Hello,
as some of you know, I have a bass for sale.
I have a buyer interested who lives in Belgium and he says he'd have to pay 21% VAT tax if he buys it from me.

Can this be true? It's a used instrument and purchased from a private party.

Hey J, as discussed, the applied tax rate is indeed 21% in Belgium.

Oi! 21% on a used item by private sale! Brutal and I thought we got hosed in Canada. 5% GST + duties here are cheaper then 21% I think.

I think it means that he'd be hit with the tax by Customs when the bass hits his country.

I'm a little surprised that VAT would hit a private sale, but not too surprised.

A VAT is a very pervasive tax, and very little in the way of trade in raw materials or finished goods escapes its reach.

When I was in Germany, it added 17-19% to the cost of an item, I didn't realize that Belgium's was 21%.

BTW, some people in the US Government think the US should have a national VAT, in addition to the state sales tax. IT'll start out at only 1-2%, but as a need for revebues increases, so will the VAT.

Something I saw when I was in Europe was a lot of bartering, black marketing.

There would be an import duty unless it was marked gift or it was somebody bringing/shipping home an instrument they already owned.

as above, send him the item marked as a gift and he will not have to pay VAT if that's not the case he will indeed have to pay 21% on whatever value you declared when shipping out.

my 2 cents

I'm not really in a position to comment. Davo, Phil and Alex have imported things to the UK. UK import duty is different. The UK customs can open items and if they think you have not declared properly and they feel duty is due you will have to pay it when to item arrives. I think in extreme cases they can confiscate the item, but what they'd want with a Blue Bass is anyone's guess The duty is different on differnet items.

VAT is only applicable to certain goods and services in the UK. It's Value Added Tax, so payable on anything that is considered a luxury or has added value.

Belguim is different, many of their 'European' rules are different. A quick Google will tell you this. I would assume 'the seller' has checked this fully to try to pay as little as possible.

Yep, we have to pay import duty and 17.5% VAT on imports and VAT on the shipping cost! Still works out cheaper for us. And with all these taxes we get have ............(nope won't go there!)

Its funny that we pay VAT on shipping but not on postage.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that there was bartering in Europe long before there was a "black market."

21% it is

22% VAT here in Finland, otherwise the same deal (import duty ~3,5%). Still I have imported a bass and a guitar from the States (thanks Maury) and saved a lot of coin compared to local prices.

Even if you label the shipment as a gift the recipient still has a good chance of having to pay taxes and duty.

It is really important to have clear documentation of what everything in the shipment cost. A Pro Forma was required in my case.

The usual way of trying to avoid taxes is to use a faux value for the shipment but there are issues with insurance and something called the law with such a method.

25% here in Norway. And if someone sends a gift, it can't be over 1,000 NOK (171 USD), otherwise you have to pay other taxes. We get steamed!

Bingo! Take a stroll down to your local dollar store (which doesn't have anything for a dollar any more) and buy some wrapping paper for your long lost brother's birthday present.

What does VAT stand for?

VAT Tax

Pernax!!! Long time, no read! Welcome back! I'm assuming you're lurking more, posting less these days.



Peace.
--SW

Sure there was, but it became very noticeable in the '90's that bartering was being used as a way to get a good or service in order to avoid the VAT. Who wants to pay on average, 20% more for a good or service, to the government?

Now, some people will tell you that the consumer that everyone is not having this tax imposed on sales several times asa good goes from raw material to finished product, but that is not true, either. As always, the cost gets passed dwon to the end consumer as cost, the consumer also pays a VAT on top of that.

As for black-marketing, I know of folks who paid their rent with cigaretttes and whiskey bought from non-EU countries. OF course the smugglers ran the risk of heavy fines.

Also, more than a few folks in Europe work "under the table", and cash-only, especialy at second jobs to avoid the higher taxes they would pay on a second income. I'll bet more than a few musicians on this forum would back that up.

There are a lot of what are called "cash" businesses. These still have to show accounts so a certain amount of money has to go through the books or the Inland Revenue will smell a rat.

I know people who have not kept the proper records for their cash businesses and the IR have made them sell their houses because they can't prove that they havn't earned what the IR thinks that they have earned.

Semi-Pro musicians, like myself should keep reciepts for everything we buy and sell as the pubs and clubs we play in and who pay us have to provide accounts to the inland revenue and we could be caught that way. This would include all sorts of things including equipment, fuel and practices. Generally it is very easy to show a loss this way and we can usually demonstrate to the Inland Revenue that it is a hobby that makes a loss.

In the UK a bigger problem is that there are a lot of people on benefits who work for cash. So not only are they not paying TAX but they are also recieving money from the government for not working.

So things aren't that different.

DING!

FYI, I bought a Roland electronic drum kit in the US, and mailed it over to Paris (I wanted to talk it over in english with a salesman) - with the post it was the same price as if I had bought here. Also, a Roland Bass Micro Cube is the same here in euro as it is in dollars. Cost of living here isn't hugely distorted by VAT or anything.

Sales tax back in Chicago is over 10 percent, and it's not like you get the same return on your tax investment: here there's 4x as long unemployment benefits, an average of 7 weeks paid vacation, a preponderance of salaried instead of hourly wage jobs, free health care, a top university tuition of about 2,000 euro, safe streets, no third-world cities like Gary, Newark, Flint, Detroit, Oakland, etc.

Regardless, France's CNN just did a 2.5 minute live piece on Motorhead's concert tonight during Iron Fist, which really made me wish I had went. That must be worth at least 17%.

You make it sound sooooo inviting............

Really.

It's definitely not too shabby.

But for the music scene the US and the UK are way better.

What's up Doc!?!

Yeah, your assumption is right on the money, life is keeping me quite busy these days so quality time on the 'net is somewhat limited. I might make a little update on what I've been cooking lately, got some cool stuff to share...

-P

Pernax,

Good to see you around here.

I was listening to Fool's Paradise just the other day and thinking of you...

Thanks for the reply, 'nax.

Look forward to the update.

Peace.
--SW