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#2486704 - 04/20/13 07:01 AM Would like some advice
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
Hi, all.
I'm currently on the lookout for a new amp rig,(upgrading from a Peavey Vypyr 30)and I hope maybe you guys can help me.

Does anybody know what are the advantages and disadvantages of buying an extremely simple amp (something like a Marshal class 5 or a Fender Princeton Reverb or something of that sort) and then getting my crunch and distortion tones out of a couple of good pedals?

I play mostly rock kind of stuff, maybe edging on metal, a little hip-hop, and some punk. I play an Epiphone Les Paul standard.
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#2486714 - 04/20/13 07:23 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Strategery Offline
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Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 3232
Loc: Georgia USA
Hi H-A,

If you are interested, I have a pristine condition Egnater Rebel 20 head with 1/12 Celestion cabinet. I bought it new.
It's an all tube amp and I immediately replaced them with new JJ's tubes all around.
It is quiet and versatile and has a great tube sound...plus has effects loop.
Just $375....you pay shipping.

Just let me know if you are interested.
Thanks,
Randy

http://tinyurl.com/ab2n8a3
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#2486729 - 04/20/13 08:53 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Strategery]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
I've tried the rebel out, but I don't really like it. sorry. thanks though!
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#2486737 - 04/20/13 09:13 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2892
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
I just bought a Fender Super Champ X2, and after changing the speaker (although the stock speaker was breaking in pretty well by the time I changed it out) And tweaking the amp models in Fuze I am very pleased with the amp, especially with my humbucking equipped guitars. I recommend it. Buy the foot switch as well, about $350. Very nice Fender cleans on channel 1, and some of the other Channel 2 models are excellent. I use the Super Sonic Model (#13) for overdrives. I changed out the speaker models to the 2-12 Twin models on the Super Sonic Model and there it was excellent cleans and one super good overdrive, sounds like a real all tube amp. (It is all tube for preamp and power amp)
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#2486747 - 04/20/13 09:59 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Caevan O'Shite Online   content
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Originally Posted By: H-A
Does anybody know what are the advantages and disadvantages of buying an extremely simple amp (something like a Marshal class 5 or a Fender Princeton Reverb or something of that sort) and then getting my crunch and distortion tones out of a couple of good pedals?

I play mostly rock kind of stuff, maybe edging on metal, a little hip-hop, and some punk. I play an Epiphone Les Paul standard.


Advantages include getting a good tone- and a tone that YOU specifically like; and being able to "play the amp" via adjusting your guitar's volume-controls and your "touch".

"Simple" amps don't get in the way of your tone, your touch, your picking-dynamics, your personal tone and that of the guitar and its pickups.

If you can swing the higher price (than that of the amps you cite), it would be WELL worth your while to consider amps from the Casino series line from Fuchs. They are EXCELLENT and "simple" amps for this kind of application. The Blackjack 21, Lucky 7, and 4-Aces are fantastic and surprisingly- even shockingly- LOUD for their low wattages. I can personally attest to the Lucky 7's being able to keep up with drums, bass and other guitars...

I'll tell you what, an amp that would likely suit you VERY well is the Orange Tiny Terror head paired with their Celestion Vintage 30 loaded 2x12 cab. Even without any pedals, you can get a LOT of great classic hard rock tones, rhythm and lead, out of this head/cab/speaker combination. Here's a thread I started a few years back about 'em (note the mentioned control settings)...


Adding judiciously chosen pedals that suit your ear and your pickups can really enhance all of the above. Good overdrive, distortion, fuzz, and octave-fuzz pedals are not only alternative options from one to another, but can often be used together simultaneously for GREAT sounds.

Choose pedals that suit YOUR pickups, as well as the general sound and musical-styles that you're playing. I play a Les Paul with humbuckers, myself, and used to have another with P-90 single-coil pickups; some pedals that sound GREAT with, say, Fender Tele or Strat style guitars and their single-coil pickups do NOT sound that good with my Les Paul, and also vice-verse. Try-before-you-buy, or buy with a return/exchange policy; or, at least research the given pedal/pickup combination. You can ask here!
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#2486753 - 04/20/13 10:23 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5507
Loc: Hwy 49, California
A good amp and a couple of pedals that you like is not a bad way to go at all if you have narrowed the field. An older used Fender Princeton Reverb would be my choice between the two amps and I probably wouldn't need the pedals as I like a clean rock and roll, country, jazz kind of vibe. It would be a great practice amp but would be a little light in the loafers for a metal band. The advantages and disadvantages lie in the sound you want to craft and in the genre you like playing the best. Your tastes will change over the years and there will be thousands of choices.

You'll probably pay $300 for the amp and $300 for the pedals new/used. So I would cruise on down to your local GC and try out a new or used Fender Mustang III that you can pickup for $300 or less.

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#2486760 - 04/20/13 10:49 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Larryz]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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It's a great way to go IF your amp is already voiced towards harder music. My Fender HRD has a carpet of nice pedals, but isn't as convincing at delivering metal tones as something like a Mesa would be. Which is why I'm shopping for something like an Orange.
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#2486787 - 04/20/13 01:19 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
First off, I don't really want or need a modeling amplifier. It's simply not what I'm after, so a Fender Super Champ or Mustang really wouldn't be the best for me, I don't think. Maybe they've got some better ones out there than the one I have, but modeling amplifiers seem to me to usually be, "Jack of all trades, master of none."

And as for the money, unfortunately, I'm trying the keep this all under $1000 if at all possible. (poor teenager here)
Right now, I can't seem to find a "simple" amp that's got at least a little power, but won't break my bank. I would like an onboard 3 band EQ as well.
I don't know- would a Marshal class 5 half stack with a 12" cab, or maybe a 2x12" move enough air? I don't need much power, I mostly use my amp for practice and recording, but I do need a little sometimes when I play at my church, or if and when I start gigging.

So basically, I would like to do this, but I don't know if I can get enough power with the funds I have. Anybody know of other amps like this that aren't going to cost the real big bucks?
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#2486831 - 04/20/13 06:47 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Caevan O'Shite Online   content
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From my experience, I do think that a low-watt all-tube head and 1x12 or 2x12 cab can and will be loud enough for you, especially for your cited needs; CRANK the amp, louder than you intend to play (most) of the time, and use the guitar's volume-knob(s), your "touch", and pedals to vary between clean, mean, scream, and beam-me-up-Scotty rhythm to lead tones. And this is all without any pedals yet!

FWIW, I just saw an e-Bay listing for a used Fuchs Blackjack 21 head- easily powerful enough for this sort of use- that went for $600... I think that the wattage, features, and Class-A/B output-stage operation would all suit you VERY well. In fact, a lower wattage yet, say, 4 to 7 watts, might work even better for you, once you got a handle on the "play the amp" approach. Seriously. Ask Reif aka Bluesape about my Fuchs Lucky 7...
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#2486837 - 04/20/13 07:36 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
Thanks for all the help, guys. This is great. smile
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#2486838 - 04/20/13 07:37 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
I have heard many a sample of the Fuchs Lucky 7- very nice.
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#2486884 - 04/21/13 08:12 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
splitting hare Offline
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Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 959
Loc: The 'Nooga
I can tell you what works well for me - and I am one who also prefers fairly simple amps and almost always use clean channels and rely on my pedals for overdrive. My main gigging amp as of late has been a Marshall Haze 40 1x12 combo. Yeah, it has a few onboard effects that are OK but I rarely use these (the vibe is kinda cool, though). It does have an overdrive channel as well that I have used but I still prefer pedals. Great for rehearsing and plenty of power at the gig - do not need to mic it in small rooms, and it didn't break the bank (nor my back).

My other gigging amp is a Peavey Classic 50 head and 4x12 cab - simple, too but much more back breaking. Another amp with a good clean channel that responds well to my pedals. Honestly have never tried the combo, so that might be worth a look as well. Just a couple thoughts... LOTS of choices out there

So many amps... so little time! grin rawk
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#2486897 - 04/21/13 10:25 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: splitting hare]
Caevan O'Shite Online   content
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Originally Posted By: splitting hare
I can tell you what works well for me - and I am one who also prefers fairly simple amps and almost always use clean channels and rely on my pedals for overdrive. My main gigging amp as of late has been a Marshall Haze 40 1x12 combo. Yeah, it has a few onboard effects that are OK but I rarely use these (the vibe is kinda cool, though). It does have an overdrive channel as well that I have used but I still prefer pedals. Great for rehearsing and plenty of power at the gig - do not need to mic it in small rooms, and it didn't break the bank (nor my back).

My other gigging amp is a Peavey Classic 50 head and 4x12 cab - simple, too but much more back breaking. Another amp with a good clean channel that responds well to my pedals. Honestly have never tried the combo, so that might be worth a look as well. Just a couple thoughts... LOTS of choices out there

So many amps... so little time! grin rawk


When I use my Carvin Vintage 33 amp, I very rarely use its clean channel, or its channel-switching; instead I usually use its "Soak" dirty/overdrive channel for everything, backing off on the guitar's volume-knobs and my "touch" to get a clean yet fat, warm, full, throaty, silky-smooth clean-tone.
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#2486907 - 04/21/13 11:53 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Phloid Offline
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Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 321
Just don't buy anything based on reading what people say. Get out and try a bunch of things. Use your guitar. If you have pedals in mind use them when trying the amp. They can behave and sound different depending on the amp. Crank it up to see if it is loud enough for you. Some amps have a three-dimensional sound while others are like a picture of a sound. Both can be desirable. Try the EQ. They often present a bunch of undesirable adjustments that ruin tone. It is like chopping up a piece of bread just to have pieces. EQ isn't necessarily a useful tool. A way to completely bypass the EQ is a good feature.

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#2486912 - 04/21/13 12:14 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Guitarzan Offline
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Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 14790
Originally Posted By: H-A
Hi, all.
I'm currently on the lookout for a new amp rig,(upgrading from a Peavey Vypyr 30)and I hope maybe you guys can help me.

Does anybody know what are the advantages and disadvantages of buying an extremely simple amp (something like a Marshal class 5 or a Fender Princeton Reverb or something of that sort) and then getting my crunch and distortion tones out of a couple of good pedals?

I play mostly rock kind of stuff, maybe edging on metal, a little hip-hop, and some punk. I play an Epiphone Les Paul standard.


make sure you get an amp with enough watts to have clean at a decent volume level. that is if you plan on playing with a drummer. a simple tube amp is plenty versatile, and lots have the ability to deliver crunch and clean. the tone you want is what is important.
as long as you have good cleans and crunch then there really isn't a disadvantage to a simple tube amp, unless buying some pedals to add to your tone options.
pedals are more easily tweakable. one thing to look out for is a good speaker, personally i don't care for the crappy speakers some amps throw in. a crappy or even half decent speaker will not be helpful in recreating the "awesome" sound from the actual amp.
a "Celestion designed" is by no means a Celestion. make sure you use your guitar.
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#2486914 - 04/21/13 12:20 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
russclan Offline
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Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 286
Something in the 15-20 watt range is going to be plenty, even when you start gigging. Tube amp watts do not equal ss watts. In general, tube amps are very loud. And when you talk about going up in power, it usually equates to more headroom, not actual volume. A 100 watt tube amp isn't twice as loud as a 50 watt.

As Caevan has already stated, his 7 watt Fuchs can hold it's own very well amidst the din of a live band. I can almost guarantee you that, even if you play a decent size venue, you will be asked to turn down if you opt for something too big. Again, I'd stick with something in the 15-20 watt range. For your current situation, you simply don't need to push a lot of air.

And while tube amps excel at the old "play the amp" using the guitar's volume control technique, you really get the most bang for your buck there by first getting the amp to it's sweet spot...which typically means "pretty friggin' loud".

If you really want to stick within your given budget, it may take you a while to get your hands on something. A new Princeton is around a thousand bucks. Used older ones are close to twice that amount. A used newer model, I dunno, probably 8-ish. But deals are to be had out there, just gotta keep your eyes peeled. The Marshall Class 5 you mentioned? Well, significantly cheaper than the Princeton, but it's a totally different sound, and a little bit of a one trick pony, imho. Personally, if it's a broad range of tones you'd like to have at your disposal, I think the Princeton and some pedals would be the better choice.

But here's what you definitely need to do: go to your local GC and other mom/pop stores, take a few hours, and just play the heck out of everything they have which you might be interested in, and make sure you bring your guitar with you.
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#2486956 - 04/21/13 03:29 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
picker Offline
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Just a word about modeling amps. The biggest mistake people who buy them make is trying to set up a patch for every song they do. The fact that you have a zillion amps, speaker cabs, effects at your command does not mean you have to use them all. Shucks, if you want to, you can set up the amp to operate manually, like a regular amp, and never get into using a foot controller to switch patches.
If you want a simple Fender-ish sound, there isn't a good reason why you can't set a patch like that up and use it, and use whatever external pedals you like with it. Problem solved.

Also, you won't find a real Princeton Reverb cheap, not even the reissues. Sadly, tube amps, especially popular vintage tube amps like Princeton Reverb, are expensive.

If I were you, I'd go around to the music stores in your area, and try some of the modelers out. Avoid preprogrammed patches with tons of a effects on them. Ask one of the sales people to either help you set up the sound you want or get somebody who can to help you. After you have the sound, try some pedals in front of it and see what you get. The worst that can happen is you find out is that it doesn't work the way you want it to. But, you might find out it works exactly the way you want it to, and how cool would that be?
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#2486995 - 04/21/13 06:28 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: picker]
Larryz Offline
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+1 Picker, you can dial in some nice Fender, Marshal, Vox, etc., sounds on modeling amps and forget all of the other on-board (patches, pedals, amps, sims, etc.). You can use any pedals you like with them or create your own sounds using the amp if you wish. My brother has a Princeton Reverb made in the USA and it sounds great. It doesn't sound any greater than my Mustang Floor modeler. When I hear the sound I'm after, I don't care how the amp/PA gets it.

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#2486997 - 04/21/13 06:35 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: picker]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
Maybe I will look into some modelers. And by the way, unfortunately it's a couple hundred miles to the nearest Guitar Center, and there aren't many other sizeable stores around, so I don't get a chance to go to guitar shops very often. razz
And Splitting Hare, I have tried the Peavey Classic once. Have you put any heavy distortion in front of it? Would you say that it can handle heavy distortion well?
Thanks again for all your insights. I will keep them all in mind the next time I get a chance to get to a guitar shop.
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#2487028 - 04/21/13 09:10 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Bluesape Moderator Offline
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A Fender Deluxe, or a Peavey Classic 30 would suit you quite well, and not break your budget. A Carvin in the same power and price range would also do nicely. Blackstar may be the best bang for the buck, If you're OK with offshore products - they really are quite impressive.
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#2487042 - 04/21/13 09:55 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Bluesape]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
I got to try a used Blackstar once at a store that was going out of business. If I had had the money....
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#2487074 - 04/22/13 05:31 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
I looked at and tried out a couple Blackstars. Are there any within my budget that you would recommend above others?
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#2487102 - 04/22/13 07:28 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Caevan O'Shite Online   content
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Gotta say that when I recently heard a guy in another band playing a PRS through a Blackstar Club 40, it sounded very good.
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#2487156 - 04/22/13 09:37 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
splitting hare Offline
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Posts: 959
Loc: The 'Nooga
Originally Posted By: H-A

And Splitting Hare, I have tried the Peavey Classic once. Have you put any heavy distortion in front of it? Would you say that it can handle heavy distortion well?


IMHO, yes I think it does. Mostly I go for a classic rock type sound with overdrive from a TS9 or my old Digitech RP6 - various settings. More of a Rick Nielsen type tone. Not heavy metal by any means. Had a guitar player friend recently over for a rehearsal for a short term music project. He plugged is Line 6 in through it with some heavier distortion than I use and got some pretty good tones. Again, mine is a head run thru a 4x12 cab.

Too bad that you don't have the opportunity to shop around to find out what would be best for you - lots of good ideas on this thread!
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#2487283 - 04/22/13 05:29 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: splitting hare]
Caevan O'Shite Online   content
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Originally Posted By: splitting hare
Originally Posted By: H-A

And Splitting Hare, I have tried the Peavey Classic once. Have you put any heavy distortion in front of it? Would you say that it can handle heavy distortion well?


IMHO, yes I think it does. Mostly I go for a classic rock type sound with overdrive from a TS9 or my old Digitech RP6 - various settings. More of a Rick Nielsen type tone. Not heavy metal by any means. Had a guitar player friend recently over for a rehearsal for a short term music project. He plugged is Line 6 in through it with some heavier distortion than I use and got some pretty good tones. Again, mine is a head run thru a 4x12 cab.

Too bad that you don't have the opportunity to shop around to find out what would be best for you - lots of good ideas on this thread!


Some of that depends on the speaker(s) and cab used. Put the same amp and your favorite "heavy distortion" pedal through Celestion G12 H 30's in a closed-back or ported 2x12 or 2x12 cab instead of an open-backed 1x12 combo and you'll probably hear a LOT more "metal" potential.
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#2487314 - 04/22/13 07:10 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
How hard is it to swap speakers? I've never worked on an amp before, but I think I could it. Is it pretty straightforward?
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#2487350 - 04/22/13 09:34 PM Re: Would like some advice [Re: H-A Forgiven]
Caevan O'Shite Online   content
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Registered: 04/05/02
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Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: H-A
How hard is it to swap speakers? I've never worked on an amp before, but I think I could it. Is it pretty straightforward?


First and foremost, you need to be sure that the impedance and power-handling are OK. The nuts-and-bolts of it are pretty straightforward, it's not hard.
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#2487741 - 04/24/13 10:35 AM Re: Would like some advice [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
H-A Forgiven Offline
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Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 198
Okay. Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
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