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#2154248 - 01/16/10 12:00 PM chord nomeclature question
d Offline
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Is there a standard term for a dim. chord with a major 7th ?
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#2154264 - 01/16/10 01:02 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: d]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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I'd think that (using C for example) CdimMaj7 would be the best way to put it; it is, after all, simply a diminished triad with the Major 7th put on top.

Cmb5Maj7 seems a bit awkward, doesn't it?
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#2154284 - 01/16/10 02:09 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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isn't a dim chord a bunch of stacked major 7ths?
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#2154339 - 01/16/10 07:18 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill@Welcome Home Studios
isn't a dim chord a bunch of stacked major 7ths?


Na, it's essentially a stack of minor 3rds;

r b3 b5 = diminished triad


r b3 b5 bb7 = dim7


r b3 b5 b7 = half-dim7 (aka m7-5, m7b5)


Halfnote's proposed chord is:

r b3 b5 7

which could be called dimMaj7 ,

and which could be played, with C as the root, as:

8 6 4 4 x x

fingering for a CdimMaj7 chord.

Doubtless there are loads of other inversions, voicings, and fingerings to be found that will get you a cup of dimMaj7.
_______________________________________________________________

Now, an addb9 chord, made of a 2nd-inversion triad with the flat 9th put underneath in the bass-

-that is, three notes, 5 r Maj3, plus another, b9 down an octave, placed beneath 'em-

-played as

x 3 4 4 4 x

-using the same note for the b9 as the root of our dimMaj7 chord, would be the same group of notes- same chord, different root/different name. crazy grin

Could come into play depending on the key and chord progression that our little specimen was playing in; key, progression, and function within a piece of music all ultimately determine the correct identification of any given chord.

You could play around with this, trying it out with each note as the root, and probably come up with some other chord names for this handful of notes; I've done enough of that for now. sleep tired freak shocked grin
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#2154423 - 01/17/10 06:37 AM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Think that would qualify as an altered chord, ya? it`s a step back in specificity but it could be CdimAlt7
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#2154453 - 01/17/10 08:22 AM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: skipclone 1]
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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"The Desired Dissonance of the Diminished Chord, Part II


By Greg Fishman

Last monthís article (part 1) was designed to familiarize you with the strong emotional sound of the diminished chord. This month, weíll go deeper into the technical aspects of the chord.

INTERVALICALLY SPEAKING

The intervallic structure of the diminished chord is fascinating to me. One of my favorite sounds in music is the interval of a major 7th. The diminished chord actually contains four major 7th intervals stacked on top of each other, ascending in minor thirds.

Letís examine the B dim7 chord. From the Root to the major 7th, (B to A#) the distance is 11 half steps, or a major 7th interval. Next, if you measure from the 3rd to the 9th (D to C#), thatís also a major 7th. The pattern continues throughout the chord: 5th to 11th (F to E), and 7th to 13th (Ab to G). Itís the repeated use of this major 7th interval that gives this chord its dissonant character. To get a deeper understanding of intervals within the diminished chord, measure the distance from the root to each note in the chord, going all the way up to the flatted 13th."
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#2154497 - 01/17/10 11:02 AM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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While most of those cited intervals aren't even occurring here, it is true that the intervals from r to 7, 3 to r, 5 to 3, and 7 to 5, are all varying 7th. intervals.

If you want to call that "stacked 7ths", sure, OK; but that might easily mis-imply a 7th on a 7th on a 7th in the way that one says that a triad or 7th-chord consists of "stacked 3rds".
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#2154505 - 01/17/10 11:45 AM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
Bill@Welcome Home Studios Offline
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"If you want to call that "stacked 7ths", sure, OK; ..."

That is the nice thing about standards... there are so many of them...
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#2154515 - 01/17/10 12:05 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
Phil W Offline
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Hmmmm tough one!
I would probably write dim (maj7)

A major 7th would naturally occur on a diminished scale/chord anyway and I have heard pianist chuck other tones into diminished chords to spice them up a little. Raising the bb7th of a diminished chord up a tone would come into that category.



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#2154651 - 01/17/10 07:48 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Phil W]
simpleman3441 Offline
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I've a had a few drinks, so if what I'm about to say doesn't makin sense I'm sorry. I'll review it later. So. Here goes...

I would call it a minor major seven flat five or a -Maj7b5.

The term stacked usually refers to stacked thirds which is what western harmony is based upon. Even when it comes to quartal harmony which is based on fourths it can be simplified to thirds. Saying stacked thirds would lead one to think (starting from c) C B Bb A Ab G etc. Moving up in consecutive Major sevenths and leading to essentially a descending chromatic scale.

As far as the quote from Greg Fishman goes, it confused me greatly at first. "Letís examine the B dim7 chord. From the Root to the major 7th, (B to A#) the distance is 11 half steps, or a major 7th interval." This just didn't make sense to me at all. There are two dim7 chords: the fully diminished and the half diminished. The fully diminished contains a diminished seventh (from B it'd be an Ab) and the half contains a minor seventh (from B an A).

Then I realized that he was talkin not about the diminished chord, but the diminished scale. This scale is made of alternating whole and half steps. In the case of this scale you can look at the extensions of the diminished chord in the way he speaks. The diminished chord occurs in multiple keys and (in my humble opinion) should not be looked at in this manner across the board. Although it's likely that the diminished scale would work over the diminished chord in most of those situations, I think that treating every diminished chord this way would make every situation sound the same and limit the possibilities available from this theoretically beautiful chord. Or maybe I'm just crazy and not profiscient enough with jazz! lol
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#2154655 - 01/17/10 08:00 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: simpleman3441]
simpleman3441 Offline
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Actually, I just remembered a lecture I had from my teacher about the minor major seventh flat five. I'm gonna have to look in my old notes when I'm home next. Let you know if I find anything. Have fun guys!
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#2154657 - 01/17/10 08:24 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: simpleman3441]
simpleman3441 Offline
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Oh, I just remembered. The common usage of the minor seventh flat five. It's an inversion of the dominant sharp ninth without the root. In this form, the use of the diminished scale is totally valid. I still don't think every diminished chord should be seen as a "stacked sevenths"... Personal taste I guess.
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#2154953 - 01/18/10 02:47 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: simpleman3441]
Phil W Offline
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Yes, C7#9 is C E G Bb Eb
E diminshed maj 7 is E G Bb Eb

they are pretty much the same.

Jazz pianists treat many dimished chords as 7b9 chords without the root. E7b9 and E7#9 has the same function.
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#2154988 - 01/18/10 05:02 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Phil W]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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So far, it looks like dimMaj7 is accurate and fairly common; a Google search for "dimMaj7 chord" turns up loads of results using that tag.

I found out that a 7b9 chord can also be viewed as a dimMaj7 chord, depending on which note is considered the root; for example, a B7b9 contains all of the notes found in a CdimMa7.

Make a B7/C slash-chord with C (the b9 of B) in the bass, ditch its 7th (A), and you've got our- d's- trouble making little CdimMaj7 chord smiling up at you.

Conversely, make a CdimMaj7 chord, add the 6th (A), and you've got a B7b9 chord.

Take any dimMaj7 chord, consider its Major 7th to be the root, and it turns into an addb9 chord. Add its 7th in for a 7b9.

Take any Major triad, add its flat 9th while considering that to be its new root, and you've got a dimMaj7 chord.

Don't forget that there are Major 7ths, minor 7ths (flat 7ths, same as a "regular" 7th as in a 7 chord)), and double-flat 7ths (as in most diminished 7th chords). All these different 7ths, let alone the minor/flatted 3rds and 5ths (and 9ths!) can really make this confusing, huh?!
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#2155441 - 01/19/10 09:54 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: d]
Larryz Online   content
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Originally Posted By: d
Is there a standard term for a dim. chord with a major 7th ?


for me, the answer is no, you have to make one up on your own for..1 b3 b5 6 7

----o---
---o----
---o----
---o----
--o-----
x-------

dim maj7

it's not a Minor seven/flat five: 1 b3 b5 b7 as the 7th is flatted
it's not a Minor/major Seven: 1 b3 5 7 as the 5th is not flatted

a diminished chord triad 1 b3 b5 is naked without the bb7 (or 6th)...
the m7-5 or the m(maj7)is about as close as you'll get to reality...and how many times are you really going to need this weird sounding accidental chord anyway? I guess if I heard you play it in a tune, you could change my mind...kind of like the Beatles intro chord for Hard Days Night, sounds wierd but great at the same time...







Edited by Larryz (01/19/10 09:56 PM)

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#2155699 - 01/20/10 02:49 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Thanks all!

FWIW, the voicing here, n context, is 1 b5 maj7 b3. That still sounds diminished to me although some have suggested it's like a 5-1-3 triad with a b9 in the bass but the context doesn't support that.
For those looking for an easy way to hear this chord, simply slide a standard D chord down a fret. laugh Gotta love that Beeheart style!

I have to disagree with you, Larry, about the requirement of a bb7.
That's a dim.7 chord but there's also a "half dim" chord, with an ordinary b7... which is what got me wondering about a term for this chord in the first place) but 1 b3 b5, while often called a "minor flat 5"is by definition a diminished chord.
The b5 is what does it, in my understanding...but, as I'm known for saying, the rules of music theory evolve to fit what's played, not to straitjacket what can be played.
As for the other names. see previous comment.

Now for Bill's citation of Greg Fishman.
First thanks for bringing that up; no one else I've asked about this brought that into the discussion at all.
I have to say, though, that while SimpleAntMan [ grin ] cleared up the (apparent) relationship of the concept to diminished scale form, I still wonder at what led GF to this, IMHO, rather roundabout concept.
I don't find maj.7ths dissonant (unless clubbed together Monk-style); certainly not as dissonant as b3rds. More to the point, since chords are usually built on 3rds, how'd he get to this "two steps forward/ one step back" maj.7 idea ?
What about the other diminished mode [1/2-whole steps], which lacks the specific intervals GF mentions, using instead, by his terms, stacked b7ths, which would seem to me more dissonant than stacks of maj.7ths.

Can you clear any of this up, please. Bill.
Or at least mention the source periodical.

[edit: Actually found GF site & will be looking at his "PT. 1" of this exposition...but always nice to catch someone else's interpretation, still, Bill.]




Edited by d (01/20/10 02:53 PM)
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#2155977 - 01/21/10 12:45 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: d]
Larryz Online   content
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Originally Posted By: d
Thanks all!

FWIW, the voicing here, n context, is 1 b5 maj7 b3. That still sounds diminished to me although some have suggested it's like a 5-1-3 triad with a b9 in the bass but the context doesn't support that.
For those looking for an easy way to hear this chord, simply slide a standard D chord down a fret. laugh Gotta love that Beeheart style!

I have to disagree with you, Larry, about the requirement of a bb7.
That's a dim.7 chord but there's also a "half dim" chord, with an ordinary b7... which is what got me wondering about a term for this chord in the first place) but 1 b3 b5, while often called a "minor flat 5"is by definition a diminished chord.
The b5 is what does it, in my understanding...but, as I'm known for saying, the rules of music theory evolve to fit what's played, not to straitjacket what can be played.
As for the other names. see previous comment.




It's OK to disagree...but you'll find what you're saying is already contained in my post...the "half diminished" single b7 chord you are referring to is the Minor Seven/Flat Five or 1 b3 b5 b7 written m7b5 and it's the 7th being flatted that causes the half diminished instead of the bb7 diminished chord... I agree that for the most part flatting the 5th is necessary for a "diminished" and/or a "half diminished chord" by definition...the reason I say that a diminished chord is naked without the bb7 (or 6th) is in common use it is a four note chord which contains the 1 b3 b5 bb7(or 6th), with the unusual characteristic of each note being the root tone and calling the chord, and repeating itself every 3 frets...a "diminished 7th chord" is often just called a "diminished chord" (as in Cdim)...the act of diminishing a chord or augmenting a chord by flatting or sharping the 5th (or 9th) is only part of calling the [sound] of the resulting chord, and the diminished 7 chord does not really contain a 7th (be it b7 or bb7) it really contains a 6th...so flat the 5 of your minor 6th chord and you have the diminished chord without ever using a 7th or b7...IMHO

The problem that comes in to play when you try to combine the two chords (ie. diminshed and maj7) is that the major7 does not use a b3 or a b5 and it wants to use the 7th instead of the bb7 (or 6th) so the two chords are trying to fight each other and you come up with a weird sounding chord...kind of like sliding that D down a half fret to a Db and playing all the open strings with it...IMHO

I'm just putting in my 2cents FWIW and not really disagreeing with you D...it can always be called a diminished major 7th if it helps you remember that you want a 1 b3 maj7 b5...

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#2156864 - 01/24/10 12:56 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Well, Larry, it's a "weird" chord alright (too put it mildly) but there's nothing that precludes using a maj.7 in any situation if it fits.
No argy-bargy intended but some of what you say (such as "The problem that comes in to play when you try to combine the two chords (ie. diminshed and maj7) is that the major7 does not use a b3 or a b5 and it wants to use the 7th instead of the bb7 (or 6th) so the two chords are trying to fight each other..." when there's only one chord here, not a combination of chords) reminds me of the things that were confusing to me as a student when people would apply terms for intervals & chords in a indistinct way (some people, for instance, insist on calling a b7 a "minor 7."

FWIW, to me, a dim 7th chord with a bb7th, does contain a 7th, not a 6th.
It's the enharmonic equivalent of a 6th but it is a 7th in function.
Calling that a 6th is common but a it's bit like terming a b5 as a #4 or an aug.5 a b6. It's the same pitch but it confuses the structure...which takes me back to this thing Bill posted about the derivation of these chords by Fishman, which I'd like to hear more comments sbout.


-----------------------------------------------------------
BTW, it's too late to edit my OP but I noticed that I mis-spelled a word.
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#2157293 - 01/25/10 03:47 PM Re: chord nomeclature question [Re: d]
Larryz Online   content
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Sorry D, in a diminished chord it really is the 6th note of the scale, not the "enharmonic equivalent" of a 6th...people refer to it as a bb7 for the "function" you are referring to and/or talking chord structure...it's also considered a 13th (as in 2=9, sus4=11, 6=13, #5=b13, b3=#9 and b5=#4 and #11)...you can throw any note into a recognized chord stucture as you are doing by adding a maj7 to a diminished chord and calling it a single chord and if it works for you and it helps you remember the new chord you're using, then it's great (if it sounds great)...and many times passing chords or chords with an out of structure note in the bass really make things come alive...

I agree that calling a b7 a minor 7 confuses the issue and it's almost the same as calling a b3 the minor 3rd...just got to clarify if you're talking about the note being used or the chord being used...we just don't refer to it as minor 3rd chord like we do the 6th, 7th, 9th, 7th b5, 11th and minor/major 7th...

my main point is that a diminished chord really isn't a 3 note chord and that it is naked without that 4th note...that's why your Cdim is also a Ebdim, Gbdim or an Adim...without that 4th note (ie. bb7, 6th or 13th note) this wouldn't happen...

Hope Bill or someone gets back to you on the "derivation of these Chords by Fishman"...and I appreciate you getting back to me and sharing your thoughts...

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