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#2452071 - 11/24/12 04:19 PM Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar
Andre Lower Offline
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Registered: 10/22/02
Posts: 1380
Loc: Oakville - ON
Hi there,

I searched for an answer for the question below but did not quite found it. Perhaps it has been answered here before, so please bear with my repetition of it...

I have recently started a very good Beatles cover band and am now contemplating the purchase of the "right" guitar, because so far I have been making-do with my humble Squier Strat plus 6 string acoustic (yeah, shame on me, I know...)

Anyways, went today to a store to have my first hands on contact with a Rickenbacker 6 stringer, and found the guitar is kind of hard to find...I was told (among others by a salesperson at Toronto's LA Music) that Rickenbacker keeps delivery of their guitars at a ridiculously low rate, which I suspect helps to drive prices up. Indeed the store had none on the floor. Was also told that the instrument quality is much overrated. I know this is debatable and am not interested in discussing it here and now - my current question is another: I am now interested in discovering whether one can coax a credible impersonation of the Beatles 62-66 guitar sound from alternatives such as the Epiphone Casino or maybe one of the Gretsch semi-hollows. Any pointers will be much appreciated.
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#2452083 - 11/24/12 06:12 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Andre Lower]
CEB Online   content
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Registered: 06/03/09
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Get the Casino it is a better playing guitar.
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#2452084 - 11/24/12 06:13 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Andre Lower]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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I would think it had a bit more to do with amps and effects, honestly. However, given what you say you're doing, you may have already covered those bases.

I bet the closest thing to a Ric would be a Danelectro of some kind. That probably doesn't help you much, though.

You might consider looking at the Richmond Guitars Canada company, a subdivision of Godin. They have a nifty guitar called the Belmont:

http://www.richmondguitarscanada.com/belmont.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAI0JUbO6Uo&sns=em


http://www.richmondguitarscanada.com/belmontbigsby.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59itkizmZv8&sns=em

If you follow the links, you'll see & hear a guitar with a SD '59HB in the bridge and SD Lipsticks in the neck and center positions. Lots of modern and retro tones available!
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#2452085 - 11/24/12 06:16 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Andre Lower]
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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Registered: 08/23/03
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Doing John's part? The Rick and the casino was pretty much all I remember seeing him play in that time period.

George played a bunch of Gretsches and Gibsons, along with the Epi Casino but these will cost about the same if not more than a Rick. You can get a cheap new Pacific Rim Epi Casino, but they don't feel or sound the same. Probably close enough, though.

The thing is that most of the Beatle cover bands that I see are proud of the collection of authentic Beatles era instruments that they drag around. I found it interesting that one of the top touring Beatles cover bands in the US doesn't use amps at all, they've got Pods or something... but they've got the 'right' guitars. It is less about the sound to the audience, most of whom are not players. It is about the look.
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#2452087 - 11/24/12 06:37 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
CEB Online   content
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I see you are not in the US. You could try to get a Rockinbetter but you may end wanting to replace the pickups depending on how picky you are.

Those clones are not supposed to be sold in the US. I know you can get them in the UK.


Edited by CEB (11/24/12 06:39 PM)
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#2452097 - 11/24/12 08:06 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Andre Lower]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 3913
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Andre Lower
I am now interested in discovering whether one can coax a credible impersonation of the Beatles 62-66 guitar sound from alternatives such as the Epiphone Casino or maybe one of the Gretsch semi-hollows. Any pointers will be much appreciated.


The Gretsches are fully hollow, not semi-hollow. Anyway, you need one guy playing a Rick & another playing a Gretsch. I would look at one of the affordable Electromatic 5422 series Gretsches. They play great, look the part, & cost under $1000. Only guitar nerds will know it isn't a real Country Gentleman.
Don't really know much about Ricks except that they feel really weird to me.

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#2452099 - 11/24/12 08:41 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Scott Fraser]
Andre Lower Offline
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Registered: 10/22/02
Posts: 1380
Loc: Oakville - ON
Hey, thanks for all these answers! Your support is much appreciated.

Now I am not limited to buying it in Canada, and frankly don't care much about the guitar looks. My interest is in tracking what axe would cover it better. For instance, I realize that the Casino's P-90s are likely incapable of delivering that jangling tone of the 6 string Rick - but how far off would it be? Can the difference be reduced via EQ or some other trick? Has any other manufacturer noticed that Rick is heftily overpricing their guitars and started marketing something that sounds somewhat like their product?

BTW, are Rockinbetters any good at all?
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"I'm ready to sing to the world. If you back me up". (Lennon to his bandmates, in an inspired definition of what it's all about).

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#2452107 - 11/24/12 11:52 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Andre Lower]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1961
Go to youtube and watch the early Beatles concerts... I watched a show from Washington D.C. from '64 and one from Japan from '66... John was playing the Casino in the Japan show and got the same tones. The Vox amps probably have a lot to do with it... you can get jangle and chime from any guitar.

Are you doing a look-alike imitation tribute thing or just playing the music?

A friend who's a boutique amp maker (and nice enough to fix my crap) is a Beatlemaniac and he likes to point out that they used a lot of different stuff in the studio, and George and John had matching blue Strats by Rubber Soul and Revolver that nobody saw... Fender gave them a load of gear in the later days.

I needed Ric sounds for some stuff and my big hands don't work on Ric necks, so I got a Gretsch Electromatic Pro-Jet for really cheap used (but brand new looking) and put in GFS copies of DeArmond pickups. Using a touch of compression from my Janglebox and plugging it into VOX or a Fender Twin or tweed Blues DeVIlle gets 'em right. I used that guitar in a Monkees cover band, but I don't like it ergonomically (I only like playing it sitting down) so I now just use a Tele, Jazzmaster, Danelectro and even a Strat sometimes and get the right tones for those gigs.

The closest I ever heard to a cover band nailing early Beatles was in a cheesy bar and the band was playing on an island in the middle of the bar up above and behing he bartenders, and the guitarist had a Parker Fly and a POD on a stand right in front of him and he nailed it... then every other song they played over the next hour.

A few years ago on eBay a guy was dismantling his Beatles Tribute band somewhere and selling the gear as a set, which was a drum set he'd recovered to look like Ringo's black oyster Ludwigs, and 2 Vox digital amps that he'd swapped out the grill cloth to look like AC30s. He talked about how that was super practical for the act as far as progressing through the years using the simulations for different gear they used, and the floor controllers were hidden into his stage set somehow. The bass amp was an Eden or something he'd just hidden in a cab he made that looked like a Vox T-60 head.

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#2452117 - 11/25/12 05:41 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: p90jr]
A String Administrator Offline
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You're in Oakville? Did you check out Long and McQuades in Burlington? Maybe give them a call first. They have a great selection.
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#2452130 - 11/25/12 09:38 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: A String]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vMfJXG-F6A <--- you might try one or two of the POG pedals to get the sound and not have to buy the guitar (as you may or may not like the Rick and/or only use it on a few songs). This demo at 2:20 kinda gets that Rick sound using a Strat. There are more demos on Youtube of the POG2 and the original POG...


Edited by Larryz (11/25/12 09:39 AM)

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#2452134 - 11/25/12 10:18 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
The CAVERNERS( another Canadian tribute band)use authentic period looking instruments, but not entirely. I didn't get close enough to catch just what models they were using. The amps weren't Vox, however, but the SOUND was pretty spot on. The "George" member would switch between a Gretsch and a Rick 12 string, depending on the song, while the "John" member moved from a Rick 6 to an Epiphone for the same reason. You'd have to see these guys to learn more about it, as when I saw them I really wasn't paying strict attention to the gear. They're really good, though, and worth it just to hear them, anyway.
Whitefang
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#2452160 - 11/25/12 12:39 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1961
I'd say even with a Squier strat these in your signal chain would give you the "Lennon" sound:

->compressor* -> Tech 21 Liverpool (Vox amp "simulator" pedal) -> amp set clean/lo gain

* studio compressors played a big part in the sound of guitar in early 60s records... since they were putting everything down onto 2 or 4 tracks and ultimately mixing in mono, usually. The Janglebox is made specifically to nail the sounds of that period, but I've used a Barber Tonepress and MXR Dynacomp for 60s gigs.

I play mostly Vox amps now, but when I played Fender amps the Liverpool was a quick way to nail the Vox sound for Beatles, Tom Petty, etc. I still use it with the Vox amps, along with the Blonde (Fender simulator) because it's awesome and cool, a way to change sounds without messing with amp settings.

On the guitar front, visually... as far as evoking the era, what about Canadian Godin-made Richmond guitars?

http://www.richmondguitarscanada.com/guitars.html

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#2452165 - 11/25/12 12:56 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: p90jr]
p90jr Offline
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Italia Rimini, switch out those mini-humbuckers for GFS New Yorkers...


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#2452244 - 11/26/12 06:22 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: p90jr]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Since the POD has already come up in this thread . . .

I was at a friend's place recently, with my PRS SE Singlecut (2 Korean-made HB's) and my GT-3, plugged into a little GK Bass amp. My buddy needed the sound of a Tele, and I was able to go in and dial up the sound he wanted in a minute or two, by using the Pickup Simulator and tweaking the EQ a bit. My buddy was really surprised at how easy it was to set up a pretty convincing Tele-into-Twin sound, with the rig I was using. If you can find a decent affordable guitar, that gets you close to the sound you need, a good multi-fx could be the missing link in your signal chain. Vox makes some decent multis, and that may be the place to start your search.
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#2452306 - 11/26/12 10:25 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Winston Psmith]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: p90jr
I'd say even with a Squier strat these in your signal chain would give you the "Lennon" sound:

->compressor* -> Tech 21 Liverpool (Vox amp "simulator" pedal) -> amp set clean/lo gain

* studio compressors played a big part in the sound of guitar in early 60s records... since they were putting everything down onto 2 or 4 tracks and ultimately mixing in mono, usually. The Janglebox is made specifically to nail the sounds of that period, but I've used a Barber Tonepress and MXR Dynacomp for 60s gigs.

I play mostly Vox amps now, but when I played Fender amps the Liverpool was a quick way to nail the Vox sound for Beatles, Tom Petty, etc. I still use it with the Vox amps, along with the Blonde (Fender simulator) because it's awesome and cool, a way to change sounds without messing with amp settings.


BINGO...

Originally Posted By: WinstonPsmith
Since the POD has already come up in this thread . . .

I was at a friend's place recently, with my PRS SE Singlecut (2 Korean-made HB's) and my GT-3, plugged into a little GK Bass amp. My buddy needed the sound of a Tele, and I was able to go in and dial up the sound he wanted in a minute or two, by using the Pickup Simulator and tweaking the EQ a bit. My buddy was really surprised at how easy it was to set up a pretty convincing Tele-into-Twin sound, with the rig I was using. If you can find a decent affordable guitar, that gets you close to the sound you need, a good multi-fx could be the missing link in your signal chain. Vox makes some decent multis, and that may be the place to start your search.


BINGO...
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#2452310 - 11/26/12 10:46 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Larryz]
Bartholomew Offline
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Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 395
Loc: Montreal
The closest I got was with a Peavey Tweed Delta Blues amp 15 inch speaker and thought it sounded better than a vintage AC30 I worked beside one night.

I personally feel that EL84 tubes are a big component in the sound. Or maybe it was EL34, but not 6L6 Fender. I think the amp is more important than the guitar choice in this situation. If you don't have a tech and/or pretty decent PA gear the only choice is to get your sound on the stage with an amp.

Every Epiphone I ever tried or bought had pickups that were almost OK in my opinion - so be prepared to invest more $$$ at some point if you go that route. Some of them have cheapo (not the better) Grover tuners and will also require work on the nut or a new bone nut to stay in tune plus the 3 way switch for the pickups is garbage, I just changed one for a better part.

I have a Gretsch Country Gent but usually play a Les Paul or tele. For what you are doing I would try/play a couple of Gretsch products first.
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#2452313 - 11/26/12 11:04 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Bartholomew]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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So, that's 3 votes for Richmonds now?
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#2452336 - 11/26/12 12:57 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
So, that's 3 votes for Richmonds now?


FWIW, I've never seen any Richmond instruments- I was seconding compression and ringing mids/upper-mids, and also the Vox/EL84 kinda sorta sound in general. (Previous post since edited.)
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#2452373 - 11/26/12 05:12 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Moucon Offline
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The key to the Ric sound is the pickup and tone capacitor. By rights, any of the flat P-90 type guitars (Epi Casino, Gretsch country gent., etc.) should sound pretty similar, especially if you knew how to hack the tone cap. I could be wrong on this - but I don't believe the Beatles recorded much with Ric 6-strings anyway. They used the Ric 12-string models. Your Strat is low-output single-coil... Frankly, I'd throw a little compression, chorus, and a slap-back delay on your Strat in the Neck+Middle position and see if it's in the ballpark. I bet you can get close.
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#2452375 - 11/26/12 05:35 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Moucon]
picker Offline
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John lennon's main axe for at least the first three albums was a Rickenbacker Capri 325. He played it a lot.
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#2452377 - 11/26/12 06:05 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: picker]
Andre Lower Offline
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Registered: 10/22/02
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Loc: Oakville - ON
Thanks guys, I'm learning a lot. Please keep it comming.
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#2452378 - 11/26/12 06:13 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Moucon]
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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Originally Posted By: Moucon
.... I could be wrong on this - but I don't believe the Beatles recorded much with Ric 6-strings anyway. They used the Ric 12-string models....


early days = Lennon with a 1958 maple 325. Eventually he gets it painted black. George was using a DuoJet he got in 1961. In 1962 they got the 2 Gibson J-160e acoustics. In 1963 George got a Country Gentleman, and a Rick 425. He picked up a second Country Gentleman later that year, as well as a Gretsch Tennessean. In 1964 and 1965 George got Rick 360-12 strings. In 1964 John gets a new Rick 325 in Jet-Glo, and a custom made 325-12, also in black, and for a short time, a Rick model 1996, which is a custom British number for an instrument very similar to the 325, but it was a loaner. I include it because it was used on some famous shows. In 1964, Fender was trying to get a promo deal with the Beatles, but could not get in touch with them. By early 1965 John and George had a pair of sonic blue Strats and George gets a Framus Hootenany 12 string and another Rick 360-12. In 1966 George gets a Gibson ES-345TD. In 1966 George got a Gibson SG Standard and a Burns Nu-Sonic bass, and John briefly used a Gretsch 6120 and got a Guild Starfire XII, while both got Epiphone Casinos. There is no evidence that all of these ended up on record... certainly none for the Strats, or the Guild.

Besides Pauls several Hofner basses he had an Epiphone Texan and a Casino. In 1965 he got a Rick 4001. This list does not include the many guitars they were loaned, given, prototypes, and other oddities that they did not use as Beatles.


Oh, and have we all forgotten the Vox Python strap???

That gets you from 1962 to 1967, according to Andy Babiuk, "Beatles Gear". Which gear was used on which recording sessions is covered a bit, but generally the Ricks (John;s primary electric seems to be the Ricj 325.) and the Gretsches, the Gibson J-160 and the Hofner basses seemed to be used the most.


Edited by Bill@Welcome Home Studios (11/26/12 06:14 PM)
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#2452407 - 11/27/12 01:40 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Andre Lower]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3147
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Another guitar option may be available from Dillion USA.

http://www.dillionguitars.com/guitar/electric/
(Scroll down a little)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht9OjHAWwgU&sns=em


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (11/27/12 01:42 AM)
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#2452452 - 11/27/12 08:27 AM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5427
Loc: Hwy 49, California
For looks I would go with a basic set of Ludwigs for Ringo, A Hofner Bass for Paul, a Rickenbacker for John and a Gretsch for George...

I was watching clips from Ed Sullivan last night on PBS and it was really funny how the program aligned with this thread on the Rickenbacker subject. All of the British Bands including the Beatles had a Rick 6 string. It was funny to watch CCR which had a Rick Bass and a Rick 6 string on Proud Mary, and the Beach Boys (a well known Fender band) using a Rick 12 on I Get Around...Both Brit and American bands of the 60's era liked having a Rick in the band. For the most part they made little or no difference in the sound until a 12 string Rick cut in and you knew you were listening to that jangley sound you only get from a Rick (at that time and for the most part, still today)...George was the first R&R player to inspire guitar players to pick up a 12 string Rick. If I wanted to capture the Beatles sound on a budget I would have John play a Rick 12 as you have a hard time seeing that it's 12 because of the headstock. John was better at singing and writing and George was better at guitar IMHO. Then you could have George and John switch off when you had a heavy 12string lead/rhythm part come up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Vp59dd-No <---- or you could just hire this guy! cool


Edited by Larryz (11/27/12 08:48 AM)

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#2452504 - 11/27/12 12:26 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Larryz]
p90junior Offline
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 57
John is underrated as a guitarist.

Someone mentioned "All My Loving," which is something I make people try to play when they say he sucked and laugh at them not being able to do it.

Then if you watch the live clips of "If I Needed Someone" he does the kinda Travis-picked riffs on the chorus (or bridge... whichever it is) while George is strumming the 12...

The rhythm guitarist: Always ignored and unappreciated... but worth their weight in gold, I tell you. I guess when they do their job perfectly you don't notice them.

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#2452507 - 11/27/12 12:44 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Larryz]
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 9613
Originally Posted By: Larryz
---- or you could just hire this guy! cool


Or Lawrence, who was in Wings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY884F2W1mw

or Ed Gerhard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJNywrmBKkU
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Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.


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#2452508 - 11/27/12 12:51 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: p90junior]
p90junior Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 57
George gets bashed, too.

He was a good Chuck Berry/Chet Atkins/Scotty Moore picker, but just as the Beatles hit big blues-based guitar took over rock and roll instead of that earlier style, that was parts country and jazz chord melody inspired.

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#2452511 - 11/27/12 12:58 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
p90junior Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 57
Originally Posted By: Bill@Welcome Home Studios
Originally Posted By: Larryz
---- or you could just hire this guy! cool


Or Lawrence, who was in Wings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY884F2W1mw

or Ed Gerhard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJNywrmBKkU



Did Lawrence play the great flamenco acoustic riff on "Goodnight Tonight" by Wings? I always thought that was brilliant bit to put in the middle of that song.

What a nice amplified acoustic sound Ed Gerhard has...

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#2452513 - 11/27/12 01:03 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: p90junior]
p90junior Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 57
or get one of these...


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#2452565 - 11/27/12 06:25 PM Re: Emulating the Rick sound on a different guitar [Re: p90junior]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 5427
Loc: Hwy 49, California
Originally Posted By: p90junior
John is underrated as a guitarist.

Someone mentioned "All My Loving," which is something I make people try to play when they say he sucked and laugh at them not being able to do it.

Then if you watch the live clips of "If I Needed Someone" he does the kinda Travis-picked riffs on the chorus (or bridge... whichever it is) while George is strumming the 12...


The rhythm guitarist: Always ignored and unappreciated... but worth their weight in gold, I tell you. I guess when they do their job perfectly you don't notice them.



Both John and George were great rhythm players and +1 on the rhythm players being ignored and unappreciated...I actually like playing rhythm better than playing lead guitar...probably cuz I sing and play solo a lot of the time and it really helps to have a good timining groove and some cool chords. cool

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