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#2527350 - 09/13/13 04:50 PM Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4
The Piano Man Offline
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Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 71
These two recent releases seem to be at competing price points and with similar feature sets.

Which would you choose, and why?
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#2527353 - 09/13/13 05:19 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: The Piano Man]
Moonglow Offline
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Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 3467
Loc: Northwest Indiana
That could shape up to be a good showdown. Really look forward to some hands-on time with both.
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#2527354 - 09/13/13 05:22 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: The Piano Man]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 6890
With the caveat that I haven't laid a finger on either one of them, I can say that, personally, I'd pick the Yamaha for the lighter weight and better action (better action assumed based on playing a CP5 which should be in the ballpark of a CP4, and a couple of TP100 based boards that should be in the ballpark of the Kurz).

That said, the Kurz has a couple of major advantages of its own... the KB3 drawbar organ mode, and the availability of those sliders as real time controls for other sounds. It's not a slam dunk. We'll have to see how the actual piano sound compares.

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#2527401 - 09/14/13 12:38 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: AnotherScott]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 2564
Loc: Westville, IN
With the advent of the CP4, I've been curious about how the two might compare.
While there is only a single new piano tone in the Artis ( vs. the CP4's new CFX and revamped S6 Voices), it's quite a massive and detailed piano, plus there is a lot that can be done with the instrument that isn't quite the same on the CP4:
It has a competitive, modeled organ engine, Kore64 tones, and a basically a 'best of PC3' soundset. From the demos I've heard it sounds professionally competitive with the CP4. That said, the CP4 does seem to be quite a strong digital piano that also incorporates a 'tried and true' synth engine.
I doubt that I'll be able to play both instruments for comparison - especially in my particular market, at this time. But it will be interesting to hear what fellow players have to say about these two keyboards..
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#2527486 - 09/14/13 11:06 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: allan_evett]
David Loving Offline
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Where might I test drive them. Why compare them on paper? idk
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#2527494 - 09/14/13 11:22 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: David Loving]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
When I was gigging with the Numa Piano, the TP100 was an acceptable tradeoff for a super-lightweight board. I would not purchase any 40+lbs board with that action. Between those two, it would be CP4 all the way for me. If I wanted KB3, I'd buy a used PC361 as a second tier.

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#2527559 - 09/14/13 07:51 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: voxpops]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3403
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The weight is the big differentiator for many of us, myself included.

Personally, I think Yamaha has clocked the popularity of the Casio Privias (and, to a lesser extent, the Nord Piano and Stage) and has realised that people no longer want to haul 25kg pianos around. The majority of its potential customers for instruments at this price point are ageing weekend warriors for whom weight is getting to be a big factor. By the same token, I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of top-end Motifs isn't also significantly lighter.

I'm going to seriously look at the CP4 once it arrives. The Stage is great as a one-board solution to take to many gigs, but it is a compromise on all fronts. The pianistic response available from the keybed is limited, and most of the piano samples sound thin at the top. The synth section samples sound pretty rudimentary compared with your average rompler. And I already have a PC361 for that stuff anyway.

Make or break for me could be mono performance – the CP5 in mono is abominable. Dave Ferris's brief experience of the CP4 in mono seems to point to better things. Let's hope so.
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#2527564 - 09/14/13 09:13 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Aidan]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
By the same token, I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of top-end Motifs isn't also significantly lighter.


I would be surprised if there was a next-gen Motif.
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#2527587 - 09/15/13 05:54 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: zephonic]
Marillion Offline
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Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 265
Loc: UK
Voxpops...just wondered what your thoughts were on the CP4 given you seem quite happy with the Roland FP-50?

I was thinking of upgrading from an FP4-F for the slightly better action of the FP-50 but am now tempted by the CP4.

However the lack of speakers is a factor...I do have a pair of home stereo speakers that I use as monitors but it's nice to mix those with the onboard setup. Plus there are the quiet gigs where they also suffice quite nicely.

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#2527604 - 09/15/13 07:14 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Marillion]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Marillion
Voxpops...just wondered what your thoughts were on the CP4 given you seem quite happy with the Roland FP-50?

I was thinking of upgrading from an FP4-F for the slightly better action of the FP-50 but am now tempted by the CP4.

However the lack of speakers is a factor...I do have a pair of home stereo speakers that I use as monitors but it's nice to mix those with the onboard setup. Plus there are the quiet gigs where they also suffice quite nicely.

Personally, if I had an FP-4F, I don't think I'd upgrade to the FP-50, with the improvements being so marginal.

My FP-50 is for solo/quiet gigs, and there are relatively few DPs with reasonably powerful built-in speakers that are also lightweight and have a high quality piano emulation.

I have not played the CP4, but if it lives up to expectations it could be a great gigging board. It's possible I might consider replacing my NP88 with it, mainly for the (potentially) better action, and therefore finger/sound connection.

The CP4's EPs are more detailed and more authentic than those in the FP-50, it also has more APs to choose from (not just variations); how those APs will play in comparison to Roland's SN piano remains to be seen. There is more functionality on the CP4's front panel, and the addition of pitch/mod wheels makes it more versatile. But it's not a self-contained solution. If you can get by without the things it lacks, it might be a nice upgrade from your FP-4F.

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#2527617 - 09/15/13 07:48 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: voxpops]
Marillion Offline
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Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 265
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: Marillion
Voxpops...just wondered what your thoughts were on the CP4 given you seem quite happy with the Roland FP-50?

I was thinking of upgrading from an FP4-F for the slightly better action of the FP-50 but am now tempted by the CP4.

However the lack of speakers is a factor...I do have a pair of home stereo speakers that I use as monitors but it's nice to mix those with the onboard setup. Plus there are the quiet gigs where they also suffice quite nicely.

Personally, if I had an FP-4F, I don't think I'd upgrade to the FP-50, with the improvements being so marginal.

My FP-50 is for solo/quiet gigs, and there are relatively few DPs with reasonably powerful built-in speakers that are also lightweight and have a high quality piano emulation.

I have not played the CP4, but if it lives up to expectations it could be a great gigging board. It's possible I might consider replacing my NP88 with it, mainly for the (potentially) better action, and therefore finger/sound connection.

The CP4's EPs are more detailed and more authentic than those in the FP-50, it also has more APs to choose from (not just variations); how those APs will play in comparison to Roland's SN piano remains to be seen. There is more functionality on the CP4's front panel, and the addition of pitch/mod wheels makes it more versatile. But it's not a self-contained solution. If you can get by without the things it lacks, it might be a nice upgrade from your FP-4F.


True...I think the action is the big draw of the CP4 for me. I've become used to the FP4-F's action but it isn't the most inspiring.
However I don't think I'm going to need 45 piano variations to choose from either, so perhaps the CP40 would still be an improvement (since I don't really think wooden keys and graded actions matter too much).

Just thinking out loud here...

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#2527627 - 09/15/13 08:30 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Marillion]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 6890
Originally Posted By: Marillion
However I don't think I'm going to need 45 piano variations to choose from either, so perhaps the CP40 would still be an improvement (since I don't really think wooden keys and graded actions matter too much).

The CP40 has a graded action as well. But the feel of the action is presumed to be substantially different. The CP40 seems to have the same action as the CP33, vs. the CP4 being a graded variation of the action from the CP5. Putting together pieces from a couple of threads, it also seems likely that the CP40 is a two-sensor board, and the CP5 is a triple.

There are a lot of other advantages to the CP4, as referenced in the main CP4 thread. Regardless of the number of variations, the CP40 has one basic piano sample in it (CFIII), the CP4 has three (adds S6 and CFX). Also numerous other additional sounds. Three-part vs. two-part for more flexible internal split/layer function (though I'm not sure yet of all the particulars). Internal power supply, balanced outs, second foot controller jack, more EQ.

On the other side of the lineup, if you don't need the newest piano sound and the wide variety of secondary sounds, a CP33 is still a lot less expensive than a CP40.


Edited by AnotherScott (09/15/13 09:25 AM)

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#2527651 - 09/15/13 09:20 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: AnotherScott]
voxpops Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Regardless of the number of variations, the CP40 has one basic piano sample in it (CFIII), the CP4 has three (adds S6 and CFX). Also numerous other additional sounds.


Fixed! wink

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#2527653 - 09/15/13 09:25 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: voxpops]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 6890
Whoops! Thanks for the catch, edited for the fix.

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#2527669 - 09/15/13 10:32 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: AnotherScott]
Marillion Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 265
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Marillion
However I don't think I'm going to need 45 piano variations to choose from either, so perhaps the CP40 would still be an improvement (since I don't really think wooden keys and graded actions matter too much).

The CP40 has a graded action as well. But the feel of the action is presumed to be substantially different. The CP40 seems to have the same action as the CP33, vs. the CP4 being a graded variation of the action from the CP5. Putting together pieces from a couple of threads, it also seems likely that the CP40 is a two-sensor board, and the CP5 is a triple.

There are a lot of other advantages to the CP4, as referenced in the main CP4 thread. Regardless of the number of variations, the CP40 has one basic piano sample in it (CFIII), the CP4 has three (adds S6 and CFX). Also numerous other additional sounds. Three-part vs. two-part for more flexible internal split/layer function (though I'm not sure yet of all the particulars). Internal power supply, balanced outs, second foot controller jack, more EQ.

On the other side of the lineup, if you don't need the newest piano sound and the wide variety of secondary sounds, a CP33 is still a lot less expensive than a CP40.


I see the point about the actions, and this would tip me towards the CP4. But if the CFIII sample in the CP40 is good and basically lifted from the CP-5 (which is well thought of), I don't understand why you would recommend the older CP-33 over the CP40? Surely that's a much older sample?

You listed the advantages of adding the S6 and CFX...my point really was that if a piano sample is good enough I can live with just one! Which CP4 owner would, for example, take the CFIII sample over the CFX when the latter is newer and apparently better, with longer sustain?

I can maybe understand the tonal differences with the S6 but, on the whole, I would bet most of the 45 piano presets in the CP4 will lie unused by its owners. Most will just use CFX/S6.


Edited by Marillion (09/15/13 10:33 AM)
Edit Reason: misquote!

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#2527757 - 09/15/13 07:55 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Marillion]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 6890
Originally Posted By: Marillion
[quote=AnotherScott]But if the CFIII sample in the CP40 is good and basically lifted from the CP-5 (which is well thought of), I don't understand why you would recommend the older CP-33 over the CP40? Surely that's a much older sample?

I'm not recommending the CP-33 over the CP-40. But it is a good value, and it does still have a good deal in common with the CP-40. I was pretty much extending the idea that, if you choose the CP-40 over the CP-4 largely because for $500 less, you're perfectly content not to have the latest piano sound sound, you can save another $700 if you go to the CP-33, and have a still older piano sound. ;-)

Originally Posted By: Marillion
You listed the advantages of adding the S6 and CFX...my point really was that if a piano sample is good enough I can live with just one! Which CP4 owner would, for example, take the CFIII sample over the CFX when the latter is newer and apparently better, with longer sustain?

Not everyone always agrees about which piano sound is better, or that the newest sound is always better. Or some people may prefer different sounds for different uses (i.e. rock vs. jazz or classical).

Originally Posted By: Marillion
I would bet most of the 45 piano presets in the CP4 will lie unused by its owners. Most will just use CFX/S6.

The 45 piano presets in the CP4 are 15 variations of CFX, 15 variations of S6, and 15 variations of CFIIIS. The CP40 gives you 15 variations of CFIIIS. Regardless of which piano someone chooses, I agree, many people will probably settle on one preset as their primary "go to" piano sound. But it's also nice to have variations, whether you need something brighter or mellower, honkytonk, whatever. But if you get the CP40, 15 piano sounds may sound like plenty to choose from, but they will all have a certain CFIIIS character. The CP4 gives you options that are more fundamentally different.

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#2527762 - 09/15/13 09:08 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: AnotherScott]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1118
The previous post brings up a lot of questions ( for me )

1. Which sample does the CP-33 use?

2. Which Yamaha piano uses the S6 sample?

3. Which sample does the CP-5 use ?

Wasn't the CP-50 supposed to be similar to the sample in the CP-5, but without the wooden keys? I can't tell the players without a scorecard here.

Beyond that, I have become very used to the sample in the Yamaha Nocturne that I have, which I assume uses the same sample that is in the CP-33.

I can't find anything not to like about it, particularly after having lived with it for so long.

I actually seem to prefer it to the CP-5 sample, once again probably because I have heard it so much , it just has become a standard for me.

I agree that newer may not always be more preferable too, as I experienced with the recent Roland "upgrades". Once again was used to the Roland Superior Grand and I found that the Supernatural "upgrades" tended to focus a bit more on upper harmonic overtones, which often equate to me as being a little bit less realistic sounding.

Anyway, of course I am excited to hear what the new Yamahas have to offer. Can you imagine 45 different piano sample variations that actually sound good and useful? Let's hope that they are.

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#2527763 - 09/15/13 09:14 PM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: LX88]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
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And as far as the Kurzweil Artis goes, I have never even seen one and they have been out for a while.

But then again the Casio PX-5S has not even made it to any of the stores near Portland Oregon as far as I know.

But I assume that we will be seeing some of the new Yamahas very soon due to the amount of clout that Yamaha seems to have.

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#2527812 - 09/16/13 06:10 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: LX88]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: LX88
And as far as the Kurzweil Artis goes, I have never even seen one and they have been out for a while.

No one has seen one, because they haven't shipped.

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#2527817 - 09/16/13 06:36 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: D-Bon]
Bif_ Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 537
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: LX88
And as far as the Kurzweil Artis goes, I have never even seen one and they have been out for a while.

No one has seen one, because they haven't shipped.


Getting your hands on one of these (to demo) may be quite difficult. I live in the Louisville, KY metropolitan area and the closest Kurz rep is in Ohio.

IMO this is a big problem for Kurzweil. They really need floor space in a big box music retailer (Sam Ash or Guitar Center) to compete.

Greg
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#2527819 - 09/16/13 06:45 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Aidan]
Bif_ Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 537
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: Aidan
The weight is the big differentiator for many of us, myself included.

The majority of its potential customers for instruments at this price point are ageing weekend warriors for whom weight is getting to be a big factor.


+1

I took my PC3X out over the weekend (something I rarely do) and it is at the limit of what I can move by myself. I don't have a roller bag for it (a huge problem) but taking it up and down steps is tiring as well as schlepping it into the trunk.

I'm almost to the point of not taking it out of the house any more. It's a shame as it excels in several areas.

Greg
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#2527822 - 09/16/13 07:01 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Bif_]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7310
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Bif_
They really need floor space in a big box music retailer (Sam Ash or Guitar Center) to compete.

They do. Or at least they should. The Guitar Centers here have a PC3LE8 and a SP4-8 on the floor. The Sam Ash in Manhattan has a SP4-7 and possibly another Kurzweil (can't remember).

And if you're interested in how the Artis's TP100 action plays, the SP4-8 and Nord Electro HP have it. (There are other boards that use the TP100 but you're unlikely to find them on the floor at GC or SA.)

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#2527823 - 09/16/13 07:01 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: LX88]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 6890
Originally Posted By: LX88
Which Yamaha piano uses the S6 sample?

CP1, CP5, S70XS, S90XS, Motif XF

All of those include CFIIIS samples as well.

Originally Posted By: LX88
Which sample does the CP-5 use ?

As you can deduce from the previous answer... S6 and CFIIIS.

Originally Posted By: LX88
Wasn't the CP-50 supposed to be similar to the sample in the CP-5, but without the wooden keys? I can't tell the players without a scorecard here.

There are a number of other differences, include the lack of the S6 sample in the CP50. Download the scorecard here:

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=49126

BTW, it's not simply a matter of the keys being wooden, the keys on the CP5 feel entirely different from the CP50, for reasons that I suspect have little to do with the presence of the wood.

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#2527825 - 09/16/13 07:17 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: D-Bon]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 2111
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: LX88
And as far as the Kurzweil Artis goes, I have never even seen one and they have been out for a while.

No one has seen one, because they haven't shipped.


+1

These discussions never cease to amaze me.

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#2527830 - 09/16/13 07:28 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: drawback]
AnotherScott Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 6890
Originally Posted By: drawback
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: LX88
And as far as the Kurzweil Artis goes, I have never even seen one and they have been out for a while.

No one has seen one, because they haven't shipped.


+1

These discussions never cease to amaze me.

Kurzweil contributed to this confusion with their August 9 press release that said it was "now shipping." Maybe they meant that the units had been loaded up onto a very slow boat from China.

http://kurzweil.com/news/51/

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#2527832 - 09/16/13 07:33 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: D-Bon]
Bif_ Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 537
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
Originally Posted By: Bif_
They really need floor space in a big box music retailer (Sam Ash or Guitar Center) to compete.

They do. Or at least they should. The Guitar Centers here have a PC3LE8 and a SP4-8 on the floor. The Sam Ash in Manhattan has a SP4-7 and possibly another Kurzweil (can't remember).


Wow, not my experience. I've been in GC's (and to a lesser extent Sam Ash) in Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Columbus, Kansas City, Nashville and St. Louis and NEVER saw a single Kurzweil.
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#2527837 - 09/16/13 07:52 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Bif_]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1118
The Artis hasn't even been shipped? As I recall, its debut was at Musicmesse, which happened in spring. So I assumed it was at least out there somewhere.

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#2527846 - 09/16/13 08:11 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: Bif_]
D-Bon Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7310
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Bif_
Originally Posted By: D-Bon
They do. Or at least they should. The Guitar Centers here have a PC3LE8 and a SP4-8 on the floor. The Sam Ash in Manhattan has a SP4-7 and possibly another Kurzweil (can't remember).


Wow, not my experience. I've been in GC's (and to a lesser extent Sam Ash) in Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Columbus, Kansas City, Nashville and St. Louis and NEVER saw a single Kurzweil.

Don't know what to tell you. A while back, Dave Weiser said the two models I mentioned were chosen specifically to be the floor models at GC.

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#2527847 - 09/16/13 08:13 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: LX88]
D-Bon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7310
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: LX88
The Artis hasn't even been shipped? As I recall, its debut was at Musicmesse, which happened in spring. So I assumed it was at least out there somewhere.




You know what happens when you assume...

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#2527851 - 09/16/13 08:19 AM Re: Kurzweil Artis vs. Yamaha CP4 [Re: LX88]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3403
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
It's listed by Bonners over here in the UK but they don't show availability on the website and as it's listed nowhere else here in Europe (including Thomann, who are usually among the first with new stuff), I assume it's not here yet. Over the pond, Kraft have it as "pre-order".

If it has the same action as the Nord Electro HPs, I'm rather baffled as to what makes the Artis so heavy, albeit it has 15 more keys. Not too fond of that action anyway, especially against the latest Yamahas.

Also, the Artis styling is pretty horrid - looks like something from the Studiologic stable around 1990, IMO.
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