Would The Doors Had Their Fame If R Manzarek Had Used A B-3?

[richwhite9]

 

Just like people who put Kurt Cobain on a pedestal. I can accept thinking he was talented, but to make a hero out a rich rock star who committed suicide? It doesn't make sense to me; maybe it would if I were still a teenager, who knows?

 

When I heard Cobain died I had to eat my words. I thought he had the tortured artist schtick down cold and executed it better than anyone. It was all fake and contrived of course designed to suck in a new generation of kids with the suicidal existential angst thing that Morrison worked so well.

[retrokeys]

I was fortunate enough to see the Doors on Halloween night 1968 at Freedom Hall in Louisville Ky. By using Western Union (really, honestly!) and wiring in the ticket money as soon as we heard the concert announced on radio, we scored 2nd row center seats. A great show. Looking back, it was the time period when the Doors were as good live as they ever got. I even got backstage and got Ray's autograph. I still have it. The only rock star souvenir I ever cared enough to get. I moved on, bought a Hammond and got more into blues and funk but have always had a soft spot for the Doors. If nothing else, the band uniquely explored the the darker side of the 60's and if they haven't worn well...so it goes.

[Cygnus64]

 

When I heard Cobain died I had to eat my words. I thought he had the tortured artist schtick down cold and executed it better than anyone.

My guess is that there were really two parts: The tortured artist schtick and the actual, substance abuse-fueled depression.

 

An entertainer can give the public any game face they wish. A good example are comedians, many of them have an underlying angst, but we don't know it. The outside tortured artist schtick can be just schtick, even for a person suffering from depression or drug abuse.

[Moonglow]

Boldface added:

 

My guess is that there were really two parts: The tortured artist schtick and the actual, substance abuse-fueled depression. ....

Actually, it has been my experience that, more often than not, folks in these type of situations initially tend to self-medicate the underlying depression (or other mental health disorder) with drugs.....not to say that it doesn't happen the other way around. From what I have heard informally from news reports, articles, television shows, etc., Mr. Cobain suffered from bi-polar disorder. In either case, a vicious downward spiral tends to develop: The person is depressed so they use drugs to feel better, then they crash and feel even worse so they need more drugs, then they feel even more depressed.....you get the idea. You can jump on this merry-go-round at any point with the same net result.

[Cygnus64]

Boldface added:

 

My guess is that there were really two parts: The tortured artist schtick and the actual, substance abuse-fueled depression. ....

Actually, it has been my experience that, more often than not, folks in these type of situations initially tend to self-medicate the underlying depression (or other mental health disorder) with drugs.....not to say that it doesn't happen the other way around.

Right. That's why I said substance abuse-fueled. It's like adding jet fuel to a car. I don't doubt that he had some serious problems, he surely did. He assumedly brought them out even further with the booze and drugs.

[MikeT156]

It was really a shame about Jim Morrison. I was "in attendance" during the 1960's (I turned 21 two months after going to Woodstock) so I was old enough to buy booze in any state and usually did. Drugs were everywhere and a lot of people took anything they could get their hands on. Back then I remember seeing and hanging with people that would drink and drug to the point of death. It was sort of like they were trying to see how high they could get before dieing. Absolutely crazy. Most people are better informed these days about drugs, but alcohol continues to be a problem for many people. People have to WANT to get sober and go to rehab willingly. I recall picking a friend of mine up at a rehab and the first thing he wanted to do was stop at a bar, immediately. I told him I was responsible for him getting home SOBER and if he wanted to drink he would have to find a way to do it once he got home to his parents house. He was one of those people that really shouldn't drink. Absolutely no power over alcohol.

 

I think Jim Morrison was one of those people.

 

Mike T.

[Eric Iverson]

I find it amazing how some artists are able to be productive in spite of their substance abuse problems. I think of Charlie Parker, one of the greatest jazz players ever. But he died at 34 or 35 - somehow I can't see emulating his LIFESTYLE, though I might learn a few of his LICKS.

[Outkaster]

It was really a shame about Jim Morrison. I was "in attendance" during the 1960's (I turned 21 two months after going to Woodstock) so I was old enough to buy booze in any state and usually did. Drugs were everywhere and a lot of people took anything they could get their hands on. Back then I remember seeing and hanging with people that would drink and drug to the point of death. It was sort of like they were trying to see how high they could get before dieing. Absolutely crazy. Most people are better informed these days about drugs, but alcohol continues to be a problem for many people. People have to WANT to get sober and go to rehab willingly. I recall picking a friend of mine up at a rehab and the first thing he wanted to do was stop at a bar, immediately. I told him I was responsible for him getting home SOBER and if he wanted to drink he would have to find a way to do it once he got home to his parents house. He was one of those people that really shouldn't drink. Absolutely no power over alcohol.

 

 

 

I think Jim Morrison was one of those people.

 

Mike T.

 

Good for you. I have been an intervention specialist for awhile now and I have heard a lot of those stories. Especially when I worked for the NYS Quitline.

[BigJPatton]

They would have bad their fame but the music would not have been as good, the Rhodes bass sound was so important, it stood out in the mix much more than a B3 would have, and the Vox had that simple sound that I hated when I was young, but love now, I think all the players in the band were really important to their lasting success, but Jim is actually the one that many didn't like in my early music circles, he was the pretty boy poet, the others were the "sound". I think if Ray used a B3 for all those songs they would be just another classic rock band instead of the USA's greatest classic rock band, it was that important.

[Avanti]

Hi! Maybe too old post but whatever please tell me if this is not the place to ask.

 

I'm producing the song "Love Street" and wondering if someone can help me about the organ & piano choice 'cause I'm not sure what they used.

 

Looks like a Chapel organ at the beginning Manzarek did it with the Farfisa?

 

And what about the piano sound, is like some kind of electric piano but sometimes looks like an acoustic with some treatment, not sure.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Cheers!

[Jazz+]

doors = light my fire = jim morrison

keys irrelevant, could have been a guitar band and equally as successful if not more so (guitar is more expressive with single notes)

only keyboardists think otherwise

B3 would sound better than Vox

ray's jazz playing sucked, not so for british rocker brian auger

[Jazz+]

morrison's vocal phrasing (he didn't know much about syncopation)

is so square compared to lennon and mccartney

the doors had a heavy handed square rhythmic feel overall

 

roadhouse blues is their best attempt at hip rhythmic feel, but it's stiff. so white... they imported lee oskar to give it some soul

[Doc Tonewheel]

Ray produced the LA punk band X and played Hammond on several tracks of their 'Los Angeles' album.

[EricBarker]

I know Ray switched to a Gibson Kalamazoo around "Waiting for the Sun" era. I've read that the Kalamazoo was made by Lowery, and identical to the model that Pete Townsend famously used for the intro to Baba O'Riley, as well as Don't Get Fooled Again.

 

As the OP implies, about 80% of the "B3 Sound" is the Leslie. B3s are big and bitchy, so I can understand why a road warrior like Ray would want to stick with small transistor organs. But the cabinet always confounded me. Not only does the Leslie rotate, but it has that warmth that nicely sculpts the piercing tone of organs (particularly nasally transistors). And the rotor just gives that static sound some motion, even if never spin it up. As someone said, Ray was pretty square, so were all of them in their own weird way... awkward crew, but they made some FANTASTIC tunes.

 

But yes, the Doors would have been just fine had Ray used a B3, better in fact. I have to listen through Ray's awkward choice of gear. I don't even look upon it fondly. It was his call, but IMO, not the right one.

[o0Ampy0o]

I've read that the Kalamazoo was made by Lowery, and identical to the model that Pete Townsend famously used for the intro to Baba O'Riley, as well as Don't Get Fooled Again....

Are you a Millennial?

[conundrum]

I guess no one can answer the reason for the zombie bump. He should"ve started a new thread, but the parody threads are a bit over the top.

[area51recording]

I have to confess, I've never dug The Doors, and the cheesy organ is, for me, a huge reason why. The other was that I never was into the Lizard King's unique pastiche of drug infused imagery laced with a vaudville vocal delivery. I would have definitely enjoyed them more with a B3 in the equation, but still not enough to move me, I don't think....

[Delaware Dave]

Good post. I liked the story. I never was a Doors fan. To me they were a little overated. Morrison seemed like he was a dick to work with.

Outkaster, back in the mid 80's when I lived in Buffalo I use to go see a band called Crystal Ship. The lead singer looked, acted and talked like Jim Morrison (also did the same drugs, I think). Pretty popular band. I met him backstage in one of the club's green rooms, strange dude. I think he really believed that he was Jim.

[Bill H.]

Back then I used to dream about how much better the Doors would sound with someone like Billy Preston on keyboards. And I still somewhat feel that way today, although nostalgia makes everything from that time period sound a little better than it used to. Hell I even like BJ Thomas...

 

Manzarek did hit it out of the park with "Riders On The Storm" though - I'll give him that.

[o0Ampy0o]

The only thing about The Doors I liked was how Coppolla used the beginning of their song timed with a napalm explosion in Apocalypse Now. To me they were very uncool when there were cool and not cool bands and music if that makes sense. I especially despised the keyboards and about as much Morrison's vocals. So maybe a very dominating B3 drowning out the vocals would have helped.

[Mark Schmieder]

Such a surprise to see how little love there is for The Doors on this forum! I bought all their albums in the late 80's when I was trying to "get over" my "snobbery", but in retrospect I had the right idea from the start, that they were a stiff, square, uncool band with little passion or swing.

 

I think it's quite telling that I never have the urge to put on any of their songs. I don't mind them if I hear them, for the most part, but they just don't connect with me emotionally at all.

 

As for the transistor organ sound, I think it worked a lot better in The Animals than it did for The Doors. But there's a lot of other things that worked better for The Animals as well. :-)

[Mykhailo]

We also should keep in mind that "most" rock groups were also using combo organs back in those days. Many of us got tired of hauling around a B and twin leslies.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

 

I actually had the immense privilege of meeting Ray back in the 90s, and coincidentally the first question I asked him when we got to chatting was why he didin"t play B3 from the get go. He mentioned the schlep factor was one consideration, but of equal consideration was a local B3 player who used to play the strip, and for the life of me I can"t remember the name Ray dropped. Ray, being the humble gentlemen that he was, admitted that he and other keyboard players hanging around the strip in those days were pretty much too intimidated to play B3 as this local cat was just too good. Wish I could remember the guy"s name! When I think about the conversation, it may have been Jimmy Smith, but that was a while back... Regardless, Ray definitely seemed to convey that proper B3 playing was just not his bag. There were no clones in those days. Either you could afford a B3, knew how to play and maintain it, (and were prepared to shlep it), or you simply opted for a combo.

 

Personally, I understood much later that Ray was primarily a piano player at heart, and like most of us who trained on piano, you realize that the B3 is it"s own thing. I totally get why he primarily played the combo. Lots of players preferred it in that era, and through subsequent eras. Auggie Meyer, Alan Price, Steve Nieve, etc. The Hammond is not everyone"s bag.

 

In my biased personal view, Ray is #1. â¤ï¸ Love everything about him. So unique. So original. Unafraid to be himself. Love that he never anglicized his Polish last name. Love how he juxtaposed his south-side musical influences with baroque counterpoint. Love how he rocked the piano bass while soloing. Love his humble, gentlemanly demeanour. Love how later on, John Doe and X and all of the west coast punks dug Ray. Ray"s my man. Wish he was still with us.

[o0Ampy0o]

Imagine an effect named the Star Doork Entersurpriser

 

Used as a voice effect you speak into a mic.

 

The slider all the way left is flat, monotonous, bland, hard-edged, lower to mid registers and sounds like Jim Morrison.

 

 

 

The slider all the way right is excited, expressive, colorful, soft-edged, mid to higher registers and sounds like William Shatner.

 

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

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