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#2131948 - 11/06/09 08:56 AM DSI Poly Evolver Update
b3keys Offline
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#2132111 - 11/07/09 06:12 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: b3keys]
frogmonkey Offline
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Loc: Vermont, USA
This makes me very happy. I didn't think it would happen so quickly. I think I'm going to buy the coversion kit.
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#2132133 - 11/07/09 07:59 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
DanS Offline
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Where does it mention the conversion kit?
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#2132134 - 11/07/09 08:02 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
mate_stubb Offline
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#2132155 - 11/07/09 10:28 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: mate_stubb]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Hmmmmmm...may need to get me one of those. I can't see doing it to s/n 00001 unit (that would compromise it's value, IMO), but I could totally see converting the one I use live. thu

dB
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#2132171 - 11/07/09 11:43 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Dave Bryce]
Markyboard Offline
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I'm also surprised that this came out so fast after the P8 PE. I just recently replaced all my encoder boards and now I have no problems except that they're still encoders evil. I'd much prefer pots where you do a lot less twisting to get where you want to go. I have no objection to sudden jumps when you switch patches and change a parameter. I believe there are one or two other synths that behave this way and yet people still manage to suffer through this abomination.

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#2132698 - 11/09/09 12:49 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Markyboard]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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I'm just glad that this means Dave Smith is committed to keeping the Poly Evolver around, as I might buy one eventually and they're hard to find used.

There was some scuttlebutt a year back that this keyboard was going to be discontinued. I think people drew too many conclusions from the cancellation of the rack edition.
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#2132723 - 11/09/09 01:31 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: mate_stubb]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate_stubb


Danké.
Hmm, $400?
That's pretty stiff for cosmetics.
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#2132728 - 11/09/09 01:56 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Cosmetics? It's about behaviour.
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#2132883 - 11/10/09 03:34 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Mark Schmieder]
DanS Offline
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Well, how about an unruly child that could have been corrected earlier on.
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#2133189 - 11/10/09 05:11 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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I still don't get your point.

But I haven't compared the new price vs. the old. Did the new price also go up, or is this a "free" feature for those buying new Poly Evolvers?

As for upgrading older ones, why is $400 a lot for a circuit board? You realize, I hope, that the original cost would have been higher had it been in there to start with. So you would have spent the $400, or some other extra amount, at initial purchase, vs. later on as a retrofit.
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#2133272 - 11/11/09 05:39 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Mark Schmieder]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
You realize, I hope, that the original cost would have been higher had it been in there to start with. So you would have spent the $400, or some other extra amount, at initial purchase, vs. later on as a retrofit.


Oh would it have been now? Is the price difference between regular detented pots that much more than the constant rotation pots on the original Poly?
Have you ever used a Poly in a live situation, where you change a patch by rotating the knob, and you over shoot the patch by 1 or 2 numbers, then set it correctly, then as you remove your fingers from the knob, it changes again to the next higher/lower program because the knob isn't quite in the exact position it should be?
It's not a lot of fun.
So for a board that I payed close to 3 grand for almost 4 years ago, and a retrofit that would cost me close to $500, yeah I find that an expensive kick in the nuts to correct bad component selection.
Your mileage will of course, vary.
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#2133438 - 11/11/09 01:14 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Um, it isn't about the pots per se, but the board design required to support them. Unless I'm missing something basic.
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#2133448 - 11/11/09 01:26 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Mark Schmieder]
frogmonkey Offline
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Dan, you should fix your encoders. Call DSI, and they will hook you up with Deoxit or another solution. I haven't used the Deoxit yet, but I did replace the center board, which has a lot of encoders on it. It is amazing what a difference it makes. It is so much better, that I'm not sure I need the pot conversion anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that the jumpy weirdness is not a feature of the encoders; it is a defect and it can be fixed. Easily. By the user.

But... I can't imagine wanting to use a knob to select a patch when there is a numerical keypad. The numeric keypad is the best patch selection method there is, IMO.


Edited by frogmonkey (11/11/09 01:29 PM)
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#2133491 - 11/11/09 03:37 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
DanS Offline
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Frog, the knobs have been like this since day 1, out of the box.
Isn't Deoxit a contact cleaner?
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#2133675 - 11/12/09 08:31 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
frogmonkey Offline
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I think a lot of the PEKs had screwy encoders out of the box, mine included. From what I hear, Deoxit solves the problem-- though there's no word on how it works in the long run. (yeah, it is a contact cleaner).

I was resigned to putting up with the encoder behavior, but lately it's been really getting on my nerves. I had to replace the center board to fix a tuning issue. They sent me the board for me to replace myself, which was impressively easy. No solder, just a few screws and ribbon cables. I send them the old board.

The encoders on the new board work perfectly, and it is such a relief. I'm waiting on my Deoxit to arrive for the rest of them.
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#2133677 - 11/12/09 08:31 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
denkom67 Offline
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Yes, Deoxit is a contact cleaner. My Poly Evolver initially worked great, but after about a year some of the encoders (including ones I used a lot for live performance) became too unpredictable to use. I contacted DSI and they sent me a small tube of the Deoxit, and the problem encoders have been working like a charm ever since.

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#2133687 - 11/12/09 09:20 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
DanS Offline
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Registered: 11/14/00
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Originally Posted By: frogmonkey
I had to replace the center board to fix a tuning issue. They sent me the board for me to replace myself, which was impressively easy. No solder, just a few screws and ribbon cables. I send them the old board.
The encoders on the new board work perfectly, and it is such a relief. I'm waiting on my Deoxit to arrive for the rest of them.


So I apparently have been dealing with faulty encoders all this time?
Who knew?
How does this Deoxit work? You open up the front panel and give all the encoders a good blast?
Does Kensington dust remover do the same thing?
Thanks.
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#2133704 - 11/12/09 09:59 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
zahush76 Offline
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Registered: 01/05/07
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Loc: israel, jerusalem
Originally Posted By: DanS
Have you ever used a Poly in a live situation, where you change a patch by rotating the knob, and you over shoot the patch by 1 or 2 numbers, then set it correctly, then as you remove your fingers from the knob, it changes again to the next higher/lower program because the knob isn't quite in the exact position it should be?


But isn't one of the features in the PEK is the numeric dial? That's the whole point. You can go from patch to patch using the numeric pad, and if you want to move to the very next patch you can always use the +\- . Right?

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#2133715 - 11/12/09 10:22 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
frogmonkey Offline
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Registered: 01/12/09
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Loc: Vermont, USA
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: frogmonkey
I had to replace the center board to fix a tuning issue. They sent me the board for me to replace myself, which was impressively easy. No solder, just a few screws and ribbon cables. I send them the old board.
The encoders on the new board work perfectly, and it is such a relief. I'm waiting on my Deoxit to arrive for the rest of them.


So I apparently have been dealing with faulty encoders all this time?
Who knew?
How does this Deoxit work? You open up the front panel and give all the encoders a good blast?
Does Kensington dust remover do the same thing?
Thanks.


Apparently it comes in a needle applicator. DSI will send it to you free or cheap. I haven't read the detailed instructions yet, but I think you remove the boards (which is easy) and put a drop of the stuff in each encoder.

There's an active thread about it at the Other Forum right now.
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#2133725 - 11/12/09 10:36 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
DanS Offline
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Danké.
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#2133798 - 11/12/09 01:00 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
Sparky2 Offline
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Posts: 113
Pardon my ignorance, but to which other forum are you referring? Thanks.
Mark
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#2133864 - 11/12/09 03:49 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Sparky2]
frogmonkey Offline
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Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 361
Loc: Vermont, USA
I'm talking about Harmony Central...
sorry to be so oblique-- for some reason the two forums seem to avoid mentioning the other by name.
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#2133868 - 11/12/09 03:57 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
DanS Offline
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I just read some of the posts over there, and it seems that some people had some real problems with their encoders.
Is DSI just sending this Oxi stuff out regardless of the severity of your encoders?
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#2134133 - 11/13/09 12:51 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: DanS]
frogmonkey Offline
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Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 361
Loc: Vermont, USA
I don't know-- all I did was tell them my encoders were jumpy and I heard that Deoxit was the answer and could they please send me some. And they did. I'm still waiting for delivery, though.

The instructions are here, for anyone interested:
http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/support/pek_maintenance.php

I have to say that in addition to loving this instrument despite its encoders, I'm really happy about the way they seem to handle repairs. Specifically: design the thing to be easily serviceable and send the part to the user. Here in VT, there is nobody to do warranty repairs on synths, so everything has to get shipped and it always takes forever in my unfortunate experience.
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#2134153 - 11/13/09 02:09 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: frogmonkey]
zahush76 Offline
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Registered: 01/05/07
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Loc: israel, jerusalem
And here's a note from Dave Smith himself on this issue - copied from the davesmithinstruments.com site:

Quote:
A Note From Dave Concerning Possible Encoder Issues
June 5, 2009—

As you probably know, DSI is a tiny company. We strive to produce instruments with unique personality that the big companies are not making; we believe that our instruments speak for themselves. We also pride ourselves with unmatched customer service; when there is a problem, we respond immediately and resolve the issue.

There has been an issue lately with some of the encoders we use; it appears that we received some bad parts from our supplier that were mixed in our shipments for a short period of time. These encoders in question have a shorter lifetime than their specification, causing problems with some our synths in the field. Please note that this does not affect all units; in the last few years we have shipped over 300,000 encoders on our products. Most of those work just fine. And, the encoders on the Evolver desktop, Poly Evolver Rack, and Mopho are from a different supplier, and have been very reliable with almost no failures in 6 ½ years of use.

Once discovered, we fixed the problem as quickly as possible with our supplier, so the number of instruments affected was minimized. For instruments in the field we are happy to fix any problems on a case-by-case basis. For most problem encoders, we have found that the addition of a contact cleaner/lubricant is all that is required. We send this product (Deoxit) free of charge on request.

Some encoders may not respond well enough to Deoxit, in which case we will replace the bad encoders with new ones. In extreme cases, we may just replace an entire circuit board with all new encoders. Again, depends on the individual situation. The bottom line is we support our products, and will not leave our customers in a bind.

Separately, as you also probably know, we have just started shipping a new version of the Prophet ’08 Keyboard, the Pot Edition. This is identical to the normal Prophet; the only difference is 37 of the encoders have been replaced by pots. As a background, I have always preferred encoders for control. Even back in the Prophet 5 days, I was always bothered by the issue of physical position of a pot versus programmed value of the parameter, since there is no perfect way of handling edits; after all, the Prophet 5 was the first instrument to deal with this issue!

Encoders solve this problem since you always edit consistently from the programmed value. So, I’ve used encoders exclusively on all DSI products. Over the years, we have received a number of requests for pots, and I’m finding that many customers are willing to put up with the pot editing limitations in exchange for direct, consistent, end-to-end control over a parameter. This is the area where pots perform better than encoders. Though all of our products have acceleration on the encoders, and with a little practice you can sweep controls fully, encoders are never quite as good as pots for this.

So, the perfect solution is to provide both versions of the instrument, which we do now for the Prophet ’08 keyboard. We of course will be watching the response closely before deciding whether to offer pot versions on other products. And, we offer a conversion kit for current P8 owners who want to switch to the pot edition. We are just trying to respond to our customers’ requests and provide the instruments that everyone wants!

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#2134215 - 11/13/09 08:24 PM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: zahush76]
mate_stubb Offline
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Dave is a truly classy guy.
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#2134311 - 11/14/09 09:51 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: mate_stubb]
zahush76 Offline
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Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 688
Loc: israel, jerusalem
So this dude came to me, and we were supposed to exchange synths. The deal was my Mono Evolver Keyboard plus 1000$ for his Poly evolver Keyboard.
I tested his synth, and some of the encoders didn't work properly. When i turned, for example, the sustain knob at normal speed - the values would stay the same or go up - instead of down. This happened with some of the other knobs. It would function properly only if i turned it very slow and gently.
I decided not to go for it, wait a little, save some more money or sell something - to get a new PEK - Pot edition.

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#2139002 - 12/01/09 09:44 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Dave Bryce]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
I could totally see converting the one I use live. thu

Done. smile



Wow...what a difference. Really...not just the look (which, I must say, I like much better), the instrument feels much better to me with the conversion kit and new knobs. The new encoder knob cap collars sit right up against the surface so there's no play at all, and the pots feel completely great - very solid, with more resistance than the encoder pots that are still on there (which are all detented now, and feel even better than the few detented encoders on the older unit - bonus). Not only is it much more comfortable to move around on IMO, but I'll finally be able to not feel uneasy putting the PEK in a gig bag. cool

Highly recommended. thu

dB
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#2139012 - 12/01/09 10:36 AM Re: DSI Poly Evolver Update [Re: Dave Bryce]
frogmonkey Offline
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Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 361
Loc: Vermont, USA
Wow! That's awesome, dB!

I just used the Deoxit a few days ago, and it is much improved. Some of the encoders seem to need another application, but most of the problems were solved. Still, even with the encoders working properly, it is difficult to do sweeps the way I want to.

'nuff said, I'm going for the pots!
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