Despite the fact that I'm a lifelong practicing Catholic, my Mom thinks I need to do more. (OK, we are all called to the ministry in some sense, but...)

So she's been bugging me to join the choir at our church, not as a singer- really, my strength (a good voice with a 4 1/2 octave range, but I don't want to sing for a variety of reasons, including year-round allergies that make my voice cut out unexpectedly)- but as a guitarist.

I haven't said yes as yet because personally, its not something I'd do, but after 3 years of bugging me, perhaps my resistance is eroding.

However, since our choir's musical director is a multi-instrumentalist/vocalist Christain recording artist who usually sings & plays guitars (who recorded with Andy Timmons, for goodness sakes!), along with other instrumentalists- a professional pianist, a former professional guitarist turned pro photographer, and a talented bass player- I'd need to do something a bit different to fit in the mix while still contributing something meaningful to the aural landscape.

My solution? A 12-string. I figure that unique, chiming sound would add a little sparkle to the sound of the band- especially in a nice, big church full of wood, metal, tile and stone- without standing out too much.

Since I don't currently own a 12-string, this serves as both a goal and a way to put off a final decision. Its a stall that will give me the time to decide whether I have the skill, confidence and really, the desire to do this.

For this, I think either an acoustic-electric or a hollowbody/semihollowbody electric would be best.

The 12's I've looked at on the internet include:

Phantom Teardrop 12
http://www.phantomguitars.com/teardrop.html

Ovation Legend 12 or Standard Elite 12
http://www.ovationguitars.com/?fa=detail&mid=2295
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Ovation-Stan...143-i1435820.gc

Carvin Thinline AE185-12, Thinline AC275-12, Solidbody DC127-12, or C980T12
http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/guitars/index.php?model=ae185-12
http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/guitars/index.php?model=ac275-12
http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/guitars/index.php?model=dc127-12
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=C980T12&cid=75

I could even get a custom Jon Kammerer- a luthier from whom I've bought other guitars.
http://jonkammererguitars.com/jkghtml_005.htm

I've also been able to look at a few in person:

A used Alvarez
http://www.musicgoround.com/search.aspx?q=12-string+guitar&cid=8&scid=0&l=0&sid=40121&z=&d=25&min=&max=&c=10&ob=6

A used Breedlove
http://www.dallasusedguitar.com/servlet/the-326/Breedlove-Atlas-C250-fdsh-SM-dsh-12-Acoustic/Detail

A new Breedlove (yes, the same as the used one)
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Breedlove-At...512-i1426742.gc

A new Seagull Coastline Cedar 12
http://www.seagullguitars.com/productcoastcedar12.htm

and a few others besides...

Obviously, I'm all over the place on this.

Ideally, I'd like to keep the price between $450-$2000. I'm not averse to buying via the Internet from a reputable maker. I'm not averse to buying a good used instrument.

And I'm not in any hurry, either- I've tried out enough of them to know I'd need some extra practice time to feel comfy with one.

So...anybody have some good ideas or advice?

all i have to say is that if you dont feel like you should join the choir you shouldnt, you cant save yourself by doing works, and by spending money on eratlhy items to "save" yourself dont make much sense, you have to trust in GOd and if He calls you to the field of music then go but spending money on a guitar so you please people ad you "work" your sins off your just wasting money

All excellent points, but as I'm sure you know, sometimes God calls on us to do things that aren't that pleasant.

And sometimes, he does so via "mysterious ways", including- but not limited to- nagging moms! (Remember the Wedding at Cana?)

After all, aren't we all supposed to use the talents He gave us to further the greater good?

If so, I can't tell you how many times I've been told I was a talented musician (usually due to my vocals), but I've never used whatever talent people perceive in me for Him (other than by singing in the congregation...itself unusual among us Catholics).

Heck, for all I know, I'll get shot down by the choir-leader and asked NOT to play guitar, and I'll be inspired to find another outlet- His real plan.

So, on a certain level, I view this as a test.

I have to presume these reissues are much better than the original Voxes they're modeled on. I recently had occasion to play a Vox Phantom XII at a studio in London & I have to say, it was a real piece of s#!t. Cool looking, but utter crap.
How about a Rickenbacker 360/12?

Scott Fraser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZsBL4d1Eus

5 octaves. beat that.


in all seriousness, i agree with the other dude. Dont do something unless your heart is in it. God doesn't care about leftovers, He cares about your first fruits-- about your heart.

Dude, if your conscience is telling you to do it, do it, and don't worry about what anybody else says.

I'd probably lean towards an electric semi-hollow, but that's a matter of taste. Since he's such an accomplished musician, I suggest that you talk with the choir director and ask him how he'd feel about a 12 string in the band(and what kind he'd prefer to hear, acoustic or electric) before you go and buy either one.

Then I'd go buy the used Breedlove AND a Rickenbacker 360/12 because I'm a wild-spending idiot with more GAS than sense.

BY the way, the re-issue Phantom 12's, not made by Vox, are pretty decent guitars. But the old Voxes are crap, Scot's right about those.

None of the Carvin links work for me - is that because I'm not not in the US? Annoying.

To go with the Phantom, look at the Burns Club Double Six. Mine:



G.

Takamine makes some nice 12's in the $700 range, a buddy of mine has 3 of them and they all play easy and sound great...the on- board tuner is really nice too!!! If things don't work out (ie the choir master dumps you) you will not have spent a lot of money and will have a nice campfire and/or electric ability to back up that 4 octave voice of yours...don't worry about what God has to say as he has already spoken...(speaks all the time, even when you don't know it)...

Personally, I think maybe ya aughtta tell yer Mom that you're converting to Judaism and that they'll letcha play loud overdriven electric at Temple.

If you're going to get one of the guitars that you listed above, I'd think that the thinline Carvin AE185-12 would very nicely suit the task at hand, as well as being versatile and enjoyable for other uses outside that. I spent some time on a six-string version of that one on two different occasions; great, easy playing action, and nice tones, particularly the amplified-acoustic sound.



Naaa, same problem here; incorrect URLs, changes on the 'site, or something.

Here ya go:

Thinline AE185-12

Thinline AC275-12

Solidbody DC127-12

C980T12

1) A last word on the whole "Why?" thing...

As it says in James 2:20 "...faith without works is dead."

That doesn't mean that you can save yourself with works, but rather that without works, your faith only affects you. If you act upon and consistently with your faith, you can help affect others.

And I'm not trying to save myself by playing guitar in the choir, I'm considering playing the guitar in the choir because it may be what I'm being asked to do...possibly as a pathway to new friendships and greater responsibility within the church. Just because the demand came from my Mom and not a burning bush doesn't mean the source isn't the same. But I won't know until I actively explore the question.

Faith is something I think I have. This may be a way for me to prove it and thus, give back to my community (in ways beyond what I already do).

2) As for the guitars themselves...

Yeah...I got a look at some Vox 6 strings at a recent guitar show and wasn't impressed, but I hear the Phantoms are pretty nice. Plus, truth be known, if I don't like the pickups in a new guitar, I'm more likely to change them out than those in an antique.


Ha!

Actually, our Teen service rocks pretty hard, but that band is pretty large, pretty tight, and pretty young- no room for me, I think.

The regular service is choir vocals with 2 acoustic/electrics, an electric bass, and a phenomenal jazz pianist on a Steinway. Plus, I'm buds with most of the musicians, and I'm probably a better fit.

I never even plugged the Vox Phantom XII in to hear its pickups. It was the neck & general playability that felt cheap & crummy. I'm sure the reissues are pretty decent. People seem to know how to make guitars now, as opposed to the mid 1960's in Italy.

Scott Fraser

I've owned a LOT of 12 strings in my life.... there are the last three that I bought:



Don't know many of the brands that you list, but the original Voxes were junk; the Seagulls? a good friend owned the 6 and the 12, both over-rotated. I'd be prone to buying an Ovation for several practical reasons. I'd be just as unlikely to buy the Breedlove... practical reasons, nothing to do with sound or playability. I've never played the Carvin 12 strings, but Carvin makes a yeoman instrument and I'd feel that it would be a trustworthy purchase. The Burns/Baldin/Ampeg would probably be expensive in the states. Not a particularly amazing guitar, but really a load of fun. (Translation: I'd like to have one.)

12 strings are usually cheap once used, and expensive when new.

OK- a 12 like you're already thinkin' would be a good direction here, within that context;

and a thinline with magnetic pickups, like that Carvin AE185-12, would contrast and yet blend nicely with the two acoustic-electrics;

and maybe a 12-string tuned to Open-G (D - G - D - G - B - D, lo-to-hi) would work particularly well in that setting; between the 12's high-G octave in the 3rd course and the Open-G tuning, your chord voicings would really differ from the other instruments and blend in a nice way (for but one example, Genesis often layered guitar tracks mixing standard and open/alternate tuned axes).

Throw a capo up high and do quasi mandolin. (Or, lurch about playing harmonic "chimes" while bellowing about "the bells, THE BELLS!", as Quasimando... )

You might want look into Taylor 12-strings
I have a Taylor 855CE. IMHO, it would do the trick in your church ensemble.

http://www.prsguitars.com/custom2212/index.html heres a really nice guitar thats a 12er

That's an intriguing statement. Care to explain?



I've yet to meet someone who owned a Carvin product that didn't at least like it if not love it.

I sent them an inquiry about the specs of some of their 12s, but have yet to hear back from them.




Nice as they are- and no mistake, they're both nice!- those are a bit outside of my price.

I know, I know...I looked at a couple of others that were in that same range, but realistically, those are dreams for a later date!

"That's an intriguing statement. Care to explain?"


You are not buying a 12 string to be the most amazing 12 string on the planet (which is the driver for most of us when we make a guitar purchase....) You are not buying it to make fantastic studio recordings. You are buying a tool to do a particular job in a particular situation. You've also stated that the cost of this tool needs to be considered. For my money, that takes Taylor, Breedlove, Collings, Santa Cruz, etc off the table. That, to me, says: "buy an instrument which requires minimal upkeep, that is smaller, lighter, and perhaps won't crush my spirit if something should happen to it. An easily replaceable tool that will do a good job." Ergo, Ovation, or a thinline Carvin. Probably the best use of your dollar. Maybe Epiphone, but I have never played a modern Epi 12 string. And with the Ovation, if the big flood comes, you can use it as a paddle. (!)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Guild 12-strings so far. When I think of acoustic 12's that's the first guitar that pops into my head. Besides having great tone, they're sturdy as all get out and can handle the rigors of gigging (and children!) easily.

_______________

I have the 6 string version of this, & it is a superbly made instrument. Great neck, perfect finish, it's all good. They make a fine guitar. Haven't tried the 12 string version.

Scott Fraser

I Love Guild 12 strings, but I haven't played one in 30 years. What has Fender done to the line?

They might have moved all manufacturing offshore. I haven't seen a US made Guild in a number of years, & the Asian Guilds I've picked up have been thoroughly unimpressive. I believe the Westerly, R.I. factory is history. They have discontinued many if not all the Guild electrics, the wonderful archtops, the fabulous Bluesbird, all seem to be collector's items now. Sad.

Scott Fraser

The higher-end Guilds, made in Hartford Connecticut now, still sound great and the build quality is on a par with the old ones. Not quite as heavily built maybe but still tanks. The F512 is a cannon! They are a bit pricey though.

The imported GAD line isn't bad, but not as inspiring as the top of the line boxes. I'd have no qualms about buying one as a gigging guitar. Decent tone, good playability and build quality.

Yew know yew want wunna dese...

I shore dew!

AH!

Actually, the Breedloves I found were under $1K so price isn't the issue with them in particular. The new one was, as I recall, around $900, and the used one was either $599 or $630...depending on whether you looked at it in person or online (haven't figured out why its pricier online yet). They have Sitka spruce tops and mahogany laminate back & sides.

However, do they require a bit of extra TLC of which I'm not aware? That could indeed be a deciding factor.

As for Ovations- I've owned one for more than 15 years (Cadillac Green w/deep bowl), so they're a known quantity. With that synthetic back, I could probably use it as a flotation device as well as a paddle!;)

I have a Carvin C980T12. Outstanding guitar for the money. Not quite as nice as the Guild I had my eye on but it was $2700 less expensive. For that difference, it is much, much nicer!

Seriously, I'm very happy with it and would be happy to answer any questions.

FWIW, I was corresponding with a Fender rep the other day and was told that the Tacoma brand and all of its lines are being "re-evaluated"- possibly for production at that same Hartford location.

" Breedloves I found were under $1K ..."

A bottom of the line with the Breedlove name (likely made off-shore anyway in the same plant as Epi, Samick, etc...but I don't know this...), verses a middle ground or top of the line from someone else? Your choice.

But my main objection to the solid wood large body hollow body instrument has mostly to do with construction verses care. The Ovation or Carvin thin line will be a lot less prone to issues from humidity than any large body hollow body instrument, whomever makes it. These other instruments are more 'throw and go', where a large body hollow body instrument needs a humidifier ; and both the Ovation and the Carvin are easier to play than a traditional large body hollow body 12 string instrument, having closer to electric profile necks.

I play guitar in a church band, and have been thinking about getting a 12 string to play on certain tunes there. I love the sound of the instrument.
Might be kind of overkill for the situation, though. What the hell, I'll probably do it anyway, because I want to hear the sounds, whether anyone else cares or not!
Thanks for all the tips, guys!
PS I'd also like to get a mandocello and tune it with octave strings. I wish I had an endless supply of money to get all the toys I want, and endless time to play with them!

ooh...wait... I thought you said "for Lurch..."

Good point. I know some makers list the origins of particular lines in their catalogs, perhaps Breedlove does this- I'll have to take a look.


Well, I'm unlikely to be traveling far with the guitar, so once it acclimates to the North Central Texas climate, it will be in a fairly stable environment. (As opposed to our music director who just plunked down a grand or so for a "beater" to take overseas.)

That the thinlines may have more of an electric profile neck is also a factor. As yet, I've not been able to put in any serious time trying out the 12s in my locale- just a few minutes each, due to RW interruptions- but I did note that the 12s were more akin to my classical in neck dimensions.

A little more ease of use (due to a slimmer neck profile) may help me fit in with the more practiced musicians.

Thanks for that!

for what it's worth, I play a Danelectro 12 string (90's model) through a Janglebox and never fail to have guitarists in the crowd come up to ask how I made a Dano sound like McGuinn's Ric.

Jerry Jones makes a better Danelectro...

I've also heard good things about the Eastwood and Italia 12 strings...

Acoustics, I dream of having a Guild someday. I have beat up Yamaha. I've played old Alvarez 12 strings that were wonderful guitars, but I don't come across them ever.

I've seen a few good reviews of the Janglebox. How much do they run again?


Well, there is this one at my local Music Go Round (see the top of the page):
http://www.musicgoround.com/search.aspx?q=12-string+guitar&cid=8&scid=0&sid=0&z=&d=10&min=&max=&c=10&ob=6

I think I ordered my original Janglebox right before they had to raise the price... they're maybe $280 for the new JB2, but it can function as a compressor, treble boost or clean boost... or all three at once... people complained that the originals were "one trick ponies," but I've had fun coming up with lots of stuff to use it for... including on an acoustic guitar for flat picked or finger picked passages in a song with a lot of strumming otherwise. Elliot Easton apparently uses it as his boost for solos or something driving Marshall JCM 2000 stacks. We've plugged a lap steel and a mandolin into it with cool results.

Go play that Alvarez, it might be great... I haven't seen one in a while but I guess the price has appreciated.

Interesting- is there a Janglebox demo floating around out there?

As for the Alvarez...yeah, I'll give it a try. My only personal experience with the company was the first guitar I ever owned. It was a cheapie- I played it hard for a few years, and when I took it in for an issue that had developed, the tech (at Charlie's of D/FW) told me it would be cheaper to replace than repair. Enter, my Ovation.

Re: the sub-$1000 Breedloves:

From their catalog, the Atlas series (of which these 12s are a member) are



etc.

I didn't realize until just recently that my Carvin links in the first post were bad- they're fixed now.

"so once it acclimates to the North Central Texas climate, it will be in a fairly stable environment. "

It is not going to acclimate. You either have to have a humidifier or you don't. If the instrument dries out, you'll have frets popping, neck warpage, and possibly bridge rotation (at which point you can throw the guitar away.) I had frets popping on my Santa Cruz when I left it in a dry environment, thankfully I caught it and got it to the luthier before too much damage had been done.

Which brings up another point..... remember when guitars were not as finicky as they are today? Seems the cheapest ones are the most hardy.

Well, I haven't had any humidity-related problems with my A/E Washburn thinline bass, my other guitars (including a Yamaha classical guitar and a couple of hollowbodies), or my 32 year old cello, so it may not be much of an issue around here.

(Nor did my last cello teacher, and his instrument was 400+ years old...)

Of course, I have no idea as to whether cellos and guitars have comparable vulnerabilities to the climate.

Our humidity varies between 33%-83%, with an average of 58%.

I really, really want to try out a Jangle Box, myself! One of the compressor pedals that seem interesting to me... And if Roger McGuinn uses and endorses it, it's gotta be good!

"Of course, I have no idea as to whether cellos and guitars have comparable vulnerabilities to the climate."

They should, so if one is safe, the other should be, too. The average of 58% is very nice, but once things drop below 40%, I'd be putting in a hmidistat or something similar. (My own cheap answer was to drill some 1/8" holes in a couple of film can lids, and cut a small piece of sponge to fit inside each film can. Keep it damp, not wet, and leave one or two and the instrument in the case when the humdity is low.)

Here, in the winter the humidity can drop below 11%. I had whole house humidification put into the studio and both houses.

I cut my musical teeth too in a Catholic church choir. It is surprising how egotistical (I sadly have to admit I am guilty here as well) everything can be even in a situation where you are really just supposed to be leading people in song.

So instead of trying to stand out, think more about blending in. Church choir isn't the best place to try and be unique and stand out. My experience in ten years in the choir really helped me think about the big picture and how to play music with other musicians, it wasn't just about what I was playing. If you really think the 12 string is something you want to try then it's ok. but remember its really about the group experience, not you standing out in the performance.

Well, I'm not so much trying to stand out as to bring something to the mix that isn't there already- a little extra texture.

Remember, this group already has 2 (high-end, well played) 6-string acoustic guitars in the mix...a third would be pretty redundant. I'd contribute more by joining the choir proper (doped up on a LOT of allergy meds).

Of course, realize also that the final decision as to what- if anything- I contribute to the choir rests with the music director. If he wants my 12, he gets my 12. If he wants me to play a 6, I'll do that. If he'd prefer I sing, so be it.

I'm with you on the texture thing. What about an instrument tuned a 4th above, like a Baby Taylor or a Mustang or DuoSonic? Get those extra high textures without the redundancy in the guitar range, as three would be a bit much... Or a baritone guitar? (That might mud things up in a church...)

Yeah, I had been thinkin' about the same things; also, what about a nylon-strung, amplified-classical-like guitar? Nice, warm, churchy, different from the others there yet blendable...

Hmmm...I hadn't considered going for something short-scale. I can't say that I've played anything tuned up a fourth... I'd have to figure out the locations of the chords.

On the baritone side...while I'm looking to own a bari some time in the future, I already have a few guitars I tuned to NST that covers a bit of the same sonic range...

Besides, the bass player might complain! And we have fairly bright sound overall- our choir is definitely soprano-heavy- and it sounds quite nice in our Church. We've also recently added some teens playing a flute and a violin (or viola...couldn't tell at the time).

I am all for mini-orchestras, in church or elsewhere... SERIOUSLY!
Soprano-heavy?? Well, the good girl singers in our church seem to be mostly sopranos.. or maybe high altos. There are no good male singers right now, since one of our former bandleaders is taking a sabbatical. Of course, there is me, a baritone... but I never developed any kind of vocal chops, although occasionally I'll suggest a harmony note to one of the singers.

I would love to have a good violinist or cellist in the mix. For a while I played mandolin in a church in the Village where sometimes the pastor's kids came in, Juilliard students on violin, viola and cello. Yes indeed it was simple music - hymns - but I really enjoyed playing with them, and was honored that they LET me!

On the inexpensive side, I have a Danelectro electric 12-string. Easy to play, mostly, but pulls sharp if you're not mindful of your fretting hand... I have to admit I've wondered about coupling it with a JangleBox, especially since I can't afford the luxury of a Rick...

Also on the inexpensive side, I own an acoustic Alvarez and it's great. The bridge they're using right now is designed so that the bridge doesn't lift. Good action, good sound.

At the other end of things, a Taylor 354ce would probably satisfy all of your 12-string cravings. It'll sound and play great, and plug in superbly with the Expression system.

If you could find a Taylor T5 12-string used, that'd probably also be stunning--lots of sounds and easy to control plugged in....

Mind you, sometimes just playing a six string capoed someplace other than everybody else makes a contribution....

Y'know, the several times that I played a Danelectro 12 string electric- the "new" ones that came out in the '90s- I liked 'em enough to want one sometime; just never got around to it. Pretty cool guitars, really.

Y'know, the several times that I played a Danelectro 12 string electric- the "new" ones that came out in the '90s- I liked 'em enough to want one sometime; just never got around to it. Pretty cool guitars, really.

I understand that there are pedals that give a sort of a 12-string type sound. I've never tried one, though some people have told me that they don't sound that good. Might be worth trying out in a store that lets you do so before purchasing.

Still, given the intended usage, there is no advantage to an actual 12 string, as there are two other guitars playing at the same time. Something in a different pitch would probably be a better choice.

If it weren't for us already having a good bass player...

http://www.zozomusic.com/musicstore/pc/Hamer-Chaparral-12-String-Electric-Bass-Guitar-CH12-47p19.htm

(Heh-like I could actually play the thing! Might make a nice conversation piece, though. ;))

There's also Nashville tuning, where you take a regular 6-string guitar and use octave strings for the lower 4 - as opposed to the lower 40, for you Alaskans in the audience......

In churches one quickly realizes that the vast majority of the congregation isn't focusing on the details of our genius guitar parts anyway, which of course doesn't mean we don't want to play well and sound good anyway!

PS Should have been the "lower 48" - my bad, LOL! Doesn't change the Nashville tuning, though.....

"There's also Nashville tuning, ..."

Well, it's Nashville strung.... but that is a decent idea. I'd at least capo up four frets though.

OK...while I've heard of Nashville tuning, I'm entirely unfamiliar with the details of it.

Octave strings are??? My tuning would look like???

Oh yeah- I don't own a capo, so if I were to get one, suggestions for a quality one would be appreciated.

Nashville stringing is putting the next octave up strings on a guitar, in place of the normal gauge and, obviously, then tuning the strings an octave higher.

So the high E and B stay the same. The others are understrung to the same gauge as the high strings on a 12 string.

In a capo, look at Keyser. They seem to be common, and are well made.

So, if I understand this properly, the tuning will still be EADGBE, but the EADG part of it will be an octave higher?

So my chords stay in the same positions and I get the "jangle" of the 12 string without buying a new guitar?

That could work...

The octave strings- what size are they usually? Would I need to get some 12-string sets or could I just use a variety of light strings?

" the tuning will still be EADGBE, but the EADG part of it will be an octave higher?"

Yes, just like a 12 string.

10, 14, 9, 12, 18, 27 is one listing that I see. No reason to buy and break up 12 string sets, just go to where they sell singles and buy the gauges that you need.

I'm going to have to give that some serious thought. Thanks!

I have an instructional video where Albert Lee is playing lead on a Nashville strung guitar, and it's cool how notes go up when you expect them to go down etc. God help someone trying to figure out those lines on a guitar in regular tuning!

Yeah, Nashville Tuning/Stringing is great! You can look up the gauges of the octave-strings used in a "Medium" 12-string set, to get an idea of what gauges to go with for the 3rd through 6th strings.

You can also go with what's sometimes called "High G" Tuning/Stringing (not to be confused with Dobro High-G!), where you replace only the 3rd/G string with a .010" or .011" and tune it up an octave higher than normal. This gives you the sound of having the highest note in most chords being on the 3rd-string, sort of like a 12 string or "Nashville". I've done all of the above before on acoustic guitars; any and all set your sound apart when playing with several guitarists, particularly with a little attention paid to what register you're playing in and chord voicings.

Note that Wechter makes a couple of specific "Nashville Special Elite" guitar models, made and set-up for "Nashville" tuning from the start. This has some advantages if you don't mind a specialized guitar!

Wechter Nashville Special Elite thread with videos and further links