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OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
#2504101 06/20/13 11:02 AM
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I consider myself an expert level pandora user (since 2009). Meaning, I generally have it dialed in so good that every song that comes on is either a favorite of mine or a new song that ive just discovered and becomes a new favorite. I know all the tricks to get pandora playing excellent stuff, i thought. But lately somehow, that darn algorithm sneaks in some poopers, to the point like yesterday where I hit my max thumbs down (skips essentially) for the day (12 limit).

I think the culprit might be mumford & sons, that opens up a world crap for pandora seed formula. You have to smoke out the seeds that seem to veer off the path a bit

Last edited by Greg Gallant; 06/20/13 11:14 AM.

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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504104 06/20/13 11:06 AM
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I just can’t figure out why Pandora thinks all roads lead to the blues.


Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me.
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Tonysounds #2504105 06/20/13 11:07 AM
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It also gets a little wacky when you have The Crystal Method, Bonobo, and Carole King in the same list.


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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504113 06/20/13 11:37 AM
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That's why I prefer Grooveshark. It plays exactly what I want to hear... no poopers.

laugh


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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Synthoid #2504138 06/20/13 12:22 PM
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If you don't want Pandora to act up, keep your hands away from her box.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
AnotherScott #2504153 06/20/13 12:54 PM
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I hate it when Pandora acts up too, like when they try to lower the rate they pay to songwriters. razz


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Joe Muscara #2504172 06/20/13 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
I hate it when Pandora acts up too, like when they try to lower the rate they pay to songwriters. razz


Really? Like the pay they wouldnt of had if pandora wasnt around?

http://www.pandora.com/static/ads/irfa/irfa.html


-Greg
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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504191 06/20/13 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant
Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
I hate it when Pandora acts up too, like when they try to lower the rate they pay to songwriters. razz


Really? Like the pay they wouldnt of had if pandora wasnt around?

http://www.pandora.com/static/ads/irfa/irfa.html


Did you post a link to Pandora to make a point about Pandora?? BWAHAAHAAA! laugh

Here, try this one. It's from ASCAP. Clonkety

Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Cygnus64 #2504197 06/20/13 02:39 PM
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-Greg
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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Cygnus64 #2504242 06/20/13 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
I hate it when Pandora acts up too, like when they try to lower the rate they pay to songwriters. razz


Really? Like the pay they wouldnt of had if pandora wasnt around?


It's bad enough that Pandora screws songwriters. It's even worse to see how casually musicians help them.


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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Steve Nathan #2504261 06/20/13 04:57 PM
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Steve, what kind of cars do you drive?


-Greg
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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504316 06/20/13 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve Nathan
Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant
Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
I hate it when Pandora acts up too, like when they try to lower the rate they pay to songwriters. razz


Really? Like the pay they wouldnt of had if pandora wasnt around?

http://www.pandora.com/static/ads/irfa/irfa.html


It's bad enough that Pandora screws songwriters. It's even worse to see how casually musicians help them.
This. I tend to optimistically assume that musicians that continue to use Pandora and Spotify are simply ignorant of the issue. Greg is trying to prove me wrong. smile


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Joe Muscara #2504326 06/20/13 07:25 PM
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OK, I'll bite. What exactly are you guys talking about and what are your opinions based on?

Bob


Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Jazzmammal #2504328 06/20/13 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal
OK, I'll bite. What exactly are you guys talking about and what are your opinions based on?
Originally Posted By: Cygnus64
Here, try this one. It's from ASCAP. Clonkety


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504332 06/20/13 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant
Steve, what kind of cars do you drive?
One that plays music at equitable royalty rates?


A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
kanker. #2504376 06/20/13 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: kanker.
Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant
Steve, what kind of cars do you drive?
One that plays music at equitable royalty rates?


or one that was made by workers getting fair pay. Definitely not one made in mexico were workers get $5 day, or Korea which has even worse pay. If I know Steve, he's driving a fine automobile by union workers with great pay maybe even made in the USA.
wave

Because I know Steve wouldnt want just musicians to make fair pay, and disregard other industries, and try to buy cheap stuff. Maybe he drives Lamborghini's, I hear the pay their is top dollar


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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504382 06/20/13 10:11 PM
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So your argument is

No one gets fair pay, so don't try to do anything about it and don't worry about supporting anything that does.

Do I have that right?


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Joe Muscara #2504391 06/20/13 10:46 PM
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All I'm saying is don't bitch slap me for liking Pandora, then turn around and get in your frickin Hyundai Eon and drive home.


-Greg
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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504394 06/20/13 10:57 PM
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And all I'm saying is, we pick our battles and support our fellow musicians.

P.S. My car was built in Japan. Thanks for asking. wave


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Joe Muscara #2504399 06/20/13 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
And all I'm saying is, we pick our battles and support our fellow musicians.

P.S. My car was built in Japan. Thanks for asking. wave


Watch out. Chances are that your Japanese car was likely made in USA. Open your driver door and look to see where is was assembled


-Greg
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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Joe Muscara #2504402 06/20/13 11:46 PM
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Each side is good at twisting numbers. I remember when internet radio was about to go away became they wanted to charge internet stations the same amount to stream a song to a single computer that radio stations was paying to broadcast to all of their listeners at once. Even the linked article at the ASCAP is trying to compare individual streams to area wide radio broadcast. They point out that a radio station broadcast hundreds of songs while Pandora does millions of streams. Well, if a stations has 30,000 listeners, that is 3 million listens for each 100 songs. Also, every example of royalties in that article involves songs with co-writers and the end each example with what an individual writer gets. What I don't see is how much the artist is getting compared to the writer. Maybe writers should also fight for more of that share.

I'm not against writers getting more, but anyone who understands numbers is going to see that article as an attempt at deception.

And by the way, I bought a Toyota Camry because I live in Kentucky and it was made in Kentucky.


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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504420 06/21/13 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant
Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
And all I'm saying is, we pick our battles and support our fellow musicians.

P.S. My car was built in Japan. Thanks for asking. wave


Watch out. Chances are that your Japanese car was likely made in USA. Open your driver door and look to see where is was assembled
I know where my car was built, thank you. In fact, I'm quite aware of where most things I buy come from, including food. Am I happy about all of those locations? No, but I try to make the choices with my eyes wide open. Similarly, I think those using Pandora, Spotify, and others should be doing the same.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Joe Muscara #2504436 06/21/13 03:15 AM
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What Rabid says about audience size is absolutely true. This plays into the equation of royalty payout, and it's the single biggest factor in this issue with Spotify/Pandora/Youtube/etc that people tend to either ignore or simply don't know about. Royalties are calculated by attempting to determine the audience that has been reached. A single play on a streaming site like Youtube or Pandora is considered to have reached an audience of 1 person. Makes sense right? Whenever I'm listening to Pandora, it's almost always just me. Occasionally in the car with another person while driving. A single play on commercial radio, however, could reach many thousands of listeners at once. Whoever has the radio on that station is hearing that song from a single play. That's why the rate at which streaming sites pay royalties is so much smaller per play. It could take up to 30,000 to 40,000 (or more) plays of a song on Pandora to reach the same size audience as a single play on a radio station in a large market such as NYC.

I'm not saying the royalty situation is perfect, but that's the way it works, and at least it makes sense to me. Hell, I'll always argue that I should be getting paid more. smile

Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
RABid #2504441 06/21/13 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: RABid
What I don't see is how much the artist is getting compared to the writer. Maybe writers should also fight for more of that share.


Writers have it pretty good, actually. For any royalties paid, 50% goes to whoever controls the publishing, and 50% goes to the writer(s). Who specifically gets how much depends on the particular arrangement struck between the parties involved. Sometimes the artists themselves are the writers, sometimes it's a collaboration between an artist and writer (Elton John/Bernie Taupin and Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter spring to mind), and sometimes the artist just performs a song written by someone else. In that last case, the writer gets the entire 50%. That's why guys like Max Martin and Luke Gottwald may be the richest people in the music business you've never heard of (they write songs for candy pop superstars like Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus, etc). But again, it depends on the situation. An artist might get a writing credit on a song for any number of reasons, even if it was mostly, or all, written by someone else.

Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Bridog6996 #2504748 06/21/13 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant
Steve, what kind of cars do you drive?
One that plays music at equitable royalty rates?


or one that was made by workers getting fair pay. Definitely not one made in mexico were workers get $5 day, or Korea which has even worse pay. If I know Steve, he's driving a fine automobile by union workers with great pay maybe even made in the USA.
wave

Because I know Steve wouldnt want just musicians to make fair pay, and disregard other industries, and try to buy cheap stuff. Maybe he drives Lamborghini's, I hear the pay their is top dollar



Sorry dude, but your analogy is flawed.
My song's aren't making less money on Pandora because better built songs from Japan and Germany are beating them in the marketplace. (speaking figuratively now). They're making less money because Pandora took them (without asking), and made a boatload of money from them. Then they turned around and said we aren't going to pay you what you think they're worth. we're only going to pay you a tiny fraction of what you want because selling songs is so hard. Then with the money we save by screwing you, we'll buy politicians who will make sure what we're doing is legal and pass more laws to let us cut your rate even lower.

Want to stick with your cars analogy?
They told GM that they had an idea for a great new way to sell cars, and helped themselves to thousands of Cadillacs, and sold them below dealer cost. Then they sent GM pennies on the dollar for the Cadillacs and said "that's all you get" because after all, selling cars is so hard. As GM dealers fell one by one, unable to get customers to pay more than Pandora charges for the same car, Cadillac drivers everywhere lamented how GM failed because they were "old technology", or that they deserved to fail because after all, they'd been one of those "Big Evil Corporations".


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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2504760 06/22/13 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: Greg Gallant


MC Hammer made $89 million in one year, back when gas was $1.20 a gallon and a new car was 9K. It's approaching Dr. Evil territory when they say they paid Adele ONE MILLION DOLLARS. Adele could probably record her farts and get $50 million at this point in time. laugh

The rubes will be kept happy, since it says that Adele got ONE MILLION DOLLARS. Then, the comments from articles will be "Those ungrateful whiny musicians are millionaires that want more". Ummm, the truth is that top songwriters with hits might get 500 bucks. The fact that Adele got ONE MILLION DOLLARS means that Pandora made a shitload of money off of her, and that's all. Lots of musicians are getting thousands and thousands of plays and getting $0.00.

Like anything else, there is a huge disparity in music. If Adele is getting ONE MILLION DOLLARS, it means squat. Pandora pays crap and is trying to pay even less than crap, which is why they purchased a radio station. Mexican-made cars and whatnot have nothing to do with it, except to serve as a distraction. It's a bad deal for songwriters and musicians, and it's as simple as that.

Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Cygnus64 #2504784 06/22/13 02:33 AM
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You're assuming those figures in the pic are actually facts Cyg....


A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Steve Nathan #2504931 06/22/13 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve Nathan



Sorry dude, but your analogy is flawed.
My song's aren't making less money on Pandora because better built songs from Japan and Germany are beating them in the marketplace. (speaking figuratively now).


Sorry to you.... Quality has nothing to do with this debate (and dont get me started on music quality in the business today). Your beef at its core is that the writers aren't getting "enough pay". You want more pay.... Pure and simple! So do I... I dont make enough either... I want more!


Everyone raise your hand if you want more pay?


But dont ever tell the consumers/customers stop listening to the radio! Thats just bad for business. Be creative, go on strike like the TV writers did... ask the government, thats works really well


-Greg
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Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
Mogut #2505032 06/22/13 05:15 PM
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This thread has been quite enlightening and has convinced me not to use Pandora anymore. mad

Sooo...Any suggestions for a similar alternative that pays artists and writers fairly? Spotify? Sirius? I should point out I don't mind paying for it. cool


><>
Steve
Re: OT: I hate when pandora acts up!
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Originally Posted By: Bucktunes
This thread has been quite enlightening and has convinced me not to use Pandora anymore.

I'm curious to know what less well-known people in the music industry outside of pop music think about Pandora. I'm streaming Górecki on my "Arvo Pärt" Pandora channel right now. This is music that I suspect doesn't earn a penny off of broadcast radio; not even the classical stations play it.

Larry.

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