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#2483079 - 04/05/13 10:26 AM How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler?
Fusker Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1178
Loc: Moscow, Idaho
I posted this at the Gear Page, thought I'd try here as well since we tend to be a calmer site. shocked

Some background, Iím a keys/guitar player that is getting back into guitar. I have high end keyboard equipment (Nord, Motif etc.) that I use in the context of a rock/funk band. I've evolved to running my keys through the PA because itís quite effective and one less thing to haul.

So now I'm upgrading my guitar rig and will be playing in the context of the band in addition to playing keys.

I'm eyeing my amplification options, and purchased the Fender Floor as a stopgap until I'm ready to pull the trigger. I've been running the Floor straight into my PA, and it sounds surprisingly great. I was planning to get an Egnater Rebel combo or something of that ilk so I'd have the tube goodness in addition to being a flexible and portable unit. Going through the PA works fine, but not exactly practical for random one-ups where Iím not running the show.

So my questions, I've been so impressed with the Mustang Floor, that I'm considering my options of not going tube. Would using something such as a powered speaker (QSC K12 comes to mind) in conjunction with a modeler be a good route to go? The cool thing about this is that I could also use the K12 for my keys when itís not my PA being used. Is the goal when amplifying a modeler to have a flat response? I know this in contrary to the logic of a traditional guitar speak, but was curious how this translates.
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#2483087 - 04/05/13 10:39 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Fusker]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 3922
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Fusker
So my questions, I've been so impressed with the Mustang Floor, that I'm considering my options of not going tube. Would using something such as a powered speaker (QSC K12 comes to mind) in conjunction with a modeler be a good route to go? The cool thing about this is that I could also use the K12 for my keys when itís not my PA being used. Is the goal when amplifying a modeler to have a flat response? I know this in contrary to the logic of a traditional guitar speak, but was curious how this translates.


I use a pair of Tech21 Power Engines with my rack preamp/FX. Then again I'm not interested in trying to duplicate any specific guitar amp sounds. I recently did a gig with a bass player who was running his pedalboard/POD through an Atomic powered speaker. That also sounded great, didn't weigh a ton & if it did or didn't sound exactly like an Ampeg B15, that wasn't the point.
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#2483088 - 04/05/13 10:40 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Fusker]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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I send the stereo outputs of digital-modeler/multi-effects direct to PA mains and monitors and/or headphones, and use cranked-up real tube-amps COMPLETELY in parallel (signal split after most of my pedals but before the respective inputs of the modeler and tube-amp). The cranked tube-amp often doesn't get mic'ed or anything, though sometimes it does. The combined sound and coverage is great!
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#2483103 - 04/05/13 11:14 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Terrell Offline
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Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 1722
Loc: Austin, TX
Genelecs...

If I were to play out, I'd probably get some EAW powered 2 ways like a JF59NT.

If you play keys and guitar, why wouldn't you mix them before going into the monitor? It looks like that QSC has a mix control!

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#2483107 - 04/05/13 11:19 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Terrell]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 6950
My "Modeler" straight to the PA sucks. The clean are too thin and distortions sound like bumblebees if I try to dial in hi gain sounds. But it is an antique, I don't rember when I bought it but it is one of the early Rolands.

My modeler sets on my pedalboard and I run the whole chain into either a 50 watt Mesa Boogie or this itty biity 5 watt Blackstar Combo that is OK for what I bought it for.


Edited by CEB (04/05/13 11:22 AM)
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#2483144 - 04/05/13 01:30 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: CEB]
hurricane hugo Offline
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Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 1086
I use a Behringer VampPro; I run it twin stereo out - one pair into a Digitech TSR-24, then into a Rane mixer, the other pair straight into the Rane - ending in a stereo MosValve poweramp and 2 2x12 Sonic cabs, which are the smallest 2x12s I've ever seen.
Using powered PA-type cabs, you might want to have some sort of EQing available; you'll probably have to pull way back on the highs.
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#2483160 - 04/05/13 02:25 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: hurricane hugo]
Fusker Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1178
Loc: Moscow, Idaho
Well, the EQ observation is a good one. The entire premise here is to simplify, particularly for pick-up gigs when I'm not using my PA. If I get a powered speaker, I'd probably need to also bring a mixer...so there goes making things simple. Technically, I can already achieve this by bringing a few pieces of my PA.

So combo amp it is....best of both worlds.
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#2483224 - 04/05/13 06:15 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Fusker]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2900
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
I use a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe to amplify my Digitech GNX2. When I was using a modeler as my main preamp I also turned the tone controls as follows; Trebles all the way off, mids all the way up and bass and presence all the way off. That is flat on any fender amp with passive tone controls, or any amp with passive tone controls. Then I would set the tone controls on the modeler to suit for any of the patches.

Nowadays I use the modeler for only one patch, a harmony patch for one song. I have a switching device to also use tube stomps and a Digitech reverb as one channel of the switcher and the GNX2 on the other channel. So I use the tone controls much differently than "flat"
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#2483262 - 04/05/13 11:52 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: desertbluesman]
webe123 Offline
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Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 884
I am using a EV ELX 115P

It is a 1000 watt powered speaker that works fantastic for modelers.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ELVELX115P

I was using my Axe Fx Ultra through it....now that I have sold it, I am getting in an axe fx II this tuesday and will use this as a monitor for the axe fx II and go out through the EV to the PA.

I have gotten stellar results so far and the EV is an all wood enclosure, so it "breathes" like an amp would.


Edited by webe123 (04/05/13 11:54 PM)

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#2483317 - 04/06/13 08:39 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: webe123]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 3922
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: webe123
I am using a EV ELX 115P
It is a 1000 watt powered speaker that works fantastic for modelers.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--ELVELX115P


I normally work on obscenely expensive PA systems, but I mixed a string quartet gig on a pair of these EVs a few months ago & they sounded surprisingly good. To the point that if I thought I'd ever want to get back into owning a small & affordable PA system I would get some of these.

Quote:
I have gotten stellar results so far and the EV is an all wood enclosure, so it "breathes" like an amp would.


I don't know about that. The whole point of a well-made PA speaker is that the cabinet is as inert as possible to avoid resonances that smear clarity. These EVs are well braced inside so that they specifically don't "breathe", if by breathe you mean they vibrate sympathetically with the amplified signal. In PA systems the goal is neutrality; cabinet resonances are a byproduct of bad design & construction.
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#2483339 - 04/06/13 10:14 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: CEB]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 22354
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: CEB
My "Modeler" straight to the PA sucks. The clean are too thin and distortions sound like bumblebees if I try to dial in hi gain sounds.


Got speaker and/or cab sims? Roll back the treble at the board on its channel(s) just a smidgen? Any other high-filters or EQ to tame it and emphasize the mids?
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Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

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#2483348 - 04/06/13 10:39 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 1955
Loc: Inside the Beltway
With modelers, the key word is 'transparency'. If you've dialed up just the sound you want from your modeler, you probably don't want any tone color from your amp rig. It's very different from the usual approach where the amp's voice is a critical part of your sound.

I usually go into a small Roland KB amp, for the most part, but if there's a decent PA, I'll use that. I always bring the little KB amp, just in case, because you never know how beat-up, or dangerous, the house PA is. I can haul my entire amp, synth and effects rig on one small roller cart, $49 at Costco, IIRC.

I do know a few players using their multi-effects pedalboards purely as effects modules, bypassing all the amp and speaker modeling, in which case they still use their favorite guitar amps.
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#2483357 - 04/06/13 11:05 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Winston Psmith]
picker Offline
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 13143
Loc: Near 12th Street and Vine...
I haven't had much lick getting sounds I like from a modeler into PA type speakers. I did get a reasonable sound once from a Johnson J-Station into one of those powered Fender floor monitor gadgets, the one with the 12", but I had to really work with the EQ on the J Station to keep it from sounding like the high freq driver was clipping. That is the problem I've had with all the two-element PA type speaker systems I"ve tried.

However, I've had (to my ears) excellent results running several different brands of modelers into combo amps, and a few different solid state power amps into speaker cabs made for guitar. Right now, when I use it, I run a Line 6 Pod X3 Live through a little Crate PowerBloc head into two small, locally-made cabinets with Eminence Ragin' Cajon 10"s in them, and I get beautiful tones out of all that. My other modeler is a Fender Mustang III, and it already has the power amp and speaker.

I can't say enough good about that Crate PowerBloc. If the modeler went down for any reason, I could plug direct into it and get a usable tone for the rest of the night. But it works great as a power amp in also, and has power amp inputs to bypass the preamp section. Very versatile little unit.
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#2483361 - 04/06/13 11:15 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: picker]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 3922
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: picker
I can't say enough good about that Crate PowerBloc. If the modeler went down for any reason, I could plug direct into it and get a usable tone for the rest of the night. But it works great as a power amp in also, and has power amp inputs to bypass the preamp section. Very versatile little unit.


I'm glad to hear that you've had good results with that. I wanted to like that Crate, but had noise & defect issues with 3 in a row from Gtr Ctr, so I bailed.
After looking around for an alternative to the Crate I ended up with a pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60s, which have worked out well for me, since the amp & cab are a single combo-style unit. Lightweight, too.
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#2483367 - 04/06/13 11:29 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 6950
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: CEB
My "Modeler" straight to the PA sucks. The clean are too thin and distortions sound like bumblebees if I try to dial in hi gain sounds.


Got speaker and/or cab sims? Roll back the treble at the board on its channel(s) just a smidgen? Any other high-filters or EQ to tame it and emphasize the mids?


I tried it. It just wouldn't sound good. I used DBX EQs. But it is was an antique Boss.
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#2483371 - 04/06/13 11:40 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: CEB]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 22354
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: CEB
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite
Originally Posted By: CEB
My "Modeler" straight to the PA sucks. The clean are too thin and distortions sound like bumblebees if I try to dial in hi gain sounds.


Got speaker and/or cab sims? Roll back the treble at the board on its channel(s) just a smidgen? Any other high-filters or EQ to tame it and emphasize the mids?


I tried it. It just wouldn't sound good. I used DBX EQs. But it is was an antique Boss.


I wonder if an H&K Red Box or similar device might help you here?

FWIW, I really like to blend in a real-live tube-amp with real-live speakers completely in parallel to the modeler/multi-fx going direct; this really fattens and warms the tone, and the widespread coverage of the sound is great.

I also tend to use a lot of on-board compression courtesy of the modeler, along with its speaker/cab compensated outputs. And I get a lot of miles out of my modeler's model of a Voodoo Lab 'Sparkle Drive' pedal; I can get some really warm, smooth overdrive and distortion tones this way!
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Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

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#2483379 - 04/06/13 12:32 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 1955
Loc: Inside the Beltway
Funny thing, I recall CEB having a Boss GT-3, which is the unit I'd been using for years - just upgraded to the GT-10, a while back. FWIW, I've never had any issues using the GT-3 as a live modeling rig, whether plugged into my KB amp, or a PA. I tend to stay away from the high-gain amp models, but I use some pretty brutal distortion, and it's always worked for me.
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#2483388 - 04/06/13 12:50 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Winston Psmith]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5546
Loc: Hwy 49, California
My Mustang Floor sounds great going direct to either of my Carvin PA's or my Fishman Stick. Also works great going to my ZT Club 12 or Hot Rod 4x10 DeVille...very happy with it but I'm not using all the whistles and bells so I can't testify on all it can do. I'm still stuck on the 65Deluxe with Compressor, Vintage Tremolo, Delay and Reverb in FX mode using them on clean settings, and using the settings as stomp boxes instead of pre-sets...

Ps. A powered speaker may work just fine in situations where you are plugging into someone's equipment that don't buy the fact that your Floor is a direct-in and will not hurt their PA. Your Keyboard amp if you are not going direct with the keyboard (which is what I always did) will also work just fine as you won't be playing both at the same time anyway. You could also use an A/B switch for easy changing between your Guitar and Keys. I prefer having the settings for high, low and mid available on an amp or PA, as opposed to a flat powered speaker with no adjustments. On the PA and amps I turn the reverb and other effects off and use the Floor to create my sound.


Edited by Larryz (04/06/13 01:11 PM)
Edit Reason: Ps.

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#2483438 - 04/06/13 07:35 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Scott Fraser]
webe123 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 884
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
I don't know about that. The whole point of a well-made PA speaker is that the cabinet is as inert as possible to avoid resonances that smear clarity. These EVs are well braced inside so that they specifically don't "breathe", if by breathe you mean they vibrate sympathetically with the amplified signal. In PA systems the goal is neutrality; cabinet resonances are a byproduct of bad design & construction.



What I meant by "breathe" was that it sounded better to my ears than a cabinet made out of plastic or something other than wood. It simply sounds more natural to my ears than some cabinets using other materials. In other words more of a matter of what I am HEARING than what the cabinet itself is actually DOING.

I did not say it was a guitar cabinet, nor should it be, but just that it sounded closer to one and sounded more natural using an axe fx ultra. (My Axe Fx II will not be here until Tuesday, so I am hoping it sounds just as stellar)

I am well pleased with this FRFR cabinet.


Edited by webe123 (04/06/13 07:45 PM)

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#2483478 - 04/07/13 06:46 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Scott Fraser]
picker Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 13143
Loc: Near 12th Street and Vine...
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: picker
I can't say enough good about that Crate PowerBloc. If the modeler went down for any reason, I could plug direct into it and get a usable tone for the rest of the night. But it works great as a power amp in also, and has power amp inputs to bypass the preamp section. Very versatile little unit.


I'm glad to hear that you've had good results with that. I wanted to like that Crate, but had noise & defect issues with 3 in a row from Gtr Ctr, so I bailed.
After looking around for an alternative to the Crate I ended up with a pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60s, which have worked out well for me, since the amp & cab are a single combo-style unit. Lightweight, too.


I tried my Pod XT Live through a pair of those, and I couldn't get a decent tone out of them. I had that problem I talked about above, where the high freq drivers made a noise like a paper-and-comb kazoo. It helped when I disconnected them, but the woofers in the cab were hooked up to the low-pass filter/cap & coil/crossover or whatever they use, and they sounded like mud. I can't remember all the various options I tried, whether or not I switched the output mode to PA from combo amp. I knew I was supposed to, so I think I must have. Then again, with all the various setting to work with, I might have forgotten about it. It's been long enough ago that I don't actually remember.

I don't have the XT Live anymore, but I do have the X3 live now, and I've heard one of those put through a PA with really good results, and I happened to see THESE on Craigs List this morning. With those and the Powerbloc or my little one-space Carvin power amp, I'd have the same sort of thing going on. But the price is way out of my range, and I'm considering selling the Variax & X3 Live anyway. The State of Kansas wants a boatload of bux from me, and I don't wanna sell anything else that would raise it.
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#2483507 - 04/07/13 09:47 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: picker]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 3922
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: picker
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
After looking around for an alternative to the Crate I ended up with a pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60s, which have worked out well for me, since the amp & cab are a single combo-style unit. Lightweight, too.


I tried my Pod XT Live through a pair of those, and I couldn't get a decent tone out of them. I had that problem I talked about above, where the high freq drivers made a noise like a paper-and-comb kazoo. It helped when I disconnected them, but the woofers in the cab were hooked up to the low-pass filter/cap & coil/crossover or whatever they use, and they sounded like mud.


The Power Engine has just a single 12", no horns in there. I think the Atomic powered cab has a high freq horn.
http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/powerengine/powerengine60.html
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#2483541 - 04/07/13 01:05 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 22354
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: picker
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
After looking around for an alternative to the Crate I ended up with a pair of Tech21 Power Engine 60s, which have worked out well for me, since the amp & cab are a single combo-style unit. Lightweight, too.


I tried my Pod XT Live through a pair of those, and I couldn't get a decent tone out of them. I had that problem I talked about above, where the high freq drivers made a noise like a paper-and-comb kazoo. It helped when I disconnected them, but the woofers in the cab were hooked up to the low-pass filter/cap & coil/crossover or whatever they use, and they sounded like mud.


The Power Engine has just a single 12", no horns in there. I think the Atomic powered cab has a high freq horn.
http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/powerengine/powerengine60.html


FWIW, my digital modeler/multi-effects unit- a DigiTech GNX4- has "speaker-compensation", basically an EQ/filter that simulates the general EQ and resonance characteristics of the average guitar-amp and its speaker and cab, that can be switched in or out for various individual outputs. This makes a TEREMENDOUS difference for going DI to full-range speakers like a PA's mains and/or monitors!

I much prefer going DI to a PA (and/or decent headphones) with the GNX4, to connecting it to a guitar-amp by ANY means; the digital-modeler neuters the tube/guitar-amp, while the tube/guitar-amp compromises the digital-modeler.
_________________________
Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

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#2483548 - 04/07/13 02:00 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 3922
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite

I much prefer going DI to a PA (and/or decent headphones) with the GNX4, to connecting it to a guitar-amp by ANY means; the digital-modeler neuters the tube/guitar-amp, while the tube/guitar-amp compromises the digital-modeler.


For a while I was plugging my preamp/FX stuff (through a mixer) into my Marshall JCM900 combo. It really didn't sound good. Feeding the Marshall a low impedance signal just wasn't what it needed to see. The Power Engines have a standard line input, so it's a correct level/impedance match.
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#2483559 - 04/07/13 02:33 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5546
Loc: Hwy 49, California
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite

I much prefer going DI to a PA (and/or decent headphones) with the GNX4, to connecting it to a guitar-amp by ANY means; the digital-modeler neuters the tube/guitar-amp, while the tube/guitar-amp compromises the digital-modeler.


For a while I was plugging my preamp/FX stuff (through a mixer) into my Marshall JCM900 combo. It really didn't sound good. Feeding the Marshall a low impedance signal just wasn't what it needed to see. The Power Engines have a standard line input, so it's a correct level/impedance match.



I don't have any of these problems using the Mustang Floor on Tube or Solid State Guitar amps. The main reason I like going direct to the PA is I don't have to pack either amp along to a gig or practice when using the PA. The Fender modeler has a built in Utility mode for selecting PA or Combo Amp. You must chose the correct mode before you start. The modeler will still work, but it won't sound near as good if you are in the wrong low/high impedance mode. Once you make the switch, it improves your sound 100%.


Ps. I could see running a mixer to a combo amp in an emergency if you have a PA amp breakdown.


Edited by Larryz (04/07/13 02:41 PM)
Edit Reason: Ps.

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#2483813 - 04/08/13 02:32 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Scott Fraser]
p90jr Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1987
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite

I much prefer going DI to a PA (and/or decent headphones) with the GNX4, to connecting it to a guitar-amp by ANY means; the digital-modeler neuters the tube/guitar-amp, while the tube/guitar-amp compromises the digital-modeler.


For a while I was plugging my preamp/FX stuff (through a mixer) into my Marshall JCM900 combo. It really didn't sound good. Feeding the Marshall a low impedance signal just wasn't what it needed to see. The Power Engines have a standard line input, so it's a correct level/impedance match.


I've been playing with Amplitube on my macbook and iPhone plugged through my zT Lunchbox Jr or Crate Powerblock, both of which have standard line inputs in addition to normal inputs, so you can bypass the circuitry voiced for guitar...

Which, by the way, have you tried the D-Tar Mama Bear through the power engines? It really doesn't like a preamp designed for electric guitar, but always sounds great to me through PAs or keyboard amps that are neutral.

and I will ask a question: in playing clubs with a PA (where I'm not controlling my own PA and monitors) I have problems with feedback using the mama bear just because the soundmen aren't used to dealing with EQ'ing acoustic guitar for monitors (other than having it come back to you like a toneless electric rake). I picked up a Sabine FBX solo feedback exterminator, which automatically notches out the problem frequencies... but I'm stumped as to where in the signal chain to place it. Should it be patched in on the channel back on the mixing board? Or first in the chain before the Mama bear?

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#2483826 - 04/08/13 02:53 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Larryz]
p90jr Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1987
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Caevan O'Shite

I much prefer going DI to a PA (and/or decent headphones) with the GNX4, to connecting it to a guitar-amp by ANY means; the digital-modeler neuters the tube/guitar-amp, while the tube/guitar-amp compromises the digital-modeler.


For a while I was plugging my preamp/FX stuff (through a mixer) into my Marshall JCM900 combo. It really didn't sound good. Feeding the Marshall a low impedance signal just wasn't what it needed to see. The Power Engines have a standard line input, so it's a correct level/impedance match.



I don't have any of these problems using the Mustang Floor on Tube or Solid State Guitar amps. The main reason I like going direct to the PA is I don't have to pack either amp along to a gig or practice when using the PA. The Fender modeler has a built in Utility mode for selecting PA or Combo Amp. You must chose the correct mode before you start. The modeler will still work, but it won't sound near as good if you are in the wrong low/high impedance mode. Once you make the switch, it improves your sound 100%.


Ps. I could see running a mixer to a combo amp in an emergency if you have a PA amp breakdown.


In addition to the impedance thing you're mentioning, I think there's an element of speaker simulation that plays a big part in modelers getting the various tones. Tech 21 added switched to cut the speaker sim in the Character series pedals after feedback from users.

Modelers are serving the same function as preamps, so with a combo just bypass the preamp and plug into the power amp section if possible and see how that sounds. I've had to do that in a pinch due to bad preamp tubes with a Liverpool pedal straign into the power amp of a 4x10 blues Deville, and it was pretty great sounding.

Actually, played a gig on ST Patty's day we do every year, a party on the parade route here, which means the load-in is the evening before because you can't get close to the location the next morning, and I had to go to ridiculous lengths to go around the traffic and parade route to get to that part of town... to walk up and see that somehow in all of the stuff being moved around and in and out something had reached into the back of my speaker cab and snagged the speaker wire, pulling it and destroyed the wiring harness and input jack. There was no way for me to go back home and get another one in the hour before we had to play... I tried my emergency rig, a Crate Powerblock with the Liverpool driving an extra PA monitor we had. let me mention that for this act there's no bassist, just a drummer and me using a loop pedal and an octave pedal to make bass lines or give enough heft on the bottom end that people don't miss it. The emergency fix worked for about 6 songs then started cutting out. The speaker cable wouldn't stay in the cab... I guess it heated up or something and expanded or contracted... one of the singers - who lived not far from the party - had called her boyfriend earlier and asked him to bring his amp over, which he did despite having to lug it after parking 5 or so blocks away. It was a Marshall 2x12 JVM or something... a new one, 50 watts... 3 channels... I just asked for clean, loud and bottom end. I got clean, fairly loud, and no bottom end. The bass was dimed... it just had nothing to give... well, what can I do... a very frustrating minute or so later during a song I look down and remember I have the Liverpool still in line, so I took my foot and ramped the bass on that and turned it on, and viola! Like my loud, bassy AC30 would've been... thank God. I guess Marshall is shooting for the mid-range loving metal market with these amps. I do suffer from "Dick Dale Syndrome," in that I want a big sound to wallop me with tons of bottom end power.

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#2483929 - 04/08/13 11:18 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: p90jr]
Terrell Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 1722
Loc: Austin, TX
My POD XT Pro sounds Great direct into studio monitors, however, it FEELS like crap! Like zero sympathetic resonance, zero feedback, zero sag, overtones are synthetic, weird latency, etc. Every note feels like I'm struggling and fighting. Headphone are just silly sad! Now, into a MESA 50/50 and a pair of 2x12 Greenbacks, it sounds pretty darn good for clean. And through a pair of modified Epiphone Valve Jrs (AYs) into a split MESA half back it sounds pretty good for dirty.

My HD500 sounds much better direct. Of course there are bias, hum and sag controls for each model. That helps create "life" or chaos... However, headphones are still a stretch. Not enough feedback or sympathetic room and ring. I found that splitting the signal and sending something to a live speaker in the room (Valve Jr and a half back MESA) helps tremendously. Even when I'm monitoring a mix on headphones. I've been really disappointed with the horsepower of the HD500, but the tones and FEEL is pretty darn good for single amp sounds.

The Axe FX 2 is supposed to be the holy grail. I'm sure I will fing out it's not perfect...

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#2483940 - 04/09/13 01:30 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Terrell]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 22354
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Originally Posted By: Terrell
However, headphones are still a stretch. Not enough feedback or sympathetic room and ring.


Mainiac Music Sustainiac 'Model C'

crazy It's a sick machine that seemingly works magic. Add it to octave-fuzz and distortion and it's incredible, like glowing molten glass notes. It can have a mind of its own from time to time, too.

The guitar plugs into a stompbox that passes your straight-signal on to the rest of your signal chain, while also separately amplifying the signal to drive a vibrating transducer in a way similar to powering a small speaker; the transducer mounts on the headstock to vibrate the neck. It makes the entire guitar physically vibrate and feed back as if a powerful, LOUD amp and speakers were close by. This works GREAT for using headphones and/or going direct, and greatly improves any digital-modeling. The guitar itself- its wood and construction, as well as the pickups, pots and caps, strings, etc.- and the player's technique and touch- all vary the results quite a bit.

Fundamental frequencies of notes or harmonic-overtones can be emphasized, or any blend in-between. I typically balance the two with a slight tip towards harmonic-overtones, so that notes or chords that feed-back swell, sustain, and morph into ringing harmonic-overtones like 3rds and 5ths... cool

It has an effects loop that only affects the signal sent to the transducer on the headstock, without affecting the signal being sent out to the rest of the signal-chain. I have not experimented much with that yet. A volume-pedal can be patched in there to control how strong the feedback signal is; a wah pedal will affect the nature of the feedback quite a bit; a pitch-shifter or harmonizer will also have quite an impact.

Damping and muting with both hands is critical, as the feedback can run away and get out of control in a hurry if allowed the first, slightest opportunity, just like with feedback from a loud amp and speakers. Anyone who's spent some time playing electric slide along the lines of Duane Allman and Sonny Landreth will be familiar with the type of picking-hand and fretting-hand damping and muting required here; a lot of rock and blues guys who tend to let all the strings ring out- played and unplayed- will get a lot of wild, unwanted string-feedback noises at first.

The stompbox/amplifier part that drives the transducer that vibrates the guitar
(I use the Transducer output-jack, I do not have the Splitter/router-box that uses an XLR cable)




The vibrating-transducer that mounts on the headstock

_________________________
Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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#2484163 - 04/09/13 08:53 PM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5546
Loc: Hwy 49, California
@P90: It's great to have fellow musicians respond with an amp and carry it to you from 5 blocks away (hope he had a hand truck) just as you're trying to get fired up. The show must go on and getting things working on the fly is a talent in and of itself. Love those Tech21 pedals (with or without the speaker sim switch). I used the Tech21 Blonde direct into my DeVille and into my PA's before getting the Mustang Floor. They both work great for me but I know they are not for everyone, especially some of the pros on this forum. A jazz pro using the Blonde into a Fishman Stick is what got me started on going direct... cool

Ps. I have always gone direct with the acoustic. Most open mic hosts can fix the acoustic feedback problem by just working with the high/low/mid controls. I get a mid string hum on one of the hosts' PA systems for some reason that he has to adjust just for me? I don't have that problem when I'm running my own PA(s). I have a Whirlwind IMP direct-in box that I used to carry so I could go direct with my electric (quick fix if your guitar amp takes a dive), but it never sounded quite right and lost volume/punch. Once I started using the Blonde, problem solved and a new world opened up. Then, I got the Floor and a whole new world opened up for me. You still have to watch out for clipping and be mindful of your speakers when using electrics direct to the PA IMHO.


Edited by Larryz (04/10/13 09:09 AM)
Edit Reason: Ps.

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#2484281 - 04/10/13 11:04 AM Re: How Are You Amplifying Your Modeler? [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5546
Loc: Hwy 49, California
@ CAevan: I'm not a fan of your Sustaniac "Acoustic Feedback Sustainer" although you have posted it many many times (and I have withheld comment). I'm still guarding my words very carefully as I know it means a lot to you and you have a love for this thingy. IOTW, I'm not trying to knock it. But, I'll finally come forward with just a little of my two cents:

first, I think on the earphone concept you can get wild and cause no harm, except if you have your earphones up to loud.

second, since it has a "mind of it's own", I wouldn't want it in the PA ready to feedback for the audience out there unless you have a soundman ready to cut your signal before you can hit the on/off switch.

third, I think it may have been designed to make a Prince or Fernandez electric feedback guitar out of an acoustic guitar. I've noticed you have it hooked up to an electric guitar instead of an acoustic (ie. by the locking tuners)?

fourth, I think the volume pedal should go on the amp outlet so you can cut the signal to the amp (if needed) before your soundman cuts the channel on the mixer when it starts using "the mind of it's own", which can only be worsened when using an acoustic guitar.

fifth, on the positive note, you might try using a stereo volume pedal with the left channel in the signal to the sustainer and the right channel controlling the signal to the amp. Thus, they can both be cut at the same time. You could still use a standard volume pedal in the "loop".

sixth, the reason I don't like the pedal is mostly due to the fact that I don't like, and have the fear of, uncontrolled feedback whether it's on an acoustic or electric guitar and/or mic. If you can control it in a live setting then great, and your audience will be treated to what you hear on the headphones. If not, the biggest concern for me would be how to [cut] the outputs and control the "acoustic feedback" as quickly as possible.

seventh, having said all that, I know you are in seventh heaven with this thing and I don't want to discourage you. Please ignore all that I have said and continue with your quest! I know it must work well for you guys that know how to control it and that have more experience. Thus, you do not share my worries! The main thing is to have fun with it... thu

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