Digital piano sales will cut into a piano tuners work load. However underneath the numbers is a different level of commitment. I wonder how many digital piano's are purchased with the thought, "I wonder what Billy would like for Christmas, how about this $199 keyboard". Certainly there is not the same level of commitment to learning, between a $5,000 piano purchase and a $199 digital piano impulse buy.


I'm pulling my info from NAMM data and they separate out inexpensive electronic keyboard $200-300 vs. digital stage pianos/organ vs. home digital pianos and like I said acoustic pianos are way down over the last 10 years but digital home pianos have done well. Digital stage pianos/organs are down similarly to acoustic pianos, though not as much.

Busch.

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#2577970 - 03/05/14 01:12 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Bill H.]
WillNeverPost Offline
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Registered: 06/06/13
Posts: 723
Originally Posted By: Bill H.
I dunno... in the past I've been a horrible Guitar Center "user" - just trying stuff out there and then buying online. The last couple of years I've tried to change that, and mostly it's worked because they have been really trying to match online prices recently.
The need for brick-and-mortar stores to match online prices is one of the reasons brick-and-mortar stores are tanking. And not just stores that sell MI products. Lots of people go to a store to try stuff out and then ultimately purchase online just to save a few bucks. When the stores selling MI are all gone or no longer selling MI where are people going to go to audition instruments? I would not want to buy a new keyboard, and certainly not a guitar or acoustic instrument, without playing and hearing it in person. For the record, I have bought all my MI's from not just brick-and-mortar but local stores. (It's not a big collection but still...)

PS. Buying used gear, especially vintage, is a different matter.


Edited by AlenK (03/05/14 02:01 PM)
Edit Reason: Added PS

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#2577975 - 03/05/14 01:37 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: WillNeverPost]
richforman Offline
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Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1150
Loc: Long Island, NY
I too am surprised that these places are even able to stay in business at all. I mean, putting aside the issue of instruments that, yes, it's important to be able to see and try out in person before purchase, so much of my time there in years past has been to buy things that aren't like that and that I would need quickly - cables, sustain pedals, that type of thing - that in more recent years there is just no reason at all to go there when you can buy the same item online, almost certainly cheaper, and with much less time out of your day to do it, and more selection to choose from too.
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#2577977 - 03/05/14 01:50 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: WillNeverPost]
Dana. Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9238
Loc: Brooklyn
For those who are interested in what NYC offers in the way of stores that sell keyboards...

I know of three GC locations in NYC: Manhattan (Union Square), Brooklyn (Fort Greene), and Queens (Long Island City). I haven't been to the one in Queens, but the Manhattan and Brooklyn stores are comparable.

Sam Ash has five locations in NYC: Manhattan (Hell's Kitchen), Brooklyn (Marine Park), Queens (Forest Hills), and Long Island (Carle Place and Huntington). I've only been to the Manhattan and Queens locations, but considering the size and selection of the keyboard department in the Manhattan store, there's no reason to go to any other store to try new gear, including Guitar Center.

There are also numerous independently owned stores: B&H, Rogue, Main Drag, ProAudioStar (though I don't think they have a showroom), Armen's, Analog Lab, there's a store in Brooklyn that sells modular stuff that I can't remember the name of, etc. etc.

And then there's Craigslist. (And let me tell you, patience can really pay off.)

If the GC stores here close, Sam Ash becomes the only store at which one can really test drive new gear.

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#2577980 - 03/05/14 02:15 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Dana.]
richforman Offline
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Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1150
Loc: Long Island, NY
I guess you meant to include Long Island since you did for Sam Ash (the one in Huntington is about two minutes from my house, pretty convenient), so there is also a GC out here in Commack (on my way home from work if I go that way, so also pretty convenient).
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#2577984 - 03/05/14 02:35 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: richforman]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: richforman
...so there is also a GC out here in Commack (on my way home from work if I go that way, so also pretty convenient).


Never knew that was in my home town(just Googled it). When did that GC open?

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#2577987 - 03/05/14 02:40 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: Moon Zero Two]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 13025
Originally Posted By: Moon Zero Two
Wow. Kind of shocked. I agree with the posts on here - even the ones that disagree with each other.

Very strange that Bain Capital is connected to this.

So in the future we will all have to buy without trying first? I guess UPS will be busy with returns.


I'm already there. I can drive 110 miles to St. Louis that generally don't have the boards I am interested in. I don't know anyplace with Dave Smith Instruments on the floor. There is a Guitar Center 70 miles in Peoria which has no keyboards or I can drive 280 miles or so to Gand or GC in Chicago. My online network of trusted friends are becoming critical. My Sweetwater rep now knows me by the sound of my voice. LOL!

I'm going to cross my finger and blind order this new Fantom. There isn't enough of us keyboardist out there. There is no reason why I, a 50 year old piano player should be getting calls to play keyboards in kick ass pop bands with people half his age. 20 years ago Young talented musician would laugh at this thought. The customer pipeline is running dry.


Edited by CEB (03/05/14 02:41 PM)
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#2577991 - 03/05/14 02:52 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: richforman]
Dana. Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9238
Loc: Brooklyn
Originally Posted By: richforman
I guess you meant to include Long Island since you did for Sam Ash (the one in Huntington is about two minutes from my house, pretty convenient), so there is also a GC out here in Commack (on my way home from work if I go that way, so also pretty convenient).

Thanks for catching. I didn't know there is a GC there.

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#2578002 - 03/05/14 03:31 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: burningbusch]
Jazzmammal Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1897
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
What you guys from different parts of the country are saying is my experience at my local GC as well. They have a fairly decent selection of boards in a dedicated room but most of the time that room is filled with teenagers running beatz and then turning all the fun knobs to try out all the neat screeches, whoops, bleeps and stuff. Sitting down at a $3,000 workstation to try out some pianos is a non starter. Then the kids get bored and leave but of course never shut of the running loops so I'll go around and turn them off until 30 seconds later another group of kids come in.

It's hardly worth it to walk in the door.

Bob

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#2578005 - 03/05/14 03:37 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: CaptainUnderpant]
duff beer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 426
Loc: Winnipeg
Originally Posted By: CaptainUnderpant
I am certain you are correct. Digital piano sales will cut into a piano tuners work load. However underneath the numbers is a different level of commitment. I wonder how many digital piano's are purchased with the thought, "I wonder what Billy would like for Christmas, how about this $199 keyboard". Certainly there is not the same level of commitment to learning, between a $5,000 piano purchase and a $199 digital piano impulse buy.

There may not be the same level of commitment, but a lot more Billy's that want to learn piano will have the opportunity to do so because maybe Billy's parents can't afford to drop real money on a real piano. My first guitar cost $200, and I know for a fact that had it been $2000 my parents could never have afforded to buy me one. Or, Billy and his parents live in an apartment with thin walls and he can't play a real piano without disturbing the neighbors. Or, maybe Billy wants something portable so he can be in a band with his friend who got a $200 Squier guitar from his Mom and Dad.

And then maybe some of those Billy's that started on a $200 keyboard will continue with lessons and grow up and become good players and then buy a real piano or a real keyboard.

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#2578026 - 03/05/14 05:18 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: duff beer]
RABid Offline
10k Club

Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12564
The Guitar Center closest to me needs to close. It has never been managed well, the keyboard department is a mess, and the only time I tried to buy a big ticket item the conversation went like this....

Me - "I'd like to see the gold Gibson Les Paul on the top row."
Worker - "That one is $1800.00." Looks at me as if waiting for me to pick a different guitar.
Me - "I know." He climbs up to get the guitar.
Worker - "This is a nice guitar. Probably the best guitar in the shop. My boss set it up yesterday. It plays really well. He is our guitar tech." He hands me the guitar and I try it.
Me - "It has a bad buzz."
Worker - "It should not buzz. The tech set it up yesterday. He knows what he is doing. He is a really good tech."
Me - "It still has a bad buzz." I hand it to him and another worker comes over. They both try it out.
Worker - "Wow. It does have a buzz. It should not do that. The tech set it up yesterday." He looks it over and then looks at me.
Worker - "Can I ring this up for you? It is a really nice guitar."

facepalm

It may say "guitar" on the door, but I would rather order a guitar unplayed from Sweetwater. Actually, I don't know why I went to Guitar Center looking for a nice guitar when Willcutt Guitars is just a few miles away.
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This post edited for speling.

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#2578035 - 03/05/14 05:31 PM Re: The end of Guitar Center? [Re: RABid]
Dana. Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9238
Loc: Brooklyn

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