OK, who here knows these guys? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?




Clips.

The Wikipedia entry.

OK, so here's the deal... Pentagram has been hailed as "The American Black Sabbath." Personally, I don't think Pentagram holds a candle to Black Sabbath, but Pentagram has something interesting happening... the band is clearly very influenced by Sabbath but there's a more underground quality to the songwriting. More than anything, the band is an interesting example of an artist sticking to its guns and fighting through line-up changes, trends and other nonsense.


Sooo... have a listen and share your thoughts.

I do. A buddy from me sent me a bunch of doom / stoner albums once, and Pentagram was included. Haven't listened to them in ages but I'll give 'em a spin this weekend.

They sound like 3rd rate Sabbotage era stuff.

For a great example of a band fighting through lineup changes and still kicking ass 20 years later, I recommend Lethal Aggression.

I don't do satanism. I don't support people who do satanism. I advise anybody who cares to listen to do the same. Ain't nothin' in it but misery, sooner or later.

Seriously? It's satanism because the name of the band is "Pentagram"?

Was Black Sabbath satanism because their name was "Black Sabbath"?

C'mon, dude. That's a bit narrow, if you ask me. You don't have to like the music, but don't pass judgment based on an assumption.

because when you "assume" things, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me"

The pentagram with the goat's head on the cover is a classic, and I might add, well-known satanic symbol. If someone uses it to identify themselves, it is reasonable to think they at least want people to think there is a connection between them and satanism, whether it's a just gimmick to sell records or they actually are practicing satanists.

And, by the way, Black Sabbath made no bones about identifying themselves with satanism on their first album. They said later it was a gimmick to sell records, but they didn't deny it. Even after they said it was a gimmick, they have still gotten a lot of milage out of the connection. Ozzy still calls himself the "Prince of Darkness".

Not to start an argument, and I'm no expert on the matter, but from what I always heard the whole "satanic" angle about Sabbath was purely the record company. Why deny that which is not true ? Denial only reinforces people's impressions.

Do yourself a favour and read the lyrics of the songs on their first album:

http://www.black-sabbath.com/discog/blacksabbath.html

It is VERY open to interpretation. Even a song such as "NIB" with lyrics like "My name is Lucifer please take my hand" could be interpreted as a warning song against the temptations of evil. Tongue-in-cheek, you know ?

In the end, what probably (and again, I'm no expert) counted the most was the marketing aspect of it. A band is a brand, something you need to put out there and make people take notice. There is no such thing as bad publicity, after all.

At the risk of being burned a the stake here, I find this no more associative than the popularism of "Jesus" hippy music back in the 60's (particularly the Doobie Brothers, the Beatles, John Harrison).

Sabbath has been my favorite band for over thirty years and I am no more drawn to Satanism today than thirty years ago - which is not at all.

I do, however, wholy support Picker's decision to listen to or not listen to anything based on his sensibilities or beliefs. To refuse to listen to a particlular piece of music seen as Satanic can easily smack of uber-conservative Christian elitism. To denouce his decision could as easily be seen as part of an undercurrent of modern anti-Christian liberal philosophy.

That said, I'll give it a listen. Erik hasn't steered me wrong on a piece of music yet. Everyone digs on "The Casulties of Jazz" when I play it for them.

I denounce any decision based on ignorance and pre-conceived notions.

Show me a consistent pattern of celebration of satanism and/or evil deeds and I'll concede the point.

Excerpt from "Children Of The Grave" - Black Sabbath.

So you children of the world,
listen to what I say
If you want a better place to live in
spread the words today
Show the world that love is still alive
you must be brave
Or you children of today are
Children of the Grave, Yeah!

Where is the celebration of evil and glorification of Satan?

From "Symptom of the Universe"

Oh my child of love's creation, come and step inside my dreams
In your eyes I see no sadness, you are all that loving means
Take my hand and we'll go riding through the sunshine from above
We'll find happiness together in the summer skies of love

Yeah, that's demonic for sure.

Even Sabbath's darker stuff was touching on the concepts of mental illness and drug addiction, not celebrating evil.

Some people can't separate marketed image from actual artistic output.

This is a sore spot for me, because I dealt with this crap growing up. My mother was quite convinced that all heavy metal bands were satan worshipping drug addicts, even though she never had the first clue what any of their songs actually said.

Why argue about it? If Picker doesn't want to listen to it, so be it. It doesn't matter what YOU perceive HIS decision to be based on.

Some people might find your Metal Chef knife to be some sort of mutilation tool and the use of "violence" in your episodes to be the "stereotypical" metal demonic stereotype. I find it funny myself, but those people who think that vegetables have feelings and we shouldn't eat them or cut them up probably don't.

I dig the band I have one or two of their albums in my "Stuff I really need to listen to" pile. I think I need to dig them out this weekend and give them a good listen.
As far as the religious concerns it is all music to me. I don't care about an artists beliefs. Everybody can believe whatever they want as far as I am concerned. I don't care if they are singing about their religion or not. If the music is good I will listen. I have my King's X CDs right next to my King Diamond CDs they seem to get along quite nicely.

Point (and underlying point) taken.

I'll try to be nicer to the vegetables (and the extras)

If vegetables have feelings, what are we supposed to eat?

Erik - See what you started?

Griff - You've picked a total of twelve lines from two songs from a body of work that spans about two dozen albums over two decades (NOT including Ozzy's solo work). Hardly representative. Since I've refused to give this thread the benefit of being worth plowing through my song books and lyrics.com to find twelve lines from two songs that proport Satanic virtue, I have nothing tangeble to counter. Unless you know Picker - he could be related to Sharon Tate for all we know - a lot better than I though, one could construe that YOU are making your evaluation of Picker based on ignorance and pre-concieved notions.

My preception is my reality.

Erik, thanks for the heads up. This thread is over.

I'm not speaking out of ignorance, Ed. I had the album and listened to it extensively when it first came out. I know what they lyrics say.



Yeah, a lot of things could be taken a lot of different ways if you go to the trouble of playing speculative games about artist intent with them. Regardless, I just don't believe I'm missing anything important by not having any truck with music that purports itself as connected to satanism, even if it is tongue in cheek. And again, I advise anyone who cares to listen to do the same. That's all I said and am saying now. Read my post again. I'm not ordering anybody to do anything, or trying to push my beliefs down anyone's throat. I am offering a little of what I feel is good advice to people I feel affection for, namely the people on this forum. If you don't agree, ignore it and go on.

I don't know.....maybe this website can shed some light!
http://www.vegetablecruelty.com/about/

Was the British band Pentangle a satanic group?

Kurt told us it was okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings. It's true!


As for the whole satanism thing? PLEASE. It's always been a ploy (known or unknown) to bring in the disaffected black t-shirt wearing masses. If a band is any good they'll make their bones based on the music. That's where longevity comes from.

Now if these guys were REALLY satanists, then they may have gone the route of some of the black metal bands of Scandinavia. And a lot of those guys started killing one another, burning churches and the like. Thankfully we're a good 15 years past that scene.

Okay, BACK TO THE BAND IN QUESTION... (seriously, why don't you guys take the OT stuff to different threads? Or PM's, for that matter?)...

Actually not bad. Definitely faster than many of Sabbath's stuff, putting Black Sabbath pretty firmly into "Doom Metal." I definitely like the lead singer's use of reverb-- very "Ozzy-esque," a quality I would like to see return to the metal scene...

Another good contemporary, whom I consider largely under-rated are Saint Vitus:


Amazing, how many of these early metal bassists seemed to like Rickenbackers. Cliff Burton started out with one. I think Geezer Butler also played one, if I remember right?

I should have clarified: I understand and respect your POV. Mine is different, but that's what a POV is for, after all.

I wholeheartedly agree on the fact that anything can be taken out of context and used to support one's arguments.

As far as I see it, you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. And just like you, I'm not here to make people do what I want or see things my way. Too much hassle, and I'd rather play bass instead

This arguement sounds familiar.

Done

and

Done

You guys slay me. Does no one see the irony in a someone who's user name is Jack the Picker, and whose avatar is of a gentleman in a top hat in what appears to be Victorian London in the fog, posting against evil symbolism?

I do remember Pengagram also some band called Dokken and a whole host of other metal that used that type of sybolism.

So we're supposed to stay away from Politics and Religion so to restore some Political balance here's a Pentacle:

The special irony in this is that Picker is a known hater of all things metal, and only generally pipes up in these threads to troll. I take responsibility for not ridiculing him instead of berating him for his troll-ish post.

Picker has always hated metal, and takes any opportunity he can to poke at it.

No Griff, I certainly have not always hated metal, nor do I hate it now. It's not my cup of tea, but it's like opera to me, in that I respect great musicianship when I hear it, even if I wouldn't pay money to hear it. My advice about Pentagram wasn't based on the style of music they play.

And as far as trolling goes, the post above makes mine look like a love letter.

Wow Davio thanks for those links. Eric, I missed that you where a great fan of Stephen King. I read the Dark Tower series a few years back and have practically everything he wrote. But its grown old a bit on me now. You go through phases in your life.

Hey Piker, I'm only playing, I sometimes say things as I see them and these things make me chuckle. As you say its like Opera, but not just the musicianship, the play acting as well. Just that those actors/singers don't sell the product by appearing to live their lives like that, or expect the theatre goers to as well. I love the fact that they're all out playing golf together during the day and the make up goes on only for the performance.

I absolutely agree that Pentagram sounds a lot like the Sabotage-era Sabbath stuff... However, among the whole "stoner/doom" community, Pentagram is overwhelmingly revered. I find that somewhat amusing.

I primarily find the band to be an interesting side-note in the rock/metal world. The music isn't bad, but it's not amazing, either. Having said this, I was kinda curious to see what you guys thought of Pentagram... BTW, I liked St. Vitus better, too.

Regarding the Satanic thing... actually never considered that the band's name or imagery might be offensive to anyone--I do apologize, folks. I had no intention to make people upset or anything like that. I just thought it would be interesting to see how you guys reacted to the music.

I guess that goes to show you how different people can be. Where Picker took a look at the symbol and immediately had a negative reaction (which is absolutely valid, BTW), I looked at the symbol and immediately dismissed it as meaningless set dressing and checked out the music. I never intended to get a whole Satan argument thing happening here.

You're a Satan argument thing happening here

Sorry, couldn't resist

Yeah, I know what you mean. Kinda reminds me of Led Zeppelin-- they almost always take the back seat to the Rolling Stones in every Mtv/Vh1 countdown, but amongst many musicians (and stoners, and metal-heads, for that matter), Led Zeppelin is much more revered.

Honestly, thanks for the heads-up, Bear Jew-- I didn't know much about this band before you posted it.

Having just recently attended a Dethklok/Mastodon concert, I think I'm burned-out on death metal, trip metal, and grindcore for a while-- I need to beef up my Doom metal collection, and Pentagram might be a good starting point.

I think Pentagram may be so revered in its genre because of its almost Spinal Tap-like history--so much has gone wrong for these dudes, but they somehow have managed to stay alive (literally) and keep the music happening. Plus, the band has never really seen any kind of mainstream success, which appeals to a lot of doom fans because, as any doomster will tell you, commercial appeal=selling out in that world.