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#2443246 - 10/04/12 02:21 PM info on SG Systems amps?
picker Offline
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Does anyone else remember SG Amps from the mid 70's? The were big, clunky looking amps with aluminum rails around the edges to make you think they were road-case rugged, and had huge Captain Video-looking knobs. Also the first amp I ever saw with a built in phase shifter. A guy is selling a 2x12 SG amp that needs work for $100. Other than the obvious answer(how much work does it need, how are the cosmetics, etc) can anybody tell me if they'd buy it? It is tube, by the way. Anybody have fond remembrances of one, or is it better off being buried out back without a marker?
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#2443252 - 10/04/12 03:02 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: picker]
p90junior Offline
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 57
One turned up here on craigslist recently, and the guy said it was a division of Gibson, the actual headline was "vintage Gibson amp," but I think he was just making a connection with the "SG" name and Gibson... but now that I think about it, they do look like the ROAD-brand of amps from the '70s (that were always backline for American Bandstand when I was a kid)... I can't remember who made ROAD but I assumed it was Roland... okay, a quick search identifies ROAD as a division of Rickenbacker.



Okay, it seems sG was Gibson...



From what I understand this amp is a conglomeration of companies working together in the early seventies to create a new amplifier for Gibson. Its more then thirty years old and is still kicking. If you would like to know more about these amps you can search either cmi tube amp or sg systems but there are alot of different opinions out there.

Nels Cline wrote of an encounter with one as supplied backline on his website (" Amp Du Jour," an entertaining read) and gave it a bit of a "alright for sound, great for oddball looks" rating.

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#2443255 - 10/04/12 03:14 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: p90junior]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 9183
It was my understanding were Gibson also. Our Gibson dealer sold those. Later the sold Lab series amps.

CMI was the holding company that owned Gibson.


Edited by CEB (10/04/12 03:21 PM)
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#2443275 - 10/04/12 04:29 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: CEB]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Holy crap it's been a long time since I saw or even heard of one of those!!

Super oddball looking; the only one I ever saw- in real-life or in a photo or anything- was dead in a second-hand store.

"Built-in Maestro Phaser"- THAT should be a BIG clue as to SOME sort of Gibson-connection, smokily labyrinthine and Byzantine though it may be...

The sound of the amp in that video reminds me a little of a cool old MusicMan that I encountered in a guitar shop once years ago, a 2xEL34 head and 1x15 cab that was intended to be a bass amp. I thought it (the MM) had a great classic Blues tone that B.B. would have enjoyed....

See if you can snag that SG Sys amp for $75 or $50 and fix it up, picker! cool

p90junior- thanks for that cool Nels Cline link! cool
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#2443279 - 10/04/12 04:48 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Strategery Offline
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Registered: 02/24/07
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Loc: Georgia USA
You know, I want to say that GAIN section is Solid State, the Power amp section-tube, and the Reverb is that one 12AX7.
Just guessing.
YES...just googled and the gain section is SS.

Also....it could be like an older Peavey I had back then where you could play both the Clean and Gain channels separately or together and could blend any amount of both together.

QUESTION:
Have you been able to go through the knobs more to see if there is a BLEND channel knob and if so, have you tried to adjust it?

Just curious and cool amp find! rawk

Randy


Edited by Strategery (10/04/12 04:54 PM)
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#2444019 - 10/08/12 05:17 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Strategery]
picker Offline
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 13224
Loc: Near 12th Street and Vine...
I asked Myles about it, and he advised me to pass on it. So, I let it it go...
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#2444059 - 10/08/12 07:59 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: picker]
Bluesape Moderator Offline
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I have one. It's a 4x10 combo with huge-ass power tubes, maybe KT88's or bigger(not here now, so can't check) SS pre-amp, phase shifter, wave form, dishwasher size knobs, same layout as the one in the vid, just with more speakers, plus it has casters. Righteous old tank, sounds really cool, but hasn't been on a gig in years, due to being huge and heavy. Gibson DNA is in there somewhere, evinced by the Maestro footswitch. Very loud, at 125 watts, I believe, and harks back to the era of roadies and forklifts.
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#2444173 - 10/09/12 09:16 AM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Bluesape]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bluesape
I have one. It's a 4x10 combo with huge-ass power tubes, maybe KT88's or bigger(not here now, so can't check) SS pre-amp, phase shifter, wave form, dishwasher size knobs, same layout as the one in the vid, just with more speakers, plus it has casters. Righteous old tank, sounds really cool, but hasn't been on a gig in years, due to being huge and heavy. Gibson DNA is in there somewhere, evinced by the Maestro footswitch. Very loud, at 125 watts, I believe, and harks back to the era of roadies and forklifts.


Wow, Reif, I've gotta see and play through that one day! Now I've GOT to brave the moose and bears and beavers and beer and apes and make it up there some day... ! thu grin cool


Hmmmnn; a match made in Mad Scientist-Guitarist Gizmo Heaven? (At least visually?)

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#2444256 - 10/09/12 01:43 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
picker Offline
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 13224
Loc: Near 12th Street and Vine...
It's still for sale on the Kansas City Craigs List, if anyone is interested.
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#2704212 - 07/09/15 11:05 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: picker]
lordraptor1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 6
i signed up just to post in this thread even though it is old but still i see a few incorrect statements i wanted to comment on.

first the tubes that were originally in these amps were 8417 which are hard to find so some were converted to EL34, 6550, and 6l6 by owners of them.

second the SG212 from all information i have obtained was only produced 1 year making it extremely rare.

as far as what they are worth that is debateable but those who watch fleabay will say 300 to 400 but fleabay is an unreliable source because it fluctuates wildly at any given moment and people using it dont look at condition just what the lowest price sold for is. i persoanlly prefer a more reliable source for pricing, as such i actually called norms rare guitars in cali and talked to a guy who said that in good workign order they are worth $800 to $1200 to the right buyer

now they are great amps and have really great clean tones BUT the general consensus is the distortion side sucks LOL. well the only problem i have with the "distortion" side is that it is actually more of a fuzz which was wildly popular during the 70's.

the speakers in the sg-212 were eminence alnico speakers and to get an approximate date of the amp assuming it has the original "voiced for sg systems" eminence speakers you can get a date using the code on the speakers (in the case of the SG-212 i have it is 1974 which puts it at 41 years old.

the phaser is great in it but it was also available in a standalone unit which can still be obtained but last few i have seen all sold on fleabay for 350 to 450.

weight, i have read it was heavy, weighing in at 80 lbs, but to be honest i have picked up full tube heads that were heavier than the SG-212.

the amp is a HYBRID solid state preamp, tube power, as far as the 12AX7 i cant confirm or deny it is reverb BUT seeing as the amp has a spring reverb tank i doubt it is for reverb and i have to wonder if it might in fact actually be a hybrid preamp and tube power ( either way it is still a hybrid amp LOL).

ok with that all out of the way here are some pics of mine enjoy them grin :





















[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee116/lordraptor1/WP_20150707_14_43_47_Pro_1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee116/lordraptor1/WP_20150707_14_44_36_Pro.jpg[/img]

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#2704236 - 07/10/15 03:32 AM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: lordraptor1]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Registered: 04/05/02
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Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Quick/short reply: Cool! Thanks! Welcome to the GPF! cool
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#2704313 - 07/10/15 08:56 AM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6927
Loc: Hwy 49, California
Welcome aboard Lordraptor! I went back and watched the YouTube demo above that was posted by P90. I did not care for the reverb, fuzz or phase all that much, but those effects can all be corrected with pedals. Thanks for the info on the 80lbs, for me that's a deal killer. I sold my Fender Twin 2x12 with 4 6L6's as it was just too heavy @ 65lbs or so. I still have my Hot Rod 410 DeVille with 2 6L6's that weighs in @ 55lbs. I really like the Fender clean sound. The SG amp sounded real good on the clean side in the demo, with no buzz using the 2 8417's... cool


Edited by Larryz (07/10/15 08:59 AM)

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#2704374 - 07/10/15 11:45 AM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Larryz]
lordraptor1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 6
yeah 80lbs is a deal killer for most but here is the catch i have compared this to other 80lb amps and to be honest i dont see it. to me it isnt heavy at all ( you want heavy pick up a peavey VTM120 head. im waiting on a coupl of mullard tropical fish caps at the moment because i found a couple of cracked ones the other day while cleaning it ( one of which fell apart when i got the tooth brush near it LOL) but it is STILL working cant say that about a vintage "fender" amp. another thing ( although unconfirmed) is that it can be used with bass ( again unconfirmed) but i have read a couple of references to people using the sg212 model head (sg212 came in a head version and a combo amp version )with a bass. the old mestro phasers are still sought after and standalone versions on fleabay are HIGH LOL. but i will say that for clean tones the amp is great ( sadly to me it is just a decorative piece because im not a clean tone kinda guy ( closest to clean tone i get is the slash tone or if i am playing an intro like on warrants uncle toms cabin LOL).

anyway, as soon as i get the tropical fish caps replaced im planning on listing it on the dfw area and oklahoma city area craigslists for sale or trade. it is a great amp but i have to weigh keeping it as a knick-knack or getting rid of it for something i can actually use or want ( like gibson les paul, GK bass rig, vintage 87 celestion G12k-85 equipped peavey 412m straight cab with lightning bolt style logo.

the vid posted above is of one that needs service, there is also a vid on youtube of youtube you could check out and that is one that is of a 1975 david allen coe performance of long haired redneck ( david allen coe for those that dont know was famous in the 70's and 80's and is still doing music today).

with that said i hope i was able to celar up some of the misinformation regarding the sg212, there isnt aot of info out there on them just a lot of heresay and opinions.

one last thing to note and is some source of confusion and that is the sg systems amp being or not being gibson. well here are my thoughts:

1. made during the time CMI (chicago musical instruments) owned gibson ( which is another story for debate considering all references show 69 as last year of cmi's owndership of gibson but the 1974 date on this amp proves that cmi and gibson were still joined after 69)
2. sg systems named after gibson SG or just a happy coincidence? you be the judge LOL
3. maestro ( yep a known gibson brand) phase shifter built into the amp
4. if you call gibson for a schematic of the SG systems SG-212 amp they will send you one ( which IMHO is the nail in the coffing that the sg systems amp is in fact a "gibson" product.


Edited by lordraptor1 (07/10/15 11:46 AM)

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#2704459 - 07/10/15 05:34 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Larryz]
lordraptor1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: Larryz
Welcome aboard Lordraptor! I went back and watched the YouTube demo above that was posted by P90. I did not care for the reverb, fuzz or phase all that much, but those effects can all be corrected with pedals. Thanks for the info on the 80lbs, for me that's a deal killer. I sold my Fender Twin 2x12 with 4 6L6's as it was just too heavy @ 65lbs or so. I still have my Hot Rod 410 DeVille with 2 6L6's that weighs in @ 55lbs. I really like the Fender clean sound. The SG amp sounded real good on the clean side in the demo, with no buzz using the 2 8417's... cool


yeah but to be fair the sounds in that clip arent actually accurate, it was mentioned in the vid that it needed service and by the sound i heard i agree it needs serviced. in all honesty any amp that uses tubes be it a full tube or hybrid 30 years old ( or older) need a complete electrolytic cap replacement. my 87 vtm120 had no guitar output just a buzz when i got it and it had some bad electrolytics so i replaced the visibly bad oneson it ( the peavey that is) and after doing so i got some guitar sound but it was still bad so on a whim i said f it im going to replace ever electrolytic on it and i did. however they were coming in staggered and as they came in i would put them in and then give it a try and every time i got an improvement, when the last of the caps came in and were replaced the old peavey sprang to life and sounded perfect, IMHO it makes a marshall JCM800 look like a turd. people think i am crazy when i tell them if i were to sell my peavey i would want 1200 to 1500 but considering it is recapped, matched 6l6, matched 12ax7 plus some NOS sovtex 6l6gb, and some NOS ecc83 i think it is more than fair also factoring in that for the asking price you get a complete ready to play rig ( including matched 1987 peavey cab with original celestion G12k-85 speakers) for lass than the cost of a marshall head only. but still people associate brand names with quality and sound which is a load of crap especially these days. best example would be gibson vs epiphone, i have see far more gibsons new in stores for sale with issues with frets, finish, bridges, etc than epi but peopel will still pay the high price tag for teh "gibson" name.

oh well thats the way it is, i personally would love to have a honeyburst gibson les paul but out of my budget ( and that isnt likely to change LOL) and sadly when i do get something good i am considering selling ( like this sg212 i pictured above) no one wants to pay for it because it dont have some brand name like gibson, or fender on it LOL.

and thanks for the welcome people

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#2704462 - 07/10/15 06:37 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: lordraptor1]
Fred_C Offline
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Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 1482
Loc: PA
Agreed. IMO, Epi is paying far more attention to QA/QC than Gibson these days and the Peavey Classic series remains a very good value.
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#2704469 - 07/10/15 09:01 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6927
Loc: Hwy 49, California
I went back and gave the video another listen with the headphones on and the amp sounded very good. The reverb and phase sounded better but the fuzz/distortion still needs some work...one thing about listening to YouTube, if you put on the headphones it makes a world of difference over the little computer speaker. I'll bet that amp sounds even better after he had it gone through at the shop...

+1 on the Epi. I think it's one of the best deals on the market. My buddy put 57 Gibson humbuckers, new pots and a Bigsby on his older 335 Sheridan and it sounds and plays as good as any Gibson 335 for a whole lot less money. The newer Epi's have such good pickups that there is no need to swap them out anymore IMHO. A lot of jazz boxes are using Epi pickups these days.

I've never been a big fan of Peavey and as I indicated above, I'm more of a Fender kind of guy when it comes to Amps. But one thing I will say for Peavey is that they have always been dependable and roadworthy. They last forever! After years and years in the storage closet, you probably do have to change those caps. I'll bet it works good now! cool


Edited by Larryz (07/10/15 09:09 PM)

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#2704560 - 07/11/15 10:05 AM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Larryz]
SEHpicker Offline
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Registered: 05/16/02
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Loc: Inverness, Florida
+1 on Epi. I bought a used Epi SG Honeyburst for $299 a couple of years ago from GC. There were some fret issues and GC agreed to throw in a full crown & level and set-up - about $150 worth of work. So now I have a $300 Epi SG that plays better than any Gibson SG I've ever played. Soon I will replace the stock humbuckers with something better. Great guitar. I think Epiphone is consciously trying to surpass Gibson's build quality... which is getting easier to do since Gibson's build standards have gone down almost as fast as their prices have gone up.
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#2704565 - 07/11/15 10:17 AM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Larryz]
lordraptor1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: Larryz


But one thing I will say for Peavey is that they have always been dependable and roadworthy. They last forever!



sadly this isnt the case, just like every other company peavey quality has been falling over the past few years. with peavey it started slipping late 80's and it got really bad when they outsourced their manufacturing and assembly overseas, so with that i tend to stick with second hand peavey and only stuff made 1989 and earlier.

as far as the epi thing goes grin

here is a pic of my 2013 epi les paul standard pkus top pro:




and my 2015 one off:








and by one off i mean i built it from scratch grin


Edited by lordraptor1 (07/11/15 10:41 AM)

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#2704596 - 07/11/15 12:33 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: lordraptor1]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6927
Loc: Hwy 49, California
I met my old hippie buddy bass player in 79. He has a Peavey Bass Amp (probably bought in 1980). It still plays as good as it ever did. He still has PA speakers from the same time period. They are all beyond the pale when it comes to longevity and roadworthy still...I didn't know the newer stuff was having problems. There is one newer Peavey tube amp I would take a look at if I was in the market as it has a great sound and great reverb in the demos I've heard. I never cared for Peavey reverbs until this model came out...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ValveKIIH


Those are some sweet looking Epi pics with the coil tapping and I'm sure you can play the Devil out that one off with a fantastic job done on it to say the least! twothumbs


Edited by Larryz (07/11/15 12:34 PM)

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#2704629 - 07/11/15 05:54 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Larryz]
lordraptor1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 6
thanks for the kind words on my guitars, i was hoping to start building guitars and selling them but sadly people want "name brand" so i gave up on that, i also gave up on hand wound pups because again people want "name brand". the one off has cts pots, switchcraft switch and jack orange drop tone caps, and has seymour duncan APH-2s slash shop floor custom pups ( shop floor customs are just chrome or gold covered versions that you have to get your sd dealer to special order for you ( fleabay price for the set was 223.99 + shipping).

anyway, i got the 2 cracked caps replaced today and the distortion side perked up a bit but still isnt perfect to me and the the clean also is a little better as well. after getting the caps replaced and giving it a test run i listed the amp locally for sale, i called norms in cali and a place in florida and another in tennesse and all 3 said the same $800 to $1200 worth so i listed it for 800. had to list locally because shipping would be $105 to 110 and getting buyers to pony up for shipping impossible for one and for a second 2 of the 3 people who gave me quotes said they no longer ship due to hassles with customer complaining item arrived non functioning so i prefer not to take that chance so i am doing local pickup only which shouldnt be to hard for people in the dfw or OKC areas since i am smack dab in the middle LOL.

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#2704644 - 07/11/15 06:36 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: lordraptor1]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6927
Loc: Hwy 49, California
You might leave the amp on and plugged in over night and give the caps some time to charge up...The price on the pups sounds reasonable and the tone knobs looked cool..

My buddy sold a guitar and amp to two different buyers recently on Craigslist. We live in the outback too, but he met his buyers half way and delivered the products to avoid shipping and return shipping issues. We have a local Sacramento,CA area Craigslist which keeps cash buyers within 50 miles and it only takes a half hour to meet them half way... cool

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#2704659 - 07/11/15 08:58 PM Re: info on SG Systems amps? [Re: Larryz]
lordraptor1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/15
Posts: 6
yeah but i have had to many buyers get to meeting location and either not show up or bother to call. so i will meet in town but out of town meetings i wont do anymore, been burned to many times.

anyway i just made a vid with my cell phone ( i kow it sucks and playing is bad as well but this will give a basic idea of how the amp sounds at least and a comparison to the original youtube vid that was posted of one of these amps grin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsz-FepklhY

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