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#2536414 - 10/17/13 05:34 AM Yamaha CP4 - first impressions
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
I've had the new CP4 only two days now, with very little time to really dig deep yet.
However, I thought I'd share that this is one really special stage piano.

The action is fabulous. You have to "work for it", which is something I like. It's firm yet responsive, and seems calibrated for the APs. The wooden keys with faux ivory tops are really nice. I've owned a Yamaha acoustic grand for 20 years now and the CP sound and action is very familiar to me. I also gigged with a CP33 a lot and this board has that familiar feel but is also a significant upgrade. The EPs play less well from this action, but the finger-to-sound connection is acceptable. My NS2 felt best playing the EPs and I will miss that. The CP4 won't be the same funky experience.

The acoustic pianos are very finely detailed. I prefer the CFIII sample, which is balanced well between the fundamental and harmonics. There's plenty of wood sound and coupled with the action you can really hear and feel the key hitting the bottom of the keybed, something I find reassuring and necessary as part of the digital piano experience.

The EPs are very good, but one sample has a little noise on it that sounds like aliasing to me, something most yamaha EPs have had for a while now. That aside, they aren't all like that and there's a fabulous patch that sounds exactly like the Rhodes Herbie uses on "Butterfly", which is truly inspirational.

I have a gig on it tomorrow night so I'm looking forward to see how well it runs in mono and how it sits in the mix.

The user interface fixes all the issues that stopped me from buying a CP5. Very intuitive and easy to navigate, set up splits and change sounds.

I am amazed at how light and well balanced this board is. On paper it's 1kg lighter than my NS2 but somehow it feels lighter. This has been achieved by the plastic casing, which seems firm enough, but I'm not sure how it would stand up to a hard knock, such as a mic stand falling over on it.

I will write more when I've got a few more kilometers on it, including some manual diving. In the meantime here are some unboxing photos.

Darren




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#2536426 - 10/17/13 06:12 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Phew! The world can continue to spin on its axis. wink

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#2536431 - 10/17/13 06:21 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Thanks for that. You might not be interested, but perhaps others are.
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#2536433 - 10/17/13 06:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
ITGITC? Offline
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Nice. thu

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#2536435 - 10/17/13 06:37 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
I am amazed at how light and well balanced this board is. On paper it's 1kg lighter than my NS2 but somehow it feels lighter.

Funny how that mirrors what I reported recently, in comparing a NS2-73 and the Numa Organ. On paper, they are about the same weight, but somehow the Numa feels a lot lighter to me! It's not even like the NS2 feels unbalanced or difficult to grip. I can't figure out what makes the Nord feel heavier than it is. (Or the Numa lighter, depending how you look at it.)

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#2536436 - 10/17/13 06:53 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 167
Very nice review. Nothing like having a premium piano AND a premium organ (in separate boxes) in your arsenal, especially if you're a jazz player. Enjoy.

BTW, I thought good, intelligent, user reviews of new equipment was a big part of what this board was about, so I don't quite understand the sarcasm. Am I missing something?

chas
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#2536439 - 10/17/13 07:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Manolios Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
Thank you very much for your impressions / little review. Looking forward to your report from the live playing experience... smile

Looks like a very fine board. I'm afraid I'll part with my CP5 soon...
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CP4 / MOX6 / BK-7m

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#2536440 - 10/17/13 07:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
Thanks for that. You might not be interested, but perhaps others are.

You saw the wink, yes? Just some light teasing because you seem to have been struggling to find a digital piano that you're happy with for a while. If you saw my post in the main CP4 thread, you'd know that I've played the CP4 and liked it. Glad you do too. cool

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#2536457 - 10/17/13 07:44 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: cgiles]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
I don't understand disrespecting a good review either.

Possibly this had something to do with comments about playing the Nord Stage as being a "funky experience"....?? That's an awfully expensive experience by the way.

Hearing news about the CP-4 is of great interest to me, as I am not sure how long its going to be before I get to play one.

It's interesting to hear about which of the piano samples seems to be most effective though. If I am not mistaken the CFIII sample has been out on other boards, but perhaps not with this combination of electric pianos.

I would also be curios to hear about what they have given us for organ sounds, and particularly if there is something that could be used for lower manual bass. Darren would know that.

Thank you for the helpful review , and please continue to let us know more.

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#2536458 - 10/17/13 07:48 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Fábio Sena Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Brasília - Brazil
Hi Darren,

Thank you for the post!

I'm thinking about selling my CP50 and buying the CP4. I love the CP50 action because it's very close to a grand piano action (I usually play in a Kawai baby grand and a Yamaha CFIII in my school). The main reason to exchange is the weight and the new CFX piano sample. Maybe it will cut through the mix better then the CFIII sample. What do you think?

Cheers

Fábio

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#2536463 - 10/17/13 07:55 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Fábio Sena]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 4523
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
Man, can't wait to hear more. This is next item for me for sure.

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#2536468 - 10/17/13 08:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: LX88
I don't understand disrespecting a good review either.

You say disrespecting, I say let's keep a sense of humor about all our fussing, fighting, and GAS over gear.

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#2536470 - 10/17/13 08:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 2139
Naah.

If you've been around here long enough, you should know what you're going to get. Wink or not wink

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#2536471 - 10/17/13 08:10 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drawback]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
.

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#2536473 - 10/17/13 08:18 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Who? What? Hey!!! DId you spill my pint???

FIGHT!!!!! mad

Nice review btw. grin

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#2536477 - 10/17/13 08:25 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 2093
It's fun to recognize the Yamaha box style. It looks great!

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#2536478 - 10/17/13 08:26 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
As Mick Jagger famously once said, Who's fighting and what for?

Darren, enjoy the CP4.

snax

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#2536482 - 10/17/13 08:30 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3432
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Congrats, Darren, nice looking board. Must...resist...GAS...
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#2536519 - 10/17/13 10:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 754
Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
I am amazed at how light and well balanced this board is. On paper it's 1kg lighter than my NS2 but somehow it feels lighter.

Funny how that mirrors what I reported recently, in comparing a NS2-73 and the Numa Organ. On paper, they are about the same weight, but somehow the Numa feels a lot lighter to me! It's not even like the NS2 feels unbalanced or difficult to grip. I can't figure out what makes the Nord feel heavier than it is. (Or the Numa lighter, depending how you look at it.)


It's the adrenalin rush you experience when you pick up your new baby. smile
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#2536521 - 10/17/13 10:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 1992
Loc: San Francisco
I'm interested in reading all CP4 reviews, and particularly from someone like Darren. But it's better when they're all in one thread. Maybe you could paste a copy into the pre-existing "CP4" thread.
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#2536523 - 10/17/13 10:09 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Coolness Darren. cool Good review too.

I was able to play the CP4 again for the first time since my sneak peak back in August. There was a CP5 right next to it. I still think the CP4 is a no brainer for a gigging player, especially one that's coming more from an acoustic background, but I still might prefer the lighter action on the 5. That older NW action still feels awfully darn responsive and just basically how I like things to feel for single note jazz lines. I'd probably appreciate the CP4 as much after doing a few gigs with it though I'm guessing.

Personally, I'd still like to have the CP5, at least for home use. Maybe in our office by the computer, as I don't have a keyboard in the house. It's always a drag having to run out to the detached studio from the house to check a key of a song or quick harmonic idea that pops into my head. And I still like playing with the "modern jazz" drum program on the CP5...it swings better then some drummers I know. laugh

Briefly OT-I downloaded that new OS for the Nord Piano 2 that supposedly improves the touch. It does but very incrementally, at least through phones. Maybe I'll have a more positive report after using it on a gig through speakers this weekend.

In the meantime, yes the CP4 is definitely on my *to get list*, hopefully sooner then later. cool
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2536534 - 10/17/13 10:56 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Manolios]
Moonglow Online   content
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Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 3485
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Originally Posted By: Manolios
Looking forward to your report from the live playing experience...

+1, especially the mono thing, which seems to have been a major issue with the CP5. Thanks for your review and the gear porn!
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#2536564 - 10/17/13 01:55 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: D-Bone
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
Thanks for that. You might not be interested, but perhaps others are.

You saw the wink, yes? Just some light teasing because you seem to have been struggling to find a digital piano that you're happy with for a while. If you saw my post in the main CP4 thread, you'd know that I've played the CP4 and liked it. Glad you do too. cool


No problem then...
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#2536567 - 10/17/13 02:06 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
That older NW action still feels awfully darn responsive and just basically how I like things to feel for single note jazz lines. I'd probably appreciate the CP4 as much after doing a few gigs with it though.

It's always a drag having to run out to the detached studio from the house to check a key of a song or quick harmonic idea that pops into my head.


Thanks Dave,
My memory of the NW action in the CP5 is that the Rhodes sounds felt good to play. You could 'slap' the keys ( for want of a better expression) to get that funky edge and vibe, just like a real Rhodes. I expect that the new CP4 action won't be the same experience, but hopefully I'm wrong about that. Perhaps it's possible to change the keyboard response curve per Performance patch.

I think the CP4 will actually be a good workout for my chops.

I too have a detached studio, and I feel silly complaining about having to run outside for small tasks, but it doesn't stop me from feeling inconvenienced!
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#2536608 - 10/17/13 04:26 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Kawai James Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 432
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Congrats!

The board looks great!

I'm looking forward to playing one of these for myself soon...

James
x
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#2536650 - 10/17/13 06:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Kawai James]
Doc Tonewheel Offline
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Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 302
Loc: West Chester, PA
I can't wait for mine to arrive!!!!!
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stock 1974 Hammond A105, Leslie 122RV, Minimoog Model D, Yamaha CP4, Hammond XK-1c, Yamaha Motif XF7, Hohner D6 Clavinet, a bunch of VSTs.

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#2536652 - 10/17/13 06:15 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Doc Tonewheel]
rcc Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Chicago, IL
Congratulations - enjoy! smile
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#2536668 - 10/17/13 07:39 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: rcc]
Moon Zero Two Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
Still waiting for mine to arrive as well...thanks for the review and pics.

I have been messing around on a Kronos 73 for the past couple of weeks and its a great board lot of fun but the cp5 feels like a real instrument if you know what I mean. I, and my chiropractor have high hopes for the cp4.

Ps iPad auto complete does some weird things: I and my chiropractor have HIV? Really iPad?

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#2536682 - 10/17/13 08:59 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moon Zero Two]
scales Offline
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Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Daphne, AL
I agree, it does make you "work for it". Well said. I love the response to the Rhodes. Hit that "comp" button, it helps. The black keys seem to be a little sharper on the edges than on the CP-5. It's taken a bit to get used to that feel. The more time I spend on the CP-4 the better it feels and my playing is getting more precise so to speak. There is something special about the player/keybed connection on the CP-5.

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#2536690 - 10/17/13 09:52 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: scales]
cphollis Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 258
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
I guess I'm going to have to give the CP4 a shot, based on all the love that's flowing freely here ...

Right now, I'm pretty happy with my Nord Piano 2. My CP5 doesn't get a lot of use due to weight and being a royal bitch to program realtime during a gig.

Anyone got any head-to-head comments with the NP2?
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Keys: Nord Stage 2, Nord Piano 2, Nord Electro 4D
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Support: Spider Pro stands, Yamaha MG series mixers

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#2536697 - 10/17/13 10:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: cphollis]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Chuck--having sold my CP5 in May of 2012, I've been using the Nord Piano 2 since. I bought the CP5 in August of 2010 and used it on every gig until the schlep got to be too much.

The CP5 was pretty much retired from active use around Nov. of 2011. I started using the original NP88 a little before that. So all totaled, I've been exclusively red with both the NP88 & NP2 now for a little over 2 years. So I feel I have a pretty decent perspective of both the Yamaha and Nord pianos.

If you're talking about NP2 vs CP4...I've probably had an hour and fifteen minutes on the Yamaha total in the two occasions I've played it. That was long enough for me to know which one would work better for what I do. smile

The NP2 still does the job and I've learned to put up with the quirkiness of it. In some contexts and acoustically good rooms, the sound is stunningly realistic live.

Nord has made great strides the last few years with the introduction of the "long release" & "string resonance" features, along with the new Faziloi, Yamaha Bright Grand and Bosendorfer samples. Yet the player connection seems to always lag way behind for me. So consequently, I've never been personally happy with my playing on any of the more serious listening performances where there wasn't a good acoustic, and I had to use the Nord. The past two years on certain gigs, I've tried to get in that mindset of--"it ain't me" and just do my best. I've really tried to not let it get too under my skin. I'm getting way better with that mental approach but still not quite there yet. wink

So yes, it will be nice to get back to what I feel is more home base for me--Yamaha digital pianos. Like I've said quite often here and other places--I highly regretted selling the CP5.

For people like me (that come from an acoustic jazz/classical background), Yamaha just seems to do the right things with regard to sound, action and total player connection on their instruments.

I'd have the CP4 right now if not for going up to Point Reyes Station in Marin County next week to get measured/fit for a custom mountain bike from legendary builder Steve Potts. cool
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2536698 - 10/17/13 10:38 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Congrats, Darren, nice looking board. Must...resist...GAS...


I don't think so, Aidan. You're already circling the drain of GAS and there's a Yamaha box at the other end... wink
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#2536700 - 10/17/13 11:54 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
Manolios Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
For people like me (that come from an acoustic jazz/classical background), Yamaha just seems to do the right things with regard to sound, action and total player connection on their instruments.


+1

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I'd have the CP4 right now if not for going up to Point Reyes Station in Marin County next week to get measured/fit for a custom mountain bike from legendary builder Steve Potts. cool


Wow! Green with envy here! sick cool

Yeah, I'd have it right now too, if it would be available here in Germany. But first I have to get rid of my good old CP5.
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#2536736 - 10/18/13 07:02 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 2139
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
For people like me (that come from an acoustic jazz/classical background), Yamaha just seems to do the right things with regard to sound, action and total player connection on their instruments.


+2

The CP4 is one of those significant upgrades that is going to bring me back to a two keyboard setup. I'm getting tired of the compromises and work-arounds that come with everything else.

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#2536766 - 10/18/13 08:44 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drawback]
Jazz+ Offline
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Posts: 4668
How are the onboard speakers?
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#2536781 - 10/18/13 09:09 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Jazz+]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
How are the onboard speakers?

Not as good as the ones on the Nord Lead.

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#2536866 - 10/18/13 12:46 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Can't wait to try one....

I have bought most of the pianos I have owned without trying them out first... more to do with where I have lived to be honest. I remember getting the Yamaha P80 and being blown away by it... would love to play one of those again just to see if it actually was any good. I remember getting the P120 and being so disappointed... RD700GX was a good upgrade but was kinda heavy...

Only keyboard I tried beforehand was the Korg SV1 (they had one in a shop in Paris) which was a nice board to have as it was something I could easily go to gigs with and setup... plus it seemed to sound nice when I sat in the audience and heard others play it! However, the action was wanting... will be good to actually try out the CP4 this time!


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#2536894 - 10/18/13 01:53 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 3147
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Can't wait to try one....

I have bought most of the pianos I have owned without trying them out first... more to do with where I have lived to be honest. I remember getting the Yamaha P80 and being blown away by it... would love to play one of those again just to see if it actually was any good. I remember getting the P120 and being so disappointed... RD700GX was a good upgrade but was kinda heavy...

Only keyboard I tried beforehand was the Korg SV1 (they had one in a shop in Paris) which was a nice board to have as it was something I could easily go to gigs with and setup... plus it seemed to sound nice when I sat in the audience and heard others play it! However, the action was wanting... will be good to actually try out the CP4 this time!


Aren't you a real Fender Rhodes fellow, or is that someone else we were on a thread together with?

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#2536920 - 10/18/13 02:57 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: I-missRichardTee]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
I am indeed that very fellow grin

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#2536988 - 10/18/13 08:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
cphollis Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 258
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Dave --

I get what you mean about the player/keyboard connection with a Yamaha keybed. Long list of Yamaha keyboards and pianos in my world: the CP-5, the N2, a U1, a CP88 at one time -- and of course my darling 6' grand.

But I gig with Nords.

You're right -- the Nord NP2 has the sounds, but you never feel connected through they keybed. It's almost like it's someone else playing. I've always thought that was my problem -- I should just spend more time -- but after your comments I think there's more than that.

Thanks for the perspective ...
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Keys: Nord Stage 2, Nord Piano 2, Nord Electro 4D
Amps: Fulcrum Acoustic 12acs, QSC K10s and K12s
Support: Spider Pro stands, Yamaha MG series mixers

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#2537029 - 10/18/13 11:44 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: cphollis]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Well I used the CP4 last night for the first time on a jazz quartet gig, playing fairly simple standards and blues. I ran my rig in mono, using one balanced XLR cable into my QSC K10.

During sound check I compared the stereo CFIII sample with the mono, and decided that the stereo sounded better, even though I was only getting half the information. During the sets I switched back and forth between the same a few times to get more perspective, and stuck with the stereo version. I also tried the CFX and ultimately preferred it, even though it's a big bold sound.

Yamaha have done something curious with the naming of the variations each piano.
Some are labelled as St, then St+, St- and Mn, Mn+ and Mn-. From the manuals, it is not clear what these mean. In terms of stereo, St+ could mean a wider stereo image or it could mean the right side of the image with St- being the left. However this logic doesn't really apply to the Mono files, or does it?

The mono files sound good though, and are a little fatter but less detailed than half the stereo image. As the CFX is already the size of King Kong, I opted for the more detail.

As for the action, I enjoyed the workout and felt I hit my stride in the second set. I wouldn't say I have completed adjusted to the action, but that could be influenced by the fact that the last month has been nothing but organ gigs, and the action on the CP4 is yet to be played in. I felt more confident than I did on the NS2 though, and from memory that took me some time to get used to also.

The cabinet is overly plasticky, and feels cheap as a result, but I realise this is where Yamaha has shaved the weight from. We can't have it both ways. Yamaha have use plastic ends on top line boards since the 80s (ah I wish I still had my KX76 - best non weight action ever!) but I think this might be a first as the cabinet is entirely plastic.

The display is recessed, which is going to be a dust trap, but as a buddy pointed out, it lets you leave your iPad there comfortably. Good thinking Yamaha.

My band mates were suitably impressed, giving many compliments on the sound.
I didn't get an opportunity to use the Rhodes samples - it simply wasn't appropriate on this gig. I have tried them through my QSC though (my first audition was through headphones) and I feel I must retract most of my original post regarding the actions suitability to playing them. They feel fine!

Again I'm tempted to buy another QSC to run stereo on all gigs....

I have checked out some of the editing features and the 3 user manuals. There's a LOT under the hood. I was particularly impressed that there is a resonant filter with its own envelope generator. Given the quality of some of the synth patches, I imagine one could coax many textures from this board. The amp models and other stomp box type effects are very good too. One thing I haven't quite mastered yet is the architecture and relationship between basic tones and performances. The manual is a little contradictory here and I think that is what is confusing me. I'll have to figure it out and report back or perhaps someone else can? The 3 controller sliders that can be switched between volume, chorus and reverb are a good idea. I must admit I had gotten used to the immediacy of the NS2, so I will miss being able to grab a knob for most on the fly edits.

Clavinet. Now this is a strange sound on this board, and I can't say I've ever thought Yamaha's interpretation of the D6 to be anywhere near right. This one sounds more like a harpsichord to me. Lucky it's not something I use often. Perhaps someone will develop one for the iPad soon and I up an use the master keyboard functions to replace it?

In terms of gig bag, I wanted a Fusion bag as they are very light. Unfortunately the Australian Distributor is not stocking them anymore, so I had to get an SKB 88 narrow model with inline skate wheels. It's a good bag, but you cannot fit the Yamaha music rest in the side pockets (d'oh). Perhaps this will be the impetus to get me to put all charts on iPad from now on. Unfortunately it's a heavy bag, damn it, but it will protect the board very well.

That's all I can think of right now. I'm gigging all weekend on organ so I won't check this baby out again till late next week I imagine. Till then, here's a pic from the gig...



Edited by dazzjazz (10/18/13 11:45 PM)
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#2537070 - 10/19/13 07:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Moonglow Online   content
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Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 3485
Loc: Northwest Indiana
Thanks for that nice review. I especially enjoy reading reviews of keyboards in live performance situations. Interesting how you preferred the stereo programs over the mono patches!
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#2537076 - 10/19/13 07:48 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Manolios Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
Thank you for the review and the pic! Nice looking board IMO! I likey very much wink
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#2537084 - 10/19/13 08:31 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Manolios]
bryanstern Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 65
Yes. Thanks so much for the detailed info. Much appreciated. I await delivery of my CP4 with increasing excitement and impatience.

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#2537108 - 10/19/13 09:26 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: bryanstern]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 4523
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
Now that I see it set up on a gig it reminds me a lot of the CP33.

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#2537123 - 10/19/13 10:03 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Bill H. Offline
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 3278
Loc: Columbia River Gorge, US
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz

Yamaha have done something curious with the naming of the variations each piano.
Some are labelled as St, then St+, St- and Mn, Mn+ and Mn-. From the manuals, it is not clear what these mean. In terms of stereo, St+ could mean a wider stereo image or it could mean the right side of the image with St- being the left. However this logic doesn't really apply to the Mono files, or does it?


On my Motif, the + and - means that the entire sampleset is keymapped either up or down the keyboard from where the samples were originally taken. Up makes the sound a bit brighter and thinner, down darker and thicker. In addition - if there's a break in the sampleset in a place that bothers you, you can move it to another location by choosing one of these variations.

BTW Motifs give you the tools to custom keymap it's samplesets yourself, although it's one of the most frustrating and hair pulling adventures you'll ever go through in programming. Rolands (and my new PX-5s) make this task a breeze.

Its just one of many things that constantly remind me why I will never purchase another Motif again. This new CP4 is another story though smile

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#2537184 - 10/19/13 12:48 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Bill H.]
keyguy Offline
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Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
I've been going through the CP4 manual, and I can't see where the "local off" parameter is one of the options in Master Mode. On my CP33, I turn "local off" for my left hand bass to transmit to my motif rack without the CP sounding. Surely I have missed this?
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#2537197 - 10/19/13 01:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
BradD Offline
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Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 29
Loc: Kansas City, MO
One thing I haven't been able to determine is whether the CP4 allows the user to save splits, layers, and other patch changes as presets. Any information on this would be much appreciated.
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#2537198 - 10/19/13 01:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
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Registered: 02/27/10
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It sounds like a challenging machine, I suppose Yamaha is being clear "this is a good machine" for reasons. It's a guess how much can be edited to the point of much better, more interesting sounds. I recall I could sure do some things with editing motif sounds, but I'd not say I can create a whole new range of them, and actually that might not even be such a great idea given the sort of taste that has been built in.

Today I was making whole new Kurzweil piano sounds, and tomorrow I'll compare them with the demos from Yamaha, for fun. I wonder if the deep editing is possible to make this stage piano really interestingly different!

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#2537230 - 10/19/13 04:07 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Theo Verelst]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 3142
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Got to play one at the local GC today. Spent about 30 minutes before some idiot decided to "make beatz" on the Fantom right next to me...at 120db. Sheesh.

Anyway, from what little I could tell through a little Behringer keyboard amp - it plays wonderfully fluid, I personally totally dig the action. CFS piano sounded great given the amp used. Difficult for me to tell what the spectrum of EPs is and how it will sound over real amplification, but I didn't hear anything that doesn't promise to sound superb. Very utilitarian plastic construction.

The clavs are...interesting. But just when I was trying to spend some thoughtful time with the string sounds, it was welcome to drum loops on the Fantom time.

The ace in the hole for me is the piano sounds. Connection to finger/action seems really sweet. Can't wait for my preorder from SW to show up.
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#2537284 - 10/19/13 10:28 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 432
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thanks for the review Darren!

James
x
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#2537285 - 10/19/13 10:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Kawai James]
Keybass Offline
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Registered: 06/23/03
Posts: 360
I had the opportunity to play the CP-4 today. I think it is a great DP with many strengths but in no way do I feel it is superior to the CP-5 as a musical instrument. It is lighter and to some the interface may seem easier but the overall sound and playing experience is much better on the CP-5.

The bargain at the moment seems to be the number of good demo CP-5's at blow out prices.

Just my .02 cents
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#2537305 - 10/20/13 12:37 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Keybass]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Keybass
I had the opportunity to play the CP-4 today. I think it is a great DP with many strengths but in no way do I feel it is superior to the CP-5 as a musical instrument. It is lighter and to some the interface may seem easier but the overall sound and playing experience is much better on the CP-5.

The bargain at the moment seems to be the number of good demo CP-5's at blow out prices.

Just my .02 cents


Can't say I disagree with anything you posted. But my 60 year old body definitely is saying to me...cp4, cp4. cry
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2537312 - 10/20/13 02:05 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
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I asked keyboard wizard Dave Ferris, about why he thought playing the CP5 hurt my finger tips. I turned the touch to Soft, and turned the volume up, so I could play lighter; but I am still a bit fearful of the CP5 I bought 6 weeks ago.
Anyone out here have a clue what is going on with these fingertips and the CP5??

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#2537824 - 10/21/13 08:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
Got word my cp4 is shipping today. Excellent. I have a couple of gigs in November to try it out on.

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#2537856 - 10/22/13 01:16 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: I-missRichardTee]
John Tweed Offline
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Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 101
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
I asked keyboard wizard Dave Ferris, about why he thought playing the CP5 hurt my finger tips. I turned the touch to Soft, and turned the volume up, so I could play lighter; but I am still a bit fearful of the CP5 I bought 6 weeks ago.
Anyone out here have a clue what is going on with these fingertips and the CP5??

I don't know what causes it, but I used to get the same thing, mainly in my right pinky, from the P120. That was one reason I got rid of it, and the other being the awful mono sound. The CP4 looks like everything that I had hoped for when the CP5 came out. I ended up with a PX3 instead, and have not experienced the pinky problem since. And the mono sound is fine too. I'm keen to get a CP4 though. I spent some months rehearing for a band on a CP33 and that was OK, so I'm hopeful it won't be a problem.
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#2537858 - 10/22/13 01:38 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: John Tweed]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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"Pinky", eh? I believe in my case, it is more than one finger. Anyone else out here... this fingertip discomfort??
Dave Ferris, mentioned something about having this kind of discomfort as well.. but not on a yamaha. Weirdest thing!

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#2537961 - 10/22/13 10:23 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: I-missRichardTee]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
So.... where are all these demo CP-5's at blowout prices?

At this point I would have to look at what the advantages of the CP-4 over the CP-5 would be besides the weight. I really don't schlep a DP all that much these days. I do most of my stuff on a 22 lb. Numa organ, though I might want to add some EP sounds to that via Motif rack or something similar.

I would like to have the best DP out there for the money right now. Unfortunately, it's not going to be a Casio.

So if there are really some ridiculous deals on CP-5's out there I would like to hear about it. I guess I could sacrifice this newest CFX sample, because I really like the action on the CP-5.

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#2537966 - 10/22/13 10:47 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
Karl Sutton Offline
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Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 412
Loc: Mount Juliet, TN
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I'd have the CP4 right now if not for going up to Point Reyes Station in Marin County next week to get measured/fit for a custom mountain bike from legendary builder Steve Potts. cool


This sounds like more fun for sure!
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#2538079 - 10/22/13 07:26 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Karl Sutton]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Somehow I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to save a performance with a different name! I can edit the name easily enough, but the usual Save routine, which works on other edits fine, doesn't seem to apply to the name editing.

Anyone?
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#2538090 - 10/22/13 08:03 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 3147
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: LX88
So.... where are all these demo CP-5's at blowout prices?

At this point I would have to look at what the advantages of the CP-4 over the CP-5 would be besides the weight. I really don't schlep a DP all that much these days. I do most of my stuff on a 22 lb. Numa organ, though I might want to add some EP sounds to that via Motif rack or something similar.

I would like to have the best DP out there for the money right now. Unfortunately, it's not going to be a Casio.

So if there are really some ridiculous deals on CP-5's out there I would like to hear about it. I guess I could sacrifice this newest CFX sample, because I really like the action on the CP-5.


I bought a demo CP5 about two months ago, it is scratched on the side panels ( not the top ) from being in a not too busy Guitar Center for well over a YEAR. But the price was hard to beat $1300. I may be selling it.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (10/22/13 08:04 PM)

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#2538098 - 10/22/13 08:25 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
Keybass Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/23/03
Posts: 360
Originally Posted By: LX88
So.... where are all these demo CP-5's at blowout prices?

At this point I would have to look at what the advantages of the CP-4 over the CP-5 would be besides the weight. I really don't schlep a DP all that much these days. I do most of my stuff on a 22 lb. Numa organ, though I might want to add some EP sounds to that via Motif rack or something similar.

I would like to have the best DP out there for the money right now. Unfortunately, it's not going to be a Casio.

So if there are really some ridiculous deals on CP-5's out there I would like to hear about it. I guess I could sacrifice this newest CFX sample, because I really like the action on the CP-5.


Check Guitar Center. I saw a very fresh looking unit at the Hollywood store recently for $1,199.00. I consider that a blowout price.
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#2538110 - 10/22/13 08:42 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Keybass]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
Getting a CP-5 in good condition at that price is a blowout.I would strongly consider a deal like that if I saw it.

I haven't seen anything offered online at that price though. Guitar Center might be the kind of place that has to make room for new Yamaha gear.

That is a heck of an instrument for that money. Sometimes it's best to buy behind the curve.

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#2538135 - 10/22/13 10:25 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Here's a short improvisation on the CP4 Stage, using the default CFX sample. Recorded on the unit itself. No other processing.

https://soundcloud.com/darren-heinrich/improvisation-1-yamaha-cp4
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#2538140 - 10/22/13 11:33 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Manolios Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
Thanks! Excellent sound... I like it more than the CFIIIS in the CP5.
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#2538141 - 10/22/13 11:37 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 1287
I tried one out in a store today. After not being terribly excited by the initial announcement, I have to say I was impressed. I agree with those who said the action was like the CP5 but a little heavier, which is just perfect for me. I love the finger-ear connection on the CP5, but have always wished for a little more resistance. The CP4 nails it. The new CFX is big and spacious, and a nice compliment to the CFIII and S6. And to my surprise, I found I actually like the look of the fake Tolex. (Faux-lex?)

There was also a CP40 in the store. It wasn't plugged in and the power supply wasn't obviously laying around, so I didn't get to do a real comparison. However, a few seconds of playing it silently was enough to convince me that the difference in action alone was worth the extra cost of the CP4, to say nothing of the additional sounds and features. The 40 felt plasticky and mushy by comparison.

So I've gone from "not interested" to "somewhat tempted." I'm still not sure if I'm willing to drag around an extra 15 pounds after having been spoiled by Privias. And I'm definitely not making a move until NAMM rolls around, on the infinitesimally slim chance that Korg surprises us with an SV-2 that combines the best of the SV-1 and Kronos, and will be shipping by late January. (Hey, a guy can dream can't he?) But the CP4 is a real contender for my next upgrade.

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#2538145 - 10/22/13 11:42 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Keybass]
Manolios Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
Oh man, 1199 $ is just ridiculous, I paid 2369€ for my CP5 2 years ago!
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#2538167 - 10/23/13 02:38 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Manolios Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
...and very nice playing BTW! I enjoyed Midnight Creeper a lot too !
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#2538205 - 10/23/13 07:30 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Manolios]
JFN Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 6
I’ve had my CP4 for about a week now and have a few initial impressions. I am former CP5 owner, having sold my CP5 to a friend just before getting the CP4.

I can basically confirm the nice things people have been commenting on (i.e. action feel great, connection to sound is very good, pianos sound nice, etc.).

CFX Grand sounds like Nord Bosendorfer. I was comparing the Piano sounds in my Nord Electro 4HP, one of which was the Bosendorfer XL, and it sure sounds like the same piano as the CFX Grand in the CP4, at least to me.

Effects. It seems there are fewer Effect choices than on the CP5. For example, there are limited Phaser options and it does not have the very nice VCM Phaser from the Motif line. There is no 816Chorus effect either. The tremolo/pan effect which is included in the Rhodes Pre-Amp effect cannot be turned on and off from a controller, unless you want to bypass the entire Pre-amp effect. The Power Amp block with the Rhodes power amp simulators also seems to be missing.

Performance mode. As some else had mentioned, the relationship between Voice mode and Performance mode is a bit unclear. The ability to quickly select a voice is nice with the Voice Category buttons. This is a big improvement on the CP5. This doesn’t seem to work so well in Performance mode. There are 128 user storable Performances arranged in the typical Yamaha A01 – H16 layout. They do not line up with the Category buttons though. For example, Performance #2 (A02) which can be selected by pressing the second category button (CF Grand) brings up a Rhodes performance. I could re-shuffle the performances but that would be a huge pain without librarian software.

Also, the manner in which you go between Performance and Voice mode is not that clear. When you change the voice of the current performance, from say the CFX Grand to a Rhodes w/ Phaser, some of the effects come over with the new voice but it is not clear what parameters from the original Performance remain intact.

Overall I’m happy with it and feel that improvements over the CP5 make up for the few minor issues I found thus far. I would say the acoustic pianos are improved but I think the Rhodes sounds are not as strong as the CP1/CP5. This is especially the case if you want to load in the excellent Rhodes presets that Burningbusch published for the CP1. I had a hard time trying to duplicate those wonderful sounds due to effects limitations. I’ll keep experimenting though.

John

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#2538206 - 10/23/13 07:30 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Manolios]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3432
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Nice, Darren! The CFX sounds more 'organic' to me than the CFIIIS in the CP5, which while very beautiful, I always thought sounded a little too perfect and a bit sterile. This thing is beginning to wear me down...!

I know they probably don't play much part in what you plan to do with the board but how are the non-keys sounds? Are they comparable with their Motif namesakes?
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#2538207 - 10/23/13 07:33 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Another good demo, for those who've not yet seen it. Some well-known tunelets in here....!

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#2538210 - 10/23/13 07:43 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
16251 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1181
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Nice, Darren! The CFX sounds more 'organic' to me than the CFIIIS in the CP5, which while very beautiful, I always thought sounded a little too perfect and a bit sterile. This thing is beginning to wear me down...!

I know they probably don't play much part in what you plan to do with the board but how are the non-keys sounds? Are they comparable with their Motif namesakes?
would the sterile-ness be as a result of not sampling every note. I owned a p-80 and p90 and that was the reason why I got tired of those instruments.
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#2538218 - 10/23/13 07:55 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: 16251]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
16251, I don't think so, really. I had a CP33 which preceded the CP5 (with a Roland RD in between) and never observed the same phenomenon. The CP5 just wasn't visceral enough for me, in the end. More pertinently, it sounded like crap in mono and was damn heavy.
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#2538219 - 10/23/13 07:56 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 2714
Loc: arrange window
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
Here's a short improvisation on the CP4 Stage, using the default CFX sample. Recorded on the unit itself. No other processing.

https://soundcloud.com/darren-heinrich/improvisation-1-yamaha-cp4


Thx, great playing and sounds good !
I´d be interested to hear some more electric piano examples on Soundcloud because Youtube isn´t a reference anyway.

A.C.
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#2538221 - 10/23/13 07:57 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: JFN]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: JFN
CFX Grand sounds like Nord Bosendorfer. I was comparing the Piano sounds in my Nord Electro 4HP, one of which was the Bosendorfer XL, and it sure sounds like the same piano as the CFX Grand in the CP4, at least to me.

That's interesting, since the actual CFX grand was introduced after Yamaha's purchase of Bosendorfer. I wonder if that model has some Bosendorfer heritage in it.

BTW, for those looking for a bargain on the previous generation, about a week ago I saw a CP1 in the Manhattan GC for a very low price, somewhere in the teens. Not sure if it was a demo/closeout or a used trade-in.

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#2538222 - 10/23/13 07:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 2714
Loc: arrange window
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Another good demo, for those who've not yet seen it. Some well-known tunelets in here....!


Hmm, for me it´s hard to comment on soundquality w/ Youtube vids.
In addition, the master EQ in this demo isn´t flat.

A.C.
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#2538223 - 10/23/13 08:00 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: 16251]
ProfD Online   content
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Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 8317
Loc: Wash DC Area
I saw a Yamaha CP40 in the music store last week and didn't even bother to play it i.e. aesthetically disconnected. laugh

Seriously, I'll take the new CP4 for a spin eventually. But, if I were buying a DP, I'd grab a CP5 epecially if the price was right.

In the meantime, my Motif ES8 is still safe from eBay. grin cool
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#2538244 - 10/23/13 08:39 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
dje31 Online   content
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Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 36
Okay, I'm having a case of mental flatulence...what's the first tunelet ( 0:00-0:23 ) on the CP4 demo?

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#2538250 - 10/23/13 08:53 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dje31]
Aidan Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3432
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Firth of Fifth, Genesis.
_________________________
Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361 | Crumar Mojo

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#2538257 - 10/23/13 09:11 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
dje31 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/13
Posts: 36
Thanks, Aidan. That was driving me nuts...was thinking it was part of a Keith Emerson invention.


Edited by dje31 (10/23/13 09:11 AM)

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#2538284 - 10/23/13 12:19 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dje31]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 4668
Are they sampling every note in the CP4 Piano?

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#2538295 - 10/23/13 01:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Jazz+]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
I'm not sure. I can't figure out from all I've read wether it's sampling or modelling or a bit of both.
_________________________
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#2538306 - 10/23/13 01:46 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Michael Wright Offline
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Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 1208
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Firth of Fifth, Genesis.

thu
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Mike

"me? I'm just a lawnmower....you can tell me by the way I walk"
Website

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#2538310 - 10/23/13 01:55 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: JFN]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: JFN


Performance mode. As some else had mentioned, the relationship between Voice mode and Performance mode is a bit unclear. The ability to quickly select a voice is nice with the Voice Category buttons. This is a big improvement on the CP5. This doesn’t seem to work so well in Performance mode. There are 128 user storable Performances arranged in the typical Yamaha A01 – H16 layout. They do not line up with the Category buttons though. For example, Performance #2 (A02) which can be selected by pressing the second category button (CF Grand) brings up a Rhodes performance. I could re-shuffle the performances but that would be a huge pain without librarian software.

Also, the manner in which you go between Performance and Voice mode is not that clear. When you change the voice of the current performance, from say the CFX Grand to a Rhodes w/ Phaser, some of the effects come over with the new voice but it is not clear what parameters from the original Performance remain intact.


Yes it's very confusing. Yesterday I got stuck and couldn't get back to voice mode. I had to power cycle to do so. The manual infers that the unit is always in Performance mode, but in practice it seems this is not the case. From what I can tell, voice mode are like presets or templates, and Performance mode is where you can save your own patches. I figured this out from the headache I had trying to rename what I thought was a performance, but it turned out to just be a voice.

I'm still getting my head around the architecture. Yamaha UIs have never be really straight forward but I think I will be able to work with this. They should check out Nord for lessons on how to write a user manual!
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#2538904 - 10/26/13 01:00 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Manolios Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
New CP4 videos!




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#2539069 - 10/26/13 04:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Manolios]
Doc Tonewheel Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 302
Loc: West Chester, PA
I'll add my 2 cents to mix as well. I have previously owned a P250 and CP300 (which I loved!) and just upgraded to the CP4. The action and feel of the CP4 is fantastic, period. Really a vast improvement over the CP300, which I thought was really good. This alone was worth the upgrade. The weight of the board is incredible. Easily moved, but I think it feels sturdy enough. I listened through a Yamaha DXR10 and headphones. The acoustic pianos sound wonderful, warm, and full. Very expressive and the touch to sound connection is very realistic. They sound great in both stereo and mono. The electric pianos are much, much better than the CP300 which had a weird touch response (hard to play at medium volume, it was either very soft or very load with little in between). I completely agree that the clavinet sounds are weird and a weak point (more like a synthesized clav), but I use Scarbee for my clav sounds, so I can get by, but for a keyboard of this grade, I expected better clav's. Perhaps some editing will make them usable. Organs can get you by in a pinch. Strings and pads are really nice and full sounding, and there are a nice variety of them. Percussive sounds (vibraphone, xylo, marimba) were always a strenght for Yamaha, and sound great.
My current rig for playing out is the CP4 and a Hammond XK-1c with the DXR10 as a monitor, and I couldn't be happier. Like many of the others my age who have been playing from the late 70's on, I never thought I could ever have a rig this lightweight that sounded so incredible.
_________________________
stock 1974 Hammond A105, Leslie 122RV, Minimoog Model D, Yamaha CP4, Hammond XK-1c, Yamaha Motif XF7, Hohner D6 Clavinet, a bunch of VSTs.

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#2539345 - 10/28/13 06:28 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Doc Tonewheel]
J Graul Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 128
Loc: Louisville, KY
My CP4 arrived Saturday. I am loving the touch and response. I'll need to hook up some headphones or studio monitors and get a better feel of the sound as my very old Rhodes amp really sounds like crap. Also need to figure out what case to get for it. And maybe RTFM...

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#2539416 - 10/28/13 12:30 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: J Graul]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Mine just arrived today. Still in the box at my office until I can figure out how to slip it by my wife into my setup...;) Looking at it in the box, the sliders and knobs don't seem to be as substantial as the ones on my CP33 and the top is very plastic and hollow feeling. The keys look and feel great. If that's the way it is in the name of weight, I'm in. I'll post more after I've had a chance to give it a go.
_________________________
Jim Wells
Tallahassee, FL

www.pureplatinumband.com

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#2539434 - 10/28/13 01:47 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
16251 Offline
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Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1181
Originally Posted By: keyguy
Mine just arrived today. Still in the box at my office until I can figure out how to slip it by my wife into my setup...;) Looking at it in the box, the sliders and knobs don't seem to be as substantial as the ones on my CP33 and the top is very plastic and hollow feeling. The keys look and feel great. If that's the way it is in the name of weight, I'm in. I'll post more after I've had a chance to give it a go.
So, no new equipment if wife knows about it? Ah, the give and take of marriage.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2539438 - 10/28/13 02:13 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: 16251]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
Mrs called me at work to let me know that there is a package waiting for me...will I be able to dope it out enought to use on a gig Friday...

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#2539450 - 10/28/13 03:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: 16251]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Originally Posted By: 16251
Originally Posted By: keyguy
Mine just arrived today. Still in the box at my office until I can figure out how to slip it by my wife into my setup...;) Looking at it in the box, the sliders and knobs don't seem to be as substantial as the ones on my CP33 and the top is very plastic and hollow feeling. The keys look and feel great. If that's the way it is in the name of weight, I'm in. I'll post more after I've had a chance to give it a go.
So, no new equipment if wife knows about it? Ah, the give and take of marriage.
She will know immediately, because she is the lead vocalist in our band. She used to these thinks by now...
_________________________
Jim Wells
Tallahassee, FL

www.pureplatinumband.com

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#2539933 - 10/30/13 02:53 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
NickyP Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 6
I found this in the Troubleshooting section on page 51 of the CP4 Manual. I hope that this helps.

Ensure that local control has not been turned off.
If local control is turned off and your stage piano is not being used together with a computer or another device that returns MIDI messages, it will not be possible to produce any sound from the internal tone generator by playing the keyboard.
• Press [UTILITY]; select 02: MIDI and press [ENTER]; set LocalSw to “on”


Edited by NickyP (10/30/13 02:55 PM)
Edit Reason: corrected

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#2540040 - 10/31/13 07:35 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: NickyP]
Suppport Guy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 65
Loc: SoCal
Here is what you need to know to navigate the CP4 interface:
[SHIFT] + [ENTER] = Quick Reset (this is your get-out-of-jail free card)
{This is essentially a initialized performance (although the manual never clearly states this) and can be used when you inherit unwanted effects and other settings programmed for specific use in another performance.}
You may now use the voice category select buttons to audition all the voices in the CP4 and hear them in their most natural state. In each category there are a number of voices which can be reached using the increment/decrement +/- buttons or the data wheel.
Tip: when you find your favorite voice in a category, hold the shift button and press that category button and that voice is saved as the default (first).
If you want a layer, simply press two category buttons. You will notice the layer button will light up on the left and you can adjust the balance using the faders under the layer and main buttons. To stop the layer, press the layer button to turn it off.
To split, simply press the split button on far left. To adjust the split point, hold down the split button and play a key.
This is all a great majority of musical situations might require.
But there is more!
By pressing the performance button, it starts flashing and you are in performance mode.
To navigate performances use increment/decrement or the data wheel. Performances are arranged in banks of 16. When you select a performance and you want to hear other similar performances, press shift and increment to advance by 16 to the same category of performance in the next bank. Conversely, shift and decrement, decreases by 16 to the previous bank. This allows you to audition all of the performances of the same category very easily.
When you hold shift and press performance the screen reads "Direct Performance Select". Now you can select performances by pressing the voice category buttons and advance to the performance banks using increment, the data wheel or shift + increment.
This concludes this quick tutorial on navigating the CP4.
Enjoy!

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#2540048 - 10/31/13 07:54 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Suppport Guy]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Also, I don't know how many people have used "Master Keyboard Mode" on previous Yamaha's, but my problem with it was I never could figure out an easy way to change the master performances on the fly. For example, I play LHand Bass full time in my band, so that meant having a master setup for LHB/Piano, another for LHB/Rhodes, etc. because I send the LH to my Motif rack for the bass sound. There was no quick way to change the right hand voice on the fly. With the CP4 "Master Mode" is built into the performances. In my situation, though, I don't have to use it at all because of a new editable parameter in the voices called "gain". Each performance has 3 components, Main, Layer, and Split. For my situation, I select a voice I rarely use for the split, turn the gain off, save it and set my Motif to receive on channel 3 (the fixed transmit channel for "split")This allows no internal sound from the LH split but sends the MIDI to control the motif rack. Since gain has nothing to do with the MIDI volume, I can still control the split/ bass volume via the slider. I then have the Main and Layer sounds that I can select without affecting the LH split. Sorry if this is long, but this was a huge feature of the CP4, at least for me.
_________________________
Jim Wells
Tallahassee, FL

www.pureplatinumband.com

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#2540073 - 10/31/13 08:39 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Suppport Guy]
Bad Mister Offline
Member

Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1
Loc: New York, NY
Phil Clendeninn here, Yamaha product guy... There is some confusion about the VOICE architecture of the new CP4 Stage. It would help if you knew there is no VOICE mode. When I say that I'm referring to a separate USER VOICE bank, like you might find in a synth, like the Motif-series. Edits made to any program are stored in a PERFORMANCE.

You are always editing a PERFORMANCE. The concept of this Stage Piano is that each Program (called a PERFORMANCE) sets up both the internal engine (3 PARTS: Main, Layer, Split) and any external devices (via 4 Zones)... such that when you recall a PERFORMANCE you are set for everything you need to do. The Layer and Split Voices can be "in waiting"... setup, but not active.

When you want to start programming "from scratch" - this entails [SHIFT] + [ENTER], referred to as a QUICK RESET. This is your INITIALIZED PERFORMANCE if you will. You are working in an EDIT BUFFER - and nothing is harmed or permanently changed until you target a PERFORMANCE location to STORE your program.

When you select a VOICE for one of the three internal PARTS it is recalled with certain parameters that make it work. If you do not start with the QUICK RESET, you may find that you have inherited some parameters. This can be understood when you realize that a VOICE includes its INSERTION EFFECTS but does not include the SYSTEM EFFECTS. Here's how that happens:

The INSERTION EFFECTS are apart of the Voice and automatically come along when you select a VOICE for the MAIN, LAYER or SPLIT PART. Insertion Effects are like a musicians personal effects. They use them alone
The SYSTEM EFFECTS are the effects that behave like those on a mixer (SEND/RETURN scheme)... all parts have access to these via a system similar to AUXILIARY SENDS on a mixer.

The acoustic piano might have a DAMPER RESONANCE as one of its INSERTION EFFECTS (this recreates the soundboard resonance and is linked to the Sustain pedal). The soundboard is very much apart of the acoustic piano emulating its internal reverberation system. It is the personal effect belonging to the acoustic piano.

The SYSTEM EFFECT might be a REVERB HALL (this recreate the outer environment - the room acoustics) not really apart of the piano Voice itself. But apart of the 'mixer' that the three PARTS are connected to.

So if three musicians enter the studio, they each can bring their own two INSERTION EFFECTS and each has its own Volume (called its "GAIN")... they each have a channel on the studio's MIXER...with Volume parameter (Fader) and SEND amounts to the two SYSTEM Effects (they all share the System Effect but each has its own SEND amount control). The System Effects belong to the studio. If you swap Voices for a PART, the new Voice will come with its own two INSERTION EFFECTS but according to the PART (or channel of the MIXER) you place it will mean that it inherits the volume, pan position, System Effect Send amount, etc., that are functions of the mixer. Same as if you plugged a new instrument into a mixer channel that was previously setup for a different instrument.

When you recall any of the four hundred Voices in the CP4 STAGE, you can edit anything about them, change the INSERTION EFFECT to whatever you want... but you don't store it to a USER VOICE, you store it to a PERFORMANCE. The PERFORMANCES are in USER memory, please, please, please re-write them to your requirements. The Factory placed the ones you find - just as suggestions.

For more info on the CP4 Stage Voice architecture, I placed a more complete explanation over on Motifator.com in the BadMister's Blog area.
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/cp4_stage
Hope that helps.

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#2540076 - 10/31/13 08:47 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Bad Mister]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
I should have said performance, sorry. And once again, thanks for the invaluable assistance, Phil. Made my day!
_________________________
Jim Wells
Tallahassee, FL

www.pureplatinumband.com

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#2540088 - 10/31/13 09:18 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Fábio Sena]
shambler Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 22
It's a nice minimalistic looking board, going for a surf now to learn more.

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#2540110 - 10/31/13 09:57 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Bad Mister]
MoodyBluesKeys Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 2368
Loc: eastern North Carolina
Phil - Welcome to the forum! Motifator probably keeps you busy, but you are welcome to come back here anytime.
_________________________
Howard Grand; Hamm SK1-73; Kurz PC2 PC2X PC3 PC3X PC361;
JBL EONG2 EV SXA100+ QSC K10; HP DAW IBM DAW;
Epi LP guit & 5s bass Blues Jr & Trace amp 2x10,1x15
web: http://www.promlancomp.com Jim

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#2540122 - 10/31/13 10:27 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Stokely Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 522
Loc: Florida
Apparently the nearby Sam Ash has had one for a week and it's still in the box (according to the farther-away Sam Ash, who I called to see if *they* had one). Guitar Center also didn't have one last I looked. Orlando sucks as far as trying out new keyboards....it's bad enough you can't see the latest Yamaha--Kawai or most Kurzweils/Nords, forget it.

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#2540187 - 10/31/13 02:16 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Bad Mister]
NickyP Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 6
Thanks Phil! Your post really helps to clarify the CP4's programming architecture. I'm thinking that the CP4 is even more customizable, powerful and awesome than I'd hoped.

FedEx is delivering mine this Saturday morning. I'm gigging with it on Saturday night. I'm livin' the dream.

Thanks again for all of the info on the Motifator site as well. cool

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#2540276 - 11/01/13 12:39 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: NickyP]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Thanks for the recent posts, it really clears up some of the confusion for me. Wish the manual was better in this regard.

Is there a way to get the mod wheel to control the tremolo depth on the Wurly preamp? I've tried assigning EffA (+) to no avail
_________________________
www.dazzjazz.com

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#2540434 - 11/01/13 12:09 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
MikeT156 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 7668
Loc: Central PA, USA
I haven't heard anyone comment on the fact that if you switch from one sound to another, the first sound cuts off! Not Good!

What about the screen size? It small and it would probably be difficult to see in a dark night club. I realize Yamaha cannot put a large color screen on an instrument without raising the price.

I am assuming that all the wonderful acoustic piano sounds, if used with the correct pedal, support half pedaling.


Answers and opinions welcome!


Cheers!


Mike T.
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. PA equipment too!

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#2540437 - 11/01/13 12:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MikeT156]
steadyb Offline
Go Lakers!!!
10k Club

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 10945
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, UNITED STATES
If only there were a review from a reliable and trusted source...




But where? Where could one go to find such a review? confused confused confused idea

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#2540442 - 11/01/13 12:20 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: steadyb]
MikeT156 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 7668
Loc: Central PA, USA
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. PA equipment too!

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#2540453 - 11/01/13 12:47 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MikeT156]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
Moderator
10k Club

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 16867
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: MikeT156
What about the screen size? It small and it would probably be difficult to see in a dark night club.

Not at all. it's quite well illuminated...

Quote:
I am assuming that all the wonderful acoustic piano sounds, if used with the correct pedal, support half pedaling.

Yep. It comes with the correct pedal, too (FC3).

dB
_________________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

www.davidbryce.net

snax

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#2540456 - 11/01/13 12:58 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
MikeT156 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 7668
Loc: Central PA, USA
Hi Dave:

I read your excellent and thorough review of the CP4. This does sound like the best Piano KB Yamaha has ever made, of the portable variety.

The only negative remaining is the fact that the original sound does not sustain while selecting the next sound. Not good.

Otherwise, I don't believe you can ask for a better instrument at the price. $2199 Street.


Cheers!


Mike T.
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. PA equipment too!

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#2540457 - 11/01/13 01:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MikeT156]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 16867
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Thanks, Mike! wave

dB
_________________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

www.davidbryce.net

snax

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#2540459 - 11/01/13 01:01 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
Dave Ferris Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I just wish there was a way to use this Roland sustain pedal with it.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/D...oCFUThQgod_VAA6

I've been using the DP-10 the past 8 months or so on the NP2 and not once have I had the dreaded pedal creep.

I used to always get that pedal slide with FC3 with the CP5 & CP300 on certain type of floors. Would drive me insane !! cry

Wondering if there's something in the menu to change the polarity...+/- .
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2540463 - 11/01/13 01:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
MikeT156 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 7668
Loc: Central PA, USA
Dave

The easiest and cheapest way to stop pedal creep is to buy an indoor-outdoor door entrance mat at a mass marketer. Those floor mats can be used on hardwood floors and not slip. The top surface of the mat is a commercial carpet grade and the pedal will not move.

$10 bucks at Walmart and "other fine retailers"


Cheers!


Mike T.


_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. PA equipment too!

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#2540465 - 11/01/13 01:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Bad Mister]
davedoerfler Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 1328
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Bad Mister
Phil Clendeninn here, Yamaha product guy... There is some confusion about the VOICE architecture of the new CP4 Stage. It would help if you knew there is no VOICE mode. When I say that I'm referring to a separate USER VOICE bank, like you might find in a synth, like the Motif-series. Edits made to any program are stored in a PERFORMANCE.

You are always editing a PERFORMANCE. The concept of this Stage Piano is that each Program (called a PERFORMANCE) sets up both the internal engine (3 PARTS: Main, Layer, Split) and any external devices (via 4 Zones)... such that when you recall a PERFORMANCE you are set for everything you need to do. The Layer and Split Voices can be "in waiting"... setup, but not active.

When you want to start programming "from scratch" - this entails [SHIFT] + [ENTER], referred to as a QUICK RESET. This is your INITIALIZED PERFORMANCE if you will. You are working in an EDIT BUFFER - and nothing is harmed or permanently changed until you target a PERFORMANCE location to STORE your program.

When you select a VOICE for one of the three internal PARTS it is recalled with certain parameters that make it work. If you do not start with the QUICK RESET, you may find that you have inherited some parameters. This can be understood when you realize that a VOICE includes its INSERTION EFFECTS but does not include the SYSTEM EFFECTS. Here's how that happens:

The INSERTION EFFECTS are apart of the Voice and automatically come along when you select a VOICE for the MAIN, LAYER or SPLIT PART. Insertion Effects are like a musicians personal effects. They use them alone
The SYSTEM EFFECTS are the effects that behave like those on a mixer (SEND/RETURN scheme)... all parts have access to these via a system similar to AUXILIARY SENDS on a mixer.

The acoustic piano might have a DAMPER RESONANCE as one of its INSERTION EFFECTS (this recreates the soundboard resonance and is linked to the Sustain pedal). The soundboard is very much apart of the acoustic piano emulating its internal reverberation system. It is the personal effect belonging to the acoustic piano.

The SYSTEM EFFECT might be a REVERB HALL (this recreate the outer environment - the room acoustics) not really apart of the piano Voice itself. But apart of the 'mixer' that the three PARTS are connected to.

So if three musicians enter the studio, they each can bring their own two INSERTION EFFECTS and each has its own Volume (called its "GAIN")... they each have a channel on the studio's MIXER...with Volume parameter (Fader) and SEND amounts to the two SYSTEM Effects (they all share the System Effect but each has its own SEND amount control). The System Effects belong to the studio. If you swap Voices for a PART, the new Voice will come with its own two INSERTION EFFECTS but according to the PART (or channel of the MIXER) you place it will mean that it inherits the volume, pan position, System Effect Send amount, etc., that are functions of the mixer. Same as if you plugged a new instrument into a mixer channel that was previously setup for a different instrument.

When you recall any of the four hundred Voices in the CP4 STAGE, you can edit anything about them, change the INSERTION EFFECT to whatever you want... but you don't store it to a USER VOICE, you store it to a PERFORMANCE. The PERFORMANCES are in USER memory, please, please, please re-write them to your requirements. The Factory placed the ones you find - just as suggestions.

For more info on the CP4 Stage Voice architecture, I placed a more complete explanation over on Motifator.com in the BadMister's Blog area.
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/cp4_stage
Hope that helps.


Phil Clendeninn in the house! wave Excellent.
_________________________
Pianos are like circus elephants. They a lot of fun to play with, but they're big, heavy, and require a lot of attention. wmp


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#2540472 - 11/01/13 01:25 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: davedoerfler]
MikeT156 Offline
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Yep, if you want the best man for hands on use of Yamaha anything, Phil's the man. He helped me immensely when I was pulling what's left of my hair out trying to operate my (then) new Motif ES8. If not for his help, I might have done something rash with that KB!


Cheers!



Mike T,


Edited by MikeT156 (11/01/13 01:27 PM)
_________________________
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#2540482 - 11/01/13 01:45 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: davedoerfler]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Phil Clendeninn in the house! wave Excellent.

Excellent indeed... cool wave

dB
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#2540638 - 11/02/13 07:41 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
orangefunk Offline
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Just ordered mine! Thanks to all for the informative reviews. grin

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#2540653 - 11/02/13 08:57 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
timwat Offline
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Mine arrived a couple days ago. Suffice to say all the positive things said in this thread are right on the money. Much more satisfying playing experience than any other option I demo'd.
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#2540672 - 11/02/13 10:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
MikeT156 Offline
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Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Just ordered mine! Thanks to all for the informative reviews.


Neil, be sure to post your thoughts on not only the sounds, but the UI, always Yamaha's nemesis.


Cheers!


Mike T.
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. PA equipment too!

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#2540675 - 11/02/13 10:15 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Phil Clendeninn in the house! wave Excellent.

Excellent indeed... cool wave

dB


thu I'll 'third' that. Great to see Phil here..
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#2540680 - 11/02/13 10:31 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MikeT156]
orangefunk Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeT156
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Just ordered mine! Thanks to all for the informative reviews.


Neil, be sure to post your thoughts on not only the sounds, but the UI, always Yamaha's nemesis.


Cheers!


Mike T.


Sure will Mike. I don't know why they didn't make a nicer display to be honest... but I guess every cent helps keep the cost down. I literally could not use the CP1 and CP5 when I went into the stores... did not have a clue how to even go through the patches... thats a bad sign.... looks like the CP4 is a reaction to that... so I have high hopes.

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#2540683 - 11/02/13 10:47 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
MikeT156 Offline
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Neil:

I did mention the small display in one of my previous posts. Dave Bryce posted that the screen is fine, easy to read.

I would guess you are correct about a small screen (mono to boot) was put on the CP4 to keep cost down.

Maybe the screen is not that much of a factor with commonly used processes with the CP4. You have owned a lot of different KB's and are an experienced pro that has a lot of gig experience. How a new KB's UI and screen handle different lighting situations in various venues is a lot different than using it at home.

We know it sounds great, but a gigging musician puts different demands on a board than in a studio environment.


Cheers!


Mike T.
_________________________
Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suit case 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Oberheim DMX, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. PA equipment too!

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#2540684 - 11/02/13 10:55 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
agitato Offline
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Dave, how realistic/authentic are the clavinet sounds?

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#2540695 - 11/02/13 12:21 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MikeT156]
orangefunk Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeT156

You have owned a lot of different KB's and are an experienced pro that has a lot of gig experience.


LOL... thanks for that... I am almost tempted to use that as a tagline. I just consider myself an enthusiastic amateur who just enjoys playing but I am grateful for the props! thu

Will let you know my thoughts on the piano once it arrives.... grin

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#2540715 - 11/02/13 01:09 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: MikeT156]
keyguy Offline
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Registered: 01/26/05
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Originally Posted By: MikeT156
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Just ordered mine! Thanks to all for the informative reviews.


Neil, be sure to post your thoughts on not only the sounds, but the UI, always Yamaha's nemesis.


I already have mine and share you thoughts regarding the UI. I can tell you it is very easy to use "on the fly", unlike any other Yamaha I have ever owned.Just about everything has a push button. Big improvement.


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#2541062 - 11/04/13 08:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
orangefunk Offline
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I just got a note to say my order is not expected to ship until December as they are not in the country yet... damn....

At least I won't be checking the mailbox every 5 mins for the pickup slip... at least not for a few more weeks...:D

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#2541069 - 11/04/13 08:49 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: agitato]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: agitato
Dave, how realistic/authentic are the clavinet sounds?

Pretty great, actually. Nice variety, too - mono, stereo, full, thin, mute, chorus, wah...

dB
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#2541109 - 11/04/13 11:15 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: agitato
Dave, how realistic/authentic are the clavinet sounds?

Pretty great, actually. Nice variety, too - mono, stereo, full, thin, mute, chorus, wah...


Really? Based on my quick in-store demo, I found them to be one of the weaker points. I wasn't impressed with the realism, plus they suffered from the typical rompler problem of responding too slow on staccato notes -- you can't get them short enough for those quick snaps and pops. As always, YMMV...

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#2541121 - 11/04/13 11:36 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
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I also feel that the Clavinets are pretty weak and suspect that Yamaha haven't updated the samples since my old P200. I did however, spend some time and reprogrammed the wah clav patch. I reduced the range of frequencies in which the auto-wah operated. It sounds much better, especially when I added some key off noise. I also changed the amp sim to a fender twin with just a touch of overdrive.

At least it's now useable!! If I get a chance I'll post a demo of it.


Edited by dazzjazz (11/04/13 11:43 AM)
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#2541128 - 11/04/13 11:42 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
dazzjazz Offline
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While the UI is better than other Yamaha's, it's still a bit weird I'm sorry to say.
I now understand the difference between regular voice mode and performance mode. I'm not sure why it needs to be so cryptic.

The other night on the gig I switched between voice mode and performance mode, and a really strange thing happened - the samples for a Rhodes patch we're replaced by acoustic piano. I fixed it by selecting another sound then going back to the one I originally wanted. Very, very weird.

Also, the flashing red light of performance direct select is really annoying! is this really necessary? I hope Yamaha can change this with a firmware update.
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#2541152 - 11/04/13 12:54 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
bryanstern Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 65
Been following this thread and considering purchasing a CP4 and have a couple questions for you guys who have the CP4.

You are all giving, by and large, very good reviews to the CP4. But, is it a really great keyboard? Do you absolutely love it? On a scale of 1-10, how do you rate it and why.

I am using a Casio PX-5S and only want the CP4 if it is a significant upgrade on AP's, EP's.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

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#2541272 - 11/04/13 06:50 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
Based on my quick in-store demo, I found them to be one of the weaker points.

Hmmm. The organs were the bank I felt was the least impressive of the electro mechanical set...but then again, I usually have a hard time connecting with organs on a hammer action keybed.

Quote:
I wasn't impressed with the realism, plus they suffered from the typical rompler problem of responding too slow on staccato notes -- you can't get them short enough for those quick snaps and pops. As always, YMMV...

Well, yeah...but as you pointed out - what ROMpler doesn't suffer from that? Same with organs, for that matter.... idk

...and I still think they're quite playable....but then again, as you say - YMMV. That's why there's blondes, brunettes and redheads. grin

Brother Dazz - you really found the ones out of the box unusable? That's pretty strong....They didn't kill me like the APs and EPs....but I didn't have a problem playing on them.

dB
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#2541307 - 11/04/13 10:01 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
dazzjazz Offline
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Not unusable but definitely not up to the very high standard of the APs and EPs. What I've edited sounds a lot more like a D6. Yamaha could have spent a couple of days sampling a good D6 instead of what I strongly suspect is recycled samples. No matter, it's a great stage piano.
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#2541323 - 11/05/13 01:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Posts: 1287
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Well, yeah...but as you pointed out - what ROMpler doesn't suffer from that?


Off the top of my head: the SK-1, Krome, VR-09, SV-1, and Nord Electro/Stage/Piano all do a much better job with that, and those are just the ones I can speak of from recent personal experience. It's certainly not a deal-breaker, since I wouldn't be trying to play any kind of "serious" Clav from a weighted board anyway. But I stand by being surprised and disappointed that Yamaha would be that far behind the curve on a longstanding problem, with a pretty essential b&b sound, that has been addressed and solved by others.

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#2541362 - 11/05/13 06:39 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Dazz, you said had to change the wah and amp sim to get it to sound "right" - not sure what that has to do with the sample set...?

...and brother Funk - I thought they snapped and popped just fine...but then again, I don't have a D6 to compare them to, and admittedly have never owned one...so maybe it's just my inexperience with the real thing talking here....and, of course, adjectives and musical instruments can be so subjective... grin

Re: updating samples - whether they did or not, I have no idea...but I'd figure a clav sample set (especially the all-important attack segment) would be pretty short, so I'm not sure what a bigger sample (I assume that's what you're after) would achieve...? Seems to me that getting the clav sound right is more about programming than sampling.

FWIW, right now, I use my Electro and PC3 both for clav live. Each has a different sound, and I like them both just fine. I do tend to lean on the Electro more because of the wider variety of filter and pickup options it presents...but the PC3 has the Superstition clav sound down. thu

dB
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snax

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#2541373 - 11/05/13 07:07 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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I'm guessing the CP4 has the Motif Clavs? I have to agree with FunkKeyStuff, they're weak. But I also wouldn't want to play Clavs from the CP4's action. And I also don't expect great Clavs from a stage piano.

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#2541408 - 11/05/13 10:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
J Graul Offline
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Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 128
Loc: Louisville, KY
I doubt I will get into any category besides the APs and EPs. I'll go to my PC361 for all other sounds.

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#2541409 - 11/05/13 10:18 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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I guess the bottom line is that you guys are more particular than I am when it comes to clav sounds. If I had to play the CP4 (or MOTIF) clavs during a gig, I'd be fine with that...heck, I was happy with the Alesis QS Clavitube patch for a long time. I still use it in the studio here and there....

Originally Posted By: D-Bon
I also wouldn't want to play Clavs from the CP4's action. And I also don't expect great Clavs from a stage piano.

Exactly. Same with the organ sounds....

...although I do really like playing big fat synth brass sounds and strings on weighted keys. Go figure.... idk

dB
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snax

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#2541451 - 11/05/13 12:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
D-Bon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
...although I do really like playing big fat synth brass sounds and strings on weighted keys. Go figure.... idk

Do you feel like you get better articulation with weighted keys? Or is it just the enjoyment of the physical/"dig in" factor?

In ELP(owell)'s "Touch And Go" video, I think Keith plays all the synth and string parts on weighted boards. Those sounds have balls... Makes sense to me! thu Clavs, not so much. wink

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#2541461 - 11/05/13 12:47 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Sam Mullins Offline
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Registered: 08/21/07
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Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
...although I do really like playing big fat synth brass sounds and strings on weighted keys. Go figure.... idk

Do you feel like you get better articulation with weighted keys? Or is it just the enjoyment of the physical/"dig in" factor?

In ELP(owell)'s "Touch And Go" video, I think Keith plays all the synth and string parts on weighted boards. Those sounds have balls... Makes sense to me! thu Clavs, not so much. wink


I prefer to use weighted keyboards on some non-keyboard sounds; usually sounds that have some "thunk" that is dependent on velocity, e.g. Acoustic bass. I also find that I have better control over dynamic range (particularly in the softer range) with a weighted keyboard.
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#2541482 - 11/05/13 01:40 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Sam Mullins]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Perhaps I haven't articulated my thoughts clearly.

I think the factory Clav patches in the CP4 are substandard but yes you can use them. Do I think they sound anything like the D6 I used to own? Not at all. That's why in my first comment I said they sounded like a harpsichord. I was able to edit wah and amp sim parameters to get the sound closer to what I think it should sound like. Having owned Yamaha digital pianos for over a decade now (P200, CP33) I feel somewhat qualified to critique the sounds as I've used these boards a lot. The sample set sounds exactly like what I remember from these boards, so I am disappointed that Yamaha neglected to update them. However it's not that big a deal for me. I bought this primarily for APs and EPs and this board is absolutely stellar in that regard, as I've already said. I also posted a demo of me playing the CFX sample as I found it particularly inspiring and wanted to share that.

Perhaps I'm wrong Dave but I feel like you're trying to shut down any less than positive views. I've already written so many positive points about the CP4, for the benefits of all forum members. Would I recommend others buy one? Hell yes - the bang for buck factor is enormous. Sure I've written about some UI anomalies too, but isn't that what Internet forums are all about?


Edited by dazzjazz (11/05/13 01:43 PM)
Edit Reason: Additional thoughts
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#2541487 - 11/05/13 01:58 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
copajaus Offline
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Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 6
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Hi everyone,

- I have been looking at changing my Nord Piano 2 HA88 and I was just wondering if anyone had a chance to play on both instruments at this point in time and if possible give me the good and bad point of the CP4 versus the NP2.

- I am in Sydney, Australia, does anyone knows where I can try a Yamaha CP4 right now ...?

A few words about me, I play mainly at home (Eastern Suburbs of Sydney), jazz/latin, some pop/rock/new age but I am not classically trained (Learned organ in the 70's for a few years and 6 month of Piano end of the 60's...!!!)
I have been back into keyboards since early 90's and I have a little studio setup at home. I took a few short courses in keyboard and Jazz improvisation at the Conservatorium of music in Sydney in 2011 and that's about it.
I find the action on the NP2 to be slightly on the light side the KRONOS is OK but it is not really a piano as such. At one stage I owned a Roland RD700GX and I found the action to be a little bit too hard for me.
We own a Kawai K3 as well but I don't play much on that instrument, my kid does...!!!

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Cheers.
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#2541493 - 11/05/13 02:18 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: copajaus]
Joe Muscara Online   content
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Originally Posted By: copajaus
- I am in Sydney, Australia, does anyone knows where I can try a Yamaha CP4 right now ...?
The guy directly above you is in Sydney. Maybe he can help? idk

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#2541494 - 11/05/13 02:19 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Joe Muscara Online   content
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Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
Perhaps I'm wrong Dave but I feel like you're trying to shut down any less than positive views.
dB? No way. He's just discussing differing opinions.

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#2541496 - 11/05/13 02:22 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Joe Muscara]
dazzjazz Offline
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Cool. I just wanted to check.
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#2541499 - 11/05/13 02:40 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
...although I do really like playing big fat synth brass sounds and strings on weighted keys. Go figure.... idk

Do you feel like you get better articulation with weighted keys? Or is it just the enjoyment of the physical/"dig in" factor?

Good question!

There's elements of both....but I think it's more the latter on the synth brass, and the former on the synth strings, if that makes sense.

dB
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snax

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#2541500 - 11/05/13 02:43 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Joe Muscara]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
Perhaps I'm wrong Dave but I feel like you're trying to shut down any less than positive views.
dB? No way. He's just discussing differing opinions.

Joe's right. I wouldn't be picking on the organs if I was trying to shut down less than positive views....and I called out a few other things that I didn't love in my review.

As I said earlier - I'm guessing I'm just more used to ROMpler clavs because of my lack of experience with the real thing. The fact that you're gauging it against the D6 you used to own kinda confirms that - as I also mentioned, I've never owned one. idk

dB
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#2541502 - 11/05/13 03:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
dazzjazz Offline
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Coolness! I appreciate this forum and the people who hang out here.
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#2541508 - 11/05/13 04:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
D-Bon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
There's elements of both....but I think it's more the latter on the synth brass, and the former on the synth strings, if that makes sense.

Yep.

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#2541514 - 11/05/13 06:19 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
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Had my cp4 for two weeks now and my first gig with it Friday, a duo of keys and vocals at a private party. Played it through a pair of k8s and thought it sounded fine and was much easier to carry in and out than my cp5. I used a grand total of three sounds in the four hour (with breaks) gig: the first cfx piano, a pad and the excellent acoustic bass sound. That is a killer bass sound. I am very happy.





However: while the Rhodes and other eps good really good this is not a motif. The brass sounds ok but what happened to the sweet flute patch that was my go to sound for these kinds of gigs. Oh well. I still really like it, let's see how it does this holiday season

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#2541592 - 11/06/13 09:03 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moon Zero Two]
LX88 Offline
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I wouldn't expect that this would be a Motif.

For the people who have these, how do you like the EP's and organ sounds?

I don't have high expectations for the organ, as Yamaha always seems to downplay their importance. It's too bad you can't get a reasonably good clone engine from a board at this price in ( almost) 2014.

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#2541594 - 11/06/13 09:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
tonysounds Offline
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You can: Nord Electro. Hammond SK1.
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#2541598 - 11/06/13 09:10 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: tonysounds]
Aidan Offline
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Organ sounds are not what this board is about. It's a digital piano, first and foremost. The Electro and SK1 are totally different creatures with different emphasis.
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#2541635 - 11/06/13 11:03 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
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What I am saying is.... out of 300 or so user sounds, can't we get a couple of usable organ patches??

I had a P-200 awhile back, and the organ was kind of neat. You could program drawbars and percussion. It was actually fairly useful as a lower manual type thing. The leslie sim was fairly cool too. Not phasey, just kind of nice.

I used it a lot when I had the P-200.

I hope I don't sound bitchy, as I am very happy that Yamaha has given us the AP's and EP's in a reasonable weight. I am looking forward to hearing it

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#2541640 - 11/06/13 11:18 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: LX88
What I am saying is.... out of 300 or so user sounds, can't we get a couple of usable organ patches??

There are 32 organ programs in the CP4. Some of them are certainly usable if you don't carry a dedicated organ keyboard and don't mind not having things like drawbars and other organ-based real time controls.

It's a bit odd playing them on a wooden graded hammer action keybed, of course....but that's to be expected with any weighted hammer action 88.

dB
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#2541641 - 11/06/13 11:19 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
timwat Offline
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LX88 - I've got a CP4, will be gigging it every night this weekend (Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun). I may be less discriminating than others here, but I don't find all the organ patches "unusable". I would never mistake it for a clone, and wouldn't think about using it for an exposed role. But for that "one" request to sit an organ in the back of a mix, yeah, there's one or two that might work - and of course if anyone was going to go overkill and Vent it, well, there you go.

But it does sound a little malcontent to call out the organ sounds on a digital piano, especially since the calling card on this one is "CP5 pianos at 30 lbs.". I get where you're coming from, but I was looking for a piano-only solution and I'm delighted with the CP4 so far.

FWIW, I find the UI intuitive and cake. I haven't even looked at the additional documentation (3 more manuals) on the CD. The acoustic bass patch in the splits is freaking lovely. Enough AP versions to work in just about any room, with any amplification. EPs seem to be intelligently sorted to add more bell to taste. I needed to dial down the default reverb preset a bit to get it out of the gymnasium, but that was quick, easy and painless. Also, I've never owned a real clavinet, but I find my only comparison (my Kronos) kills the CP4 in that regard. As well it probably should. But again, I don't personally ever see me using the CP4 for clavinet.

Seeing that post that the CP4 is "always" in Performance Mode was really, really helpful.

Tim
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#2541645 - 11/06/13 11:40 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
Stokely Offline
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Loc: Florida
Well, neither Sam Ash or Guitar Center near me have a CP4, and the salespeople had never heard of it. And stores wonder why people buy online.

This is Orlando, which while not humongous is an actual city. I guess this board is somewhat of a niche thing.

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#2541647 - 11/06/13 11:41 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
mate_stubb Online   content
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If you are too chintzy to carry an organ, you shouldn't be disappointed that a piano doesn't sound like one.
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#2541652 - 11/06/13 11:53 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Stokely]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stokely
Well, neither Sam Ash or Guitar Center near me have a CP4, and the salespeople had never heard of it. And stores wonder why people buy online.

This is Orlando, which while not humongous is an actual city. I guess this board is somewhat of a niche thing.


I think the real niche thing is KB players who stay up to date on product. This forum takes it seriously - sometimes WAY too seriously ("Jane, you ignorant slut...") - but most KB players I run across on gigs or in town? Totally, blissfully unaware that anything exists besides a Motif or Electro through a KC300.

Don't you guys find that as well?
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#2541654 - 11/06/13 11:59 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
FJR Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: Stokely
Well, neither Sam Ash or Guitar Center near me have a CP4, and the salespeople had never heard of it. And stores wonder why people buy online.

This is Orlando, which while not humongous is an actual city. I guess this board is somewhat of a niche thing.


I think the real niche thing is KB players who stay up to date on product. This forum takes it seriously - sometimes WAY too seriously ("Jane, you ignorant slut...") - but most KB players I run across on gigs or in town? Totally, blissfully unaware that anything exists besides a Motif or Electro through a KC300.

Don't you guys find that as well?


thu

One keyboard player at a festival this summer, was complimenting me on the sound of my motif, and was asking all sorts of questions about it (like where can you buy one?)?? idk

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#2541658 - 11/06/13 12:02 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Stokely]
BradD Offline
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You're not alone. I asked the guys at the local GC if they would be getting one in and the genius working there said "we find that guys are moving away from stage pianos and using more workstations these days." That's funny because my experience is that people are largely moving away from workstations, but having an intelligent conversation with anyone who works at GC is an unlikely proposition at best.
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#2541673 - 11/06/13 12:35 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: BradD]
Stokely Offline
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My favorite was the Sam Ash sales guy who handled the stage/home piano section who "corrected" me when I asked about the CP4: "Roland has far better action than any Yamaha" *points at a bunch of Roland digital pianos*. Rather than point out he's talking about a very subjective thing, I responded with "Well, I did like the Rd 700NX that I tried at a different store." He had never heard of the 700NX.

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#2541687 - 11/06/13 02:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Stokely]
orangefunk Offline
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Does the CP4 have aftertouch? I always liked using aftertouch for vibrato on double bass splits... not a deal-breaker for sure but just asking... grin

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#2541691 - 11/06/13 02:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
SteinwayB Offline
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Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 1
I spent a couple hours at a Guitar Center last week playing the CP 4. I own the original Nord piano and am very familiar with its sound. I compared the CP 4 with a Nord
Electra loaded with the large Steinway sound which is my preferred sound. I controlled the Electra via midi from the CP 4 keyboard. I have been playing digital pianos since the Ensoniq mirage/ESQ1 era including Kurzweil K1000, Gigasampler PMI Bosendorfer, Kawai MP 9000, Ivory 1, Ivory 2, and currently Nord piano. There clearly has been an evolution in sound but I still find even the best digital piano to be "fingernails on a chalk board". Having said that, I definitely found the acoustic pianos on the CP4 to be superior to the Nord piano but not by a huge margin. The Rhoades sound on CP 4 was excellent, at least as good as the Nord, and the clavinet sounds were not quite as good as the Nord. I found the synthesizer sounds to be quite mediocre but that's to be expected on a stage piano. The sampled bass was very nice, but not nearly as good as Larry Seyer Giga bass. So the bottom line is that the CP 4 piano sounds are better (more realistic and playable) than the Nord piano, and I would not hesitate to buy the CP4 now if I didn't already own the Nord, but the AP sounds are not a jaw dropping OMG Holey Grail improvement. I hope this helps.

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#2541694 - 11/06/13 02:21 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: SteinwayB]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
Glad to see Timwat agrees - I love the acoustic bass sound in this. I think the piano sounds very good and it has a couple of nice layered pads. I find the UI easy enough - the transpose buttons got a work out at the gig, so did the eq sliders. I am never going to be a power user and won't be using anything beyond the EPs at jams or on gigs, so I haven't tried out the organs or clavs or guitars, but I don't need them.

All in all I would say I am set for while in the stage piano department. Now I can spend more time at home messing with my Kronos...

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#2541698 - 11/06/13 02:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Does the CP4 have aftertouch? I always liked using aftertouch for vibrato on double bass splits... not a deal-breaker for sure but just asking... grin


I don't think so. Playing the upright bass in the LH, I find myself instinctively digging in to get some vibrato...but alas....

Yeah Moon Zero Two - that sucker just sits soooo nice, not too boomy, not too shrill or fake...just enough "finger" noise...

I am not a big fan of the default string sound they layer in the factory performances, am fiddling with the "atmosphere" pad and some of those other pads instead.
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#2541704 - 11/06/13 02:55 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
LX88 Offline
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Nice to hear a good report on the Rhodes. That is one of the things I was hoping for - good EP's from a Yamaha under 40 lbs, instead of lugging around an 88 Motif, CP-5 or S90 etc.

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#2541710 - 11/06/13 03:22 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
D-Bon Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
I think the real niche thing is KB players who stay up to date on product digital pianos and clonewheel organs. This forum takes it seriously - sometimes WAY too seriously ("Jane, you ignorant slut...") - but most KB players I run across on gigs or in town? Totally, blissfully unaware that anything exists besides a Motif or Electro through a KC300.

Don't you guys find that as well?

"Fixed" because I think a distinction needs to be made. I find that there are a LOT fewer people current with digital pianos and clonewheel organs than synths and workstations.

With regard to bitching and moaning about clueless/difficult salespeople and not being able to find new products in stores, I think it's worth it to order something online, try it, and if you don't like it, return it or sell it on Craigslist or eBay. Whatever fees you incur are preferable to the hassle we've all endured.

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#2541731 - 11/06/13 04:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
mate_stubb Online   content
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Originally Posted By: timwat

I think the real niche thing is KB players who stay up to date on product. This forum takes it seriously - sometimes WAY too seriously


I'd disagree. This is the premier forum on the webz for the gigging keyboardist IMO. Who will take it seriously if not us?
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#2541739 - 11/06/13 04:40 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: mate_stubb]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate_stubb
Originally Posted By: timwat

I think the real niche thing is KB players who stay up to date on product. This forum takes it seriously - sometimes WAY too seriously


I'd disagree. This is the premier forum on the webz for the gigging keyboardist IMO. Who will take it seriously if not us?

What Moe said.

dB
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#2541747 - 11/06/13 05:07 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
LX88 Offline
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As far as being to too chintzy ( gee... thanks) to carry an organ it's not so much that as much as there is not enough room on some stages, or space in certain small studios etc. to carry multiple boards. Even in my house there is generally not enough room for two boards also.

But I figure, if you are going to put 32 different sounds in there, at least some of them might be usable in situations where one board is all there is room for.

If people didn't use "pianos" to get organ sounds, we would not have boards like the Nord Stage or the various Motifs, which have organs but also have weighted action.

The other reason I am curious about the organ sounds is that in the past I have used a "piano" that also has organ sounds as a lower manual for organ -as I did many times with my Yamaha P-200 back in the day. It doesn't bother me to play bass on weighted action.

Ocassionally too, I like to use a lower manual that is not affected by an expression pedal.

I guess I will find out sooner or later how the organs sound on the CP-4.

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#2541753 - 11/06/13 06:10 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: SteinwayB]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: SteinwayB
I found the synthesizer sounds to be quite mediocre but that's to be expected on a stage piano.

Maybe on the average stage piano...but this one has a four pole low pass resonance filter and ADR envelope per program. I found the synths to be much better than the average stage piano, many of which just have samples of filtered sounds.

dB
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#2541764 - 11/06/13 08:38 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: SteinwayB]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
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Originally Posted By: SteinwayB
I definitely found the acoustic pianos on the CP4 to be superior to the Nord piano but not by a huge margin.

So the bottom line is that the CP 4 piano sounds are better (more realistic and playable) than the Nord piano, and I would not hesitate to buy the CP4 now if I didn't already own the Nord, but the AP sounds are not a jaw dropping OMG Holey Grail improvement. I hope this helps.


I've played the CP4 twice now, maybe an hour and fifteen minutes total. And have used both the NP88 & NP2 for a combined period of time of probably a tad over two years now. Before that I used the CP5 for a good 18 months straight.

I agree a lot with your observations. But while I wasn't able to A-B the sound of the NP2 & CP4, just the fact that the CP4 played so much more fluid and didn't thin on the top end, like unfortunately all the Nord samples do--this was a no-brainer for me as to which would work better in my playing context.

I think if you play triads in a more rock/pop context, the difference isn't so crucial to the player. But in jazz, where you're trying to articulate single note lines--where many of the notes can be at a higher rate of velocity, along with extreme complex fingerings, not to mention all this composed instantly on the fly no less--the action/ response, along with the sound where all the notes are even, is paramount.

A perfect example in this video where you can notice it around the 5:54 and 6:38-6:44 where I go up on a phrase in the higher registers on my solo.


The thing drops out, loses gas, thins out, no balls up there. Consequently I often go to two handed unisons to try and compensate and get a fuller sound. This sh*t has driven me crazy with the Nord the last 2 years !!! cry cry Yamahas are always even in that respect. cool

I can't remember the exact sample I was using but pretty sure it either the XL Fazioli or XL Bright Grand. It's a shame because, yes, it sounds very detailed and realistic in other registers, and for other types of playing it really works great.

But again, the CP4 would be a significant improvement for me no doubt about it.


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/06/13 08:58 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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#2541765 - 11/06/13 08:49 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: mate_stubb]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
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Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: mate_stubb


I'd disagree. This is the premier forum on the webz for the gigging keyboardist IMO. Who will take it seriously if not us?


Just talking about the bouts of nastiness when things have gotten personal with ad hominem, character assassination, etc.
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#2541766 - 11/06/13 09:15 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: SteinwayB
I found the synthesizer sounds to be quite mediocre but that's to be expected on a stage piano.

Maybe on the average stage piano...but this one has a four pole low pass resonance filter and ADR envelope per program. I found the synths to be much better than the average stage piano, many of which just have samples of filtered sounds.

dB


I'm really impressed with the resonant filter too. Given the breadth of the synth tones on this stage piano, you could pretty much be guaranteed of being able to cook up a LOT of very useable patches.
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#2541767 - 11/06/13 09:28 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
1203 Offline
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@Dave Ferris: Great playing!!!

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#2541853 - 11/07/13 09:41 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: 1203]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
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The Roland RD700GX had a pretty nifty filter too.... shame the stock material wasn't up to scratch but the SRX cards had some nice sounds.

Oh yeah... Dave Ferris... the man can make anything sound good grin

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#2541854 - 11/07/13 09:43 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
orangefunk Offline
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Btw. Its interesting about the comparisons with the Nord Stage... I have to confess I love those pianos but share Dave's point about the thinness on top... so if the Yamaha is sounding in that direction, rather than the samples from the old P series pianos, I am going to be as happy as a clam...

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#2541859 - 11/07/13 09:48 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: mate_stubb]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: mate_stubb
Who will take it seriously if not us?

I think the more important question is: does it need to be taken so seriously? At a certain point, debating all the minutiae is

deadhorse


Edited by D-Bon (11/07/13 11:18 AM)
Edit Reason: fixed speling

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#2541861 - 11/07/13 09:56 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
tonysounds Offline
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Funny....when a thread no longer interests me, I quit visiting it.
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#2541864 - 11/07/13 10:19 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Stokely]
Scott Hamlin Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Stokely
Well, neither Sam Ash or Guitar Center near me have a CP4, and the salespeople had never heard of it. And stores wonder why people buy online.

This is Orlando, which while not humongous is an actual city. I guess this board is somewhat of a niche thing.


Hey Stokely - you may want to check out George's - I am pretty sure I saw one there.. can't remember if it was on I-Drive or the one near Winter Park though. I find them to be very helpful and knowledgeable.
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#2541868 - 11/07/13 10:25 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Skinny Offline
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Registered: 05/01/09
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Originally Posted By: D-Bon
I think the more important question is: does it need to be taken so seriously? At a certain point, debating all the minutae is

deadhorse


minutiae
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#2541880 - 11/07/13 10:45 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
Jazz+ Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


I think if you play triads in a more rock/pop context, the difference isn't so crucial to the player. But in jazz, where you're trying to articulate single note lines--where many of the notes can be at a higher rate of velocity, along with extreme complex fingerings, not to mention all this composed instantly on the fly no less--the action/ response, along with the sound where all the notes are even, is paramount.
....
The (Nord) drops out, loses gas, thins out, no balls up there...


That paragraph really sums it up for me for all the DPs I have played. I look forward to a clip of Dave playing a CP4 in a live setting.

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#2541895 - 11/07/13 11:17 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Skinny]
D-Bon Offline
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Skinny
minutiae

Thanks for keeping an eye on the speling, Skiny.

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#2541935 - 11/07/13 12:52 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
Dave Ferris might have a hard time selling that Nord on the Garage Sale if he keeps on telling us how much he hates it.

Generally though a lot of us are trying to find gear that meets our expectations based on something else that we have become very used to hearing.

My issues with digital pianos are somewhat different than Dave's. I find that many of them are hard to amplify, and that the tonal character changes dramatically the louder we are forced to turn them up.

If what you are used to is a late model Steinway acoustic I can imagine that some of these digital pianos are going to appear to be lacking.

It reminds me of the story I heard about ( jazz pianist) Hal Galper dumping his Fender Rhodes into the Hudson River. It might be true because as I recall I read about it in an article that Hal wrote.

I haven't seen or heard a CP4 yet but my hope is that it sets a standard for at least the next 5 years or so, and that it would be adequate for most of us.


Edited by LX88 (11/07/13 01:05 PM)

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#2541940 - 11/07/13 01:18 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
orangefunk Offline
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Originally Posted By: LX88


It reminds me of the story I heard about ( jazz pianist) Hal Galper dumping his Fender Rhodes into the Hudson River. It might be true because as I recall I read about it in an article that Hal wrote.


Yeah it's true. He told me that in an email exchange I had with him years back. I have a two of his LPs from 1971 and 1972. Great fusion in a different direction to most... a few cuts even sound contemporary for today.

He was big on the Rhodes thru Leslie sound... gave up on the Rhodes mainly because he felt he wasn't making his mark like Joe Z, George, Chick and Herbie... and it was making his acoustic piano playing worse...

He did play a Rhodes a few times in the 80s I believe...

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#2541944 - 11/07/13 01:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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Originally Posted By: LX88
Dave Ferris might have a hard time selling that Nord on the Garage Sale if he keeps on telling us how much he hates it.

rolleyes

"...it sounds very detailed and realistic in other registers, and for other types of playing it really works great."

Hardly hate.

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#2541956 - 11/07/13 02:22 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
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I've just come back from a hands-on demo of a CP4 which just arrived at a retailer's the other day.

Everything checks out to my hands & ears with the good stuff & mediocrities previously reported.

However, one disconcerting factor showed up within 30 seconds: That is when you're in split mode, the left side (bass, let's say) doesn't sustain using the sustain pedal. This is a major deal-breaker for me unless it's programmable. I've downloaded and gone through both the Owner's and Reference Manuals, and nowhere can I find where you can edit the function of the sustain pedal to affect BOTH sides of a split.

Most of Yamaha's lower level keyboards have split sustain as a default. They screwed this up with the P200/250 but rectified it with a user-programmable function in the P300.

Can someone verify if you can, or cannot set this up on the CP4?






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#2541968 - 11/07/13 03:53 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drawback]
Suppport Guy Offline
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Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 65
Loc: SoCal
It is absolutely programmable. The parameter is located in the "Receive Switch" page under "Part" edit (last page) and would be the FS parameter (on/off) for the "Split" part.



Edited by Suppport Guy (11/07/13 04:17 PM)

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#2541970 - 11/07/13 04:18 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: LX88
Dave Ferris might have a hard time selling that Nord on the Garage Sale if he keeps on telling us how much he hates it.


I don't think in any of the dozens of posts I've made on both the NP88& NP2 over the last two years have I ever used the word *hate*. rolleyes

If I *hated* it I wouldn't have said:

"I can't remember the exact sample I was using but pretty sure it either the XL Fazioli or XL Bright Grand. It's a shame because,yes, it sounds very detailed and realistic in other registers, and for other types of playing it really works great."

If I really *hated* it I wouldn't still be playing *a Nord piano* after two years. idk

There are many things I *hate*-- pop culture for starters. Almost all of today's drivel that passes for "music'. How about the entire subset of cretins masquerading as "artists" that produce this cr*p !. Nord pianos...nah, not even close. But I digress. grin

Without a doubt I've been very vocal about its shortcomings, specifically with the Fatar action and the fact the samples do thin out in higher registers. And basically the sound is not even. Anyone who comes from a jazz or classical acoustic piano background I think has the same issues with it.

I've used it all this time because I've felt it was the best option with sound/weight/ playability and build quality figured into the equation. Now the CP4 has come on the scene, this is a definite improvement for me.

On the other hand, I can still make plenty of good music with the NP2 and am really in no hurry to let it go. On occasions when I play just acoustic, I've often schlepped the Nord just for the cool rhodes and wurlis. It adds a nice color change and breaks things up sonically.

I realize Clavia is a smaller niche company that doesn't have the resources of a Yamaha. I think Tomas & co. are doing an outstanding job overall in addressing musician's needs within the budget they have to work with for new product releases. I think their acoustic pianos will continually improve as well. They read these forums and I'm pretty sure any new piano samples they develop will take all musician criticisms into consideration. Even though I know that guys like me aren't their target market customer. wink I do however feel they will always be handcuffed using Fatar actions. No matter how good they get their samples to sound, you'll still have to deal with the lower quality action.


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/07/13 10:30 PM)
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2541971 - 11/07/13 04:48 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
LX88 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
My apologies here..... "hate" is my interpretation. I just didn't get the impression you were exactly in love with the Nord either - pointing out flaws in the above video etc.etc. ( and also in the above post regarding the action).

But yeah, there has been mention of the shortcomings a few times.Once again I think people will hear differences depending on what they are listening through.

I have only heard the Nord stuff in shops and a couple times at NAMM and to be honest, I was always confused regarding which sample I should really be hearing.

Sometimes I would hear certain samples and not really care for them but this happens with Yamaha and Roland too. The Nord Stage confuses the hell out of me trying to find the good piano samples.







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#2541979 - 11/07/13 06:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Suppport Guy]
drawback Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 2139
Originally Posted By: drawback
I've just come back from a hands-on demo of a CP4 which just arrived at a retailer's the other day.

Everything checks out to my hands & ears with the good stuff & mediocrities previously reported.

However, one disconcerting factor showed up within 30 seconds: That is when you're in split mode, the left side (bass, let's say) doesn't sustain using the sustain pedal. This is a major deal-breaker for me unless it's programmable. I've downloaded and gone through both the Owner's and Reference Manuals, and nowhere can I find where you can edit the function of the sustain pedal to affect BOTH sides of a split.

Most of Yamaha's lower level keyboards have split sustain as a default. They screwed this up with the P200/250 but rectified it with a user-programmable function in the P300.

Can someone verify if you can, or cannot set this up on the CP4?

Originally Posted By: Suppport Guy
It is absolutely programmable. The parameter is located in the "Receive Switch" page under "Part" edit (last page) and would be the FS parameter (on/off) for the "Split" part.



Thank you!

thu

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#2541992 - 11/07/13 07:52 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Suppport Guy]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Originally Posted By: Suppport Guy
It is absolutely programmable. The parameter is located in the "Receive Switch" page under "Part" edit (last page) and would be the FS parameter (on/off) for the "Split" part.


You beat me to it. I just got home from playing my first gig with my CP4, jazz duo with female vocalist. I was surprised when the pedal didn't work. I eventually found what you described above. The "Receive Switch" was not where I would have logically looked for it, but I was glad to find it. BTW, that acoustic bass patch is killer. I know we can justify anything, but the action on the CP4 is outstanding.
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#2542004 - 11/07/13 08:39 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
I don't get it. I want to have the sustain work on the right hand side of a split not on the bass in the left hand....

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#2542016 - 11/07/13 11:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moon Zero Two]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Well, either way, you're covered, aren't you?
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Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361 | Crumar Mojo

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#2542027 - 11/08/13 01:52 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
thomsurf Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Denmark
Is it loud action, as in does it bottom out and make you wanna turn up the volume to kill the noise? I practice in a small room using either monitors or open headphones and the 'klonking' from my Roland RD300NX is killing me!
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Roland RD800, JBL PRX 612M.

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#2542039 - 11/08/13 04:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: thomsurf]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Not by any means....
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#2542061 - 11/08/13 06:07 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 2714
Loc: arrange window
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


There are many things I *hate*-- pop culture for starters. Almost all of today's drivel that passes for "music'. How about the entire subset of cretins masquerading as "artists" that produce this cr*p !


laugh

thu

A.C.
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#2542076 - 11/08/13 06:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Al Coda]
gingercat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Lancashire, England
Got my CP4 pre-ordered over here in the UK so should have it within the next few weeks. I know it comes with one FC3 foot pedal, but I will ideally want another so I can have both soft and sustain pedals. Am I best getting another FC3 (I'd like to have a matching unit really) or is there a better unit that contains two pedals, whilst still supporting half-damper like the FC3?
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#2542081 - 11/08/13 07:22 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moon Zero Two]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 2139
Originally Posted By: Moon Zero Two
I don't get it. I want to have the sustain work on the right hand side of a split not on the bass in the left hand....



Purely for style. Depending on the situation I'll think of my left hand as a bass and play it as a bassist does, and that's the axis of everything. If you do any stride at all you'll get it.
Pedaling is the key.

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#2542157 - 11/08/13 10:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 4668
The Nord in the Dave Ferris live video, how is it being amplified?
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#2542220 - 11/08/13 04:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Jazz+]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Loc: Glendale, Ca.
For the past two years or so, I've been going into a JMK Audio JM-110 di/pre then to a pair of RCF TT08A hi-def speakers.

I will say though with the acoustical combination of the glass window backdrop and tile floors in this particular coffee shop, I don't think my $3500 system fares all that much better then a pair of KC-350s. But that's probably going a little too far. But yeah, brutal acoustics in this place ! Better designed for drinking coffee and reading a book then playing music .


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/08/13 06:38 PM)
Edit Reason: attempt at comedy removed
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2542251 - 11/08/13 07:26 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
Moon Zero Two Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
At a studio jam, I called ahead and oh yes we have a keyboard amp so I didn't bring my k8. First keyboard amp that said fender twin on it. Ugh. Oh well. The mid range on the cp4 sounds ok at least.

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#2542252 - 11/08/13 07:40 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moon Zero Two]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 1287
Shoulda used a CP80 patch!

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#2542264 - 11/09/13 01:09 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 3142
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Just got home from trio gig. CP4 into two DXR8s.

First of all, the five band EQ is really powerful. Mistakenly started evening with the high eq tapped down a bit (by accident during setting up) and the top octave was invisible. Quickly corrected that and dialed back on reverb. Switched LF setting on DXRs. Used the first CFX performance all evening.

End result - wow - the CP4s action is just so natural-feeling, allowed me to really dig in when called for, play more fluidly and smoothly, just a joy to play. Black/white upgrade from my PX3, which I'd gigged to death.

Last night gigged on a Kawai house upright (was in good condition) for five gorgeous, incredible female singers in San Jose - and it reminded me how a decent acoustic provides so much dynamic range and nuance. The CP4 is a different beast - a digital to be sure - but the best DP I've gigged yet.

Tomorrow gigging the CP4 for my favorite singer I've ever worked with - I'm totally smitten - and this unit makes me feel more confident in stretching out to take risks and say things.
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#2542265 - 11/09/13 01:22 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
Six-string-man Offline
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Registered: 08/06/13
Posts: 827
Loc: U.K.
[quote=



Tomorrow gigging the CP4 for my favorite singer I've ever worked with - I'm totally smitten - and this unit makes me feel more confident in stretching out to take risks and say things. [/quote]

Smitten with the keyboard, or with the singer? smile smile


SSM
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#2542287 - 11/09/13 06:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Six-string-man]
ADino Offline
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Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 1352
Great review...What Yam board is the action for the 4 taken from, or is it a new action? Great u found a board you enjoy. Now I have to try one.

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#2542290 - 11/09/13 06:28 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ADino]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: ADino
Great review...What Yam board is the action for the 4 taken from

If I'm not mistaken, that keybed is used in some of the upper end Clavinovas.

dB
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snax

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#2542309 - 11/09/13 08:08 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Six-string-man]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 3142
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: Six-string-man


Smitten with the keyboard, or with the singer? smile smile


SSM


The singer. The board is just a board.
_________________________
"I'm not just untalented. I'm multi untalented."

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#2542361 - 11/09/13 11:59 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
Six-string-man Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/06/13
Posts: 827
Loc: U.K.
Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: Six-string-man


Smitten with the keyboard, or with the singer? smile smile


SSM


The singer. The board is just a board.



Good for you, go for it.

SSM
_________________________
Occasionally, do something nice for a total stranger. They'll wonder what the hell is going on!

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#2542445 - 11/09/13 05:46 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Six-string-man]
zephonic Offline
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Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 2765
Loc: redondo beach, ca
I finally got to play the CP-4 today at the GC on Pico/Westwood. Nice, I like the action and the acoustics sound good, but why is the headphone output at that weird location?
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#2542456 - 11/09/13 07:55 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: zephonic]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I still like the CP1 as well Z. That thing just had/has a "sound". cool And it was fatter sounding then the CP5. Kicking myself that I didn't jump on an offer from a guy on piano world a few years back. He was asking $2500 for basically a barely used at home CP1. I might have been able to get it for even less had I pushed it. Had the dough at the time but needed some good speakers more as I already had the CP5...
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2542458 - 11/09/13 08:19 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
zephonic Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 2765
Loc: redondo beach, ca
Yeah, the CP1 was different, I liked it much better than the 5 and 4. But price and weight kept it out of my gravitational field.

Sorry, I deleted that from the previous post because I thought it was off-topic.
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"ah-one, ah-two, ah-one, two, three, four..."

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#2542460 - 11/09/13 08:38 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: zephonic]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 1287
Originally Posted By: zephonic
Yeah, the CP1 was different, I liked it much better than the 5 and 4. But price and weight kept it out of my gravitational field.


The fact that it was massive enough to have its own gravitational field kept it out of my gravitational field. wink

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#2542468 - 11/09/13 11:41 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: zephonic]
michielOSX30 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Rijswijk NETHERLANDS
Originally Posted By: zephonic
Yeah, the CP1 was different, I liked it much better than the 5 and 4. But price and weight kept it out of my gravitational field.


Why did you like it better, if I may ask?

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#2542511 - 11/10/13 08:01 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
podmed Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 52
Loc: VA
Need to chime in here....
I am a Rock keyboard player, but our band plays just about everything from "Piano Man," to "Don't Stop Believin" to [ahem] "Roar".
When I started playing with these people, I had a Yamaha CP-300 which (for me) was amazing for Piano. Needed something to cover the other genres. Sold it.
Bought a Nord Piano 2, which did the trick for AP,Eps and occasional Synth stuff.

However, here is where my adventure began:
Tried to use the Piano 2 with a Microkorg on top. Microkeys didn't do it.
Sold both.
Bought a Kronos 73. Keybed to me sucked. Sold it.
Bought an Electro 4 73. Couldn't live without Layering. Sold it.
Bought a Kronos 61 AND a 88-key Weighted Controller. Controller too heavy. Sold it.
Bought a Nord Stage 2 73. Not bad, but no weighted action for Piano. Sold it.
Bought the CP4 - and I'm in Heaven. Weight is lighter than the CP-300 Sherman tank.
I'll use the Kronos 61 on top.
Hopefully this madness is over.
If not - well - you only live once. (or twice if you are 007).
Rock on.



Edited by podmed (11/10/13 08:02 AM)

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#2542527 - 11/10/13 09:13 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: podmed]
Moonglow Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 3485
Loc: Northwest Indiana
Originally Posted By: podmed
Hopefully this madness is over.

That's some good signature material!
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#2542585 - 11/10/13 11:34 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: michielOSX30]
zephonic Offline
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Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 2765
Loc: redondo beach, ca
Originally Posted By: michielOSX30
Originally Posted By: zephonic
Yeah, the CP1 was different, I liked it much better than the 5 and 4. But price and weight kept it out of my gravitational field.


Why did you like it better, if I may ask?


It just felt like an all-around more natural and effortless experience. I tried them in very different circumstances and that may be a factor to consider, too. The CP1 had been set up on a proper stand at the proper height with a proper bench, the CP5 and CP4 not so much.

The action felt better to me on the CP1, and it was easy to adjust the "hammer hardness" which worked really well for me (I like them a little softer). The CP5 was said to have the same action and sound, but it didn't give me the same connection and vibe.

The CP4 sounds better than what I remember of the older models, but the action is a little harder than I prefer.
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"ah-one, ah-two, ah-one, two, three, four..."

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#2542589 - 11/10/13 12:05 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: podmed]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: podmed
Hopefully this madness is over.

You ain't kiddin'. Me, I would've kept the Nord Piano 2 and ditched the microKORG for a small synth with full size keys. Plenty of options.

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#2542590 - 11/10/13 12:06 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moonglow]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Originally Posted By: podmed
Hopefully this madness is over.

That's some good signature material!


Notice though that " If not - well...." followed. The OP's gear timeline looks like a small slice of my gear list from 1979 - 2013 (which is under 'lock and key' - as my family will have me committed should it be released). Looks like podmed, Tony, and I could be triplet children of different mothers.. laugh
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"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2542632 - 11/10/13 03:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3432
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Quads, if you count me in too...!
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Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361 | Crumar Mojo

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#2542699 - 11/10/13 07:49 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Kawai James Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 432
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
You ain't kiddin'. Me, I would've kept the Nord Piano 2 and ditched the microKORG for a small synth with full size keys.


This.
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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#2542705 - 11/10/13 08:33 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Quads, if you count me in too...!


thu Certainly, I think you well qualify for the 'horse traders' sub-group here wink
_________________________
"....But Tonto he was smarter. And one day said, "Kemo sabe: Kiss my ass I bought a boat, I'm going out to sea" - Lyle Lovett

"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2542728 - 11/10/13 11:57 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: podmed]
stoken6 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: podmed
Bought a Nord Piano 2, which did the trick for AP,Eps and occasional Synth stuff.
[...]
Tried to use the Piano 2 with a Microkorg on top. Microkeys didn't do it.
Sold both.
[...]
Bought a Nord Stage 2 73. Not bad, but no weighted action for Piano.


Glad this has a happy ending, but... it sounds like you were happy with the Nord pianos, and the NP action. Why didn't you keep the NP88 and add e.g. a little MOX6 or similar? Or try an NS2/88?

(Most here say the CP4 action beats the NP88 for similar weight, but all those repeated sales and purchases must have cost you?)

Cheers. Mike.

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#2542736 - 11/11/13 02:47 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: stoken6]
podmed Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 52
Loc: VA
Weight was a big issue for me. The Piano 2 and Stage 88 were too heavy.
The CP4 action is what I learned piano on - and now all my chops and tricks "work" again.

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#2542759 - 11/11/13 06:01 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: podmed]
D-Bon Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: podmed
Weight was a big issue for me. The Piano 2 and Stage 88 were too heavy.

The Piano 2 is 40 pounds. The CP4 is 38.5 pounds.

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#2542769 - 11/11/13 06:40 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Stokely Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 522
Loc: Florida
I consider the Kurzweil pc3 (pc361 in my case) the best jack-of-all-trades board I've ever played, especially in the <$1000 used. I still need to dive in to the synth programming but it handles everything for me, and has a decent organ (the achilles heel of most of the competition).

Anyway, I guess if I want to try the CP4 I'll have to buy it and return it. It's crazy that a populated area like Orlando doesn't get one of these in...there's still a couple stores I haven't called but based on past experience if it isn't a Krome or Mox it probably isn't carried around here (an exaggeration but not much of one...)

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#2542779 - 11/11/13 07:02 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
allan_evett Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: podmed
Weight was a big issue for me. The Piano 2 and Stage 88 were too heavy.

The Piano 2 is 40 pounds. The CP4 is 38.5 pounds.


True, but the next sentence does refer to the CP4's great playability. Seems that's where the preference is. I prefer playing piano on my heavily tweaked S90XS to playing piano on my Stage 2, 76; and I suspect that I could 'dig in' more fully on the CP4. The Nord pianos are certainly playable, and can get me through a one keyboard gig. But the Stage 2 works out a lot better as a second tier organ / synth / misc. electro-mechanical sound source.
_________________________
"....But Tonto he was smarter. And one day said, "Kemo sabe: Kiss my ass I bought a boat, I'm going out to sea" - Lyle Lovett

"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2543497 - 11/13/13 08:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
bryanstern Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 65
Just got the CP4 and yes indeed, the keyboard feel and playability are fantastic.
The cheap, utilitarian plastic body falls into the realm of "I don't really care that much" as the experience is with the keyboard is so primary.

I do have a question of CP4 owners. The S6 AP on my CP4 sounds crappy and synthetic, rather than warm, woody and beautiful. I have a few keys that sorta have a little synthetic-sounding buzz when playing this voice. I'd like to know what others experience has been with the S6.

Thanks.

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#2543565 - 11/13/13 11:19 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: bryanstern]
scales Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Daphne, AL
I haven't detected a buzz on mine but I agree with your assessment. I was a bit disappointed with the S6 in terms of "warmth" and "woodiness". But, I haven't taken the time to tweak it either. With a little work I think I can bring out the best in it. I just can't stop playing the CFX long enough to do anything else.

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#2543605 - 11/13/13 02:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: scales]
Pale Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 864
Loc: Croatia, Zagreb
If the S6 sample is the same as in CP5, then yes, I do experience the same buzz. Altough, I think that buzz comes from real piano that's sampled, it sounds like a string buzz to me. It is most noticable when I play left hand bass, there are a few notes there that really have a pronounced buzz.
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Stelzhammer baby grand, Yamaha CP5, Yamaha P120, Fender Rhodes Mark II, Hammond XK1 + leslie 760

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#2543606 - 11/13/13 02:13 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Pale]
Pale Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 864
Loc: Croatia, Zagreb
Forgot to say I actually like that. Gives it a bit of character.
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Stelzhammer baby grand, Yamaha CP5, Yamaha P120, Fender Rhodes Mark II, Hammond XK1 + leslie 760

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#2543617 - 11/13/13 03:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Pale]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Mine arrived this morning. My thoughts so far? Not sure...

I dumped my NP88 for the CP4, and so my reaction is colored by that experience.

Action: much better on the Yamaha. Couldn't say yet whether I prefer it to Roland's PHAIII, but it's close.

AP sounds: nice, but I think the Nord is superior - more detailed. Where is the sympathetic resonance on the Yamaha??? IIRC, even the PX-5S has it, and it does make a difference to the overall emulation and feeling of immersion. Also, the stretching in the bottom octave is very obvious, and somewhat unattractive.

EP sounds: very good, and totally different to the Nord's. Are these actual models or samples of models? Whichever they are, they're very playable and characterful.

Others: good to so-so.

Bottom line: the CP4 is apparently the best Yamaha stage piano, yet. If that's true, the Casio PX-5S represents remarkable value. I'm not saying it's not a nice board - it is - but after owning Nords, I don't know whether it's a keeper for me or not. I need more time on it.

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#2543623 - 11/13/13 04:07 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
bryanstern Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 65
Thanks for S6 feedback. I have both the PX-5S and the CP4 (CP4 arrived yesterday). I love the action on both but the CP4 with its ivory feel keys feels amazing and I definitely prefer the CP4 in this area. It really is perfect to me.

I have several tweaked AP sounds on the PX-5S and (so far) i find the sound more warm, sweet and natural than the CP4. The CFIII is really my favorite on the CP4. The CFX is so dynamic. Not sure how much I'll use it. And S6, disappointedly never).

EP's on the CP4 are really nice and and some are unlike anything I have on the PX-5S or SK1. Some are really useable for me. But, they definitely need some tweaking for my needs if I were to use it on its own on a gig.

If I had to choose one keyboard (PX-5S or CP4), and yes, money counts (I paid $850 for the Casio and $2000 for the CP4), at this point I would choose the Casio.
Wish it didn't look like a toy, but it is definitely not a toy and is a stunning value.

I was playing both keyboards back and forth for hours the last 2 days. Very different instruments. Both have pluses and negatives. But, it really affirmed how much I love the Casio. And the CP4 relationship is to be determined.

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#2543625 - 11/13/13 04:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: bryanstern]
lisome Offline
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Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Maine
Regarding the S6 funny notes - check the D key and neighboring notes two octaves below middle C to see if you hear the resonance. If this is still an issue on the CP4 then I don't know what to think. Yamaha absolutely knows about this and was flooded with complaints when the S70/90XS came out.
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#2543630 - 11/13/13 04:26 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: lisome]
bryanstern Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 65
Will check. Problem is definitely in lower octaves. But over S6 sound is disappointing.

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#2543632 - 11/13/13 04:42 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: lisome]
Nicky Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 487
Loc: LI, NY
FWIW, my short take on the CP4. No love here, action is ok but I didn't really connect with the acoustic piano sounds, especially the newest one. For lower velocity/soft playing there's a weird "note turning on" effect as opposed to subtle tonal shadings. I think for the rock/boogie woogie style Chuck Leavell was playing on the promo video, it works great, but not for jazz or classical. Also the piano's still all suffer from that sameness/sterile factor, with too much sample stretching going on. The rhodes are much more playable as they are modeled, but they don't really sound like a rhodes to me…I personally think the finger connection to sound on the PX5S is much better.


Edited by Nicky (11/13/13 05:27 PM)

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#2543639 - 11/13/13 05:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Nicky]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
I agree with you, Nicky.

I am actually a little surprised. After years of avoiding Yamaha DPs due to perceiving them as sterile and using dated techniques, I bought into the "best yet" marketing and now wonder what the fuss was about. It's competent, but lagging Roland in terms of AP sound technology, IMO. Given how good my little P-105 is for under $600, I was expecting much more from the CP4.

I was prepared to put up with cheap plastic for the weight reduction, better action and improved sounds but, on reflection, feel that I expect a little better for $2k. The Nord is only 1lb or so heavier and is built to withstand the rigors of the road.

My CP4 is going back. I shall await Kawai's expected announcement with interest...

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#2543647 - 11/13/13 05:32 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
My CP4 is going back. I shall await Kawai's expected announcement with interest...


Send it over here, I'll take it off your hands. grin

Interesting viewpoints guys. It is subjective to the player and really how can anyone say....hey whadda ya mean, it's no good ! ? smirk

Again, I've spent little time with it and not in a live playing situation, but I'm fairly certain I'll prefer it over my Nord. It might not be as detailed sonically but it is an even sound with respect to not thinning out out on the top end or losing the low end (with the exception of the Bosendorfer sample). And the improved action goes without saying.

Myself & Roland pianos, for all their "character", have never gotten along live. wink

Kawai I think will always improve, but more for the home player then the gigging guy. Unless something drastically changes in their R&D, the sound just doesn't do it for me.

Granted, haven't played the PX-5, but the Casios for just straight piano aren't my thing at this time.


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/13/13 05:43 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2543648 - 11/13/13 05:48 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I'm fairly certain I'll prefer it over my Nord. It might not be as detailed sonically but it is an even sound with respect to not thinning out out on the top end or losing the low end (with the exception of the Bosendorfer sample). And the improved action goes without saying.


All very valid points, Dave. I'd be really interested to hear how you get on with it live, compared to your old CP5.

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#2543649 - 11/13/13 05:49 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
bryanstern Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 65
Voxpops
I have also decided to return the CP4. But, with all the fuss, I wanted to check it out. I really wanted to love it. Just doesn't have the sound for me. Not with the PX-5S working for me.

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#2543653 - 11/13/13 06:28 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: bryanstern]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Glad to hear the PX is doing it for you, bryanstern.

I, too, really wanted to connect with the CP, but that's life!

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#2543656 - 11/13/13 07:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Kawai I think will always improve, but more for the home player then the gigging guy. Unless something drastically changes in their R&D, the sound just doesn't do it for me.

I've only played the MP6 and the MP10, and I really liked the sound of the MP10. But at 70+ pounds, it was a non-starter as a gigging board.

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#2543660 - 11/13/13 07:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Dave Ferris Offline
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I liked the MP10 as well and was considering it for a moment, even with the weight. But I schlepped my CP5 down to Pierre's Fine Pianos in W. LA and A/B' d the two.

As usual, the CP5 won out for me..
_________________________
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2543673 - 11/13/13 08:57 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
agitato Offline
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Registered: 04/29/10
Posts: 185
Am presently playing a kawai es4. Does anyone think the es7 would be a better upgrade than a cp4, built-in speakers and 10 or so more pounds, notwithstanding?

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#2543811 - 11/14/13 09:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: agitato]
orangefunk Offline
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OK. Some dissenters.... interesting. grin

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person... still... the Nord Stage is almost x2 the price here and I am sure a new model must be in the making...

Hmm... decisions decisions...

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#2543812 - 11/14/13 09:37 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: orangefunk
OK. Some dissenters.... interesting. grin

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person... still... the Nord Stage is almost x2 the price here

The NS2 has tons of other capabilities. The Nord closest to the CP4 would be the Nord Piano 2, i.e. lacking the organ and VA synth functionalities. Though either Nord can do some things the Yamaha can't, and vice versa.

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#2543820 - 11/14/13 10:08 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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I'm not sure what those of you who are disappointed/underwhelmed (voxpops, Nicky, etc.) were expecting. Essentially, the CP4 is a refinement of the Yamaha sound, action, UI, etc. So that's what the term "best yet" refers to, not "best digital piano yet made by any manufacturer ever." You guys have played Yamaha digital pianos enough to know what you were in for.

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#2543822 - 11/14/13 10:14 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
OK. Some dissenters.... interesting. grin

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person.

Always the best policy, but difficult for many of us. Fortunately, I was able to return mine with no costs incurred.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good DP, but it just didn't gel with me. I found the CFX a little lacking, dynamically, and sonically a tad strident, and none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action). But as Dave Ferris said, it is more even in response than the Nord. Also, chords seemed a little less harmonically coherent than on some DPs, and certain chromatic runs bugged the hell out of me, as the results sounded more like using a pitch bend wheel than playing distinct notes (unacceptable to me in a $2k piano). While I accepted all that with the $600 P-105, I did not expect it to be as egregiously obvious in Yamaha's best ever stage piano. In addition, although the attack samples are longer than some, the decay was typically static; for 95% of the stuff I play, that would not be an issue, but I would hesitate to record with it. To be honest, depending on the action and finger/sound connection, I think the CP40 might be just as useful, given that the older CF samples are the most pleasing (to me), and I found the '75 Rhodes the most useful.

One really good sample, as others have pointed out, is the acoustic bass - that really shines, and may sway those who need to play a lot of LH bass. The 77 Wurli is also well done (better than many). Organs are outdated ROMpler fare (and not as good as those in the PX-5S, IMO), strings are OK but Roland's are better, and I ignored most of the rest of the offering as I wouldn't have used other sounds much. Of course YMMV - considerably.

As has been remarked upon, the aesthetic is part of the price you pay for the weight reduction, but it does have a particularly Soviet brutalist look. Also, when I picked it up by its ends to put it back in the box, the plastic cheeks flexed, and I could imagine those getting cracked quite easily. I got the impression that resale value would not hold up.

Overall, I think that if you need a tool for a particular type of gig, then the CP4 may be the best fit, given the dearth of high quality instruments at modest weight, but if (like me) you need the instrument to provide a modicum of inspiration, you may want to check it out thoroughly before parting with your cash.

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#2543831 - 11/14/13 10:22 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Essentially, the CP4 is a refinement of the Yamaha sound, action, UI, etc. So that's what the term "best yet" refers to, not "best digital piano yet made by any manufacturer ever." You guys have played Yamaha digital pianos enough to know what you were in for.


I never expected it to be the best by any manufacturer, but I was guilty of being swayed by early glowing reports and, yes, by the marketing. Having been rather impressed by the lowly P-105, I was expecting it to be (perhaps unrealistically) considerably more refined than it actually is, in terms of sound. The action, I think, is its best feature, and that may be enough for many players.

As for knowing what I was in for, given that I've avoided Yamaha DPs for years due to what I perceive as lack of innovation and a certain sterility, I succumbed to the notion that, by 2013, surely things had changed. So, yes, I should have known! But it was worth a try.

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#2543832 - 11/14/13 10:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
keyguy Offline
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Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
I have not used mine in the "full band" context, as of yet, only jazz trio. The cp4 did a fine job for me. I would expect the "full band" experience to be less challenging than the jazz trio. Granted, I'm a Yamaha fan, but to me, the CP4 is a vast improvement over previous Yamaha offerings (at least in a live context). Action, sounds, user interface(especially)and weight. While I agree with the aesthetics comments, I believe it's a fair trade off for the weight reduction. YMMV, but I never could get on with the Nord piano, especially given the MIDI limitations.
_________________________
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Tallahassee, FL

www.pureplatinumband.com

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#2543837 - 11/14/13 10:40 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: voxpops
none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds

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#2543839 - 11/14/13 10:45 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

Not looking to cast any aspersions - just curious. I did most of my eval using the 2.1 Chris Pelonis Model 42 system and ADAM A7s in my studio, and the rest using a stereo Line 6 Stage Source L2t rig.

Actually, it'd be interesting to know what sound systems the people who are digging it are using, too...

dB
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#2543843 - 11/14/13 10:55 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

I set it up with a pair of Mackie SRM350s and also a pair of Roland CM30s. I considered taking it into the studio and running it through my Yamaha HS80s, but wanted to keep it in a gigging context, as that's how it would have been used. Unfortunately, whatever I ran it through, the stretching and decay issues would have been equally obvious.

Again, though, I should point out that it is a good DP. I am extremely picky over my piano sound, and have had issues with both Casio and Kawai in that respect. Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

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#2543845 - 11/14/13 11:05 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds


Unfortunately the 4D won't hold much in the way of pianos. I'd wait until Nord adds drawbars to either its Electro 5 or Stage 3 models, and has sufficient memory for a good selection.

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#2543852 - 11/14/13 11:09 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Unfortunately the 4D won't hold much in the way of pianos. .

True. But I thought it was interesting that their newest XL is the first one that could fit--albeit just barely--into a 4D. So if you just need one good piano sound...

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#2543856 - 11/14/13 11:17 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

Not looking to cast any aspersions - just curious. I did most of my eval using the 2.1 Chris Pelonis Model 42 system and ADAM A7s in my studio, and the rest using a stereo Line 6 Stage Source L2t rig.

Actually, it'd be interesting to know what sound systems the people who are digging it are using, too...

dB
I am using the famous Accugroove rig, with a pair of Tri112's through a QSC PLX1804. The sound is stellar. The sound isn't an easy move, but it lives in ATA cases on wheels, inside a trailer.
_________________________
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Tallahassee, FL

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#2543859 - 11/14/13 11:27 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
ITGITC? Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds


The problem with this idea, Scott, is that the Nord Electro 4D doesn't have the 4 Dynamic Response Curves for customizing the keyboard response to your playing style.

This makes a HUGE difference for me not only in the playability of acoustic piano sounds, but Rhodes, Wurlitzer, and Clavinet sounds too.

Tom




Piano and Sample Library section. Nord Electro 4D SW61 (left) - Nord Electro 4 HP / SW73



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#2543862 - 11/14/13 11:33 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
The problem with this idea, Scott, is that the Nord Electro 4D doesn't have the 4 Dynamic Response Curves for customizing the keyboard response to your playing style.

Ah. I wonder how much you could compensate for that by selecting different velocity curves on your weighted controller (PX-5S or whatever).

There is also a trade-off in that the Electro versions of the samples don't have the note-down-pedal-up string resonances of the NP/NS2 models. Though for live gigging, I wonder how noticeable that subtlety would be. (Guess it also depends somewhat on your repertoire and playing style, whether you play a lot without pedal, etc.)

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#2543864 - 11/14/13 11:46 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
OK. Some dissenters.... interesting. grin

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person.

Always the best policy, but difficult for many of us. Fortunately, I was able to return mine with no costs incurred.


Yeah same situation. Nearest place I could try one is over 1hr away by train... and the train journey is about $60 here, plus they don't even have them in the stores and probably won't until around/after xmas.

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#2543865 - 11/14/13 11:47 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.

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#2543866 - 11/14/13 11:47 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Marillion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 265
Loc: UK
Admittedly this is only from demos but I just can't believe the Casio PX5-S comes close to the Yamaha CP-4 in terms of JUST piano sound.

Sure the PX5-S is a powerful axe with many other features, but for piano purists surely the CP-4 is a better option?

For me though this all boils down to action and playing experience. I've long since given up believing that the SOUND of a DP will be anything more than a good approximation of an acoustic, so it's about how much the action keeps my fingers in shape ready for whenever I play the real thing.

Voxpops I know you've got a Roland FP-50...do you not find Roland's Ivory Feel-G action on that frustrating? I'm currently selling my FP4-F with the same action because I'm finding it too frustrating and sluggish these days.

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#2543867 - 11/14/13 11:51 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Marillion]
D-Bon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Marillion
Admittedly this is only from demos but I just can't believe the Casio PX5-S comes close to the Yamaha CP-4 in terms of JUST piano sound.

It doesn't. And I think it would be quite obvious if someone on the forum who has both boards did an A/B test for everyone to hear.

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#2543868 - 11/14/13 11:51 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.
I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.
_________________________
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#2543869 - 11/14/13 11:52 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
The NS2 has tons of other capabilities. The Nord closest to the CP4 would be the Nord Piano 2, i.e. lacking the organ and VA synth functionalities. Though either Nord can do some things the Yamaha can't, and vice versa.


Yeah I can see that but there is cost cutting involved there too... the action in particular. There must be an update around the corner.... those Rhodes sounds have the right tone but need more dynamics and some kind of harmonic overtone for when chords are played... At a recent session I did in Warsaw I was shocked at how limiting those were until I put overdrive on it to mask the switching... there really should be better Rhodes sounds happening to command the sub 3k price (British pounds).

But I do concede it is a damn nice board!!! grin


Edited by orangefunk (11/14/13 11:53 AM)

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#2543870 - 11/14/13 11:54 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
ITGITC? Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
There is also a trade-off in that the Electro versions of the samples don't have the note-down-pedal-up string resonances of the NP/NS2 models. Though for live gigging, I wonder how noticeable that subtlety would be. (Guess it also depends somewhat on your repertoire and playing style, whether you play a lot without pedal, etc.)


Well, sure they do. smile

From Nord's website:

The acoustic grand pianos and uprights are all available in three sizes; large, medium and small. Please note that these three sizes uses the same amount of zones and velocity levels, which means that they have the same great expressiveness and sound quality. Some pianos are even available in a XL version, that feature full sample mapping. The differences between the sizes are in the amount of String Resonance samples. This can help you optimize the memory usage in your Nord unit.

The Lrg, Med and Sml sizes share the same amount of velocity layers, and the same number of zones that are mapped across the keyboard. This means that you can rely on a consistent quality in regards to the playability and expressiveness in the basic sound of every piano, no matter which of these sizes you choose to install in your Nord Piano Library compatible unit.

The Extra Large versions are fully mapped accross the keyboard which increases the size a bit. The velocity layers are the same as on the other sizes.

The Large versions have String Resonance samples all across the keyboard, providing you with a very full sound.

The Medium versions have String Resonance samples in the important middle region of the range, but omit these in the lowest and the highest areas. This gives you a good ratio of functionality and size.

Sml is the version that uses the least amount of space in the piano memory, but still carry a big and powerful punch. This version does not contain any String Resonance samples at all. If an Sml piano is selected in the Nord unit, the String Resonance feature (if applicable) will be disabled.

In my Electro 3 HP, I can load the Large sample set up to 180MB with string resonance samples all across the keyboard.

Although I can load only one, that one really nice sample is often all I need.

The Large Italian Grand Fazioli is 97.3MB. It's the largest "Large" sample of them all. It will fit.

However, the Extra Large version is 182.1MB. It won't.

Comparison chart

I really do like this board. thu

Tom






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#2543871 - 11/14/13 11:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: keyguy
I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

The FP4 is pre-SuperNATURAL® but actually sounded better to me. I think a few of the jazzers here (SK, Jazz+, etc.) would agree.

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#2543874 - 11/14/13 12:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
those Rhodes sounds have the right tone but need more dynamics and some kind of harmonic overtone for when chords are played... At a recent session I did in Warsaw I was shocked at how limiting those were until I put overdrive on it to mask the switching... there really should be better Rhodes sounds happening to command the sub 3k price (British pounds).

Are you including the Bright Tines and Sparkle Top samples in this criticism or just the Mark I, Mark II, and Mark V samples?

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#2543875 - 11/14/13 12:01 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
The Nord Electro 4, Nord Piano 2, and NS2 have both kinds of string resonance:
... pedal down
... pedal up, key down

but the Electro lacks the second kind. It's the main distinction between what they refer to as "generation 1" and "generation 2"

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#2543878 - 11/14/13 12:05 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
zephonic Offline
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Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 2765
Loc: redondo beach, ca
The action on the NP88 isn't the best, but you can make it work. I know I have played plenty of acoustic pianos that were worse.
_________________________
"ah-one, ah-two, ah-one, two, three, four..."

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#2543879 - 11/14/13 12:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
ITGITC? Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
The Nord Electro 4, Nord Piano 2, and NS2 have both kinds of string resonance:
... pedal down
... pedal up, key down

but the Electro lacks the second kind. It's the main distinction between what they refer to as "generation 1" and "generation 2"


Hmmmmmm... I did not know this. idea

I've looked all over Nord's site and could only find this:

Advanced String Resonance reproduces the intricate interplay of piano strings resonating at their fundamental or harmonic frequencies when other notes are played on our Upright and Grand piano sounds.

And this with regards to pedal noise:

Pedal Noise recreates the mechanical sounds of lifting and releasing the damper mechanism, producing the characteristic thomp and sizzle sounds. The Pedal Noise feature responds dynamically to the force/momentum used when pressing or releasing the sustain pedal on the Nord Triple Pedal.

Upon further investigation, the Electro 4 still uses Generation 1 string resonance (not Gen 2 as you mention above). KLONK

To my ears, Nord's string resonance really improves the sound. The Long Release feature is a nice improvement too, especially for solo work.

Thanks, Scott. thu




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#2543880 - 11/14/13 12:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.

I think most manufacturers are now smoothing out velocity switching. The big difference with Roland's SN, to me, is the much more natural-sounding decay, and the wider dynamic range. Their resonance implementation is also good, with both damper and sympathetic resonance available in even the mid-range FP-50. In addition, both Roland and Kawai have long ago dumped stretching, utilizing 88-note samples.

This doesn't necessarily mean they sound great - there's a certain dullness to most SN pianos (and they don't always sit well in a mix), but they do respond very well, generally, and have good finger/sound connection.

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#2543881 - 11/14/13 12:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: zephonic]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: zephonic
The action on the NP88 isn't the best, but you can make it work. I know I have played plenty of acoustic pianos that were worse.


Most definitely ! Like I mentioned earlier, if the NP88/NP2 was THAT bad, I still wouldn't be using it at 2 years and counting.

edit-man ...a lot of posting here. I had to add quotes to make it relevant to the thread..


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/14/13 12:11 PM)
_________________________
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2543883 - 11/14/13 12:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Marillion]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Marillion
Admittedly this is only from demos but I just can't believe the Casio PX5-S comes close to the Yamaha CP-4 in terms of JUST piano sound.

They're different. The overall tonal quality of the Casio is pretty good, IMO, but it suffers from the "plinkiness" problem that has been described by many of us. I couldn't live with that, unfortunately, whereas I could live with the overall tone of the Yamaha (just not some of the other issues).

Quote:
Voxpops I know you've got a Roland FP-50...do you not find Roland's Ivory Feel-G action on that frustrating?

Yes.


Edited by voxpops (11/14/13 12:14 PM)

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#2543884 - 11/14/13 12:15 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: keyguy
I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

The FP4 is pre-SuperNATURAL® but actually sounded better to me. I think a few of the jazzers here (SK, Jazz+, etc.) would agree.

I'm actively looking to repurchase one. Much underrated board.

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#2543885 - 11/14/13 12:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: keyguy
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.
I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

That is a perennial issue with Rolands. Both Yamaha and Kawai have clearer, more "bell-like" samples.

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#2543889 - 11/14/13 12:19 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
copajaus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 6
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Just went to a shop earlier this week to try a CP4. It will be in end of this month. So I played around with a Kurzweil Artis, a Roland Rd700NX a Yamaha S90 (Only decent Yam. board available there...), a NP88 and a Korg SV1 88.

My conclusion:

Best action RD700NX
Best sound => NP88, RD700NX, KORG SV1

I own a NP88 already, in my opinion it would be a perfect instrument with:

- More memory, why can't we load the largest sounds on the board...? Memory is cheap these days, Nord is trying to ensure we buy the newest instrument available with a little bit more memory...
- The action of the Roland
- A real L/R input on the back not the mini 3.5 inch Ipod crap which only work with headphone... Give us what my Korg Kronos has.
- XLR out
- May be a few more sounds? Whithout having to pay 4K for stage 2...?
- Included Music Sheet stand, we should not have to pay for it...

And I be happy... I will check the CP4 when it is available here to compare. I don't think there is a perfect instrument just yet...
_________________________
Nord Piano 2 HA88
Korg Kronos 88
Yamaha Tyros 4
Kawai K3

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#2543890 - 11/14/13 12:22 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: zephonic
The action on the NP88 isn't the best, but you can make it work. I know I have played plenty of acoustic pianos that were worse.


Most definitely ! Like I mentioned earlier, if the NP88/NP2 was THAT bad, I still wouldn't be using it at 2 years and counting.

I agree, although I wonder what it would be like if they utilized Fatar's newer triple-sensor wooden action.

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#2543891 - 11/14/13 12:23 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
I am also one of the fans of the Roland pre " Super Natural".

For some reason I am liking the digital pianos from the previous decade ( FP-4, RD 300GX and Yamaha CP-33 ).

I sit here reading about people who order this stuff sight unseen. I would never do that. There are too many variables in these instruments.

I also don't get this thing of not cutting through a mix. I have had issues with just about every digital I have ever heard being too bright through typical P.A. type speakers.

I have never had an issue with cutting through. Just issues with getting the same sounds that I hear through a good pair of headphones to come through speakers.


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#2543892 - 11/14/13 12:28 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: voxpops
the CFX a little lacking, dynamically, and sonically a tad strident,


Just a thought regarding the more strident sound of the CFX. I heard it a tad in the phones in my 2nd time playing it at the GC for about 15 minutes. I found myself going to the CF on that occasion.

The CFX is a new sample and I think (I could be wrong) created to address the sometimes too transparent sound of the CF on the CP5/1. I think it will sit in the mix better for louder rock contexts but in doing so I think almost any sample is going to lose that softer hue, tonal character, which personally I prefer.

I know Nords , especially with GC type QSC fare, can have a tendency of being harsh or grating. Yet you never hear a complaint about them "cutting through or sitting well in the mix". The thing the Nords have going for them are the detail of the samples-- which when recorded or used live with a good di/pre and monitors can make things easier on the ears in regard to strident, harsh or grating qualities.
_________________________
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2543893 - 11/14/13 12:30 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: copajaus]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: copajaus
Best sound => NP88, RD700NX, KORG SV1

What about the Artis? From the demos I've heard, the new Steinway sample kicks the crap out of the others.

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#2543895 - 11/14/13 12:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: LX88
I sit here reading about people who order this stuff sight unseen. I would never do that. There are too many variables in these instruments.

I think if you live close to a big city with good music stores, you should be able to try most stuff (except Kawai) before you buy. But I find it easier to order something and try it out at home than spend time and money on a trip to test it in often less-than-ideal surroundings.

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#2543896 - 11/14/13 12:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I know Nords , especially with GC type QSC fare, can have a tendency of being harsh or grating. Yet you never hear a complaint about them "cutting through or sitting well in the mix". The thing the Nords have going for them are the detail of the samples-- which when recorded or used live with a good di/pre and monitors can make things easier on the ears in regard to strident, harsh or grating qualities.

I've said this before a few times, when I saw Joe Jackson last year, the Nord Stage 2 he played sounded more real than any other digital piano I've heard live, and it had no problem cutting through a relatively large band.

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#2543898 - 11/14/13 12:37 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
The thing the Nords have going for them are the detail of the samples-- which when recorded or used live with a good di/pre and monitors can make things easier on the ears in regard to strident, harsh or grating qualities.

I did some recording with the NP88 earlier this year, and the detail was astonishing. I struggled a little, though, trying to get the subtlety of response that I wanted using that Fatar action.

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#2543905 - 11/14/13 12:56 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
I find it interesting that some of us here don't like the CP4' but it's likely purely on a statistical basis!

For me, I feel like a part of my musicianship has come back after two years in Nord-land. The finger to sound connection is great for me, something that bugged me with the NS2, as great a board as it is (and it is). I have noticed my hands work better, and are getting back in shape physically and in how my fingers curve when playing a good action.

I played a NS2 yesterday at work and realized for what I do (jazz piano gigs) this board is the right one for me.
_________________________
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#2543906 - 11/14/13 12:56 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: copajaus]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
Upon further investigation, the Electro 4 still uses Generation 1 string resonance.

Right. You can see the differences summarized along the right column at
http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Sound%20Libraries&cllibr=Nord_Piano_Library

Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
The Long Release feature is a nice improvement too, especially for solo work.

I actually think the LR feature was a bigger improvement for them than the string resonances were! I actually didn't like any of the Nord piano sounds until they added that.

Originally Posted By: voxpops

I'm actively looking to repurchase [an FP4-. Much underrated board.

I might have one for sale. Right now it's in the shop. The balance knob wouldn't do anything unless I held it in position. Other than that, it was fine. I'm thinking I might sell it when I get it back, though. Just too many boards!


Originally Posted By: copajaus
I own a NP88 already, in my opinion it would be a perfect instrument with:

- More memory, why can't we load the largest sounds on the board...? Memory is cheap these days

not the kind of memory they use.

Originally Posted By: copajaus
The action of the Roland

I agree, that's a great action. Unfortunately they're not selling it to their competitors! We're kind of stuck with what Fatar makes available, unless Nord finds some other source. Though really, with that Roland action apparently always yielding a board that weighs over 50 lbs, it wouldn't be solution for me anyway. I don't actually mind the NP action, though. Not the best, but not bad.

Originally Posted By: copajaus
A real L/R input on the back not the mini 3.5 inch Ipod crap which only work with headphone... Give us what my Korg Kronos has.
- XLR out
...
Included Music Sheet stand, we should not have to pay for it...

minor things, that not everyone needs, and are pretty easily worked around by those who do, so they would be a low priority in my book

Originally Posted By: copajaus
May be a few more sounds? Whithout having to pay 4K for stage 2...?

The Nord Piano 2 will do it.

Things that bug me about the NP2... You can't set it to play its piano sound from its internal keyboard while triggering its second sound over MIDI (i.e. place the two sounds on different MIDI channels); you can't use its stereo output as a dual mono output, sending piano out one jack and your other sound out the other.

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#2543911 - 11/14/13 01:10 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
I have gig tomorrow - I play the first half then someone else plays the second half then there is some kind of encore - it's like a jazz showcase I guess - I play ten songs in the first half - 5 behind one singer and 5 behind the next - anyway the other pianist offered to bring his Casio PX110. I said not to worry I would bring my CP4. I will try to get a recording, I usually record everything I do but my little H4 doesn't get great quality, not postable anyway. But I will chime in with how it felt playing the CP4 and how it sounded from the audience.

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#2543914 - 11/14/13 01:16 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
I find it interesting that some of us here don't like the CP4' but it's likely purely on a statistical basis!

For me, I feel like a part of my musicianship has come back after two years in Nord-land. The finger to sound connection is great for me, something that bugged me with the NS2, as great a board as it is (and it is). I have noticed my hands work better, and are getting back in shape physically and in how my fingers curve when playing a good action.

I played a NS2 yesterday at work and realized for what I do (jazz piano gigs) this board is the right one for me.


I think a good action counts for a lot. That's primarily why I sold the NP and ordered the CP4. If Yamaha could provide an 88-note sample set, better decay characteristics, full resonance implementation, and improved dynamics, along with that wooden action, I'd be tempted again, but I don't think it's going to happen! Even after years of software pianos offering so much more detail, it seems just a little odd that the DP manufacturer recycling ethos is still so much in evidence.

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#2543916 - 11/14/13 01:23 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
dazzjazz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Of course it's so subjective.
I don't hear it the way you hear it voxpops. After owning a CP33 for years and doing hundreds of gigs on it, the CP4 seems like all new upgraded sound and action to me. I love the tone of the CFX - have you heard my demo of it?
_________________________
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#2543917 - 11/14/13 01:23 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: voxpops
If Yamaha could provide an 88-note sample set, better decay characteristics, full resonance implementation, and improved dynamics, along with that wooden action, I'd be tempted again, but I don't think it's going to happen! Even after years of software pianos offering so much more detail, it seems just a little odd that the DP manufacturer recycling ethos is still so much in evidence.

The CP4, while it has some new features (like the CFX piano), is largely about bringing the CP1/CP5 technology down in price/weight and simplifying the interface. I think something more along the lines of what you're looking for would probably appear in a new CP1-priced flagship before finding its way down to the more economical models. You don't usually see the big technological jumps first appear in the moderately priced boards.

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#2543923 - 11/14/13 01:32 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
copajaus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 6
Loc: Sydney, Australia
To keep going on what I was talking about previously;

- The Roland RD700NX has nice sounds, I kind of like the "layer" configuration and the tone to layer relationship it's pretty straight forward.
Somehow some sounds are "Muddy..." , some pianos and especially some EP's; I still think that a Korg SV1 or my KRONOS has very satisfying EP sounds and are No 1 for me. The NP2 is second, the Roland 3rd.
But the RH3 is not the best. I have already fixed (Under warranty) the issue with the keyed on my KRONOS 88, it's better but could improve.

- I did not like the ARTIS, the key response feels a little odd to me, there is some kind of "Progressive resistance" which makes playing unnatural, feels a bit like you are playing with a a sponge...! the piano did not do it either, sorry Kurzweil, it might attract more the Rock & Roll type of player.

- The CP4 sounds good from what I can read in this forum. I will not buy it without trying it first though.

- At the meantime my NP2 is my best piano in my setup.
I just don't like the way samples are kind of "Trim down" especially on the last couple of octaves. You've got to get the biggest samples possible to make it work properly and even when you do that it still "scream" a little bit for me.

My reference instrument at home is a Kawai K3 Upright.
_________________________
Nord Piano 2 HA88
Korg Kronos 88
Yamaha Tyros 4
Kawai K3

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#2543926 - 11/14/13 01:36 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
keyguy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 502
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Things that bug me about the NP2... You can't set it to play its piano sound from its internal keyboard while triggering its second sound over MIDI (i.e. place the two sounds on different MIDI channels); you can't use its stereo output as a dual mono output, sending piano out one jack and your other sound out the other.

Since I play LH bass through a Motif rack, the NP does not work for me for exactly this reason.
_________________________
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Tallahassee, FL

www.pureplatinumband.com

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#2543928 - 11/14/13 01:37 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: copajaus]
zephonic Offline
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Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 2765
Loc: redondo beach, ca
A lot of the perceived "mud" in Roland sounds is often their over-indulgence with the chorus. Disabling it can really clean stuff up.
_________________________
"ah-one, ah-two, ah-one, two, three, four..."

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#2543931 - 11/14/13 01:41 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: copajaus]
copajaus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 6
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Just realise,

Lot of "I don't like" in what I said before, looks like the search for the perfect instrument is far from over...
Or I might be getting Old.

Anyhow for what it's worth, in my opinion, anything done today tend to be very "Clinical" and somewhat "Dry", only a few instruments are able to have a "Soul" as such. Are we going to talk about a Kurzweil ARTIS in 40 years? May be not. We still talk however about a 70's Rhodes EP or a Wurlitzer today... may be something is missing...?
_________________________
Nord Piano 2 HA88
Korg Kronos 88
Yamaha Tyros 4
Kawai K3

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#2543932 - 11/14/13 01:44 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: copajaus]
copajaus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 6
Loc: Sydney, Australia
And I don't even mention an Hammond B3.

I should have bought one late 70's instead of the Aurora Classic and the Crumar I have back in Europe...

That's another story.
_________________________
Nord Piano 2 HA88
Korg Kronos 88
Yamaha Tyros 4
Kawai K3

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#2543933 - 11/14/13 01:46 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: zephonic]
D-Bon Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: zephonic
A lot of the perceived "mud" in Roland sounds is often their over-indulgence with the chorus. Disabling it can really clean stuff up.

We're talking AP sounds... confused

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#2543937 - 11/14/13 01:55 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: keyguy]
AnotherScott Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: copajaus
I still think that a Korg SV1 or my KRONOS has very satisfying EP sounds and are No 1 for me. The NP2 is second, the Roland 3rd.

I'd probably rank then the same way. Though I also like the Kurzweil EPs a lot.

Originally Posted By: keyguy
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Things that bug me about the NP2... You can't set it to play its piano sound from its internal keyboard while triggering its second sound over MIDI (i.e. place the two sounds on different MIDI channels); you can't use its stereo output as a dual mono output, sending piano out one jack and your other sound out the other.

Since I play LH bass through a Motif rack, the NP does not work for me for exactly this reason.

Yes, another side of the same MIDI limitation. When you split the board, you can't split the MIDI channels you're sending on.

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#2543942 - 11/14/13 02:18 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: LX88


I sit here reading about people who order this stuff sight unseen. I would never do that. There are too many variables in these instruments.



Good for you... smile Some of us have little options...

I have never really lived in a city where I could actually try the latest stuff out in person. Only when I lived in Oslo did I get to play stuff.. though at first it always seemed a step behind (and ridiculously expensive) ... though I admit I did buy my Kronos 61 key after trying it out first (at nearly 28,000 NOK which is near $4,600).

I tended to get to try stuff when I was travelling around Europe, then order it from Thomann...

I guess that's the pattern for most of us.

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#2543946 - 11/14/13 02:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: dazzjazz
Of course it's so subjective.
I don't hear it the way you hear it voxpops. After owning a CP33 for years and doing hundreds of gigs on it, the CP4 seems like all new upgraded sound and action to me.

I'm sure that the CP4 would seem like a big upgrade after the CP33 - but after a Nord, not so much (except for the action). And with other manufacturers providing fully mapped sample sets and sophisticated resonance etc., the CP4 seems a few years behind the curve.


Quote:
I love the tone of the CFX - have you heard my demo of it?
I've heard a few, but can't remember if I've heard yours - do you have a link?

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#2543952 - 11/14/13 02:38 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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10k Club

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 16867
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

I set it up with a pair of Mackie SRM350s and also a pair of Roland CM30s.

Since you say you're extremely picky about piano sounds, you might consider trying different speakers. I haven't found either of those to be among the best I've heard....and I'm pretty picky about speakers.

The Mackies especially - IIRC, their HF driver doesn't have a lot of power, and isn't ideal for near field monitoring.

I believe it's much easier to make an objective evaluation of a sound source if your monitoring solution is the best it can be (both in the studio and live).

dB
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#2543953 - 11/14/13 02:38 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
copajaus Offline
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May be we end up having a new CFX sample in the Nord Piano Library...
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#2543954 - 11/14/13 02:44 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

I set it up with a pair of Mackie SRM350s and also a pair of Roland CM30s.

Since you say you're extremely picky about piano sounds, you might consider different speakers. I haven't found either of those to be among the best I've heard....and I'm pretty picky about speakers. I think it's much easier to make an objective evaluation of a sound source if your monitoring solution is the best it can be (both in the studio and live).

dB


That's a fair point. But that was just what happened to be in the rehearsal space. Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s. Of course, I also used some decent Beyer headphones to check what was actually coming out of the piano, as I wanted to be sure my judgment wasn't being affected by the speakers.

Also, I've found that if I like the sound through lower end speakers, I'll like it through anything.

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#2543955 - 11/14/13 02:48 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s.

I like those better. I'd be interested to hear if your opinion of the CP4 would have changed if you had tried those.

Originally Posted By: voxpops
Also, I've found that if I like the sound through lower end speakers, I'll like it through anything.

I have to disagree with that - especially with PA speakers. Inexpensive, underpowered amps are a bad thing - unless you're looking for distortion - and HF drivers that are more designed for wide throw applications just don't do the job for critical monitoring.

dB
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#2543956 - 11/14/13 02:51 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s.

I like those better. I'd be interested to hear if your opinion of the CP4 would have changed if you had tried those.

dB

Unfortunately, no speakers or headphones could have masked the lack of sympathetic resonance, the obvious stretching or the missing dynamics.

However, they might have helped with the overall tone.

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#2543958 - 11/14/13 02:54 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
they might have helped with the overall tone.

I think you'd find that's definitely the case. cool

You should try to use the best monitoring system you can get - especially If you're really picky about tone. thu

dB
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#2543962 - 11/14/13 03:05 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: voxpops
they might have helped with the overall tone.

I think you'd find that's definitely the case. cool

Yes, if I'd been generally OK with the technical aspects of the piano, I'd have taken it into the studio and listened through the HS80s, which are brutally honest. But I just felt that the implementation was so lackluster, technically, that it wasn't worth it. It went back to the dealer within hours - and that surprised me: I have rarely felt so disinclined to keep a higher end DP for extended evaluation.

Other than the new CFX sample, what is the "sonic attraction" of the CP4 when compared with the best DPs (let alone the software pianos)?

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#2543963 - 11/14/13 03:10 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
if I'd been generally OK with the technical aspects of the piano, I'd have taken it into the studio and listened through the HS80s, which are brutally honest.

Actually I find those to be a bit bass heavy with a slightly covered top end...but YMMV.

Quote:
But I just felt that the implementation was so lackluster, technically, that it wasn't worth it. It went back to the dealer within hours - and that surprised me: I have rarely felt so disinclined to keep a higher end DP for extended evaluation.

I didn't have anywhere near the problems you had with the CP4...nor, clearly, did the Yamaha engineers, the people who they had beta test it, and more than a few folks on the forum who also pride themselves on their ability to evaluate piano sounds. idk

It just goes to show that everyone is looking for different things, I guess. As a friend of mine says, that's why there are blondes, brunettes and redheads. smile

dB
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#2543964 - 11/14/13 03:23 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s. Of course, I also used some decent Beyer headphones to check what was actually coming out of the piano, as I wanted to be sure my judgment wasn't being affected by the speakers.

Yeah, quality headphones are best for at least letting you know what the potential is. I haven't played through the K10, but I found piano to sound better from the EV ZXa1 than I did from the QSC K8, less colored in the midrange.

Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
It just goes to show that everyone is looking for different things, I guess. As a friend of mine says, that's why there are blondes, brunettes and redheads. smile

I thought that was so, no matter what we had, we'd always want something else!

It reminds me of when I met my girlfriend's family, and someone asked me why I had two cars. I answered that it was because I couldn't have two girlfriends.

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#2543965 - 11/14/13 03:25 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
dazzjazz Offline
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#2543966 - 11/14/13 03:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Nice playing, brother Dazz!

dB
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#2543967 - 11/14/13 03:32 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
voxpops Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce

Nice playing, brother Dazz!

dB

Yes, very nice!

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#2543968 - 11/14/13 03:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: voxpops
they might have helped with the overall tone.

I think you'd find that's definitely the case. cool

You should try to use the best monitoring system you can get - especially If you're really picky about tone. thu

dB


Call me crazy...but there's a reason why I spend $3500 on a pair of speakers and a di/preamp. If I would haul the pair of RCF TT22As (12"s) instead of the TT08As (8"s) that number would go up another grand. cry

And at times I think I could do better with speakers then what I have. The L'Acoustics 108P or the new Fulcrum Acoustics FA28ac.
http://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/products/fa-portable.html

These both sound as detailed as some of the higher end studio monitors. But where do you stop for basically your own personal satisfaction with something that will never be a real piano anyway... wink

In any case, what I have at half the price of those last two speakers, gives me a very real representation on most gig situations, except when I run into the poorest of acoustical nightmares. Then it wouldn't matter , to a certain extent, what speakers/pre was being used.

Yes again, cool Darren.


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/14/13 06:36 PM)
Edit Reason: added thoughts
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#2544617 - 11/17/13 05:45 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: voxpops
none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds


Unfortunately the 4D won't hold much in the way of pianos. I'd wait until Nord adds drawbars to either its Electro 5 or Stage 3 models, and has sufficient memory for a good selection.

Then how about the Casio 88 and a Nord Stage 2-73, with Ocean Beach drawbars? Not cheap, but you might actually get everything you want out of that lightweight combo. Think of all the money you'll save from the end of all the buying, selling, and re-buying! ;-)

This is very much the setup I described thinking about in a recent thread, except also adding a MOXF6 up top. I just really want the Yamaha sounds and functionality in my rig. Which means I could kinda do it with a MOXF8 and a NS2-73, except I prefer the feel of the Casio action, and also, I like my bottom board to have minimal depth so the 2nd board's keys don't have to be so far from the first. But as a bonus, when you go that way, you get the Casio's sounds/functionality as well.

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#2544620 - 11/17/13 06:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
voxpops Offline
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You know, I'm not too far from coming to that conclusion myself! I daren't think too hard about all the boards I've bought and sold in the last few years (even less about the money). eek

At least the Casio provides a super-lightweight bottom board with some very usable sounds of its own. The Kronos 61 is another possibility for the top.

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#2545224 - 11/20/13 09:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: voxpops]
drpopper Offline
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The problem the CP4 has is exactly as Voxy has said. The AP's are rubbish TECHNICALLY ( not 88 key sampled, stretched, looped ) and you can hear it which turns you off the board even though it's quite a pleasing tonality. Yamaha is technically years behind .... Dinosaur ?

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#2545226 - 11/20/13 09:39 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drpopper]
D-Bon Offline
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Originally Posted By: drpopper
The problem the CP4 has is exactly as Voxy has said. The AP's are rubbish TECHNICALLY ( not 88 key sampled, stretched, looped ) and you can hear it which turns you off the board even though it's quite a pleasing tonality. Yamaha is technically years behind .... Dinosaur ?

Outdated? Yes? "Rubbish"? Hardly.

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#2545232 - 11/20/13 09:54 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
LX88 Offline
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The sound that Darren Heinrich got from the CFX sample certainly doesn't sound like rubbish. The CP4 records very well.

I still don't find a hell of a lot not to like about the Yamaha Nocturne I have, which is now around 4 or 5 years old. It's the same sample as the CP33 ( I think ).

I always used the CP33 as sort of a standard to compare other digital pianos to in the stores, and I generally walked away as being under impressed by most of them.

I am very curious to demo a CP4 but they haven't hit stores near me yet.

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#2545326 - 11/20/13 01:38 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drpopper]
Jazzed Offline
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Originally Posted By: drpopper
The problem the CP4 has is exactly as Voxy has said. The AP's are rubbish TECHNICALLY ( not 88 key sampled, stretched, looped ) and you can hear it which turns you off the board even though it's quite a pleasing tonality. Yamaha is technically years behind .... Dinosaur ?

Wasn't the whole big new thing with the CP1 when it was released that a lot of its sound was based on physical models and not samples? What exactly is SCM?

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#2545344 - 11/20/13 02:40 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Jazzed]
orangefunk Offline
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Yeah I agree.. its confusing. I too thought the CP1 was supposed to be a combination of samples and modelling to sort out the velocity switches. I also thought soundboard resonance and all the other stuff was the norm… but if that is missing from the CP4 it seems quite an omission..

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#2545357 - 11/20/13 04:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
16251 Offline
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Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Yeah I agree.. its confusing. I too thought the CP1 was supposed to be a combination of samples and modelling to sort out the velocity switches. I also thought soundboard resonance and all the other stuff was the norm… but if that is missing from the CP4 it seems quite an omission..

I'm kind of repeating myself from the other DP blog but it seems relevant.

It appears the CP4 has more in common with the CP33 then the C1/5. It would seem Yamaha dropped the interface from the CP1/5, loosing the lid, sympathetic voices, hammer, hard to understand, etc. in favor of a modified CP33 interface, along with better action, more samples. This probably took less R&D money, but maybe they didn't move the bar that forward, but will make more money.
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#2545360 - 11/20/13 04:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Yeah I agree.. its confusing. I too thought the CP1 was supposed to be a combination of samples and modelling to sort out the velocity switches. I also thought soundboard resonance and all the other stuff was the norm… but if that is missing from the CP4 it seems quite an omission..


From Motifator.com:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/cp4_stage
"You are basically provided complete multi-samples of three very expensive Yamaha acoustic pianos: the CFX, the CFIIIS and the S6. You are also given actual physical models of the classic Tine pianos (FenderRhodes/Rhodes), the reed pianos (Wurlitzer), and the electro acoustic pianos (CP80). Meticulous samples of the classic FM electric piano sounds (Yamaha DX7).
...
Also included are a variety of Voices (deemed useful for the gigging piano player on the job) based on AWM2 sample-playback engine."

So,- the acoustic pianos are MULTI-SAMPLED, the electric pianos are PHYSICALLY MODELLED, Yamaha DX7 is also SAMPLED and there´s the Motif-type AWM section for the additional sounds which I assume is shorter loops, lower sampling rate, more compressed or such.

As a result,- it might be you really get rid from velocity jumps w/ the electric pianos only and depending on how well the acoustic pianos are been sampled.
Maybe I´m wrong but I´ve read nowhere the acoustic pianos are physical models too using samples just only as a reference.

A.C.
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#2545361 - 11/20/13 04:21 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: 16251]
Jazzed Offline
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Originally Posted By: 16251
I'm kind of repeating myself from the other DP blog but it seems relevant.

It appears the CP4 has more in common with the CP33 then the C1/5. It would seem Yamaha dropped the interface from the CP1/5, loosing the lid, sympathetic voices, hammer, hard to understand, etc. in favor of a modified CP33 interface, along with better action, more samples. This probably took less R&D money, but maybe they didn't move the bar that forward, but will make more money.

(what other DP blog are you referring to?)

But why wouldn't they have kept the modelling technology if it produced a more playable instrument (velocity layer switching, resonance etc) and just set many of the parameters that were previously adjustable in the presets? Like the different Pianoteq products...same instrument model, less access to that model's parameters in the Stage version.

Is it possible they did basically that? That wouldn't have required very much new R&D since the model was been done for the CP1 and CP5. I'm not sure why they wouldn't use the newest technology they developed in favour of older (CP33) technology with the newer samples unless they thought that sounded better for some reason.

Most people seem to find the CP4 very playable and responsive, which is often suggestive of physical modelling. I really really need to go to a store and sit down with this keyboard for a couple hours and see how I feel about it.

Edit

From the original CP4 thread

Originally Posted By: Athan Billias
Sorry if we were unclear. The CP 4 and 40 uses the same SCM technology that was in the previous models. "Based on" in this case means that all the sounds were redone to match the new Graded NW so they weren't simply ported , but improved from the previous models,but use the same technology. The user interface is slightly different, but you can still control the preamp modeling, mic modeling , tine position , key off volume, etc.

Originally Posted By: Athan Billias
Quote:
Do the acoustic pianos on the CP4 employ SCM (as on the CP1/5/50), or only the electric pianos?
Yes, the basic technology is the same, but of course the sounds are either completely new (CFX) or tweaked for the new GH3 action.


Edited by Jazzed (11/20/13 04:38 PM)

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#2545367 - 11/20/13 05:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
drpopper Offline
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Registered: 01/16/10
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Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: drpopper
The problem the CP4 has is exactly as Voxy has said. The AP's are rubbish TECHNICALLY ( not 88 key sampled, stretched, looped ) and you can hear it which turns you off the board even though it's quite a pleasing tonality. Yamaha is technically years behind .... Dinosaur ?

Outdated? Yes? "Rubbish"? Hardly.


Nope technically they are rubbish completely outdated compared to their competitors ... they sound fine, good even... until you pick up on the stretching and looping decay.

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#2545369 - 11/20/13 05:21 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
drpopper Offline
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Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Yeah I agree.. its confusing. I too thought the CP1 was supposed to be a combination of samples and modelling to sort out the velocity switches. I also thought soundboard resonance and all the other stuff was the norm… but if that is missing from the CP4 it seems quite an omission..



SCM was Yamaha marketing speak for some amp modelling on their AP's and their modeled EP's. It meant something on their EP's but the actual AP samples on the CP1/5/50 (and the CP4 in CF111s and S6 patches) are the same old stretched, looped partially sampled stuff that's on ever other Yamaha from their Clavinova's down to the P105 in various guises. Their new CFX sample (which they could have made great) is still stretched and looped like all other Yamahas except the AG.With Yamaha you have to separate the marketing speak from the facts. It's almost like they deliberately write their marketing materials to cover up their glaring deficiencies in modern DP technology. It's a real shame because the CFX is a totally fabulously sounding instrument and properly processed it should be very good indeed. But Yamaha just cut too many corners and once you hear a decaying loop or a stretched group on a Yamaha you always hear it everytime. It really is 10 year old technology being repackaged as new. One thing I'll say for Roland is that no matter how metallic their mid range can sound you will never hear a looping decay or a stretched group of notes on a Roland SN piano ...because it is genuine new technology that eliminates those things.

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#2545372 - 11/20/13 05:36 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drpopper]
D-Bon Offline
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Originally Posted By: drpopper
Nope technically they are rubbish completely outdated compared to their competitors ... they sound fine, good even... until you pick up on the stretching and looping decay.

You know what's rubbish, drpooper? Towing the line that newer means better. Doesn't seem to be an issue for Chuck Leavell or some of the highly discerning pianists on this forum. rolleyes

Originally Posted By: drpopper
One thing I'll say for Roland is that no matter how metallic their mid range can sound you will never hear a looping decay or a stretched group of notes on a Roland SN piano ...because it is genuine new technology that eliminates those things.

Too bad they haven't been able to use that "genuine new technology" to get the basic tone of a piano right. idea

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#2545373 - 11/20/13 05:57 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
timwat Offline
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I've been gigging mine 3-4 times a week, every week, since it arrived. All I can say is the technical objections above are irrelevant to me, as it's the best stage piano I've owned.

The finger-to-sound connection (the action is a big part of that, and the CFX sample another) stands head and shoulders above any of the other boards I own. I feel like it allows me to play as a pianist, not as a keyboard player approaching a digital instrument trying to approximate a piano.

When I also consider the wide range of house pianos I encounter in my normal gig life, the CP4 really is a superior solution - outdated rubbish stretching, looping and all.
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#2545390 - 11/20/13 07:04 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
drpopper Offline
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Posts: 20
Originally Posted By: D-Bon



Too bad they haven't been able to use that "genuine new technology" to get the basic tone of a piano right. idea


They have done so.. their Studio Grand patch (based on the Yamaha C7) on the RD700NX is the finest digital piano patch ever made. But their Concert Grand patches based on the Steinway's do leave a lot to be desired.

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#2545397 - 11/20/13 08:13 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drpopper]
ITGITC? Offline
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KLONK

OK. So let me get this straight:

As of - RIGHT NOW - For best hardware stage pianos the ranking goes something like this:

#1. Nord Piano 2 HA88 $3,000
#2. Yamaha CP4 $2,200
#3. Casio PX-5S $1,000
#4. Roland RD-700NX $2,700
#5. Kurzweil Artis $2,200

Everybody agrees on this, right?

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#2545403 - 11/20/13 08:33 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
AnotherScott Offline
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Well, I think you've accurately identified the generally most desirable pianos from Nord, Yamaha, Casio, Roland, and Kurzweil, however people may rank them. But there are also people who put the Kronos in there... not marketed as a "stage piano" but the only way to get Korg's best piano.

As for ranking... I'd probably pick the Roland for action, the Casio for size/weight/price, the Nord for sound, and the Yamaha perhaps for the best balance of everything. (I haven't played the Artis.)

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#2545410 - 11/20/13 10:20 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drpopper]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: drpopper
Originally Posted By: D-Bon



Too bad they haven't been able to use that "genuine new technology" to get the basic tone of a piano right. idea


They have done so.. their Studio Grand patch (based on the Yamaha C7) on the RD700NX is the finest digital piano patch ever made. But their Concert Grand patches based on the Steinway's do leave a lot to be desired.


Hey Doc, how's it going man ? Yeah I agree that Studio Grand sample is quite good and doesn't have those weird, distorted characteristics, related to touch/velocity, that the Concert & bright Grand do on the A & Ab just above middle C. From a jazz perspective that was always a deal breaker for me on an otherwise fine instrument--although I always did still prefer the CP5 to it- both action and sound.
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#2545412 - 11/20/13 10:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: ITGITC?

KLONK

OK. So let me get this straight:

As of - RIGHT NOW - For best hardware stage pianos the ranking goes something like this:

#1. Nord Piano 2 HA88 $3,000
#2. Yamaha CP4 $2,200
#3. Casio PX-5S $1,000
#4. Roland RD-700NX $2,700
#5. Kurzweil Artis $2,200

Everybody agrees on this, right?



I'd still put both the CP1 & 5 in there. cool

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
But there are also people who put the Kronos in there... not marketed as a "stage piano" but the only way to get Korg's best piano.


This is my viewpoint of course, but I don't think Korg will ever be a first choice when it comes to piano. At least, for people like myself, that are more jazz /classical acoustic bred types.
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#2545420 - 11/21/13 04:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
DPs are always about compromise. Fact. I've said it before and I'll say it again, stats mean very little when it comes to playability and overall musical experience.

In theory, the Kronos pianos should rule the roost – very recent recordings, every key sampled, no looping whatsoever. But playing them proved to be a less than satisfying experience for me.

The one piano of many bought and sold which I still look back on with fondness is the CP33. There was just something about the combination of touch and tone which I connected with.

Yes, it was stretched and looped but I didn't really notice it very much and I'm damn sure my audiences never did. When we did an OB recording with the BBC with it, the engineer described it as "superb - the best digital piano I ever heard".
_________________________
Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361 | Crumar Mojo

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#2545426 - 11/21/13 05:03 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Aidan


The one piano of many bought and sold which I still look back on with fondness is the CP33. There was just something about the combination of touch and tone which I connected with.

Yes, it was stretched and looped but I didn't really notice it very much and I'm damn sure my audiences never did. When we did an OB recording with the BBC with it, the engineer described it as "superb - the best digital piano I ever heard".


I used the CP33 on a few albums, one of which was mixed at Yamaha Studios in Japan by a guy who OWNS a CFIII. Even he didn't realise it was a digital piano.

I'm really happy with the CP4 and couldn't care less about how the sound is produced. It simply works for me and sounds great.
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#2545434 - 11/21/13 06:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: drpopper]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7496
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: drpopper
their Studio Grand patch (based on the Yamaha C7) on the RD700NX is the finest digital piano patch ever made.

I cannot agree.

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#2545470 - 11/21/13 08:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: drpopper
their Studio Grand patch (based on the Yamaha C7) on the RD700NX is the finest digital piano patch ever made.

I cannot agree.


My experience splits the difference: In certain settings, the Studio Grand tone works great.
I noticed this with the RD700NX, a few years back; and it still applies when using my JP-50 on smaller stage gigs. There is both a clarity, and presence that is very effective.
But for overall coverage Yamaha AWM2 is still my go-to, live piano sound. All of the variations presented - from the Motif based, CF III sample to the S6 sample, plus a few, heavily tweaked Voices that combine samples - work equally well.
_________________________
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"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2545479 - 11/21/13 08:26 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
I've said it before and I'll say it again, stats mean very little when it comes to playability and overall musical experience.

I agree completely.

I can't begin to tell you how many huge (GB) pianos I've played (individial note sampling, no looping, multiple velocities) that have left me completely cold. OTOH, I've played pianos that weren't even close to 100MB in size that I used happily...because they were really well programmed. I'd rather use the piano sound in my MOTIF than any Gigasampler piano I've played to date.

To be clear - I don't examine piano samples, or put them under any sort of microscope. I just play them. Either I connect with them, or I don't.

I found the pianos in the CP4 to be way playable. I would happily gig with any of them. YMMV.

dB
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#2545493 - 11/21/13 08:43 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Moon Zero Two Offline
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Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 974
I have both a Kronos 73 and a CP4. Even though the Kronos has two 4 plus gig piano sample sets I prefer the CP4. The CP4 sounds better to me when it comes to pianos. acoustic at least - the kronos rhodes sounds are great.

However, I have Ivory installed on a Receptor and the new American grand and the Italian grand are better than either one of them. But I would say the CP and Kronos sound better than the Native instruments pianos.

Off topic: I was creating setups in set list for gig Saturday (my first with the Kronos) - a lot of pop stuff and I picked out some brass and flute sounds - some pads and synth leads - in additional to piano and rhodes and CX3 - and I can't help missing some of my favorite Motif sounds like the sweet flute the hybrid brass and a couple of others. Kronos doesn't feel as expressive. I may change my mind and use the CP4 instead...

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#2545500 - 11/21/13 09:00 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce


....I'd rather use the piano sound in my MOTIF than any Gigasampler piano I've played to date.

....I don't examine piano samples, or put them under any sort of microscope. I just play them. Either I connect with them, or I don't.



That 'connection' is essential - as we're attempting to replicate the experience of playing a highly complex, acoustic instrument. Ivory 2 American D is very playable; it 'connects' well - compared to other gigahog pianos I've tried. But I still use my S90XS live. And I don't expect the CP4 to be a let-down, either. Still have to find one of those to play; perhaps there's a CP4 in Denver by now wink

Possible new marketing slogan for Yamaha DP's: " It's not the size of the sample, it's what we do with it ".
_________________________
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"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2545503 - 11/21/13 09:05 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moon Zero Two]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: Moon Zero Two
Off topic: I was creating setups in set list for gig Saturday (my first with the Kronos) - a lot of pop stuff and I picked out some brass and flute sounds - some pads and synth leads - in additional to piano and rhodes and CX3 - and I can't help missing some of my favorite Motif sounds like the sweet flute the hybrid brass and a couple of others. Kronos doesn't feel as expressive. I may change my mind and use the CP4 instead...

For some more/better brass/flute options in the Kronos, check out
http://thekronosblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/brass-and-wind-programs.html

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#2545505 - 11/21/13 09:08 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
ITGITC? Offline
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Registered: 12/18/02
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Ivory 2 American D is very playable; it 'connects' well - compared to other gigahog pianos I've tried.


Gigahog?

BWAHAhahahahahaha. laugh

That's going to be a new entry in the Urban-Geek Dictionary for sure!

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#2545538 - 11/21/13 10:00 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
I too had to pass on the most recent of the Roland Supernaturals.

Of what I heard the patch I liked was the Concert Grand. It seemed to be the most full sounding and on a lot of it, the fidelity and clarity is actually quite nice .

However, I was very picky about the sound of some of the overtones. It just didn't sound like an acoustic instrument to me. But this is just from listening to the RD700GX in stores through headphones.

While I wasn't completely sold on the acoustic piano sound, what I really found perplexing were the electric pianos. I couldn't find a Rhodes in the whole lot that seemed to have any warmth. It was all "character".... and I just couldn't make it work for what I want to hear.

I will take another listen to the Studio Grand patch. But as I recall it didn't sound as wide open as the Concert Grand did.

But ultimately the weight and price of the 700NX did not make me seriously consider it. There is still one at a reasonable price on the Garage Sale. Has it gone anywhere?

I am seeing in some of the newer Casio samples that they are wanting to roll off lows and highs so that the EP's will cut through the mix. Personally I don't get it.

As far as looping and sampling techniques that are supposedly behind the technology curve, I wouldn't even know how to identify any of it.

I only know if ALL of the tones sound good.... not most of them. If they all don't sound good and natural, I will pass.

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#2545631 - 11/21/13 02:28 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: ITGITC?
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Ivory 2 American D is very playable; it 'connects' well - compared to other gigahog pianos I've tried.


Gigahog?

BWAHAhahahahahaha. laugh

That's going to be a new entry in the Urban-Geek Dictionary for sure!


Glad ya liked that one, Tom. I believe that the variant "Gigahawg" should also be listed..
_________________________
"....But Tonto he was smarter. And one day said, "Kemo sabe: Kiss my ass I bought a boat, I'm going out to sea" - Lyle Lovett

"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2546525 - 11/25/13 12:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
scales Offline
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Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Daphne, AL
Have any of you CP-4 users figured out how to use the foot controller for the "wah" effect on the Clav? For the life of me I can't figure it out and the manual is not very in depth. The Yamaha sales rep demos this on the Kraft Music Website (CP-4 demo).

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#2546536 - 11/25/13 01:13 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: scales]
dazzjazz Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 995
Loc: Sydney
I don't have mine accessible right now, but from memory you must select the Wah effect that is Labelled as Pedal Wah, not touch Wah. These are in the MOD category. I imagine that once selected, the Control pedal is already mapped to it, but you can probably tweak centre frequency and depth. Gigging on it tonight, will check it out.
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#2546631 - 11/25/13 08:25 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: dazzjazz]
Moonglow Online   content
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Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 3485
Loc: Northwest Indiana
I went into my local Guitar Center this afternoon and not surprisingly, no CP-4. So I asked the keyboard tech (term used loosely) if they were going to get one in, to which he replied, "Na, we don't get very many workstations here." facepalm
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#2546633 - 11/25/13 08:33 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moonglow]
Michael Wright Offline
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Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 1208
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
I went into my local Guitar Center this afternoon and not surprisingly, no CP-4. So I asked the keyboard tech (term used loosely) if they were going to get one in, to which he replied, "Na, we don't get very many workstations here." facepalm
I went up to L&Mq in Oshawa last week to see what they had. Brian, the fellow I deal with in the keyboard dept, ordered one and will call me when they get their demo. Great guy, great keyboard dept. thu
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#2547446 - 11/28/13 10:42 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Fábio Sena]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Just arrived home to find a note to take to the Post Office (which is now closed!). Will let you all know what I think tomorrow!!!

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#2547449 - 11/28/13 10:53 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Doh! Hurry up!
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Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361 | Crumar Mojo

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#2547451 - 11/28/13 11:03 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
orangefunk Offline
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Might be a short day at work tomorrow Aidan! wink

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#2547455 - 11/28/13 11:13 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moonglow]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
I went into my local Guitar Center this afternoon and not surprisingly, no CP-4. So I asked the keyboard tech (term used loosely) if they were going to get one in, to which he replied, "Na, we don't get very many workstations here." facepalm


facepalm , indeed ! The Merrillville GC used to be pretty well stocked, keys-wise; but that was 5 - 10 years back. And here I thought my gear access would improve if we head back to NW IN in 2014. Other than downtown Denver GC ( a driving headache from Loveland ), the gear situation out here is pretty dismal. I actually saw, and played a VR-09 for the first time last night; surprisingly enough, it was at a guitar oriented shop near me.

Looks like road trips to Sweetwater, or Indy GC might be in my future. Sweetwater's a cool hang though....
_________________________
"....But Tonto he was smarter. And one day said, "Kemo sabe: Kiss my ass I bought a boat, I'm going out to sea" - Lyle Lovett

"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2547456 - 11/28/13 11:15 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
analogholic Offline
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Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Might be a short day at work tomorrow Aidan! wink


Yeah man, make it REALLY short thank you very much smile
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#2547481 - 11/28/13 01:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: analogholic]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
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I'll be gnawing at the sellotape in the post office no doubt…. will take the trolley to work in the morning.. grin

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#2547619 - 11/29/13 07:35 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
orangefunk Offline
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Posts: 3185
OK. Just got the CP4 this afternoon and spent a few hours on it on and off (4hrs).

My initial impressions are that the keyboard feel is really nice. Probably not as good as the RD700GX action I had (I don't feel the Yamaha CP4 has the 'escapement' feature) it's also much lighter than my old RD700 too. Nice that the keys are made of wood. The case looks cool too…

However sound wise I am a bit mixed about the CP4. Maybe Yamaha just isn't my bag because I honestly don't hear any significant difference between this and my old Yamaha P120 and boards of that brethren..

Compared with my experience of the Nord Stage 2 piano in the summer, I feel the Yamaha sounds a bit dead in comparison. There isn't that body of sound that you get like the Nord Stage with the sustain engaged.. there doesn't seem to be any soundboard resonance at play here. The Nord just filled me up and inspired me… I just don't feel anything with the CP4. They are good sounds no doubt but not really any advance for me. The main advance is the smoothness between velocities… barely noticeable. Great recordings too… but the blend just doesn't come together for me. YMMV.

I was pleased however with the Rhodes 75 sound. That is about the best Rhodes I have heard so far in a digital… still some way off but it had great character. Good attack portion and rich sustain. No velocity switches too…. now if only the Nord keyboards had a similar concept...

I feel the CP4 could be just the ticket for some people… but for me I am already coming to the conclusion of returning it (luckily no costs incurred except for return postage!).

I am gonna hold out for Nord Stage 3 or Nord Stage 2EX. Different price bracket I know but I really loved that board...

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#2547643 - 11/29/13 09:14 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Moonglow Online   content
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Thank you for that review, orangefunk. I had a similar experience with the highly anticipated arrival of my Kronos, only to be disappointed shortly thereafter. A lot of folks connect with Yamaha digital pianos, but I have never been one of them. Like you, I enjoy the character of the Nord pianos so I'm holding out for the next edition of the Stage.
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#2547652 - 11/29/13 09:44 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moonglow]
orangefunk Offline
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I think it just goes to show that we all like different things. For most people, and much better piano players then I will ever be no doubt, I would think the CP4 is gonna be an excellent choice.

I just gelled with the Nord Stage 2 and think that will be the way to go… but as that is probably gonna be replaced I am going to hold out for that.

I just played the CP4 again and I think there is a lot of good stuff happening there. The CFX sample does sound much better than any Yamaha digital so far… but I dunno… unlike the Nord Stage 2 and Roland RD700GX I am missing some harmonic blend when notes are played together or when the sustain is engaged.

I just played that Rhodes 75 again and it is great… not quite accurate but as close as they have come so far I think..

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#2547655 - 11/29/13 09:56 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
+ 1 on your overall assessment.

Originally Posted By: orangefunk
unlike the Nord Stage 2 and Roland RD700GX I am missing some harmonic blend when notes are played together or when the sustain is engaged.

That was something that I noticed, too. It brought to mind my old FP-4, which was remarkably good at blending, harmonically.

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#2547661 - 11/29/13 10:28 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Moonglow Online   content
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Registered: 03/15/03
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Loc: Northwest Indiana
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
I think it just goes to show that we all like different things. For most people, and much better piano players then I will ever be no doubt, I would think the CP4 is gonna be an excellent choice.....

+1

I've heard other musicians play Yamaha DPs, and they sound fantastic. I heard someone play a CP-5 a while back and the clarity was amazing.
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#2547709 - 11/29/13 02:21 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Moonglow]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Neil, I think you've confirmed what I feared about the CP4 - that I could end up trading that vibrant, visceral quality of the Nord just to have effectively a more controllable touch. Given what I would lose on selling the NS2, combined with the loss of the option of running a single board on gigs (I can scrape by with the Nord B3 to an extent I just couldn't with the Yamaha) I've decided to avoid the CP4's siren song, hope for an OS upgrade to match the NP2's and await the next Stage.
_________________________
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#2547734 - 11/29/13 04:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Yeah Aidan, you're probably of a similar taste to me piano wise. I think you do the wise thing. Wish I had just gone with a Stage 2 when I was mulling over it and the SV1… and then the Kronos….. would have made life a lot easier… and cheaper! grin

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#2547738 - 11/29/13 05:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Neil, I think you've confirmed what I feared about the CP4 - that I could end up trading that vibrant, visceral quality of the Nord just to have effectively a more controllable touch. Given what I would lose on selling the NS2, combined with the loss of the option of running a single board on gigs (I can scrape by with the Nord B3 to an extent I just couldn't with the Yamaha) I've decided to avoid the CP4's siren song, hope for an OS upgrade to match the NP2's and await the next Stage.


Interesting that the CP4 is not quite the total package, 'Holy Grail' that it first appeared to be. While I'm sure I'd find it smooth to play, etc., I suspect that it had enough corners trimmed sonically that, as a result, the market impact is not quite as intense as what the CP5 produced.

The 'unofficial' word is that there will be no Stage 2 "EX" option, but that Nord is busy at work on the next Stage model - which we'll likely see by 2015. I didn't get the impression that we'd see the Stage 3 (?) at Winter NAMM, though my contact wouldn't rule that out 100%. Maybe they'll spring the concept sometime in 2014, IDK... After seeing the Stage 1 in 2006, the EX a couple years later, then the Stage 2 in 2011, I figured there'd be some breathing room after getting my Stage 2 - plus another EX option, all before hearing of an imminent Stage 3. Guess I figured wrong. Clavia must be feeling some competition in that market..
It's aggravating, in that I purchased the Stage 2 for certain things, but also planned on an "EX" upgrade to address a couple of other things. My Stage 2, 76 is out on rental for much of December, and the client has indicated an interest in purchase; considering the above, I just might do that.

Like the Roland SuperNatural tones in my JP50 the Nord pianos have had a place in my rig, and certainly fit well for particular tunes; but Yamaha has always provided a broad, overall coverage for anything I play - from a late 80's TX-1P to an S90XS, at present. For a piano gig I'd take the S90XS out over my Stage 2 every time, the only exception being an extremely tight space - which, actually, the JP-50 pianos can handle fine.
_________________________
"....But Tonto he was smarter. And one day said, "Kemo sabe: Kiss my ass I bought a boat, I'm going out to sea" - Lyle Lovett

"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2547748 - 11/29/13 06:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
Nadroj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 280
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
I'm not saying anything new here, but it's the sort of thing you just can't win with unless you try it yourself and decide what you like. I read here "the new CP4 [or whatever] has one of the best piano sounds since [keyboard]." I recently spent ~45 minutes inside my local Yamaha/Casio dealers trying things, including the new Privias, etc, and while I was impressed; meh.

Same goes for the SuperNATURAL - some people say they like the studio grand - I found it completely unusable. Concert Grand was all I could see myself using live. Yet there have been times when I've let other keyboard players use my RD700 at smaller gigs; I'd go on after their slot to get things set up and find that they'd been using Bright Grand or Bright Concert piano patches - patches I'd never dream of using live, but there they were, using them in the same gig. And to be honest, until I went up after and visually saw what they were using, I didn't know that they were using anything different. Hell, after tweaking it to pieces, I'm getting a better piano sound out of my wee Juno Di (taking velocity differences into consideration) than I used to get out of my RD!
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#2547783 - 11/30/13 03:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Nadroj]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
I think even in the shop its hard to tell. I spent about 8hrs on and off with mine at home playing it through Beyer Dynamic DT770 Pros and Adam A7 speakers and at first I found the experience completely cold… then I warmed to it a little as I got used to the action and touch but still wasn't exactly bowled over by it.

Mine was sent back 20 mins ago. Post is expensive over this side of the water ($60!) but I think I made the right decision overall.


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#2547794 - 11/30/13 05:22 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 2093
You should adjust the type and paramters of the main chorus, and reverb, and the per layer mic-effect extensively. It can get those warm sounds. Trow in a layer, and you can even go Steinway-ish with it. You wouldn't think so from the often warbly and slightly off-sounding presets, but it can. And then it can sound full-88 and full range (real low and highs), too, and then the eq starts to act powerful, but you'd need to know about mid-low and reverb mixing, it isn't like as easy as selecting a sample, I know because I tried, it just doesn't give the good stuff away. Also, the pretty unique Spectral Component Modeling can give really strong and extremely sustained sounds, even on very accurate monitoring, and best of all, especially after the apparently necessary sound adaptions the Lexicon is very satisfied with it and becomes very alive with the sound (even with the rom patches)...

T.

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#2547803 - 11/30/13 06:53 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: cphollis]
Home Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 1
I've just returned to playing my cp50, having spent a long time in the land of the nord electro 3hp. While I love the nord sounds, nothing (IMHO) compares to the yamaha feel. I've owned many yamaha pianos ( p100, p150, p80, cp50) and, they've all felt great to me yet, I still wander for some reason. I still have my old p150 set up in my music room and even that still feels great. I don't know but I'm guessing that, yamaha makes there own keyboard mechanisms?? I've grown to absolutely despise fatar!! At least the one they use in the 3hp! It feels cheap and after less than a year feels like it's loosening! So , I'm happy to be back in the land of yamaha.......your review has me yearning for the CP4 !! Thanks

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#2547809 - 11/30/13 07:31 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Home]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: Home
I've just returned to playing my cp50, having spent a long time in the land of the nord electro 3hp. While I love the nord sounds, nothing (IMHO) compares to the yamaha feel. I've owned many yamaha pianos ( p100, p150, p80, cp50) and, they've all felt great to me yet, I still wander for some reason. I still have my old p150 set up in my music room and even that still feels great. I don't know but I'm guessing that, yamaha makes there own keyboard mechanisms?? I've grown to absolutely despise fatar!! At least the one they use in the 3hp! It feels cheap and after less than a year feels like it's loosening! So , I'm happy to be back in the land of yamaha.......your review has me yearning for the CP4 !! Thanks


To be fair.. the one in the Electro HP is a compromise intended to give the Electro series a weighted-like action without too much extra weight. The Stage 2 is a different beast action wise (I liked the action personally) and most definitely sound wise.

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#2547813 - 11/30/13 07:55 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Sorry to hear the CP4 didn't work out for you Neil. I hate returning stuff, a major pia. But better then holding onto it and trying to like it, then have to hassle with selling it.

Yeah would love to have the CP4 over here on a few gigs, for a test run, to see how it compares with my Nord.

Last night this particular restaurant I played trio, backing vocalist, in, had freakishly, great acoustics. I had one RCF TT08A on a speaker pole a few feet behind me and one off to the side in wedge position for the stereo image--and I have to say, the sound of the NP2 (Fazioli XL) was one of the best I'd experienced in the two years of playing Nords.

The sound thinning out on the top end seemed less exacerbated as well. So consequently the Fatar on the Nord bugged me less. Funny how acoustics & speasker placement can play such an important part (as well as a good bass player & drummer wink ) of your overall playing experience.

Originally Posted By: Moonglow
I've heard other musicians play Yamaha DPs, and they sound fantastic. I heard someone play a CP-5 a while back and the clarity was amazing.


It's been awhile since I sold my CP5 but dug up this short clip that I've posted here before. An uptempo Latin groove on the Kenny Barron classic.
https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris/voyage-kenny-barron-cp5-test

I'm still scouring CLs for a killer price on a CP1 or 5. cool


Edited by Dave Ferris (11/30/13 10:13 AM)
Edit Reason: new link
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2547836 - 11/30/13 09:57 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Sorry to hear the CP4 didn't work out for you Neil. I hate returning stuff, a major pia. But better then holding onto it and trying to like it, then have to hassle with selling it.

Yeah would love to have the CP4 over here on a few gigs, for a test run, to see how it compares with my Nord.


I am sure anything sounds good in your hands Dave! grin

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#2547837 - 11/30/13 09:59 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
S
It's been awhile since I sold my CP5 but dug up this short clip that I've posted here before. An uptempo Latin groove on the Kenny Barron classic.
https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris/voyage-kenny-barron-cp5-test

I'm still scouring CLs for a killer price on a CP1 or 5. cool


I can't play that track… says something about it being private.

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#2547840 - 11/30/13 10:12 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4349
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I clicked on the private as opposed to public button in soundcloud, try this one.
https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris/voyage-kenny-barron-cp5-test
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2547843 - 11/30/13 10:22 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Theo Verelst]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Theo Verelst
You should adjust the type and paramters of the main chorus, and reverb, and the per layer mic-effect extensively. It can get those warm sounds. Trow in a layer, and you can even go Steinway-ish with it. You wouldn't think so from the often warbly and slightly off-sounding presets, but it can. And then it can sound full-88 and full range (real low and highs), too, and then the eq starts to act powerful, but you'd need to know about mid-low and reverb mixing, it isn't like as easy as selecting a sample, I know because I tried, it just doesn't give the good stuff away. Also, the pretty unique Spectral Component Modeling can give really strong and extremely sustained sounds, even on very accurate monitoring, and best of all, especially after the apparently necessary sound adaptions the Lexicon is very satisfied with it and becomes very alive with the sound (even with the rom patches)...

T.


So dialing things in to fit both individual taste and the particular mix is where the best stuff is.... I think that varies from keyboard to keyboard, though - and for each player; though there have been some instruments with stronger, right-out-of-the-box pianos for a variety of situations, while others tend to need more tweaking.
While most here would pick a well maintained, grand piano over a DP, getting an acoustic piano to sound right for a particular mix takes a certain amount of tweaking; so Theo's references to EQ and reverb hold much merit. There are definite similarities between onboard shaping a DP piano tone, and outboard processing of a mic'd grand piano.

Unless I'm playing piano in a very open, acoustic oriented live situation, tones that are somewhat bright, even exaggerated fit best in an americana / rock mix. The past two weekends I gigged with a modern country / classic rock band, and the most effective piano Tone was a 3rd party, S90XS Voice that I had brightened up considerably - and the voice was already called 'Bright S90ES' (It's a hybrid creation - using both the basic, Motif CFS III sample and the larger S6 sample; and it's eerily accurate to the name). And interestingly enough, when I switched back to the original voice for a few ballads, it sounded somewhat bloated - even during solo intros, etc.. And I tend to run the Master EQ slightly low-mid scooped. Actually another 3rd party Voice - a bright, focused S6 sound - works better for ballads, and is a very playable solo piano.
_________________________
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#2547902 - 11/30/13 03:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So dialing things in to fit both individual taste and the particular mix is where the best stuff is.... I think that varies from keyboard to keyboard, though - and for each player; though there have been some instruments with stronger, right-out-of-the-box pianos for a variety of situations, while others tend to need more tweaking.
While most here would pick a well maintained, grand piano over a DP, getting an acoustic piano to sound right for a particular mix takes a certain amount of tweaking; so Theo's references to EQ and reverb hold much merit. There are definite similarities between onboard shaping a DP piano tone, and outboard processing of a mic'd grand piano.

Once again, I have to mention the importance of a good sound system. It's as much of a component of the sound as the instrument itself.

Seriously...a large part of the acoustic piano playing experience is that more than a few pounds of wood and metal are resonaning in front of you. Air is being moved, and vibrations created...in a big way. The whole room is part of the sound. It pretty much has to be.... cool

To duplicate that experience, you need components that can move air and create vibrations (incuding the low end) as accurately and viscerally satisfyingly as possible. You're already at a disadvantage in that a real piano radiates omnidirectionally, so duplicating that in a room with a speaker or two is a challenging prospect, to say the least. idk


Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Last night this particular restaurant I played trio, backing vocalist, in, had freakishly, great acoustics. I had one RCF TT08A on a speaker pole a few feet behind me and one off to the side in wedge position for the stereo image--and I have to say, the sound of the NP2 (Fazioli XL) was one of the best I'd experienced in the two years of playing Nords.

The sound thinning out on the top end seemed less exacerbated as well. So consequently the Fatar on the Nord bugged me less. Funny how acoustics & speasker placement can play such an important part (as well as a good bass player & drummer wink ) of your overall playing experience.

This. thu

dB
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#2547904 - 11/30/13 03:35 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
timwat Offline
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Acoustic engineers I've worked with insist the room is as much a part of the "instrument" as anything else upstream. I find myself wondering at the statements I've made so many times in the past about particular sounds, patches and keyboards "sitting better in the mix" than others…if I've never actually conducted objective, critical A/B comparisons out in the room from the audience perspective.
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#2547916 - 11/30/13 04:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Ferris]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I clicked on the private as opposed to public button in soundcloud, try this one.
https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris/voyage-kenny-barron-cp5-test


Nice version. I like how you guys can keep the line going, stay in the scales but then periodically go out… I still think the Nord sounds better but hard to tell when the music is as nice as that! grin

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#2547919 - 11/30/13 04:24 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
Beethree Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1123
Brought a CP4 home today and kind of love it. Mostly live I've been using my Nord Electro HP as a controller for Mainstage. I have grown to truly hate the action on the HP for piano. I also own a CP33 and the CP4 is a huge step forward in terms of the internal sounds, and the action is incredible for me.
However, in true Yamaha fashion, while their sales videos tout the ease of editing, that is only in terms of choosing "voices" as part of "Performances". Otherwise, same old cryptic somewhat counterintuitive multilevel menu interface.

One thing I need to figure out right away: How do you stop the Foot Contoller from affecting the volume on a piano patch? I did the obvious and shut the FC1 to "off" for the main patch, but this for some reason did not do it.

Also....am I correct in assuming that there is no way of saving a "voice".... only a performance? That seems weird. I edited a nice Wurly patch and would love to reuse it in other performances.
_________________________
Yamaha CP4, Hammond SK1, Mac Mini w/Mainstage, 2 JBL PRX612m's, Hammond A100,Leslie 147, Ventilator,Farfisa VIP, RMI electric piano, Young Chang 6'0" Grand, Voce V-5, Nord Electro 4 HP

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#2547922 - 11/30/13 04:28 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
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Registered: 02/27/10
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I think the Nord sounds like crap, in comparison, in almost all cases.

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#2547935 - 11/30/13 05:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
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Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: Beethree

One thing I need to figure out right away: How do you stop the Foot Contoller from affecting the volume on a piano patch? I did the obvious and shut the FC1 to "off" for the main patch, but this for some reason did not do it.

Also....am I correct in assuming that there is no way of saving a "voice".... only a performance? That seems weird. I edited a nice Wurly patch and would love to reuse it in other performances.


Beethree - welcome to the club. I'm still very much in love w/ my CP4.

To answer your question, if what you're trying to do is get an expression pedal to only change volume on the layer, what worked for me is going into the Utility menu, go to Controller, select the appropriate FC (for me it was FC2) and change the parameter to "Data". Expression and Volume were global for me and changed both Main and Layer.

Now, I enabled FC2 in Layer and disabled in Main, and the pedal allows me to swell in the layer voice.

And yes, an earlier post in this tread noted the CP4 is always in Performance mode, there is no Voice mode, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around storing entire performances.

For my gig next week I'm MIDI'ing the Kronos to the CP4 - man, it sounds huge, all sorts of options to bring in with two foot pedals, and this killer CP4 action to drive it all. I've got my sax player using my PC361 for 2nd keys and we sound enormous.
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#2547940 - 11/30/13 05:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: timwat]
Beethree Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1123
Thanks...Yes, disabling in utility, then re-enabling in the performance does what I need for this....I think I am going to have to delve into the zone menus to add a top keyboard.
Now my other apparently simple task......i have a Wurly patch, and want to get the mod wheel to control vibrato. And I can do that, but the mod wheel wants to make the basic sound "tweezy" as well. I have an organ patch where the mod wheel controls the rotor speed and ONLY that but when I change the underlying organ "voice" the mod wheel also does the tweezy thing. So that is apparently saved with the voice, and I can't seem to get at that. It is like the voices are packaged with certain uneditable parameters. Stupid if so.
But maybe I am simply missing the way in to tweak that stuff.

All that aside....the pianos sound great and the action is incredible.

*****Edited for future generations.....You shut that mod wheel modulation off in the Play mode menu*********


Edited by Beethree (12/01/13 05:22 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha CP4, Hammond SK1, Mac Mini w/Mainstage, 2 JBL PRX612m's, Hammond A100,Leslie 147, Ventilator,Farfisa VIP, RMI electric piano, Young Chang 6'0" Grand, Voce V-5, Nord Electro 4 HP

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#2547945 - 11/30/13 05:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Theo Verelst]
vanderSchoot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 147
Originally Posted By: Theo Verelst
I think the Nord sounds like crap, in comparison, in almost all cases.

Hi Theo (are you also Dutch ?, your name betrays a Dutch flavour of some kind.....:))

I went to my local music store yesterday and I tried all involved big names once again and for me the Nord sounds the most pleasant....that is a sample that isn't as static as others.
Kurzweil (your favourite) Artis was better than the previous triple strike, but still a far to rough ff sample that switches on far to easily.

i am a concert piano tuner.......so pretty capable of telling how and when true ff(f) comes into to overall sound perspective and how the harmonics are blend into the overall experience.
Both the Kronos (Japanese and German grand) and Kurzweil Artis(Steinway ?) haven't got that right out of the box.
No real grand exelerates into ff the way both samples are triggered from their perspective keyboards.

The Yamaha CP series fail to produce the mellow tone that a real CF111 can also provide.
A real Yamaha has the capabilties to be gentile and mellow when properly intonated.
Avant grand is much better if not ''perfect'' compared to the CP series in that regard.

Do people really believe that a real well maintenanced CF111 on a concert stage is this bright and static as what the CP series want us to believe ?
I personally think the CF111 is a very versatile grand....not so by listening to the CP series.

Only Nord (despite a flawed action) creates a top end that is much more blended in the overall playing experience.
I use the Fazioli and till date I am pretty convinced by the overall tone.From pp to ff without becoming ear piercing sharp.

If any real Yamaha grand would sound like the CP series I would immidiatly stick some needles into the hammerheads to back off the shrill upper harmonics.
And no a real grand doesn't sound muffled afterwards when done properly.
That isn't the case when I adjust the parameters on a digital. (have an Integra with the option of altering the hammer hardness)
The tone becomes muffled right away, where on a real grand you maintain the GOOD brightness and get rid of annoying harshness and unpleasant harmonics.

So we all look for other thing I guess.......
To me the Nord comes closest to what I want from a digital......to emulate the dynamics and tone of a real grand as close as possible....


Edited by vanderSchoot (11/30/13 05:29 PM)

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#2547947 - 11/30/13 05:50 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: vanderSchoot]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 2093
It sound like crap in comparison, check your amplification. Sample playing isn't the same as Spectral Components, no matter how you look at it. And get consistent, I am not interested in a dumb*ss bigotry game, at all.

Who said I prefer Kurzweil in general? I said it has a fundamentally different signal path design, which sometimes I try to find back by undoing a lot of crap that has been programmed on top, yo even have the chance to try some examples I made freely downloadable, which sound quite distinctly different than most others, and certainly than the Artis, whuch I don't care much for. I want the whole sound, and the chords to sound proper, not just a few notes, and to work with making music, that's the comparison I was talking about above.

I'd rather have you are a player (tuners messed up a lot of things in musical history), and I'm an Electrical Engineer, so I don't need expensive colored enclosures with standard DSP (I don't have anything *against* Nord/Clavia), I don't fall for the rather unreal hype, sorry, and honestly, I don't like Holland so...

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#2547951 - 11/30/13 06:14 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Theo Verelst]
Beethree Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1123
Different strokes for different piano players. I have owned 2 Nord Stages, an Electro 3, an Electro 4 HP, and have an unopened Electro 4D in my basement. I love the idea of one keyboard to rule them all, but the Nord's weighted keyboards are just so mushy and clunky to me. I can't be myself on them. The Yamahas by contrast, if nothing else FEEL right to me when I play them. It is not as much about the sound, as about the finger/sound connection. And that said even using a nice weighted action, the Nord sounds seem universally thin in the upper register to me. Just don't fit my playing style I guess.
_________________________
Yamaha CP4, Hammond SK1, Mac Mini w/Mainstage, 2 JBL PRX612m's, Hammond A100,Leslie 147, Ventilator,Farfisa VIP, RMI electric piano, Young Chang 6'0" Grand, Voce V-5, Nord Electro 4 HP

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#2547952 - 11/30/13 06:16 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
Beethree Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
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You can get a very nice mellow sound out of the CP4 if you delve.
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#2547979 - 12/01/13 12:52 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
orangefunk Offline
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Yep out of the box the CP4 is kinda bright but you can make it mellow using the filter and EQ. Still… I don't think its for me…

I remember when I had the P120 I used to have the brightness/tone slider backed off to its minimum and for me it still wasn't enough. So I think Yamaha just must like that brightness.

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#2547988 - 12/01/13 02:34 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
analogholic Offline
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Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: Beethree
but the Nord's weighted keyboards are just so mushy and clunky to me. I can't be myself on them. The Yamahas by contrast, if nothing else FEEL right to me when I play them. It is not as much about the sound, as about the finger/sound connection.


+1

In the unfortunate situation where I would have to choose between a better sound or a better finger to sound connection, it would be the latter.
If the Nord weighted keybeds wouldn´t have been so terrible, I would have bought a NP2/NS2 a long time ago...
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#2548004 - 12/01/13 05:29 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
orangefunk Offline
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Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 3185
Originally Posted By: Beethree
Different strokes for different piano players. I have owned 2 Nord Stages, an Electro 3, an Electro 4 HP, and have an unopened Electro 4D in my basement. I love the idea of one keyboard to rule them all, but the Nord's weighted keyboards are just so mushy and clunky to me. I can't be myself on them. The Yamahas by contrast, if nothing else FEEL right to me when I play them.


I was going to hook up my Kronos to that action to see if the CP4 could be a keeper but I got nervous about something happening to the unit so was in a hurry to get it boxed up and sent back asap. I think the CP4 action is definitely their best yet…

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#2548009 - 12/01/13 06:00 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Beethree Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
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Used the Cp4 a little bit as a controller with my Mainstage rig, just to mess about, and playing Ivory, Galaxy and Scarbee was incredible compared to using my Nord HP for the same purpose.
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#2548019 - 12/01/13 07:48 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
Doc Tonewheel Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 302
Loc: West Chester, PA
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Once again, I have to mention the importance of a good sound system. It's as much of a component of the sound as the instrument itself.

Seriously...a large part of the acoustic piano playing experience is that more than a few pounds of wood and metal are resonaning in front of you. Air is being moved, and vibrations created...in a big way. The whole room is part of the sound. It pretty much has to be.... dB


This cannot be overemphasized and was part of the reason why I enjoyed my CP300 so much. The internal speakers really helped create the overall finger to sound connection.
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#2548115 - 12/01/13 03:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 7004
Originally Posted By: Beethree
Used the Cp4 a little bit as a controller with my Mainstage rig, just to mess about, and playing Ivory, Galaxy and Scarbee was incredible compared to using my Nord HP for the same purpose.

...though the Nord HA action is much better than the HP

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#2548295 - 12/02/13 11:54 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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BadMister in da house...

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#2548498 - 12/03/13 08:25 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
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Loc: arrange window
Originally Posted By: Aidan
BadMister in da house...


cool !



A.C.
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#2548520 - 12/03/13 10:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2629
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Aidan
BadMister in da house...



Very educating and enlightening; loads o' potential here - for both current and vintage keyboard sounds.
Though I'd noticed some detailed functions / attrbutes trimmed from the CP1 / 5 (based on the experience and observations of users here), there's an awful lot of useful stuff in this instrument for working musicians. Especially intrigued by the inclusion of several preamp models for the ep's, plus the variety of effects available overall. For those who need a choice of authentic pianos tones for gigging - plus spot-on Rhodes, Wurli, clav, and CP-80 - the CP4 appears to cover the bases solidly, and then some. While there is already a strong degree of vintage mojo present with the ep's and clavs, I suspect that vintage, acoustic piano tones could be easily dialed in - via EQ settings and the onboard VCM effects. For my tastes, this makes the related parts of the Nord Stage 2 engine unnecessary; and while it's a cool instrument in many ways, I'm glad I didn't invest in a Korg SV-1.

While no one keyboard can quite be the ultimate, all-around instrument to cover each base, this one looks to be a highly versatile problem solver in a few important areas. I will have to play a CP4. Just need to check and see if there's one in Denver - about an hour away. Colorado is not a high temple for music technology wink
_________________________
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"Engage brain before speaking" - my dad.








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#2548766 - 12/04/13 08:28 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: allan_evett]
Beethree Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1123
Early Wish list:

I wish in master controller mode, when you select a slider to correspond to a zone you could:
1. Prevent/enable info from being transmitted by using the buttons above the sliders.
2. Freely assign CC#'s to the sliders.

Globally toggle master controller mode on and off. This would make it easier to maintain multiple permutations of gear setups with the same patches, etc.

I wish you could edit and store "voices" and their associated parameters....even though you can copy them from other performances, which is cool.
_________________________
Yamaha CP4, Hammond SK1, Mac Mini w/Mainstage, 2 JBL PRX612m's, Hammond A100,Leslie 147, Ventilator,Farfisa VIP, RMI electric piano, Young Chang 6'0" Grand, Voce V-5, Nord Electro 4 HP

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#2549227 - 12/05/13 11:29 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
Jazzed Offline
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Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 313
Loc: Canada
Time to join the party...



I actually do kind of understand some of the complaints by those who disliked it, in particular the want for more resonant sound when sustaining a lot of notes, but to me, despite that drawback, it was on the whole the best sounding and by far the most playable stage piano in store and it was a pretty obvious winning choice.

It's been a while since I actually played with a Nord Piano and the RD-700NX, so it was a lot of fun to actually do the comparison instead of just reading about them.

Both the Nord and the Roland had much more obvious sympathetic resonance, but the tone of the Yamaha (all three of its pianos really) and in particular the dynamics and the way the action connects with the dynamic response is awesome. I think that's what people mean when they talk about finger/sound connection, and I find that Yamaha does that best.

I haven't looked at the manual at all yet, but off-hand, does anyone know if there is a way to have the sound of held notes not cut off when you switch patches?

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#2549438 - 12/06/13 12:37 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Jazzed]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1119
I am probably not a big fan of digitally reproduced sympathetic string resonance.

I always thought that the Yamaha CP33 did a good job of avoiding too much of it. Of course it has some.

But when you start stacking tones in chords ( correct me if I am wrong) but some of this starts to clash.

There are boards that I am not going to mention that strive for this resonance. I think Yamaha has done well not too make it too much of a priority.

In the CP33( which I have heard a lot) the tones seem balanced and nothing sticks out like a sore thumb.

I haven't gotten near a CP-4 yet but I hope for an "update" on the CP33 principle, with of course some good EP's included in a lighter package, and with improved action.

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#2549460 - 12/06/13 01:51 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: LX88]
Dave Ferris Offline
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If you can execute "Joy Spring' or "Bouncin' with Bud" on it--it's a good action. cool
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2, RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers


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#2549471 - 12/06/13 02:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Jazzed]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazzed
the tone of the Yamaha (all three of its pianos really) and in particular the dynamics and the way the action connects with the dynamic response is awesome. I think that's what people mean when they talk about finger/sound connection

^This.^

I've found sample sets which, while individual notes or groups of a few notes examine well under a microscope, just aren't as much fun to play as others. The Giga stuff was really notable in that area for me.

I've always thought sample libraries had it really tough in that they never knew what brand of keyboard was going to be triggering them.... idk

dB
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#2549551 - 12/07/13 04:21 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Dave Bryce]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
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Registered: 02/27/10
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
[quote=Jazzed]...
I've found sample sets which, while individual notes or groups of a few notes examine well under a microscope, just aren't as much fun to play as others....
dB


Playing with the amount of energy that you put into the piano, by also working with the phase of the (lower) notes is another thing samples cannot do. And the resonance of those all strings is a complicated effect to get right, in my book!

T.

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#2549792 - 12/08/13 10:26 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Theo Verelst]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: Jazzed
the tone of the Yamaha (all three of its pianos really) and in particular the dynamics and the way the action connects with the dynamic response is awesome. I think that's what people mean when they talk about finger/sound connection

^This.^

I've found sample sets which, while individual notes or groups of a few notes examine well under a microscope, just aren't as much fun to play as others. The Giga stuff was really notable in that area for me.

I've always thought sample libraries had it really tough in that they never knew what brand of keyboard was going to be triggering them.... idk

dB

This cuts both ways. Having enough velocity layers of multisamples (generally 8+) allows you to reposition those velocity layers in a variety of ways. This can be done to affect tone, playability or both. Layers at the extreme(s) can be eliminated; others can be scrunched or given more space. For example, I resampled all of the Nord pianos from my 4D and brought them into the Kronos. I did my best to sample them at the velocity break, which was easier to accomplish with the EPs vs. the APs. The point is, once in the Kronos (or any sampler) I could adjust the layers to suit my playing style and get them to respond exactly how wanted, something that cannot be done on the native Nord. This has been a great frustration for me over the years with DPs and similar preset instruments that generally have prescribed sample mapping and limited adjustments for touch response (often just normal, hard, soft).

With software pianos you're fighting a number of things not present in hardware, mainly MIDI slop and latency. MIDI slop is still too prevalent (Logic, MainStage, DP) when used to play back/monitor synths live. Latency is what it is. The USB/Firewire era was a step backward from PCI but Thunderbolt fixes that. On the other hand, many soft piano provide a variety of sample mappings in their presets and I don't know of any that don't offer completely programmable velocity response.

I've heard the argument that clever programming trumps gigabytes of samples. I think it's true and untrue. What people need to understand about gigabyte instruments is there is no direct relationship between the number/size of the samples and the improvement in sound, for example you shouldn't expect a 1000MB instrument to sound 10x better than a 100MB instrument. Also if you have, let's say, a 4GB piano there is a VERY high probability you'll never hear all of those samples. Most, in fact, will remain unheard in normal playing. It's probably best to view the size requirements of these giga-streaming instruments as being created dynamically. For example, if a piano piece requires 330 notes (45 which are unique) with the longest being held for 4 seconds and it's determined this uses 230MB of samples, with sample streaming technology a 230MB piano is dynamically created for you when you play that piece. If the next piece requires 450MB, it too is dynamically created on the spot. In contrast, someone tasked with creating a piano in, let's say, 64MB of RAM/ROM from 4GBs of raw samples has a challenge ahead of him. Compromises are made and clever programming employed in order to get it all to fit and still sound right. And these can sound good, but often depending on what is played and how fussy/observant one is. One of the problems for me is that often the more I play these, the more compromises my ear uncovers and the more they bug me. Also, understand if that same "230MB piece" is played using the non-streaming 64MB RAM/ROM sample, not all 64MBs are used. Like the 4GB, many notes and velocities are never heard. As it wasn't created dynamically, it might have been more like 15-20MBs of samples that were actually heard.

Regarding the Yamaha CPs, I fully agree that the finger-to-sound connection is probably the best feature of these DPs. I had the CP-1 very early on (bought one of the NAMM demo units prior to them being readily available in stores). I believe this exceptional finger-to-sound connection is the result of a) an excellent, HIGHLY responsive action, b) the tonal change for each note is completely linear (first in a Yamaha DP), c) no MIDI slop/latency. It's a players delight, so long as you're delighted with the overall sound. I think out of all these DPs, the Nord sounds the best. Their large pianos are very nicely crafted and you’re hearing pure samples that were recorded with some degree room ambience. Nord's use of long loops, long attack portion and minimal stretching goes a long way in creating pianos that have minimal audible compromises. With Roland and Yamaha they’re using technology to produce linear touch response that I feel adds artificialness, sterility to the sound—not huge but enough that I wouldn’t record with either where I would with the Nord. For live playing I don’t see it as a big deal at all. If you play better on the Yamaha CP-4 than anything else (a very real possibility), that IS a big deal and could easily trump all other concerns.

Lastly, this isn’t really a response to Dave (he knows this stuff better than I) but rather to a number of things posted above.

Busch.

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#2549796 - 12/08/13 10:41 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: burningbusch]
timwat Offline
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Busch, great post. Thanks, very helpful in clarifying concepts to a non-programmer like me.
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#2549797 - 12/08/13 10:45 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: burningbusch]
ITGITC? Offline
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Busch - thank you for this insight.

Have you any links to additional information on this topic that you can share? (Have you written white papers or books?)

Thanks,

Tom

PS - I'm still using the Firebox you sold me a few years back. Thanks for that!

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#2549807 - 12/08/13 11:21 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
orangefunk Offline
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I think in digi-piano land there really is no "one size fits all". I too like the Kronos pianos esp if being controlled from a good keyed (I only have a K61 as I sold my RD700GX a few months back). I also like the Nord Pianos and the V-Piano (which doesn't get much love these days!)…

We certainly live in a different world from 1980s when I first started playing. All I had back then was RD300S (the old one!) and I thought that was the bees knees thru my 12 bit Alesis Midifex… so did a lot of my band mates… grin

I really do wish I could have loved the CP4 because the action and the E-Piano (Rhodes 75) was really cool… but I've had so many digital pianos over the last decade that I guess I expected more…

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#2549818 - 12/08/13 11:51 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
I resampled all of the Nord pianos from my 4D and brought them into the Kronos. I did my best to sample them at the velocity break, which was easier to accomplish with the EPs vs. the APs. The point is, once in the Kronos (or any sampler) I could adjust the layers to suit my playing style and get them to respond exactly how wanted, something that cannot be done on the native Nord.

Very interesting project! How do you feel the results compare to, not just playing the Nord pianos from within the Nord (triggered from weighted action), but also to playing the native Kronos pianos? Did you find a way to duplicate/simulate the Nord's string resonance effect, or did you just feel it was a worthwhile trade-off? (Though the 4D does not have as sophisticated version of the string resonance as the Nord Piano and Nord Stage 2 do to begin with.)

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#2549824 - 12/08/13 12:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Aidan Offline
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The sticking point of the Nord, long term, for me comes back to both the action and available velocity curves. I played a pretty ancient Clavinova in church this morning (CVP207) and although the stock grand piano sound isn't pinch on contemporary instruments, but I was still able to play more expressively on it than I can on my Stage.

I really want Nord to hurry up and upgrade the OS of the Stage so we get the new velocity curve featured on the NP latest update. I've heard mixed opinions about this – I know Dave Ferris didn't feel it was that significant.

If I agree, I think the New Year will probably see me switch allegiances to the CP4, to be frank, but I want to get the holidays and my tax bill out of the way before I make a move!
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#2549825 - 12/08/13 12:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
AnotherScott Offline
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If someone feels that the Nord would work for them if only they could better customize the velocity response, I think a solution could be to turn Local Off, go MIDI Out into one of these:
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm
and then go from there back into the MIDI In.

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#2549834 - 12/08/13 12:49 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: ITGITC?]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
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Originally Posted By: ITGITC?

Busch - thank you for this insight.

Have you any links to additional information on this topic that you can share? (Have you written white papers or books?)

Thanks,

Tom

PS - I'm still using the Firebox you sold me a few years back. Thanks for that!


Thanks Gas, no I haven't seen much written about this. I'm just making it up as I go, so reader beware. Glad to hear the FB is getting use.

Busch.

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#2549836 - 12/08/13 12:53 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Very interesting project! How do you feel the results compare to, not just playing the Nord pianos from within the Nord (triggered from weighted action), but also to playing the native Kronos pianos? Did you find a way to duplicate/simulate the Nord's string resonance effect, or did you just feel it was a worthwhile trade-off? (Though the 4D does not have as sophisticated version of the string resonance as the Nord Piano and Nord Stage 2 do to begin with.)


I haven't done a lot of comparisons between the the K and the original, only to say I think most people would be hard pressed to hear a difference between a phrase played back on one or the other. There is an FX on the Kronos that simulates pedal down resonance. Used lightly and properly EQed it can help to fill in the cracks.

Busch.

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#2549839 - 12/08/13 01:00 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
The sticking point of the Nord, long term, for me comes back to both the action and available velocity curves. I played a pretty ancient Clavinova in church this morning (CVP207) and although the stock grand piano sound isn't pinch on contemporary instruments, but I was still able to play more expressively on it than I can on my Stage.


Goes to show it really is a personal thing. To me, clavinovas are generally as responsive as an anvil and, accordingly, I tend to play as expressive as a blacksmith when I have to use one.

Despite the light action and sub-optimal velocity curves, the NP is the one that gets out of the way and lets me just do my thing. Mostly.
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#2550046 - 12/09/13 09:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: zephonic]
orangefunk Offline
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Yeah, I dunno if the feel of the Nords changed during their production run but two I played this year felt great… pretty Fender Rhodesy even… maybe not for all though eh? grin

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#2550140 - 12/09/13 02:04 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Aidan Offline
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Neil, I think the EP velocity curves are fine - you can go from "really pounding it" to "hiccup and it barks" with no problem. The pianos really need a notch back from the heaviest touch, and this is where I'm hoping an OS update might help, as it seems to have done somewhat on the NP. Scott, the MIDI solutions box is interesting but rather fiddly to set-up each time, and not cheap at over 100UKP from Thomann.
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#2550156 - 12/09/13 03:08 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
orangefunk Offline
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I agree Aidan, seems a shortcoming not to permit any editing with respect to velocity curves. Not sure of the rationale really...

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#2550193 - 12/09/13 05:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Scott, the MIDI solutions box is interesting but rather fiddly to set-up each time, and not cheap at over 100UKP from Thomann.

In terms of settings, you don't have to set it up each time, it remembers your last settings. Or if you meant the nuisance of physically setting it up, I'd look for a way to velcro it to the board and leave a couple of short MIDI cables permanently connected, so it's just "there." The issue there becomes one of making sure your case accommodates it (i.e. allows you to put the board into the case with things plugged into its MIDI ports, and clearance for the "lump" that is the box itself). Maybe some cut-outs in the foam, if it's custom fitted that way.

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#2561942 - 01/16/14 07:36 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: AnotherScott]
Aidan Offline
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OK, so what sort of idiot buys a DP with NAAM only days away? Er...



blush

Back story: I had a call in to Aaron at the gloriously-named PMT in Manchester to give us a shout when they had one in. Earlier this week, he called me, and I went up today to check it out...

Yeah, I could've waited for NAAM but nothing from there is likely to be available until halfway through this year. I'd obviously seen the new Roland and, bleh. My bread and butter gigs have always been weddings and although the NS2 sounds great and plays OK, I badly needed a more conservative-looking axe. This is it.

More detailed comments in a few days but for now, yes, it plays as well as others here have told you and sounds very nice. An hour or so on it has been something of a wake-up call to tone up hands - I've been playing the Stage almost 90% of the time for the last couple of months, with few opportunities to sit down at my upright. It really shows on brief acquaintance with the Yamaha.

Others will probably want to be sensible, sit back and wait for NAAM but I just felt the time was right. Even if Nord come up with a hugely improved Stage 3, with a great action, it would still be red. There's only really Kawai to show their hand and although I love their acoustics, I've never felt the same love for their digitals.

Now, please excuse me, I need to go work those chops up a bit!
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#2561957 - 01/16/14 07:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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How soon before it goes up in the Garage Sale? Anyone want to start a pool?

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#2561961 - 01/16/14 08:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: D-Bon]
Aidan Offline
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smile Don't hold your breath, Dana!
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#2561968 - 01/16/14 08:17 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: orangefunk]
Beethree Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1123
Originally Posted By: orangefunk
Yeah, I dunno if the feel of the Nords changed during their production run but two I played this year felt great&#133; pretty Fender Rhodesy even&#133; maybe not for all though eh? grin


The Electro HP and the StageII (and Piano) apparently use different weighted actions, with the Electro being the weaker of the bunch. I could not get on with the Electro HP, and used to own a Stage EX, which I found similar. I'd like to play a Stage II to check it out, but I have abandoned the "one board to rule them all" philosophy.
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#2561975 - 01/16/14 08:56 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Beethree]
The Piano Man Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 71
Congrats Aidan, great choice! I own a Stage 2 as well and know what you mean about the action. I have been eyeing up the CP4... great action, nice bright Yamaha piano tones, xlr outputs, sleek black design, 17.5kg... What's not to like?

Very disappointed on initial look at the RD800. My first ever piano was a Roland RD but the new model just doesn't impress me... It looks cheap and plastic, sounds average in the videos I've seen, has a figure of 8 power socket, just seems dull overall and still weighs over 21kg. Of course, I should wait to try it in person but... Unimpressed so far

Enjoy the CP4!
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Technics P30

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#2561994 - 01/16/14 10:07 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: The Piano Man]
BradD Offline
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Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 29
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I got mine yesterday. So far I'm very impressed. In addition to the great acoustic pianos and Rhodes, the strings were a nice surprise. I found them very useable.
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Yamaha CP4, MainStage 3 on MacBook Pro, 1963 Hammond A102 w/ Leslie 147, 1974 Fender Rhodes Mark I, Wurlitzer 200a, Roland XP-80, Roland JP8000, Roland Juno 60

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#2561995 - 01/16/14 10:14 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: Aidan]
Manolios Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Germany
It's a great board, a biiig step up and improvement from the CP5. I love it and didn't want to wait either...

Congrats and enjoy!
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#2561998 - 01/16/14 10:17 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 - first impressions [Re: BradD]
Theo Verelst Online   sleepy
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 2093
A short trick for a fast edit impression: throw out the mic-simulation, put in a eq in the insert instead, change the global chorus effect to another than the standard one, and mix it in while trying a few mid range chords.

T

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#2562009 - 01/16/14 10:38 AM