This is kind of related to my recent keyboard stand post but is a sufficiently different tack to put on a separate thread, I think.

I've begun to work as an accompanist for a really great singer whose background is mostly in West End shows and we are doing a concert together in a couple of weeks' time.

So, for the first time in a long time, I've had no choice but to get down to some serious practice and start playing what's on a page rather than in my head, or perhaps more accurately under my fingers.

One of the songs he is doing with me is Stan' Up and Fight from Carmen Jones (Toreador song in Carmen), which has a pretty rigorous workout of an accompaniment including lines such as this one:



(The scrawl is my own fingering - any offers on better alternatives very welcome!)

To cut a long story short, I've been appalled at how much I've struggled to render this piece satisfactorily - it's tricksy and fast, but hardly Rachmaninov.

My answer has been to really get down to grinding away on it, but even with the familiarity it still felt like I was playing through thick porridge on the RD.

Last night, we had a band gig but I was also asked to play some solo piano on a grand in the bar at the beginning of the night. There were three grands in the hotel; a Yamaha and a Bluthner, both in nice shape, and a dog of an old Broadwood (yep, the one I had to play).

I was fooling around on these before people started to arrive and of course my fingers immediately went to the Carmen. I was amazed at how nimble my progress through it was on each of the pianos.

So - has the hard work started to pay off and my hand musculature is beginning to shape up again, or is there something about the action of the grands which just makes this sort of thing easier - faster key return than on DPs perhaps?

The whole experience has sort of raised the question of the long term viability of DPs as serious practice instruments. I have a very aged grand which lives at my father's as I just don't have the space for it here, and I can't go to his house every day and practice.

I'm thinking that maybe, eventually, I'm going to need to think about a really good upright. But that's some bucks and days off yet.

The whole experience has been pretty enlightening. I'd always taken as read that a well set-up and maintained acoustic was always going to top a DP in terms of expression possibilities but I'd never considered the action factor so much, especially as a GX owner.

Until I got rid of my old Steinway, I never even considered practicing on a DP..warming up on it, doing some things leading up to a DP gig, for sure, but for overall development and practice?? For me, its always been a "real" one. When I used to do a lot of tours, I would go to the music dept at whatever cities university and try to obtain a practice room w/a piano in it..sometimes it worked...

It's the action. A couple hundred years of development have perfected the piano action, and the lightweight simpler DP actions are only an approximation.

Actually the lowly Wurli has the closest action to a real piano.

I find it's a lot easier to play a real piano than any digital piano. But I think it's a product of the action as well as well as triggering various layers of piano samples....it's just not the real deal.

The convenience and reliabilty of a DP comes with a sacrifice.

Maybe it would help to adjust the velocity setting to get through practice/learning a new, tricky piece of music.

I'm perfectly comfortable with DP/rompler tradeoffs because I know technology has a long way to go to catch up with the real thing.

When I tried the GX I thought the action was quite thick compared to my upright.

(and of course there's the difference in action between uprights & grands)

For me, the true difference (as far as action is concerned) is the density of real wooden keys versus hollow plastic keys.

Aidan, your RD has that great Ivory Feel, but I believe it needs to go a step further.

It's not just the weight of the hammer. When you strike a wooden key on a good piano, there's just a greater sense of control, IMO.

BTW, Aidan that is a nasty lick to deal with, but like you said, it ain't Rachmaninoff. I'm not in front of my piano right now to test out that fingering, but, fingerings I always found to be a very personal thing. Either way, if you're having trouble nailing it, I would suggest what may sound obvious, but that's slow practice. And I mean REAL SLOW practice. Try it at like a third of the tempo, repeated about 50 times. Inch your way back up to tempo, and it should definitely be more natural for you.

Actually the lowly Wurli has the closest action to a real piano.

... and why is that?

Yes, the action on a good grand makes that sort of playing much easier. I don't know of many DPs with a repetition lever for starters.

Another big difference is responsiveness. Compared to a decent AP the responsiveness of a DP is limited, not only in range but in resolution as well. It stands to reason that you will get to a point where subtleties of technique can't be practiced on a DP because the instrument simply can't respond to them.

The only digital I've played that comes close to giving you the control that you can take for granted on a decent AP is the V-Piano. I played with one for about 45 minutes at a local store recently. It's a very good sounding DP, however AFAIC the big win on the VP is the connection between the touch and the piano sound. I was very pleasantly surprised by it. It's no Steinway but it's way closer than any other DP I've ever played.

That said, for mere mortals like me the DP is still a wonderfully useful practice tool. However, every time I play a good AP I wish I had one at home to study on.

Hey Aidan.

I was about to post a beautiful Finale'd version of that line with a better fingering, then I tried yours again and I like it better! Nice work and good luck.

Because the Wurlitzer has basswood keys with cloth bushings that sit on cloth center rail punchings and bottom out on cloth front rail punchings. It has maple action parts and flanges with steel center pins and cloth bushings. It has felt hammers and dampers. It has a jack with adjustable letoff and backchecks to stop hammer motion after the strike. It's a very clever design that incorporates all the important elements of an upright piano action with fewer parts and fewer moving parts. The action can be maintained, regulated and repaired with the same tools and techniques used on a real piano.

For all its similarities, it's way to small, light and dainty to feel much like a real piano. And even if it were not, it's still got no repetition or aftertouch, so it wouldn't give the kind of response Aidan is looking for.

Thanks for your input guys. The Clavinova in the house is beginning to show serious signs of age, so it may be that I look for a nice upright in a year or so to replace that, perhaps a Yamaha with the silent option.

For now, I've come to the conclusion that the best I can do is make sure the playing surface of the RD is as best supported as possible - hence the Quicklok WS-550 thread elsewhere - and build more practice time into my days.

I have the same problem of keys not returning fast enough. As bad as it sounds, I set my response on the S90ES to very light.... much lighter than a real piano. I have to consciously keep from pounding the listener senseless ... but it seems to give me a little advantage in speed if I peck like a dainty classical bird. Not much though.

Cool info about the wurli.

Closest to an upright piano, but frankly, I don't think that practicing on an upright is particularly worthwhile, unless you're playing styles of music that are suitable for upright. (And many good ones are; a lot of Fats Waller was on upright, but heck, he was such a slouch.)

And add FAST practice too, playing faster than tempo.

Both slow and fast are important, and it's important to mix them up.

Slow because, you have to play it correctly more often than wrong.
Fast because it forces more efficient fingering. No point in spending countless hours practicing muscle movements that couldn't possibly be played at tempo.

Take it from me, who plays worse than any of you. But I got this advice from folks who play terrificly, and I find it works.

I believe that aftertouch on a grand piano is a myth. I've never seen a physical explanation, nor any successful double-blind test. Escapements are designed to do the exact opposite: to make sure that what the finger does after the hammer is in free flight has no effect. (Note: there might be an exception regarding releasing the damper -- is that what you're talking about?)

Given your knowledge of piano action, maybe you could disabuse me.

That's probably because it's so hard to understand and explain that even in a room full of very good piano technicians, you'll have a hard time getting a lot of agreement on exactly what it is and what it ought to be, except that it has little to do with MIDI channel pressure and key pressure. Aftertouch isn't a myth, it just misunderstood.

Some say aftertouch begins with escapement. Others say it's everything that occurs in the action after escapement, after the hammer strike, beginning about when the key bottoms out and the hammer tail catches the backcheck. Others argue that it begins when the backcheck releases the hammer tail. It's the result of a combination of regulation adjustments, primarily backcheck (from how low does the repetition lever need to lift the hammer), rep spring (with how much force) and drop screw (how far up). Back way off on the drop screw so you get too much hammer rise, and you can drive the hammers into the strings using the same sort of pressure you'd use to play MIDI key pressure. Playing the hammer rise for subtle partial damping isn't something a lot of folks do, but it's doable on a well regulated grand with a little extra hammer rise and it's a check used in action regulation to make sure you haven't got too much hammer rise.

The audible damping effect that's possible playing the hammer rise isn't what's important about aftertouch. What's important is having the right amount of key travel after escapement and the right relationship between the backcheck, rep spring and drop screw adjustments so that you get good repetition.

Hit a chord and release slowly. If you can feel the backchecks let go, you have aftertouch.

For those of us who live in small houses, a grand piano isn't an option. Even an upright may be a tight, tight fit, depending on the floor plan.

I had one of those wurli's..if I remember correctly, it was a bit clunky, but cool...

I also used to have a mini piano...does anyone remember those awhile back, someone was building small apartment size piano's??...what the heck was the name..Diapason??? Im not sure, and I havent seen any around for quite awhile...I sold it when I was never around to use it, but it was a pretty good little box..

Well, it's almost there - though I shall play these run-ups in my dreams for the next six months.

I altered the fingering of the illustration to always use my fourth finger at the top of each climb as alternating with my pinkie was too confusing and I was finding it almost impossible to mobilise my fingers fast enough.

Two further things:

* I did as suggested and altered my GX's response to a lighter touch (now on "Medium -8" for fellow GX-ers out there) and it has made quite a difference, not only in helping to move the fingers quicker but also to the tone. I know the Expressive Grand wasn't to everyone's liking when it came out but I really do suggest you revisit it while adjusting the touch - it's now firmly my favourite of all the three major piano samples on the GX.

* We're going away this weekend and I'll have no access to a piano for three days. Are there any "away from the keyboard" hand exercises I can do to ameliorate its absence?

Thanks for the info, wmp. I'm still confused, but that's nothing new!

Absolutely.

Relax, close your eyes, and visualize your hands making the movements. Do your damndest to make your visualization as complete and accurate as possible. Just as with normal practice, start out very slowly and deliberately, and then increase your speed.

As you visualize, imagine your hands making the movements (without actually moving your hands) -- so it's not just visual, but almost tactile in your imagination.

Jeff's recommended exercise sounds good.

Once you finish that, ask your wife to lay on her tummy. Get to either side.

Pretend that her back is a dual manual organ. Be gentle. I think you will be fine.