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#2464330 - 01/21/13 03:56 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: burningbusch]
To B3 Offline
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Exactly what I think. It's success will be based on the other all-in-one offerings and their much higher prices.

Regarding the Juno Gi, i think the panel is some kind of brushed metal thing. And the keys are IMHO some decent synth weighted keys.

One thing that bothered me a little is the sole damper/footswitch. Looks like you cannot assign the pedal to fast/slow leslie, as none of the videos so far show that capacity. Wonder if the exp can be assigned to some other things, like wah or ring mod.
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#2464339 - 01/21/13 04:13 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: To B3]
Sam Mullins Offline
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At 999 and 12 pounds, I think they will do well with this one. That's a nice price for people who need to cover basic sounds but don't need the absolute best in class for the various sounds. There may also be people who buy it for a second tier keyboard and never use the internal clone...just use the drawbars to drive VB3 or a Nord Stage.
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#2464342 - 01/21/13 04:23 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Sam Mullins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
There may also be people who buy it for a second tier keyboard and never use the internal clone...just use the drawbars to drive VB3

It could make a very nice light and well-priced VB3 controller with real drawbars plus bonus sounds of its own... but I fear it may be handicapped by the uncooperative MIDI implementation that afflicts numerous Roland products. I would not count on the drawbars sending out CC, for example. Or the ability to create presets that send out MIDI Program Change on specified channels. These are the kinds of things that drive me crazy about Roland... useful features that would probably add zero to the manufacturing cost, yet are frequently omitted.
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#2464343 - 01/21/13 04:24 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: To B3]
richwhite9 Offline
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Mate it with a Casio PK-150 and upgrade every 3 or 4 years and lose a whopping $500 or so. Perfect Weekend warrior stuff. There's no going back.

The keys on the Roland look like a horror story for the palm smear waterfall crowd and spank it EP crowd.

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#2464345 - 01/21/13 04:31 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Sam Mullins]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
for a second tier keyboard and never use the internal clone...just use the drawbars to drive VB3 or a Nord Stage.


I just glanced at the VR-760 manual and it does not appear that the drawbars transmit MIDI. Even if they did (or do in the case of the VR09) there is the issue compatibility. On the VR-760 Roland receives on CC#70-78. VB3 would be configurable but the Stage would not be.

Busch.

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#2464346 - 01/21/13 04:36 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
There may also be people who buy it for a second tier keyboard and never use the internal clone...just use the drawbars to drive VB3

It could make a very nice light and well-priced VB3 controller with real drawbars plus bonus sounds of its own... but I fear it may be handicapped by the uncooperative MIDI implementation that afflicts numerous Roland products. I would not count on the drawbars sending out CC, for example. Or the ability to create presets that send out MIDI Program Change on specified channels. These are the kinds of things that drive me crazy about Roland... useful features that would probably add zero to the manufacturing cost, yet are frequently omitted.


I thought the VR-760 sent CC for drawbars but perhaps it was sysex. I had one years ago and seem to remember getting the drawbars working with the VB3 demo software using it's learn mode. No guarantee that the VR-09 would work but there is some reason for optimism.



Edited by Sam Mullins (01/21/13 05:16 PM)
Edit Reason: changed to reflect my fading confidence in my memory of the 760
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#2464347 - 01/21/13 04:39 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: burningbusch]
Sam Mullins Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
for a second tier keyboard and never use the internal clone...just use the drawbars to drive VB3 or a Nord Stage.


I just glanced at the VR-760 manual and it does not appear that the drawbars transmit MIDI. Even if they did (or do in the case of the VR09) there is the issue compatibility. On the VR-760 Roland receives on CC#70-78. VB3 would be configurable but the Stage would not be.

Busch.


Good point on the stage. I thought for sure the 760 transmitted also. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Unfortunately, my 760 is long gone or I would check it.
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#2464360 - 01/21/13 05:06 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Sam Mullins]
burningbusch Offline
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More complete specs here: http://www.roland.com/products/en/V-Combo_VR-09/index.html

Interesting: "2-manual mode (when using sold separately MIDI keyboard)"

Busch.

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#2464370 - 01/21/13 05:33 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: voxpops]
The_Star_Guy Offline
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Originally Posted By: voxpops
I think it all depends on the price and the actual sound quality. If it comes in at around $1,000 (or half an Electro 4D) it might gain some traction. A lot of people are looking for bread and butter sounds in a lightweight package. Up to now, Roland has rarely delivered on EP samples, so much will depend on how they've done in that department. The organ sounds (from the videos) may be typical Roland VK, but they sound WAY better than Casio's in my opinion. The lack of complete on-board control for the organ parameters is limiting, but possibly not crucial for some players. The synth seems to have some flexibility (more than in the VR-700). The biggest negative is having to buy an iPad (unless you already own one, of course) if you want full control over the sound-shaping parameters.



This pretty much echoes my sentiments as well. As long as it streets for under a $1000, there is indeed an entire class of players available looking for pitch/modulation/Drawbar & velocity controller options in a top-tier board. Also you then enter the high-end computer musician/DJ market as well, which is also what I think Roland is trying to tap into with the RD-64 as well. By under-cutting both H/S & Nord by a grand, they can easily split the market, although I suspect that at least H/S can drop their pricing also if they are forced to.
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#2464373 - 01/21/13 05:38 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Interesting: "2-manual mode (when using sold separately MIDI keyboard)"

An A-800 Pro would make a lot of sense as a second manual, if they built in an auto-mapping for its 9 sliders to function as drawbars for the lower manual.
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#2464374 - 01/21/13 05:46 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Sam Mullins]
David Emm Offline
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I got a momentary thrill when I first saw this. I suspect that they found a sweet spot. I didn't expect for the synth to compete with a Rob Papen plug-in for range of parameters, but I can see it making quite a few people happy. Some will moan over the allegedly lacking sound qualities, but the truth is, many of those sounds will appear if you take the time to massage the structure a bit. I sure didn't hear any dogs in the demos.

It does splits and layers, so I can easily imagine someone running an outboard synth from the top end. I'm curious to see what signals it'll send OUT. Get a DAW to run part of that while you play organ over it. There's also a looper to be had, so good forethought went into the different hats it could wear. "Everyone" is waiting for the next Synclavier, but you can sometimes come to discover that your work horse is more useful than you thought.

I don't think its bogus because its not supreme at each thing it does; I think its promising because it brings several basics under one useful roof. If it has a little assignable I/O to offer (maybe in the depths of the editor), it could deserve Main Controller status. Casuals players and churches will line up for one of these. I also expect to see it as the bottom instrument for people who are playing a wilder monosynth on top.
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#2464378 - 01/21/13 06:17 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Interesting: "2-manual mode (when using sold separately MIDI keyboard)"

An A-800 Pro would make a lot of sense as a second manual, if they built in an auto-mapping for its 9 sliders to function as drawbars for the lower manual.


thu
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#2464379 - 01/21/13 06:21 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Interesting: "2-manual mode (when using sold separately MIDI keyboard)"

An A-800 Pro would make a lot of sense as a second manual, if they built in an auto-mapping for its 9 sliders to function as drawbars for the lower manual.


Split balling here, but if you had a weighted key lower connected in, how tough would it be to set the VR09 up so that APs/EPs would be triggered from the weighted and when you went into organ mode the weighted would be your lower manual. Don't know if that could be done elegantly.

Busch.

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#2464380 - 01/21/13 06:23 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Interesting: "2-manual mode (when using sold separately MIDI keyboard)"

An A-800 Pro would make a lot of sense as a second manual, if they built in an auto-mapping for its 9 sliders to function as drawbars for the lower manual.


thu


Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Interesting: "2-manual mode (when using sold separately MIDI keyboard)"

An A-800 Pro would make a lot of sense as a second manual, if they built in an auto-mapping for its 9 sliders to function as drawbars for the lower manual.


Good point. Had to look up the A-800 Pro.

Busch.

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#2464381 - 01/21/13 06:25 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: burningbusch]
mate stubb Online   content
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And you would stack those how?
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#2464382 - 01/21/13 06:36 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: mate stubb]
Leh173 Offline
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After looking at the stuff that's come out about this VR this morning, I'm quite intrigued. After I got over the disappointment of no new Fantom. This little thing would have been a no brainer for me a few (like 8) years ago. I remember wanting to buy a VR-760 for gigs (or a nord stage) but didn't have 5 grand at the time. Since then I grabbed the Fantom G which covers all my needs, but still a 5.5kg board with decent organ and synth tones etc is quite appealing. Looks like the synth can be controlled from the drawbars. Looking at the the iPad app for this, it seems the synth parameters are almost the same as the Jupiters. It does PWM and OSC sync which the Fantom ROMpler (JV/XV) engine does not do. I wonder if it's the same? Be good to get the manual when it's released. I think this would be a great lightweight top tier board or spare rehearsal or gig board. Interesting stuff. I notice the RD-64 also has the SN piano/EP and clonewheel organ. If they're putting those sounds into these things, surely a new workstation can't be too far off....


Edited by Leh173 (01/21/13 06:37 PM)
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#2464383 - 01/21/13 06:38 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Split balling here, but if you had a weighted key lower connected in, how tough would it be to set the VR09 up so that APs/EPs would be triggered from the weighted and when you went into organ mode the weighted would be your lower manual. Don't know if that could be done elegantly.

It's easy in theory, it's just a matter of what kind of MIDI implementation they did. One solution would be to have a mode where the Split function operates to assign the "top" sound to the internal keybed and the "bottom" sound to an external keyboard over a specified MIDI channel. Then any saved user registration that had piano on the bottom end of a split would toss piano to the weighted controller underneath, and any registration that had a lower manual organ sound on the bottom end of a split would likewise trigger that] sound from the external keyboard. Pretty straight-forward, and doesn't require any additional multi-timbral capability in the board beyond the 2-way split it apparently already supports.
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#2464384 - 01/21/13 06:47 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
Leh173 Offline
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Usually each part on a Roland has it's own channel so in theory should be easy. I think the Jupiter 80 has a weird implementation though which each live set had it's own channel, not each tone, but the Integra and Fantom G are like the old way, which is way better. Hopefully this is like that. How many splits and layers can this thing do? Man this is why I like the Fantom G, it's powerful and straight forward. BTW to the A-800 question even though it doesn't automap, I'd hope you can set whatever CC's you want to any of the controllers. I can on the Fantom G.


Edited by Leh173 (01/21/13 06:49 PM)
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#2464385 - 01/21/13 06:59 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: mate stubb]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate_stubb
And you would stack those how?

Courtesy of MrTobbe at http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2461137/Flat_top_88_key_midicontroller

The absolutely simplest idea I've heard is to get a piece of 2 x 4 inch wood, and put it behind your [lower keyboard] on a deep enough stand. Place your upper board so it's supported by your lower board and the 2 x 4. Voila! Paint the wood with some nice black paint and it might even look good.

Might need a little tweaking, but the basic premise sounds reasonable... basically since these boards are so small, you could put both boards on a deep single-tier stand, and just find something to prop up the rear one. Maybe use the case you get for one of these boards for that purpose (if it's a hard case).

If Roland wanted to promote the idea, it would be cool if they came out with a two-tier stand designed to place the top keyboard directly above and to the rear of the bottom one. There have been some stands that can do this (famously, the Invisible, and a K&M 18880 if you flip it's 2nd tier backwards), but the A-800 has so little height, it would be tough to get the two tiers vertically close enough. Though for a variation on the above. if you placed something (again, perhaps one of your keyboard cases) on the bottom tier and sat the lower keyboard on top of that, you might be able to get about what you'd want out of that K&M, for example.

It would be an interesting way to simulate a dual manual organ... the two "manuals" combined would weigh about 22 pounds and cost about $1400. And the bottom manual would even have aftertouch for driving a synth sound. Considering that's about half the price of any dual manual organ, there would be some motivation there to customize some kind of stand to make it work! Though the boards are so light, you might need to add some velcro or something to keep them stable during more aggressive organ playing...
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#2464397 - 01/21/13 08:16 PM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
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Stacking the VR09 on top of the RD64 looks so natural, you'd think they had that in mind with the designs, and if so, then a stand to accomodate both would make a lot of sense. The WS 550 with the Orant mod would work perfectly also.
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#2464426 - 01/22/13 05:40 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: burningbusch]
Craig MacDonald Offline
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I have to say that if the VR-09 organ and new leslie sim sounds any good, this could potentially be major competition for the SK series (at it's current price point), at least for those musicians who are looking for their first "all-on-one", and where the organ is important but other voices are equally, or more important. It's less than 13 pounds, $999 street price, and no doubt has significantly better sounding extra voices. From roland I would expect a much more extensive set library of voices, and it has this built in virtual analog synth (with an ipad editor app that looks very "juno-ish). Having a built in GM synth alone sets the extra voices above the SK which does not have this most basic of sound capabilities. Oh yes, and it has a pitchbend/modulation joystick.. woo hoo..!

On the down side:

It seems to have diving board style keys which might turn a lot of clone fans off.

It has multiple modes as follows:
- Whole
- Dual (volume balance adjustable)
- Split (split point, volume balance adjustable)
- 2-manual mode (when using separately MIDI keyboard)

but.... based on these modes it looks like it has the same limitation as the SK, basically only 2 sounds at once.. (3 if you count bass pedals, and two organ manuals), but if I'm not mistaken the SK has the limitation that one of it's two sounds has to be organ, and I don't believe that will be the case with the VR-09. On it's predecessor, the V-combo series you could layer piano and strings (or any two non-organ voices) and I would expect the same with the VR-09. If so this is possibly another advantage over the SK.

Unfortunately, the demos sound like the same old VK organ which I've never liked.. so I'll have to hear it in person to see if the organ and the new leslie sim are a noticable improvement or not.

Lack of separate output for the organ sounds (therefore can't use a real leslie or an external leslie sim). This is something that Roland simply can't seem to understand, we want to put our organs tones separately through preamps, real leslies, external sims etc... by simply adding a separate organ output they might have doubled the sales of all their V-combo style keyboards!!

All that said, I'm pretty impressed with what you get for under a $1000... for someone on a strict budget looking for a lightweight do it all keyboard, it looks like you can do a lot with this VR-09.. At this price point, I would seriously think of buying one, just for reheasals.
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#2464430 - 01/22/13 05:50 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: AnotherScott]
Craig MacDonald Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Split balling here, but if you had a weighted key lower connected in, how tough would it be to set the VR09 up so that APs/EPs would be triggered from the weighted and when you went into organ mode the weighted would be your lower manual. Don't know if that could be done elegantly.

It's easy in theory, it's just a matter of what kind of MIDI implementation they did. One solution would be to have a mode where the Split function operates to assign the "top" sound to the internal keybed and the "bottom" sound to an external keyboard over a specified MIDI channel. Then any saved user registration that had piano on the bottom end of a split would toss piano to the weighted controller underneath, and any registration that had a lower manual organ sound on the bottom end of a split would likewise trigger that] sound from the external keyboard. Pretty straight-forward, and doesn't require any additional multi-timbral capability in the board beyond the 2-way split it apparently already supports.


Reading the VR-09 documentation, it has what is referred to as a "2-manual mode" and I would expect that this is designed specifically to allow for exactly what you are asking... the use of two keyboard setups, and I would fully expect that this would allow you to play organ from the on the VC-09 and play the EP's and AP's on a weighted keyboard, and default back to playing lower manual organ when in organ mode. Obviously I could be wrong, but that's how I would interpret the 4 available modes, and it would seem to me that if you're creating a "2 manual mode" there are two logical things you'd want it to be able to do... 1. function as a lower manual organ, and 2. allow you to have two different sounds on 2 different keyboards.
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#2464431 - 01/22/13 05:59 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Craig MacDonald]
Toano88 Offline
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The only missing it looks like is horns. Yes, I hate having to do a horn part. But it is often asked of me. This would be a nice board to compliment my SV-1.

Update: missed the GM2 sounds, never mind blush


Edited by Toano88 (01/22/13 06:14 AM)
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#2464433 - 01/22/13 06:09 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Toano88]
Craig MacDonald Offline
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Originally Posted By: Toano88
The only missing it looks like is horns. Yes, I hate having to do a horn part. But it is often asked of me. This would be a nice board to compliment my SV-1.


Not sure why you're suggesting it doesn't have horns.. it has a full GM2 soundset which contains serveral different horn tones.. so it's definately capable of horn sounds.. The question might be whether or not you have to go into a special GM mode to access these sounds, or if you can easly access the GM2 sounds and layer them in with the organs and pianos etc.

For the record the quality of the GM2 sounds that the large companies are putting out these days are really surprisingly good.. I use my Kronos's bright acoustic piano GM piano for all of the classic rock that I play with my band.. it's bright, cuts nicely..! Gm sounds can be pretty good..

I would expect that the GM sounds are easily accessable from the VR-09 keyboard (although at this point it's really just speculation about how to interpret the specs)..
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#2464435 - 01/22/13 06:12 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Craig MacDonald]
Toano88 Offline
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I missed the GM2 Soundset in the specs I was just about to delete the post.
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#2464443 - 01/22/13 06:43 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Toano88]
Craig MacDonald Offline
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Originally Posted By: Toano88
I missed the GM2 Soundset in the specs I was just about to delete the post.


Toano, no problem.. there is a lot to read and speculate about! I would expect that the entire GM2 soundset is available.. AND if you look at the VR-09 pictures and blow up the image of the control panel, you will see that under the "SYNTH" section there are 8 category buttons and one is called "BRASS".. that doesn't necessarily mean that the GM2 sounds are accessable there, it could mean that just "synth brass" sounds are accessible there.. but I'm pretty sure that you'll find acceptable Brass sounds on this board.
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#2464449 - 01/22/13 07:03 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Craig MacDonald]
CEB Offline
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It's a Juno. The last Juno that felt like a quality build was the 106. The Juno Stage wasn't too bad. I may make a nice entry level board. This is going to compete with stuff like the MM6 and that cheap Korg thing, PS-6 or whatever it is called. Someone looking seriously $2000 board aint going to like this.


Edited by CEB (01/22/13 07:03 AM)
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#2464460 - 01/22/13 07:21 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: CEB]
Craig MacDonald Offline
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Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 2090
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: CEB
It's a Juno. The last Juno that felt like a quality build was the 106. The Juno Stage wasn't too bad. I may make a nice entry level board. This is going to compete with stuff like the MM6 and that cheap Korg thing, PS-6 or whatever it is called. Someone looking seriously $2000 board aint going to like this.


Well CEB it is a $1000 board.. obviously a very different price point.. but I don't think its designed to compete with low end workstations like the MM6 or MOX6 etc.. I think it's designed as a direct competitor to the SK and Nord stuff, and it may very well win if you compare it a $2000 Hammond SK1 depending on what you're looking for.. at a very high level here's how that comparison would go:

SK1

Great sounding organ
non-hammond style interface
waterfall keys
medeocre sounding extra voices
16 pounds
$2000

VR-09

good sounding organ
non-hammond style interface
diving board style keys
great sounding extra voices, built in analog synth, GM2
13 pounds runs on batteries
$1000

There may be a $1000 difference in the quality of the organ sounds, or maybe not! Lot's of people like and are quite satisfied with the VK engine (I'm not one BTW), and a lot of people couldn't tell the difference between one or the other. The difference in price point really swings the advantage over to the VR-09 for all but the really fussy organ players. Just my opinion of course and much of it is based on speculation regarding how to interpret the specs.

BTW I wouldnt' question the build quality of the Roland stuff, my experience with Roland has always been great.. on the other hand.. the SK series had an awful lot of issues when it first came out. I give the advantage to Roland here (including larger and better established dealer and service network).


Edited by Craig MacDonald (01/22/13 07:24 AM)
Edit Reason: add built quality comment
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Craig MacDonald
Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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#2464464 - 01/22/13 07:30 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Craig MacDonald]
CEB Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 12932
I played the new Juno boards thinking I could use it as a sound module with keys. The action felt weird. It didn't play well at all. The fulcrum point on the keys were not right. I bought a used XV5050.

I like diving board keys. 2 of my favorite all time actions are the D-50 and DX7.

If this is the same keyboard that is used in the Gi or Di, yuck. At the end of the day is the action that we play. But it is half the price of a real pro board.


Edited by CEB (01/22/13 07:31 AM)
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#2464465 - 01/22/13 07:31 AM Re: Roland V-Combo VR-09 [Re: Craig MacDonald]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 12600
FWIW, a VK-09 and a Vent is still $500 less than an SK1...

The feel of the keys is a big unknown at the moment, but at least philosophically, Roland hasn't ignored it... their promo page says:

The 61-note keyboard has an extremely fast response, perfect for essential organ techniques such as trill, sputter, glissando, and percussive hits.

Probably has a high trigger point, at least.
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