Looking for suggestions and wisdom for starting the project studio from scratch after I move to Seattle in a month. I'll have an acoustic guitar and a R0DE NT2, SM58, maybe a hand drum. Perhaps a 4-track cassette recorder and crap pioneer spring reverb.

Priorities:
- To be recording full songs with vocals, drums, bass, keys and guitar, as soon as possible.
- By the end of the year to have a respectable sound, maybe have $8k into the studio at that point, some tube mics, nice interface, etc.

- I'll probably move into a suburban house with two good friends/occasional collaborators for roommates.
- Will likely be working 9-5 in an office job. Yep.
- Just graduated college, have no priorities other than music production.


Given the situation, what do I buy first? I know you guys have thought about it if your place got jacked or burned to the ground, where would you start again? What do I get from a used dealer or pawn shop, what should be new online, new from a dealer? Acoustics before mics, or mics before acoustics? All those general questions and more, answer at will, whatever you prefer to discuss I will be grateful for the perspective. I have a general working knowledge of studios, acoustics, and recording, so no need to educate, just looking for preferences/opinions/suggestions.


Thank you!

My number one suggestion to all newbees is to start off with something like the Tascam US-122. Most manufacturers have a similar package, and they all do the job, and they usually cost under $200, and if you go to ebay, you may get one for around $125.

These little boxes usually contain a feature set similar to this:
Stereo line output
SPDIF output
2 mic inputs
2 line inputs switchable to be 2 instrument inputs
MIDI I/O
USB or firewire out to computer

The box contains mic amps, line amps, ADCs and DACs. The package usually includes a lite version of some recording software and a sample library playback software.

A set of headphones, a couple of mics, and you are in business using most any computer. From that modest investment you will get your feet wet in digital recording, and learn enough about it that you can make informed decisions about what you need to buy to make your $8k studio. Cheap insurance, to stop you from spending more than $200 on shit that you don't need after a particularly stupid trip to guitar center.

It is my point of view that the monitor chain is critical, since it is the window through which we view our work. Instead of having 5 speaker sets, none of which are accurate, spend your money on one set that tells the truth. But the amps are equally important, as are the DACs, the monitor level control, the shape and treatment of the room. This all makes up your monitoring system. How can you hear the difference among front end components, eqs, mics, compressors, etc if the monitoring system is subpar?

I'm responding in part to your response from the studio monitor/PA system thread, but I think it's more on topic with this thread.

First off, thanks for the quick responses and detailed overview. Also thanks for the acoustics ideas in the other thread. One thing I'm wondering is, did you need to hire the union carpenters because it requires serious carpentry skills, or will I be fine with a router, drill, screws and some wood glue?

As far as gear goes..
I've been working with a Presonus Firepod 96k interface for about a year and a half, and it's not really cutting it. The preamps suck. But I will be selling it off to some poor soul and moving up.

For a new mic pre, I'm looking at either..
Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56. 24/192k, good set of I/O for analog, S/PDIF, optical, etc.
And it does this:
"In addition to six of Focusrite's legendary mic pres, two of Liquid Saffire 56's preamps use the third generation of Focusrite's Liquid Preamp, providing the choice of ten different preamp emulations. These include emulations based on the Neve 1073, the Pultec MB-1, Telefunken V72 and seven more. A harmonics dial on each Liquid preamp lets you account for variance in vintage originals of the same model, or use levels of 2nd, 3rd and 5th Harmonic distortion creatively to shape your sound."

That, or I might double my budget for a Mackie Onyx 1640 mixer, LOTS more I/O but only 96k. Problem is, it's $1200 and requires a $450 firewire card to hook it up to a computer.

Obviously, the Mackie console will provide a lot of ergonomic versatility, and it's quality. It's got 16 inputs for mics and line, whereas the Focusrite only has 8 total, mic or line on any of the 8, and it's rack mount so I'll need to do everything on the computer screen clicking the mouse.
But it's half the cost and offers those neat pre-amp emulations. Considering it's Focusrite, they should be good, right? Then again, I won't get analog EQ from the Focusrite or analog controls...

A predicament indeed. Thoughts?


As far as other studio ideas...
What I'm wondering is about stuff like using older floor speakers as monitors -- what if I can find a nice set of Cerwin Vegas for under $400? Get a quality amp and some nice speaker wire and run with it, or hold off and get a nice pair of active studio monitors for $1000 or something? Obviously I'll need the acoustics in the room, first.

Or is it pointless to get an analog synth down the line when I can just use digital synths with Reason and other programs?
Is it a good idea to get a used half-inch reel to reel machine from eBay, and is it a deal if I can find someone to clean it out and tune it up, or will that cost $1000 just to maintain it and maybe it will have problems because it shouldn't be cheap on eBay in the first place?

The weird stuff. The used gear ideas, is it worth it to build my own pre-amps from kits, or should I just spend the money on something decent.


Thanks again for the responses and the ideas. I hope to be offering good advice as my knowledge in these things increases, but we'll see how long that takes.

Also, any idea how the music industry is doing? I'm hoping to be a producer/engineer someday, and I think the jobs are slimming out and the beast is tanking, but what do I know? Heh, here's to the future.

Thanks again

"...did you need to hire the union carpenters because it requires serious carpentry skills, or will I be fine with a router, drill, screws and some wood glue?"

I was building a bunch of boxes, and it was great to have help. They were union stagehands who work in the theatrical scene shop in which I did the work, and I was happy to pay them their rate in order to have help knocking together all the boxes that I made. It was also quite a bit easier to do with huge table saws with large outfeed tables, assembly tables, air-powered stapler guns etc. We had them done in no time,because of the ease of working in a professional shop. But you are just making simple wooden boxes (or MDF, if you are frugal as I was...) so no, you don't need a shop or mad carpentry skills.

"Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56. ... a Mackie Onyx 1640 mixer"

I think that you're wasting your money.

"I won't get analog EQ from the Focusrite or analog controls..."

and you need this because?????

" using older floor speakers as monitors -- what if I can find a nice set of Cerwin Vegas for under $400? ..."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah........... you can use a screwdriver as a chisel if you want to, but it won't make a particularly good chisel.

"...get a nice pair of active studio monitors for $1000 or something?"

last time I checked, no monitor set for less than $1500 was worth buying. Read what I wrote previously.

"...I'll need the acoustics in the room, first..."

I don't agree. I'd be using MY speakers in MY chosen mix position to generate the signals used to tell me where the problems in the room reside, so that I could tailor them to the system that I would be using. But yes indeed, a general treatment approach would work well, too.

"...some nice speaker wire..."

Don't waste your money on tweaky speaker wire. Use decent wire from anywhere, of a large gauge. I use ten gauge, but my speakers will accept ten gauge wire.

"...get a used half-inch reel to reel machine from eBay, and is it a deal if I can find someone to clean it out and tune it up, or will that cost $1000 just to maintain it and maybe it will have problems because it shouldn't be cheap on eBay in the first place?..."

Waste of time and money. Do you know how to align a tape machine? Do you have a frequency generator, frequency counter, spring scale, MRL tapes, O-scope (ideally...) a meter that reads small enough increments to align a tape machine? The chemicals to clean the machine, re-furbish the rubber parts, polish the tape paths? Do you know how to tell if a tape head is worn out, or the path and guides are too worn? Or the arms are capable of keeping the proper tension of the tape against the tape heads? It is great to be all misty-eyed about the great old analog days, but most of it is total bullshit spouted by people who have no clue and never had to properly deal with the medium.

"...is it worth it to build my own pre-amps from kits,..."

Do you want to be an electronics tech, or do you want to make music?

"...I'm hoping to be a producer/engineer someday, and I think the jobs are slimming out and the beast is tanking, but what do I know?..."

The business is definitely in flux and I am glad that I'm getting out instead of trying to get in. Things will shake out, and who knows how? I'd like to believe that people will get tired of the garbage that they have today, get tired of the crap sound coming from crap speakers in a crappy format and want to get back to some form of quality, but there is no assurance of that. If I was looking for a job today, it would not be as a studio owner or producer, it would be elsewhere, possibly as a performer which would be a cheaper and easier way to make a living.

Everything you said makes sense except the part about wasting my money on a Focusrite or a Mackie Onyx. If I go for a cheap computer interface, the preamps are going to be crap and start buzzing and giving bad signal within a month. Or so I assume, and I'm wary of the XLR/TRS inputs that combine both jacks. So I'm looking for something with computer connectivity and good preamps. At least the Focusrite allows for ADAT connectivity, so I can expand pretty easily.

So what alternative would you recommend for digital recording?

In the first place, I personally believe in separate components. Why? Because if you buy a unit that is a combination of several devices, and you want to upgrade, you not only have to junk the part you want to replace, but you also have to loose something that was working fine, AND you have to go through the learning curve of a new multifunction piece, and all that installation crap.

Okay, so what is my system? A computer interface. A separate set of A to D converters. Separate D to A converters. Separate mic pres. Need to upgrade mic pres? Unplug the current ones and plug in the new ones. Everything else is exactly what you are used to using.

So what would I recommend for someone like yourself? As I've said before, the Samplitude home studio version for about $80, an RME card like the RayDAT or something similar, and just to get into the game, a Behringer ADA-8000.... 8 mic pres, with 8 ADCs and ADCs for about $250. I don't use these myself, but I do know several major players who do and I trust them when they tell me that these boxes are more than just 'good enough'. What this allows you to do is to buy a single or dual mic pre of some better quality to use as your 'gold' channel, while still having enough channels to handle your needs at any given time. I'm not a big fan of Behringer, but
Focusrite has really fallen hard, from a company that was to be envied, to a company that makes nothing that I want to own. And please don't be sucked in by marketing hype that promises that an X is going to sound like a Y, for thousands less. That is only true if you listen to the money, not the gear.

Re:studio monitors... there are some really good ones out there that aren't well known by the new crop of guys who shop at guitar center, that can be had for reasonable prices. I paid $690 for a pair of Westlakes, for example.

BTW - the "nothing worth having under $1500" thing...

http://www.markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/Speakers/Studio-Monitors/Adam-Audio/A7.xhtml

I disagree.

Ok now THAT makes a whole lot of sense. Seems like an RME and a cheap pre + nice pre are the way to go. The RME's will support most any DAW software?

For some reason I always have at least one misunderstanding, though..
Why pay for audio software in the age of piracy? It's easy enough to find thousand-dollar software at virtually no risk. I've certainly found it, not that I've actually downloaded or used it or anything..

I think the developers of PhotoShop must throw a block party every time somebody actually pays for their software, and I imagine it's the same for most high-end DAW software users, or rather amateur users on high-end software. Unless you've got the extra $2k or $3k for the luxury of the manufacturer support and updates, why not find top-notch software for free and get fully acquainted with its possibilities?

I suppose I just want to see if you have an argument in favor of paying for software when you're not in a pro studio.

Thanks again for the perspectives on gear and whatnot. Griffinator, thanks for the monitor recommendation...any suggestions for subwoofers? I've heard mono-subs can hurt your perception of the mix, and it's better to do stereo subs. Thoughts?

Looking forward to the responses.

Well, I have said that I am not up on the current crop of offerings more than once. I've not examined nor listened to these Adams, so I cannot comment.

Yes, the RMEs not only support the softwares, but they offer superior support, features like TotalMix, and free tools like DigiCheck that you would pay for elsewhere.

"...Why pay for audio software..."

Just because someone else is an asshole, ..... by the way, did you read where Waves nailed a bunch of studios that were using pirated copies of their programs?

".....any suggestions for subwoofers? ..."

Yes. Don't use them. Buy a full range speaker system that has the components matched and balanced from the start. Do you remember what I said about small rooms and their low end problems? You want to add to those problems? Do you have any ability to test and balance the playback levels for accuracy once you've added subs and a sub amp? And when you change the volume and the relative balance between the monitors and the subs change, what happens? Why not just spend the money on a good pair of full range monitors, instead of trying to cobble something together?

I'm something of a monitor snob, as I believe that the monitor system is critical... it is the only place wherein you actually HEAR any of the stuff that you have. If the monitor system is not accurate, it would be like trying to paint a picture while wearing colored or distorted glasses. What you think you are doing is not what you are doing at all, what you think that you are hearing is not really what is there.

Wouldn't it suck if you busted your butt producing a record for a band who then promptly stiffed you when the final mixes were done?

Same deal with the software companies.

Except they don't have the luxury of being able to hold anything hostage, like you do with the final mix...

"I suppose I just want to see if you have an argument in favor of paying for software when you're not in a pro studio."

How about hopefully you are a better person than that, maybe your parents taught you some values, I don't know, pick any reason you can think of for not being a slimeball turdsucker.

Ok, fair enough, I can see your concern for ethics and money going where it's deserved. The designers need to get paid, and maybe some will be out of a job if enough people keep pirating, right?

However, I wouldn’t compare it to a lone engineer getting stiffed by a band, or something like a dine-and-dash. The loss doesn’t fall on one person’s shoulders like shoplifting or theft, it falls on a large company that’s manufacturing a lot of their products overseas, generally over-charging for the software, and often manufacturing loads of other products which are also manufactured overseas. Case in point: Digidesign/M-Audio/Avid Technology.
While that’s not every company, it applies to most of the commonly-pirated software. I'd feel worse about pirating from a smaller company with less profit-based enterprises, and I doubt I'd try to acquire that software without paying for it.

I'm sure I'll be paying for software some time in the next few years, but for the time being I'm not going to limit my possibilities by using a cheap program that's designed with flaws as incentives to spend more money (like most products out there), especially considering how little Avid Technologies needs my $300 or $1000 for a version of Pro Tools, or whatever it costs.

When my budget increases, I'm sure I'll enjoy the luxury of product support and factory updates, of knowing that I'm contributing towards a company's success in creating good products, sure. Maybe someday I'll even be able to deduct my software costs from my taxes like you guys at the pro studios.

But can you really blame a guy for wanting to get the most out of his equipment and use great software when it's available but he can't afford it? It's not like I'm taking a piss in the company's mail boxes, and I hardly think "slimeball turdsucker" applies across the board to anyone willing to pirate an audio program.

Ethics are one thing, but is that next $2000 mic pre or channel strip really doing more good than if you donated that money to a fund for impoverished children anywhere else in the world? Can any of us absolve ourselves of that ethical guilt? I know I can't. We should all live in the woods with nature, sure, but I'm still driving a car and supporting The Man, so go figure.

I do appreciate your advice and wisdom on the subject of audio, I appreciate your insight on all of these topics. I don't want to be the asshole that drops in, asks a few questions, pisses everyone off, and then gets banned from the forum. If you think you're wasting your time with me, let me know and I'll stop bringing up incendiary topics.
I do hope I've given you some insight into the motives for pirating beyond the general label of "slimeball turdsucker", or something similar, and I hope you'll understand that it's not going away. Pirating has ruined the music industry as we know it and it's causing a paradigm shift. No choice, no looking back. Sorry, guys, but it's a huge reality and if you simply label it as an "asshole" thing to do, you'll be ignoring a lot of potential and a lot of development, both good and bad, that's going to affect everything around us. Thanks again for the advice and insight, and I do hope I've managed to stay in your good graces. Bill, if it's any consolation, I'm a Pittsburgh native, too, and went to Pitt. I apologize for the long windedness, but hopefully someone's paying you to do something else while you read these forum topics.

Cheers

Ethics. You got 'em or you don't. You're a Man or you ain't. Pretty simple stuff. Because it is always easy to sneak and steal, and slide around things when you want something and rationalize it in some way. Why not fuck your best friend's girl? She's passed out, you've had a few, he crashed out... there is always a rationalization for being a slimeball turdsucker.

When it comes to using pirated programs, that bothers me personally because there are so many really decent freeware programs, some real nice shareware programs, and that entry level Samplitude that I mentioned really kicks ass for what it costs... there is no reason to steal, other than some rationalization wherein the world is somehow better because you do. How does that work?

My parents taught me right from wrong, and they taught me that I could not always have everything that I wanted, but if I saved a little and wasn't in such a hurry, I could have some pretty good stuff. And it has worked out that way.

Now, it seems that the rules don't apply to anyone, they are all 'special' and should be exempt, because gee, they really WANT stuff, ya know????

Jeez.

So getting stiffed on what you expected to be a paid gig isn't reason enough?

WTF, dude?

Ooooooh it's the big bad corporations...

Do you not understand that software companies don't manufacture a goddamned thing in China? Because they don't manufacture a goddamned thing!

They write software. Yes, it's true, they use programmers from all over the world, because they want the best of the best writing their algorithms, but "buy USA" was never part of this discussion.

Doesn't change the fact that thousands of man-hours brought you the series of bits you think should be free. And those man-hours weren't free. Those people had to make a living. So did the people that run the company that hired those people.

If you want free software, I suggest you build a Linux box and go with Ardour, which is a completely free multitrack studio package.

I've come awfully close to going that way myself, except I can't find hardware support for my gear.

It seems like you guys see the issue in black and white, but don't you realize it's more complex than that?

Does anyone here remember how long it took music companies to start putting their music online for $0.99 per song? Or how long it took them to allow music to be played on sites like Pandora radio, effectively letting people sample and taste a lot of different music, encouraging them to buy or at least download and pay for more songs? They at least make money on advertising that way. How long after the Napster scandals did this start happening for real?
Tooooooo long.
And how much did the industry suffer, cursing itself and the music pirates like you guys are now, before it figured out how to spin the ball (at least partially) back in its direction?

What about the Minnesota mother who was sued for $80k per song for 24 songs? She only had 1700 songs shared on Kazaa in 2005. I had five times that many in 2005. If they're going to sue someone, they shouldn't be suing single mothers. It's absurd. Do you think she's a slimeball turdsucker? Should she be sued, too?
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article6534542.ece

Whatever you guys think about piracy, it's an issue that shouldn't be treated bluntly. Yes, it's wrong, but it's practically the reason for the music industry tanking as it is, and so I'm simply concerned that it should be examined more closely than just labeling it as a shitty thing to do, reverting to your upbringing, and calling it a day. That may have worked any time before 1999, but we can't expect everyone out there to start acting ethically all at once, so it's a really serious issue.

I guess this isn't a good venue to discuss the idea, but I find it hard to just call it "evil" and be done with it. I will likely download some nice software that was designed by a big company that will still be sending its employees home in BMW's or at least new Toyotas whether I pay for it or not, so I won't be losing any sleep at night over it. And so will scores of other young musicians. So maybe the companies need to re-think their business models, because whether I decide to shape up my ethics and go with the freeware (can you recommend any? I would like to look into it), there are thousands who are pirating all day long. Ignoring it clearly does not work, so it's an interesting predicament for the industry at large.

The fact that thousands of other people are completely devoid of ethics should not be a justification for you to do likewise.

Besides, I thought we were talking about software, not the RIAA. Last I checked, the RIAA doesn't write DAW packages.

"...it's an issue that shouldn't be treated bluntly..."

Why NOT?

And here's an old addage... "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime." American Justice is supposed to be blind. What about her being a mother makes what she did less wrong? Like I said, everybody is so special, and the rules don't apply to them... THAT is what is wrong. Do you think it might be okay if she robbed a bank? Maybe shot a few people? Wrong is wrong. Making excuses for people who do wrong things? That is also wrong.

But of course, it is always more convenient to shift the focus from the wrongdoer, to the successful victim and claim that because they are successful they should be shit on. Is there any logic left in this world?

I realize how wrong it is but please forgive me if I can't see raping my friend's girlfriend and stealing software from a large corporation in the same light.

Thanks again for the responses, but I think I'm going to attempt the discussion of piracy in another forum where the subject is pertinent to the forum's title and where people are willing to discuss it.

Also, any recommendations for freeware or shareware programs, if you know any off hand? Thanks again for the advice, and you guys have a great weekend.

"...stealing software from a large corporation ..."

Why do you assume that these are large corporations? (SAWStudio, Wavelab, and about four others I can think of are one man operations, while Samplitude is only a couple of guys.), but what makes it okay to steal from a corporation?

"..I'm going to attempt the discussion of piracy in another forum where.."

Where the others agree with you. I know. It is hard to refute logic, law, and right and wrong with 'well, no one can stop me, so I'm gonna..."

Bill, please read my post above. I said...

"While that’s not every company, it applies to most of the commonly-pirated software. I'd feel worse about pirating from a smaller company with less profit-based enterprises, and I doubt I'd try to acquire that software without paying for it."

Once again, thanks for the advice.

Peace

Well, FWIW, even companies like Cakewalk started out as one or two man operations.

Cakewalk in particular has always kept a pro-customer position on its software. Rather than introducing cumbersome hardware dongles or obnoxious challenge-response systems, they have always confined their security to a simple passcode.

Just because they got big by making a quality product, does that justify stealing from them?

Well, here's my $0.02.

I'm a Pro Tools guy, so I'd suggest you invest some of the $8k into Pro Tools LE 8.0. It comes fully loaded with all sorts of soft synths, fx and everything else you need to record, mix, and edit your music. For the interface, you might go Mbox 2 mini with 2 audio inputs, or spend a bit more and get the Digi rack 003 Factory for around $2400. That give you 8 audio inputs.
Wide Range of I/O

High-speed FireWire connectivity

18 simultaneous channels of audio I/O

24-bit/96 kHz resolution

8 analog inputs, 8 analog outputs

4 professional mic preamps with individual gain and high-pass filter; 48V phantom power enabled on channel pairs

8 channels of ADAT optical I/O or two channels of S/PDIF optical I/O

2 channels of S/PDIF digital I/O

1 MIDI input, 2 MIDI outputs (16 channels in/32 channels out)

BNC Word Clock I/O

Dedicated studio monitor output, plus alternate control room output

Alternate Source input for external device monitoring

Dual headphone outputs with individual source and level controls

In addition to all that, you get a truck load of soft synths, (pianos', organs, analog, drum kits, Reason adapted 3.0, Xpand2 etc etc...more than enough to get going) PLUS a huge assortment of plug-ins - reverbs, delays, fx, compression, etc etc. All you need is a simple MIDI controller board to add all kinds of extra tracks to your songs.

One of the less expensive, but great sounding mics is the Shure KSM 27. It's around $300, but is a good all around mic. I like it a lot.

Don't skimp on your monitors either...you want good level clarity for mixing. There's lots of great sounding ones out there. Probably in the $1,000 range will get you great quality.

add a couple of music stands, popper stoppers, mic stands and a good power source and you're in for probably less than $5,000. Spend some on building an iso booth, if you have the space to do it.

Can you tell me a company that ISN'T a "profit based enterprise" as you put it? As far as I know, companies are in the business of making money. They make a good that you or I want, we pay them money for it.

Stealing is wrong no matter how many people do it or who they do it from.

Software piracy is illegal. If you do it, IMO you're no less of a scumbag than anyone else who commits a crime.