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#2237825 - 10/15/10 01:30 AM Daskin!
omnipoly Offline
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Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Sweden
Any thoughts about this?!

Now I don't have to build a "Janko" myself. smile
Daskin



Edited by omnipoly (10/15/10 01:31 AM)
Edit Reason: Forgot the link...

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#2237949 - 10/15/10 11:57 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
marino Offline
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Actually, I've been dreaming of something like this for a long time, and started a few disussions on this forum. Of course, it would be worth to learn an entirely new system *only* if a consistent part of the music community would agree to do the same.
But I'd love to have one, if only for my own amusement. Can you imagine? All scales and arpeggios with the same fingering! Transposing? A breeze. Large leaps, generally much easier.
Of course, it remains to be seen how well this particular brand of keyboard responds to one's touch, and how much it costs. From the pictures, looks like an elegant implementation, btw. thu

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#2237955 - 10/15/10 12:17 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: marino]
iLaw Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 1589
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: marino
... Of course, it remains to be seen how well this particular brand of keyboard responds to one's touch,



Larry.

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#2237957 - 10/15/10 12:21 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9380
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Well that was interesting.
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#2347111 - 10/11/11 06:23 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
omnipoly Offline
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Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Sweden
Some progress on the website. Check the video! smile

Daskin

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#2347113 - 10/11/11 06:37 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 502
Loc: Spain, Badajoz
why.

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#2347118 - 10/11/11 06:54 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: offnote]
omnipoly Offline
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Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Sweden
smile

Well... Maybee you think the QWERTY system is logical as well?

To me this is very interesting. I like logical stuff. Franz Liszt said "This invention will have replaced the present piano keyboard in fifty years' time!".

Cheers!

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#2347123 - 10/11/11 07:01 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 502
Loc: Spain, Badajoz
Originally Posted By: omnipoly
Franz Liszt said "This invention will have replaced the present piano keyboard in fifty years' time!".


and he was damn wrong, probably drunken as well.

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#2347132 - 10/11/11 07:24 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: offnote]
omnipoly Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Sweden
No, I think he was just before his time. I think we'll get there eventually...

Can't you see the beauty with this keyboard layout? Imagine the same fingering for every key! idea

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#2347140 - 10/11/11 07:42 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 502
Loc: Spain, Badajoz
Originally Posted By: omnipoly
I think we'll get there eventually...


no way.

Originally Posted By: omnipoly

Can't you see the beauty with this keyboard layout?


no I can't.

Originally Posted By: omnipoly

Imagine the same fingering for every key! idea


making years of practicing in different scales useless?
no, thank you.

p.s.
How about the touch and feel of the ivory key on real acoustic piano? I bet you play electronic instruments only...


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#2347150 - 10/11/11 08:06 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: offnote]
Cygnus64 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
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Originally Posted By: offnote
Originally Posted By: omnipoly
Franz Liszt said "This invention will have replaced the present piano keyboard in fifty years' time!".


and he was damn wrong, probably drunken as well.

Probably stoned too.

As for the keyboard, it reminds me of a musical version of "Esperanto". laugh

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#2347166 - 10/11/11 08:54 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
non c'e futuro Offline
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Registered: 07/27/11
Posts: 437
Loc: Spain
Originally Posted By: omnipoly
smile
Well... Maybee you think the QWERTY system is logical as well?


Yes, the QWERTY keyboard is very logical, as it distributes the letters placing the most used letters in the most ergonomic spots...in ENGLISH.
In other languages the qwerty keyboard is absolutely ilogical, but we still use it instead of some weird keyboard designs because it's not worth the PITA of learning how to use a different keyboard.

That's probably why the daskin design failed more than 100 years ago, and I don't really see how it can overcome this essential flaw today freak

Liszt was an amazing musician and piano player, but he's not remembered for his clever vision on engineering, is he? smile

I will stick to the good ole'-non user-friendly in terms of transposing-88 keys linear keyboard.
I kinda love it the way it is smile

PS
BTW, I saw once a guitar with a curved neck, more ergonomic and easier to learn and play than regular guitars, but I've never seen that kind of weird thing ever played by anyone...

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#2347169 - 10/11/11 09:02 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: non c'e futuro]
Cygnus64 Offline
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Originally Posted By: non c'e futuro

That's probably why the daskin design failed more than 100 years ago, and I don't really see how it can overcome this essential flaw today freak

Liszt was an amazing musician and piano player, but he's not remembered for his clever vision on engineering, is he? smile




I don't think any of that is why it failed. I think it has to do with human nature and history. My Esperanto comparison was only half-joking: it's hard to start a new language after a millennium or so of the old one. The same with the keyboard: who is going to teach that?

When I ( and a bunch of us 40-something Americans here) was in grade school, there was the big push: The US was switching to the metric system. Waiting...waiting.... laugh Didn't happen, they couldn't convince Americans to change their ways, not matter what advantages there were.

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#2347178 - 10/11/11 09:17 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: Cygnus64]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 502
Loc: Spain, Badajoz
As so far musical instruments makers cannot produce decent midi piano controller so let's allow them first to accomplish that before we switch to something as radical and silly like this.

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#2347185 - 10/11/11 09:28 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: Cygnus64]
Toano88 Offline
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Quote:
BTW, I saw once a guitar with a curved neck, more ergonomic and easier to learn and play than regular guitars, but I've never seen that kind of weird thing ever played by anyone...


confused

Almost all modern guitars have some degree of curvature. Though it has its trade offs. Smaller radius necks are easier to bar chord, the trade off being string bending is more difficult. The preferences of neck radius (straight or compound), fret gauge/height, string height are as personal a preference as keyboard action or boxers/briefs. All necks are slightly bowed upward for string relief and aids in getting tuning 'agreement' up the neck. No guitar is perfectly tuned, many devices have been used to compensate at the nut or bridge, one builder uses compensated frets that are difficult to get used to, and look terrible like squiggly lines, but it has its fans. But again nearly every single modern guitar made has a curved radius between 9.5" - 20" and some are compound radius. The compound was radius was very expensive until the invention of computer controlled lathes and C&C machines.

Fingerboard (wikipedia)


Edited by Toano88 (10/11/11 09:29 AM)
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#2347208 - 10/11/11 10:36 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: Toano88]
non c'e futuro Offline
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Registered: 07/27/11
Posts: 437
Loc: Spain
Oh no, the one I was referring to was a prototype of a really curved guitar. The neck was curved and twisted -curved as a bow backwards, and the fret side was also twisted from frontal to an upper angle position close to the tuners, let's say.
Really strange instrument.

Allegedly this helped the hand, wrist and elbow to make more natural moves, I was looking for a picture of it, but no luck so far!


Edited by non c'e futuro (10/11/11 10:40 AM)

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#2347209 - 10/11/11 10:43 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: non c'e futuro]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 502
Loc: Spain, Badajoz
wonder what strings were used...also curved I guess...

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#2347213 - 10/11/11 10:52 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: offnote]
cleomenesII Offline
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Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 160
Loc: UK Oxford
Regarding the QWERTY keyboard, I heard that this was developed as a less efficient layout, in order to slow down super fast typists, because early typewriters could not cope, and jammed regularly at high typing speeds. Perhaps this is an urban myth...

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#2347218 - 10/11/11 11:02 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: cleomenesII]
mate stubb Offline
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No, that is the truth. Speed typists prefer the Dvorak layout, which places the most commonly used keys immediately under the fingers.

QWERTY was designed so that the typewriter hammers for common 2 letter combinations were not physically adjacent, and could have time to retract before another one jammed it. It had the practical effect of slowing down typists.

I once watched a Letterman show where a guest was the world champion speed typist. He put her to the test and all that came out was gibberish. Turns out she uses a Dvorak kbd and neglected to tell anyone at the show. Oops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard


Edited by mate_stubb (10/11/11 11:04 AM)
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#2347223 - 10/11/11 11:09 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: offnote]
iLaw Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 1589
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: offnote
wonder what strings were used...also curved I guess...

I think this is the concept he means:



Larry.

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#2347228 - 10/11/11 11:15 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: iLaw]
Cygnus64 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
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There has been an attempt to make "ergonomic" rolleyes string instruments, like this thing:

ugly viola

Someone has also invented a bow that works somewhat like a hula-hoop. It goes around the entire body. I'm too lazy/uninterested to google for a pic.

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#2347229 - 10/11/11 11:21 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: Cygnus64]
offnote Offline
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Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 502
Loc: Spain, Badajoz
this circular approach i would justify though, comes handy for very long runs...



also you can close one part of the keybed not used at the moment.

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#2347236 - 10/11/11 11:30 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: iLaw]
Toano88 Offline
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Registered: 04/30/10
Posts: 2359
Loc: Toano, Virginia, USA
Okay that picture explains it. While I believe that would work well on a large scale such as the bass, I would have to play one to really judge on a guitar. The problems I see are:
1) Bending, seems to me a string would fret out if bent too far.
2) Action, the string height on most electric guitars is really, really low. I don't see how you maintain a string height less than 1mm above each fret.

Guitarists especially the young ones aren't afraid to experiment. You have all types of guitars floating around. Some have odd numbers of strings, I've seen 11 and twenty string variations. Some with drone strings some only meant for two handed tapping. That is just the type of bass our bassist would use he has several like this:


His are 5 strings though.


Edited by Toano88 (10/11/11 11:33 AM)
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#2347266 - 10/11/11 01:08 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: offnote]
omnipoly Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: offnote
Originally Posted By: omnipoly
I think we'll get there eventually...


no way.


Well, you never know...

Originally Posted By: offnote
Originally Posted By: omnipoly

Can't you see the beauty with this keyboard layout?


no I can't.


Ok.

Originally Posted By: offnote
Originally Posted By: omnipoly

Imagine the same fingering for every key! idea


making years of practicing in different scales useless?
no, thank you.


Nobody said you have to stop playing "ordinary" pianos. With that logic you can't learn any new instrument, language etc.

Alright, so we're old dogs who put years in tedious fingerings and scales, but I would definitely give a "janko" to my child. By the way, I don't think all would be in vain. I think one could adapt quite easily.

Originally Posted By: offnote

p.s.
How about the touch and feel of the ivory key on real acoustic piano?


Check this out!


Originally Posted By: offnote
I bet you play electronic instruments only...


I'm classically trained and make my living playing real grand pianos. wink

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#2347300 - 10/11/11 03:49 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
iLaw Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 1589
Loc: Chicago
Omni,

Don't let the grumps around here get to you. Janko keyboards are a lot of fun to play around on.

And here's a guy who's gigging on one he build himself:



Larry.

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#2347335 - 10/11/11 07:02 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: Cygnus64]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5358
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Cygnus64
There has been an attempt to make "ergonomic" rolleyes string instruments, like this thing:

ugly viola


I'd buy it if I had the money. Several people on the viola mailing list back in the day gave it high marks for ergonomics - the ones who have actually held one in their hands and played it, instead of just looking at a picture. cool


Edited by GovernorSilver (10/11/11 07:04 PM)
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#2347358 - 10/12/11 12:32 AM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
omnipoly Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Sweden
I just want to share a link to another approach I find interesting!

Uniform keyboard system

Check out the power point presentation. smile

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#2374724 - 01/11/12 05:18 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: omnipoly]
oakn Offline
Member

Registered: 01/11/12
Posts: 4
Loc: MI
I realize this is the Keyboard Corner... but I play a harp based on the chromatic keyboard system, the cross strung chromatic harp. (See wikipedia for fuller information.)

A variation of cross stringing for a WHOLE TONE harp system was devised for harp. It was inspired by the Janko system. I've been studying and playing this system for several years now. It definitely feels intuitive and more kinesthetic. It is most definitely isomorphic.

All this to say, I am absolutely fascinated with the Janko system and am looking forward to playing a Janko keyboard system whether Daskin, Chromatone, or homebuilt.

Players I've written to claim it is a wonderful system to work with [From my experience, I'm guessing with some time behind it.]

I'm wishing there was a group somewhere, yahoo, MusicPlayer or elsewhere where players actually talked about their experiences. Most of the players of this format are in Japan.

If you ever hear of such a group. Let me know.

Best regards,

O Kn
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Oakn

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#2374792 - 01/11/12 09:11 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: Toano88]
Jim Alfredson Offline
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It's pretty interesting. Would be fun to play around with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hURZ2z2-M
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#2375392 - 01/13/12 12:46 PM Re: Daskin! [Re: Jim Alfredson]
oakn Offline
Member

Registered: 01/11/12
Posts: 4
Loc: MI
I like the Daskin version used in the video because it has a bit more room for the fingers verses the chromatone. Unlike the uniform keyboard, it is a full Janko type system so it has greater fingering options. Unlike the Bluthner/ Haessler custom Janko grand acoustic piano, which can be special ordered, the Daskin is multiple of thousands dollars less. Still, any of these Janko inspired (or arranged) offshoots would be well worth having and playing on.

There is a Bluthner store in Lansing... I keep hoping, by accident they get a Janko formatted grand shipped to them and don't know what to do with it and by miracle I can study on it.
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