Hi,

New poster here.

Last night I went to youtube and watched a whole load of overhead views of keyboard players, and I noticed an interesting thing.

Almost all players rotate their hands outward so the overhead view line down the forearm does not follow through the middle finger but instead through the thumb. This means the wrist is rotated outward in a way that to me would promote tendonitis or other issues.

I did notice this issue seemed to be worse for small-handed players or short-thumbed players, whereas large handed or long-thumbed players had better hand positioning.

I'm mainly a guitarist and not a very experienced keyboard player so I wanted to see how you all would comment on this.

With your forearms perpendicular to the keyboard your hands in a relaxed position point inward. Since the keys are also perpendicular to the keyboard you have to rotate your hands outward to get them in line with the keys. Your arm position and hand rotation also changes as you play notes away from your body's centre line. Most players compensate for this without much effort, by extending the arm for example.

Welcome to the forum, bolt!

It's a fact that the tendons work at their best when the portion which resides in the forearm is aligned with the portion in the hand itself. Little movements of the wrist and elbow will allow this. If one practices it while doing technique (for example, slow scales), it's not difficult to start using it in normal playing.
Of course, every different relationship between hand position and keyboard position will require a slightly different adjustement.
No tendonitis ever for me since I realized that.

Excellent advice, marino! I'll work on that.

Hello Bolt, welcome to this great & informative (& very often amusing!) forum.

I think there are at least two issues here.

1. The people making these videos may be moving their arms out of the way of the camera, so it's clearer

to the viewer what they are trying to demonstrate?


2. For good technique, the rule of thumb (geddit! ) is to keep everything in a straight line -

ie: forearms horizontal (or slightly above), and wrists straight..... so yes, ideally, your middle finger is in a

straight line, not 'cocked' at an angle.

Of course peoples physiques vary, so not everyone will be 'textbook', but as an example, for live work,

I have a 2-tier keyboard set-up... my 'piano' (Korg M50-88) is the lower one, and I sit to play this.

Above that I have my Nord Electro organ - and when I'm playing that I stand, so I have the correct 'angle' in my arm/wrist.

You will probably also notice that good players tend to 'widen' their elbows as they move up/down the keyboard.

This is so the relative angle of the wrist is still the same.


John.

By the way, this is one of videos that got me thinking about this, especially look at his right hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJErdCq-7ms

But many other overhead videos show the same tendancy, and I notice it on myself too. I guess it's because the thumb is shorter than the little finger.

It does seem to me that if you bring your elbows together more, in front of your body, that will help. But does anyone really play with elbows in front?

Thanks for the welcome, MonksDream.

I've taken a quick look at this video, and I have to say that his general hand positioning looks unnatural

(dare I say abnormal?) to me..... but if you pause it at 2min 25sec - then that does look like a 'proper' position.

.

It's very typical though especially when reaching for wider chords. Here's another one, check out the left hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWht3hrhBmQ

It sounds like everyone replying is agreeing it seems bad form and like Marino wrote, it would be better if the tendon line down the arm continued through the hand, which requires the little finger to play well back into the black keys and loses width across the keyboard.

But watch you own hands while playing - do you do it too?

I'm not a pianist, but as a guitarist/mandolinist, I sometimes veer from "correct" hand position when playing, especially onstage.
It still sounds good (most of the time, LOL) and I haven't injured my hands in any way. Of course, I don't practice 8 hours a day, either!

All I know is that on the few occasions I played a keyboard instrument near our esteemed moderator dB, he kept wacking my wrists upward and tsking at me. I assume that means I'm in no position to give advice on this matter.

I'm actually experiencing some pain in my right wrist over this, on the top of the bend between hand and forearm, especially toward the thumb side of the top of my right wrist. It builds up pretty quickly as I play.

Could any of you experienced keyboard players look down on your right hand as you play and tell me, from looking down from above, where the line along your forearm projects through your hand, in other words, which finger is aligned in with the forearm, as viewed from above?

Because, for me, it's more like my thumb aligns with the forearm.

Left hand does not seem to have the same issue.

Should I be positioning the end of my pinky toward the back of the keys more, well into the black keys?

Don't play with your thumb muscles - play with your thumb by dropping the arm/turning the wrist. Make sure you're not dropping or raising your wrists - look at marino's avatar to see how you should be holding your hands

If I was experiencing pain, and worrying about it this much, I'd think it's time to move beyond personal analysis. I'd pay for one lesson with a top piano teacher to observe hand positions and technique.

If your keyboard approach is OK, then you need to see a hand doctor to rule out a physical problem.

That too

Marino's avatar shows the hands from the side, but this is not what I'm asking about.

I'm asking about the angle of the hand to the forearm as looking down from above.

Just asking for a few of you to tell me what angle you see looking down on your right hand as you play.

Well, there's no universal answer to this. It depends on what you are playing and in what register of the keyboard. The concept is to keep the arm relaxed and comfortable with respect to the fingers. Some times one moves the forearm slightly just to avoid stiffness. There are too many factors involved to give a straight answer.

In the video, the cocking of the wrist looked necessary for the expansive chords he was playing. When playing things more like scales, his hand was always perpendicular to the keyboard (parallel to the keys), with his forearm angled as needed depending on where he was on the keyboard.

You simply have to cock your wrist right a bit to get a wide reach between thumb and pinky. Even when smaller reaches but over a 6th or 7th, if you don't want your pinky to be hitting the key fairly high up on the key, you have to cock your wrist a bit.

Regardless, I find that when I watch better players play, their wrists are cocked far less than mine are, and they're using finger independence more to avoid it. I'm convinced it's something you don't want to overdo, but shouldn't avoid like the plague, either. I'm sure I do it too much, and I avoid stress when practicing by interleaving with parts where I'm not so susceptible to my bad habit, or taking breaks. When I overdo it, it hurts, and I avoid doing what hurts.

Hey, you are really hitting on some key points here, thanks.

I tried sitting a little bit to the left and it seems to be helping, becasue it straightens out my right wrist and angles my left more. (Actually, what I did was hit the octave shift button by one octave)

Happy to help, but those are just my unschooled observations. As others mentioned above, it's a good idea to get someone qualified to watch you play and correct any mistakes. I should follow my own advice on that too!

bolt,

I'm a piano teacher and you are correct, it's ideal when the forearm in aligned with the middle finger. Off angle playimg can cause friction of the tendons. However when playing in the lower or upper ranges of the keyboard pianist tend to play "off angle" to be able to reach it. A possible solution is to tilt your upper body torso over and forward from the waist towards the outer range you are playing so that you don't have to twist the hand angle as much. In some cases you can also scoot over on the bench...

Sviatoslav Richter leans way over at 1:30 for the high notes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3azkJP_vkN8

Wow, a lively read on that etude. I saw your post last night and trawled through youtube watching more videos of Richter. Never heard Chopin played in such a savage manner. Love his playing.

As far as what you said about angle of the wrist though, I think you are talking about a slightly different thing. Playing in the high registers without leaning over would rotate the right wrist toward the thumb, but that is the opposite bend of what I'm talking about. My rotation is there all the time to some extent when just playing in the middle register.

I have sort of come to the conclusion this problem is partly down to hand size and hand geometry (relative thumb length etc). A large handed player will not have to rotate their hand toward the little finger as much. I also notice the problem is worse on players who do not curve their fingers right.

I agree with this - everyone's physical build differs in some way....

although good technique can be taught - arm length, hand size & shape, etc. can't be changed!!!

Also maybe repetive 'practice' is a factor. As a piano-tuner I have tuned hundreds of thousands of octaves over the years,

and though my hands aren't particulary large, my finger span is approx 8 1/2", so playing a 4-or-5 note octave chord

doesn't distort my wrist angle/ hand position at all.


I suppose there's no definitive answer to this.... it's what works for you .