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#2092903 - 07/03/09 07:28 PM Set-list patch changes
MusicWorkz Offline
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Unlike some of the power players around here (no names cool) who gig an entire set without changing instruments/patches (i.e. piano, rhodes et. al and/or organ), I am at a point where I can go thru one or two patch changes PER SONG (the max currently is four including intro and outro).

While I get great use of MASTER mode on the Motif and programming sequential program changes, I am curious how others manage multiple patch changes in their set lists.

How many do you have per show and per song? Do you think it gets a bit out of control at times, or is it just par for the course?
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#2092905 - 07/03/09 07:40 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
JerryA Offline
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Registered: 08/02/00
Posts: 7295
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
While I get great use of MASTER mode on the Motif and programming sequential program changes, I am curious how others manage multiple patch changes in their set lists.


Great timing, as I am attempting to change my approach. I have done ...

a) the sequential master keyboard approach (using a master keyboard which changes everything with a pedal increment). Typically 1-2 masters per song.
b) The sequential main keyboard approach (the main keyboard increments, but other keys remain the same (piano remains a piano, B3 remains B3 etc) unless I tweak them by hand. Typically 1-2 patches/performances/mixes per song.
c) the live switching approach (Rolands in performance mode allow you toggle parts in and out of the mix on the fly) One performance per song.

Currently I am preparing to do some improvised stuff with a drummer, so I am thinking of very independent instruments. S90ES in mix/song mode to allow on the fly switching. One or two other synths as standbys to fill in gaps with pre-programmed drones or bass patterns. Ableton and a Korg Kaoss with some loops/found sound. In this context it doesn't pay to organize sequentially but in timbre families. I think.

Hoping this helps,

Jerry

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#2092908 - 07/03/09 08:00 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: JerryA]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 9339
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
When available, Master Mode, so I can put the performance splits in set order for each gig. This speeds up song transitions.

I sold my MOTIF and use the CS6x these past couple of years. 61 keys makes it harder to cover four patches per split (per song), and it has no Master Mode, so I have to write the letter-coded hexadecimal patch number on the set list next to each song as I simply can't remember that many out of 68 or so songs.

I'm looking forward to exploring what the Kurzweil PC3X has to offer in regards to gig setup master lists, as well as split points (eight would be great as four is often not enough).

I refuse to switch patches during a song; I set up all patch changes within a keyboard split and save it with the song name.

When we had a full-time keyboardist, he often messed up at gigs because the low light and/or shadows made it too hard for him to find his patch change during the song. That taught me a lesson.
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#2092915 - 07/03/09 08:28 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Mark Schmieder]
MusicWorkz Offline
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Tusker, I am pretty much sticking with your (a). The Motif is great for that and it woks well. I am starting to bump my head against keeping everything confined to a single bank of 16 even though there are patches that can do double duty-I don't want to have to skip back and forth looking for them. Every patch is programmed with the song name and key signature as its master patch name so I don't have to guess if it is the right set-up for a particular piece.

Mark, it's 76-keys for me or nothing at this point thu! No way I would try this with 61 anymore. I also ran into lighting issues playing outside-the sunlight made it almost impossible to see the screen at any angle (even with a covered stage). Luckily it wasn't a long set to deal with.
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#2092922 - 07/03/09 08:48 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
SpaceNorman Offline
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Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
I'm using my CP300 as my primary controller these days. I use it to control pretty much all patch changes - which means in performance mode - a single button push sets up CP300 internal engine, my RD700SX and my Motif ES rack unit.

The CP300 support 4 banks of 16 parformance patches active on the board. The beautiful thing is however that you can save any current group (the 4 band x 16 performance patches) of patches as a Performance File. Performance Files (the 4 x 16 groups) easily load in and out of memory.

These days I have a "performance file" for each project I play in. I've gone so far as to arrange my voices in the order that I play them in each set ... Set #1 in Bank A, Set #2 in Bank B, etc. If I needed more - I could simply create a "performance file" for each set.

The ONLY thing that I really, really, really wish Yamaha would provide is a software interface for working with the CP300 (the equivalent of the Studio Manager Software provides a GUI interface to the Motif). Such an interface would make organizing Performance patch data an absolute snap. Unfortunately, according the the Yamaha Tech folks - such an interface isn't available. Bummer.


Edited by SpaceNorman (07/03/09 08:51 PM)
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#2092923 - 07/03/09 08:57 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
MusicWorkz Offline
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman


The ONLY thing that I really, really, really wish Yamaha would provide is a software interface for working with the CP300 (the equivalent of the Studio Manager Software provides a GUI interface to the Motif). Such an interface would make organizing Performance patch data an absolute snap. Unfortunately, according the the Yamaha Tech folks - such an interface isn't available. Bummer.


Even with Studio Manager, the gripe is essentially the same. The editor/"librarian" software for the Motif is ONLY good for accessing voice patches, but not performance or master patches. THAT logic makes entirely no sense at all. Let's forget about programming for the moment, too-I just want to be able to shuffle around locations as need be without copying/overwriting/moving/copying/saving every time I want to set up a new playlist.
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#2092965 - 07/04/09 04:27 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
SpaceNorman Offline
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Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
Even with Studio Manager, the gripe is essentially the same. The editor/"librarian" software for the Motif is ONLY good for accessing voice patches, but not performance or master patches.


I didn't realize that! I've played with Studio Manager a little ... but not enough to say I really know it. I tend to be a preset jockey - and with the exception of playing on the periphery (i.e., MIDI channel selections, effect settings, pedal assignments, etc.) - I typically don't do much with voice settings.

It sounds like our wish list is pretty similar in terms of what we want from a software interface! Heck, I'd be happy if I could just type in the patch name using a real keyboard instead of having to step through 254 ACSII characters for each position in the name field!
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#2092966 - 07/04/09 04:52 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
bloodyMary Offline
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Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1785
Loc: Israel
Heh. I sometimes have 7 patch changes in a song, where each patch is a complex split/layer with all kinds of real time controllers. Ordering patches in incremental order and stepping through 'em with a foot pedal works best for me.
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#2092984 - 07/04/09 06:58 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
MusicWorkz Offline
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman

It sounds like our wish list is pretty similar in terms of what we want from a software interface! Heck, I'd be happy if I could just type in the patch name using a real keyboard instead of having to step through 254 ACSII characters for each position in the name field!


SN, some of your wish is here at least. The latest versions beyond the original OS for the Motif XS DOES include functionality to hook up a USB keyboard to enter names and such. I don't bother with it though.
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#2092985 - 07/04/09 07:00 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: bloodyMary]
MusicWorkz Offline
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: bloodyMary
Heh. I sometimes have 7 patch changes in a song, where each patch is a complex split/layer with all kinds of real time controllers. Ordering patches in incremental order and stepping through 'em with a foot pedal works best for me.


I would lose my mind if any of our songs had seven patch changes...lol.
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#2092988 - 07/04/09 07:04 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4319
Loc: DE
We change our set list all the time so putting them in order before each gig would be a monumental task for me. And what do you do when you have to make an on the fly change to the list, like a request or something?

I make the set lists in excel, so on mine, I list out the patches I need for each keyboard for each song. While I'm playing, I'll glance at the next song and see what I need to call up and change patches ahead of time where I can, and get the S90ES ready by hitting the bank button so when the song ends all I need to do is hit the patch number for the next song, and off we go.
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#2092990 - 07/04/09 07:15 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: DanL]
MusicWorkz Offline
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
You are gigging on a whole other level. We don't take requests, but when the singer deviates from the set, we basically go into traditional gospel default which means I end up playing organ behind the piano-definitely not where I like being since I am a keyboardist cool.
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#2092992 - 07/04/09 07:23 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
SpaceNorman Offline
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Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
SN, some of your wish is here at least. The latest versions beyond the original OS for the Motif XS DOES include functionality to hook up a USB keyboard to enter names and such.


Unfortunately - I'm looking for that sort of functionality when working with my CP300 (which is what I'm using as my "master" controller). When I wrote Yamaha asking about any sort of software interface - I was told the only way to change anything was via the buttons on the CP300 itself.

Bummer!
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#2092993 - 07/04/09 07:41 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
MusicWorkz Offline
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I know, it does help your situation now, but maybe it will help Motifate you thu...
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#2093002 - 07/04/09 08:04 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
frogmonkey Offline
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Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 1424
Loc: Vermont, USA
I often do a lot of patch changes in a tune, sometimes none. I can't plan in out in advance, though, because set lists are always changing. And we usually do a few impromptu freak-outs and "dub" sections which is where I do most of my weirdness.

So, I don't do anything fancy-- I just reach over and change the patch on the keyboard. It means I have to remember where my patches are, which I sometimes fail to do with new patches.

I keep my Roland Fantom in patch mode. I use the favorites and I have the 16 pads set up to change patches as well.

The PEK is easy to change patches with it's numerical keypad, assuming I can remember where the patch is.

NE3- of course it's easy to change patches, and I'll often switch between rhodes and organ for a chorus.

Microkorg, too... just turn the dial and hit the a/b button.

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#2093005 - 07/04/09 08:27 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: frogmonkey]
SpaceNorman Offline
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Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
I posted this in a thread on "wish list" products on another forum...

What I'd really LOVE to have would be an external hardware device designed to send program change data (MSB, LSB, Program #) and typical "master" MIDI controller parameters (i.e., octave shift, pedal assignments, etc.) - to multiple MIDI connected devices with the push of a single button. It would have the following characteristics:

It would have the ability to control a minimum of 8 remote devices.

It would create and store "Performance Setups" - each one containing the definition of a single "multi-device patch" (think Program Change, typical "master" MIDI controller parameters associated with each device being included in the "Setup".

It would have an ample sized LCD screen that displays Setup Name and #.

It would have a dedicated keypad (think 10 key numeric keypad) style input to call up Setup by number (w\enter button - allowing next selection to be staged but not activated (i.e., changes sent) until enter button is pushed).

It would have a number of programmable "preset" keys - to which any Setup # can be assigned for "instant access".
Capacity to store 1,000+ Performance "Setups".

It would support a "Set List" Mode that would allow the user to create a custom list of Setup #s (from any of 1,000+ Performance "Setups") that would be navigated in order - by pressing "Next" and "Previous" buttons. (In "Set List" mode - LCD screen would display a segment of the list .. i.e., current Setup plus the previous 2 Setups and the next 2 on deck Setups - by Setup Name and #).

It would have a Software interface so that the device can be programmed via a USB connected computer. The software would facilitate the creation of each performance Setup - i.e., keyboard entry of values to be transmitted to remote devices, entering of Setup Name text, etc. The software would also provide easy access to the library of Performance "Setups" to facilitate creating and managing "Set Lists". The software would provide "file" management capabilities - allowing the user to store "Setups" and "Setlists" on the PC - and upload/download them to and from the hardware device - essentially allowing the creation of "Setups" and "Setlists" that would be limited only by disk space on the PC to save them.

Programming of voices/patches/parameters remains with the individual MIDI devices in the rig that are being controlled by the "Master". The "Master" centralizes and simplifies controlling the entire rig.
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#2093028 - 07/04/09 10:14 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
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In a perfect world, setlists are set a day or two beforehand and the setlist never gets altered and nobody ever sits in.

In the world that I gig in, that never ever is the case. I love the idea of programming everything to the last patch change and having incremental masters. If I were touring with Mariah Carey or Madonna, doubtless that would be the way to go.

For RnB gigs that I do however, I don't have it setup in a master situation - even if I'm using 2 Motifs which is often the case. I uses both voices and performances - sometimes even 2 performances per song on the Motif XS, but often just a voice or two on each keyboard, and that is usually quite sufficient for a tune. I don't have the patches in order of the setlist, I just have a working memory of where they are or at least the 'neighborhood' they are in so I can get there quickly enough. 1/2 the songs use the same rhodes, so I don't want to waste bank space by having a rhodes patch every 3 patches. I do name the patches according to the song they are used for, or at least the first song they are used for when I program the patch. I have 'Jill Rhodes' which is a rhodes I use for almost everything, but I programmed it originally for a Jill Scott song. Or 'Getaway lead' which is a synth patch for the break on EWF's getaway. I might use that patch on another song but I know that it's the 'Getaway lead' that I'm using.

When some of these cats want to sit in, I always ask 'what do you need?' a rhodes on the bottom and a clav on top or something like that will be the response. Having my keys independent and switchable makes it easier to dial up the patches on the respective boards, and then we're cruising.

It's not ideal, but it's worked for me over the years.
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#2093032 - 07/04/09 10:35 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Bobadohshe]
raddtunes Offline
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Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 608
Loc: vegas
There is a fairly new show at Planet Hollywood in Vegas called "Peepshow," which features a live band. The keyboard player is a Broadway veteran who can read/play anything, but does not do any programming, so I got hired to program all the patches for the show - and put them in order.

I've done jobs like this before, and it usually takes a couple of hours, but Peepshow was in creation for a long time with a larger budget - - I actually billed 80 hours for this.

They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.

For live gigs on my RD-700GX, it's soooo easy to hit sounds or create layers/splits on the fly, I just have one performance called "Gig" that has just about anything I need.

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#2093043 - 07/04/09 10:42 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
Jamie Finstad Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 169
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I use the Master Mode on my S90 & Motif. I try to use only one Master per song by using splits as necessary. We have a couple of medleys that require more than one Master. I set up a Master for each song named by song and in set order. It makes it easy just to step through them quickly. The challenge is getting the Masters into set order for each gig. I found a simple utility called MOMAST that allows me to reorder and rename the Masters for the S90 and original Motif. Reordering the Masters on the S90 or Motif would be just too painful.

Jamie

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#2093051 - 07/04/09 11:09 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: raddtunes]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 5981
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: raddtunes


They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.



What would scare me about that is if this guy truly doesn't know his way around the board, what happens if he accidentally steps on his footswitch twice? Do you just hope he has enough common sense to be able to figure out how to manually scroll back?
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#2093062 - 07/04/09 11:24 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Bobadohshe]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4319
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe
Originally Posted By: raddtunes


They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.



What would scare me about that is if this guy truly doesn't know his way around the board, what happens if he accidentally steps on his footswitch twice? Do you just hope he has enough common sense to be able to figure out how to manually scroll back?

I was thinking the same thing! Even an experienced player could have a whoops moment.
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#2093066 - 07/04/09 11:27 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4319
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman
I posted this in a thread on "wish list" products on another forum...

What I'd really LOVE to have would be an external hardware device designed to send program change data (MSB, LSB, Program #) and typical "master" MIDI controller parameters (i.e., octave shift, pedal assignments, etc.) - to multiple MIDI connected devices with the push of a single button. It would have the following characteristics:

It would have the ability to control a minimum of 8 remote devices.

It would create and store "Performance Setups" - each one containing the definition of a single "multi-device patch" (think Program Change, typical "master" MIDI controller parameters associated with each device being included in the "Setup".

It would have an ample sized LCD screen that displays Setup Name and #.

It would have a dedicated keypad (think 10 key numeric keypad) style input to call up Setup by number (w\enter button - allowing next selection to be staged but not activated (i.e., changes sent) until enter button is pushed).

It would have a number of programmable "preset" keys - to which any Setup # can be assigned for "instant access".
Capacity to store 1,000+ Performance "Setups".

It would support a "Set List" Mode that would allow the user to create a custom list of Setup #s (from any of 1,000+ Performance "Setups") that would be navigated in order - by pressing "Next" and "Previous" buttons. (In "Set List" mode - LCD screen would display a segment of the list .. i.e., current Setup plus the previous 2 Setups and the next 2 on deck Setups - by Setup Name and #).

It would have a Software interface so that the device can be programmed via a USB connected computer. The software would facilitate the creation of each performance Setup - i.e., keyboard entry of values to be transmitted to remote devices, entering of Setup Name text, etc. The software would also provide easy access to the library of Performance "Setups" to facilitate creating and managing "Set Lists". The software would provide "file" management capabilities - allowing the user to store "Setups" and "Setlists" on the PC - and upload/download them to and from the hardware device - essentially allowing the creation of "Setups" and "Setlists" that would be limited only by disk space on the PC to save them.

Programming of voices/patches/parameters remains with the individual MIDI devices in the rig that are being controlled by the "Master". The "Master" centralizes and simplifies controlling the entire rig.


I seem to remember something like this being around a long time ago. I saw this band at a wedding many years ago, probably early/mid 90's, and the keyboard player had a little remote control looking device that dialed in all his stuff. I imagine a midi patch bay could do this type of thing as well.

I was thinking my old MMT8 sequencer could do this too, just program the patch change and channel into a track for each song on the set list, increment to the song and hit play, and it's all done.
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#2093082 - 07/04/09 12:29 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 216
Loc: State of Misery
Take a look at the Mark of the Unicorn, Midi Timepiece. It does not do everything on your list(small LCD) But can handle a lot of it. 8X midi I/O, patch changes, USB interface to set it up. etc... You can program everything from the front panel but it's not something I would want to do on the fly.
Al Coda told me about a better unit out there, but it's only available in Germany.
http://www.miditemp.com/english/products.html

- Karl
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#2093088 - 07/04/09 12:52 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 9339
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I used to use MIDI Timepiece at gigs, but that was back when we still used live MIDI on stage and I had to feed track 10 to the drummer's electronic kit.

Inevitably there'd be a time that I'd forget to set things up properly and there'd be a missing connection or something. It happens in the heat of the gig. I try to keep things simpler these days so there's less to go wrong.

But if you like lots of MIDI routing on stage, the Timepiece AV or the Edirol unit that allows front-panel channel muting, are your best bet (or ordering that one from Germany).

Most other MIDI routers are now USB-only (that is, they must be connected to a USB powering device such as a computer, or they don't work at all).
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#2093161 - 07/05/09 12:06 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Mark Schmieder]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 12785
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I try to avoid patch changes during songs by utilizing splits/layers as much as possible. I have a 61-key and 76-key board. Usually that's enough real estate that I can get all my parts split on the two boards. If a song is sequenced and need patch changes, then the sequence does it for me and I just play. In fact, sometimes I'll do a sequence with nothing but maybe some claps or a couple sound effects, just to have my patch changes going for me. Plus the click keeps our tempo consistant and tight (not that our drummer can't do that on his own rolleyes)

Anyway, so my setup is the Alesis Fusion running all sequences and samples and I play most of my parts on there - mainly because they tend to sound best using a VA engine - and it controls patch changes on my Korg Triton, which I tend to use for most of the piano and organ kind of stuff, plus some strings and such.

Fusion is ALWAYS in song mode, even if it's not sequenced. I just put my patch in a song and don't hit play so I don't have to change modes. If I need to change patches on the Triton or my guitar module, I just hit play on the Fusion and it changes everything for me. Triton stays in Combi mode, no matter what.

Beginning of the night, I go Global>Item>Arrange and put my sequences (or non-sequences) in order of the set list. Takes about 5-10 min, and I do it usually during sound check. So I start with the first song and hit the INC button after each song to go to the next, and if necessary, hit play.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2093181 - 07/05/09 08:14 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: J. Dan]
bloodyMary Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1785
Loc: Israel
Dan, how much time did it take you to program all this? Sending program changes to Triton and the guitar proc. - very cool!

Did you sequence all of it inside the Fusion or use a PC and then upload to Fusion?
_________________________
Stage: MOX6, V-machine, and Roland AX7
Rolls PM351 for IEMs.
Home/recording: Roland FP4, a few guitars

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#2093208 - 07/05/09 12:13 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: DanL]
raddtunes Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 608
Loc: vegas
Originally Posted By: DanL
Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe
Originally Posted By: raddtunes


They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.



What would scare me about that is if this guy truly doesn't know his way around the board, what happens if he accidentally steps on his footswitch twice? Do you just hope he has enough common sense to be able to figure out how to manually scroll back?

I was thinking the same thing! Even an experienced player could have a whoops moment.



This type of mishap is possible, and the player does need to know enough about dialing the data wheel back if this happens. However - in this type of show situation, the player does the exact same routine - 6 nights a week - possibly up to 12 shows per week. This reduces the chance of frequent errors.

Throughout this job I was often being "vibed" that "this is how it's done on Broadway." Wanting to please my client (who was paying me well) - - I always responded to that vibe with the appropriate "ooo" and "ahhhhh".

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#2093222 - 07/05/09 03:42 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: raddtunes]
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
I did a little reading on the MOTU Timepiece unit. Unless I'm not understanding what I'm reading - I don't think it's going to do what I want. I don't want to control complex MIDI routings - I'm looking for a way to send Program Change control commands to multiple MIDI connected devices from a single device - with a single button push - and want an easy to use PC/MAC based user interface to be able to control THAT single device.

If I were to design it ... the panel would look something like this...



In "Setup" mode (the one on the left) - the screen would display the MSB, LSB and Program Change Info of the patch that will be transmitted to each device participating in the "Setup". "Setups" would be accessed by 4 digit code - and sent to the devices being controlled when ENTER is pressed.

In "SetList" mode (the Thumbnail on the right) - the screen would display a Song name and the Setup ID # and Name of the setup I've associated with it. The set list would scroll using the PREV and NEXT buttons - and the selected "Setup" sent to the devices being controled when ENTER is pressed.

The "Instant Access" buttons would simply be a "one touch" preset that immediately sends out the "Setup" that the user assocated with that present button.

The "Setups", "Set Lists" and "Instant Access" preset associations would be created and managed via a PC/MAC software utility - and transferred to the device via a USB connection. Once loaded - the device goes to the gig ... and the PC stays home - sorta like loading your song lists on your iPod.

Decide that you want a combination of patches that you have pre-defined in the unit? No problem - just call it up manually on the device. You can go back to using the device anytime simply by selecting a Setup from within Setup Mode or Set List mode - and pressing Enter.
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The SpaceNorman

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#2093226 - 07/05/09 04:04 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
On Vacation Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12677
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

razz

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#2093234 - 07/05/09 04:37 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: On Vacation]
Mike Warren Offline
Gold Star Recipient
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 1339
Loc: Cairns Australia
Originally Posted By: RABid
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


Unfortunately, life has become more complicated is many ways. I believe there are even synths around now that can play more than one note at a time. Sounds awfully complicated to me. grin
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#2093241 - 07/05/09 05:26 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: On Vacation]
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: RABid
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

razz


The laughter is understandable. Of course back when you and I were getting started we laughed alot too. I remember laughing pretty hard when somebody asked if I could cover a piano part, an organ part, strings and some horn lines - all in the same song.

Life has changed a bit though hasn't it? We've now got "high tech singles" where one guy surrounded with digital toys does it all live in real time.

Selecting a programmed patch number isn't a problem. Selecting several of them - simulaneously - without missing a beat in the middle of a song however can add some challenge.

I don't have a problem selecting a programmed patch number - I'm simply looking for a way to deal selecting patches on multiple devices more quickly and easily.
_________________________
The SpaceNorman

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#2093259 - 07/05/09 07:15 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 4467
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer

Al Coda told me about a better unit out there, but it's only available in Germany.
http://www.miditemp.com/english/products.html

- Karl


Hi Karl !

The link is correct, but the product I use is discontinued,- so itīs not on the website anymore.

The machine I toured with a lot is this:
http://cgi.ebay.de/MIDITEMP-PMM-88-FERNBEDIENUNG-RAM-Speicher-fuer-128-Prog_W0QQitemZ400057622934QQcmdZViewItemQQptZStudioequipment?hash=item5d254ae196&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1229|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

a 8x8 midi matrix/ midi processor w/ 128 preset memory.

What Iīm using is the successor,- PMM88E,- which has a better remote controller (display), a few add. features and more memory (4x128 preset locations in 4 banks ā 128.

which is also included in this product ...
MP88 W (Midi Player, Midi Matrix, Digital Audio Player, Standard MIDI File PLAYER/RRECORDER)

http://cgi.ebay.de/Midiplayer-Miditemp-MP88_W0QQitemZ320392931273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZStudioequipment?hash=item4a98e827c9&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1229|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

Who doesnīt need any midi-player functions should look for the PMM88E, but they are rare and there are many bidders always.

The machine for the very large rigs was the MT-16x,- 16x16 matrix/ processor,- a 2HU unit.

The PMM88E, MP88 and MT-16x could be stacked by a optical device (optional card) called FORNET.
SysEx format here:
http://www.miditemp.com/english/dump.txt

Software update versions are here:
http://www.markusmuziek.nl/miditemp/update.htm

more here:
http://www.miditemp.nl/stats/PMM_88e.php
http://www.miditemp.nl/stats/MT_16x.php
http://www.miditemp.nl/stats/MP_88W.php

support & questions here:
http://www.miditemp.com/english/support.html

I also own a MOTU Midi Timepiece II, but this is a very, very rudimentary machine compared to a Miditemp PMM88, PMM88E, MT16-X and MP88.
With these machines, thereīs no USB and/or computer needed to set īem up,- itīs all done by the remote controller and itīs extremely easy for itīs complexity,- nearly self-explaining.
Once one found out the logic of the remote controllers LED illuminated push buttons, rotary encoder and display messages,- itīs a no-brainer in usage if youīve some knowledge of MIDI and if you know what you want to do. No cryptic HEX or such, itīs all very clear.

Ask support for an english manual...

A.C.

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#2093263 - 07/05/09 07:32 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Bobadohshe]
DanS Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 6534
Loc: Montréal
My S80 usually handles the piano & rhodes sounds. I use Performance mode in my Fantom X7 (16 layers/splits), and use Live Mode to organize the setlists, which are nailed down a day or 2 before the gig.
_________________________
What we record in life, echoes in eternity.

MOXF8, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg.
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#2093284 - 07/05/09 09:57 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 216
Loc: State of Misery
Quote:
I did a little reading on the MOTU Timepiece unit. Unless I'm not understanding what I'm reading - I don't think it's going to do what I want. I don't want to control complex MIDI routings - I'm looking for a way to send Program Change control commands to multiple MIDI connected devices from a single device - with a single button push - and want an easy to use PC/MAC based user interface to be able to control THAT single device.

Nice User Interface Design, I'l take one, How much? thu

Well, you have to dig deep in the manual, but the midi timepiece AV will do patch changes with something they call a midi cannon which will send midi events ( in this case patch changes ) to each midi out. It does more when hooked up to a MAC B.T.W. There are things it won't do when programmed with a PC. And the documentation for PC programming is way too sparse. I can't say I recommend it, but I could not find anything else that worked without dragging a computer along. That is, until I heard about Al's suggestion of the PME88. Eventually I want to move up to one of these.

If you have a computer along on the gig, can't you use a software midi sequencer to do this?

-Karl
_________________________
MPCX, RD-800, Vsynth, Matrix 12

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#2093286 - 07/05/09 10:00 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Al Coda]
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 216
Loc: State of Misery
Hey There Al

thu
_________________________
MPCX, RD-800, Vsynth, Matrix 12

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#2093289 - 07/05/09 10:53 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 216
Loc: State of Misery
One more reason not to go midi timepiece unless you have no other choice.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2042282/MOTU_DISREGARD_FOR_CUSTOMERS#Post2042282
_________________________
MPCX, RD-800, Vsynth, Matrix 12

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#2093313 - 07/06/09 05:13 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: bloodyMary]
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 12785
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: bloodyMary
Dan, how much time did it take you to program all this? Sending program changes to Triton and the guitar proc. - very cool!

Did you sequence all of it inside the Fusion or use a PC and then upload to Fusion?


For the most part, all in the fusion. I had a lot of sequences from past bands already - some done in the triton, some on computer - that I imported, but extensive work was still required in terms of sound programming, patch changes, etc. I already had the fusion in my last band but had not started using it yet, so when I switched bands, I decided that was the time to switch my setup. I had about 2 weeks until we started practicing together and about another 2 weeks before I was playing out. Of course I started out with about 50 songs and have since gotten up to around 80 total. Anything new is solely sequenced in the fusion, with additional sounds from the Triton.

Not entirely ideal, but I can go from song to song with no delay, no matter how complex. And I don't need a pedal board for my guitar.

In my old band, I also controlled the drummer's patches and vocal effects patches. This band our drummer switches them himself, which works better because sometimes he's switching sets at different times than i'm switching for the next song or whatever. And we don't have our own vocal FX in this band - we rely on FOH.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2093343 - 07/06/09 07:32 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 4467
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer

If you have a computer along on the gig, can't you use a software midi sequencer to do thisß

-Karl


If thereīs a computer in a live rig anyway, software like Brainspawn Forte and Cantabile Performer 2.x would do it.
But thereīs always the USB connection and drivers for a USB MIDI interface,- you know.

My experience w/ external hardware is,- use additional hardware (in this/my case a Miditemp),- itīs less Midi jitter and latency.

A.C.

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#2093344 - 07/06/09 07:33 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 4467
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer
Hey There Al

thu


Hi Karl !

What are the plans ? Weather changed here,- itīs all fine actually.
Let me know ...

:-)

A.C.

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#2093358 - 07/06/09 08:17 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz]
wineandkeyz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 606
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
While I get great use of MASTER mode on the Motif and programming sequential program changes, I am curious how others manage multiple patch changes in their set lists.

How many do you have per show and per song? Do you think it gets a bit out of control at times, or is it just par for the course?


It's par for the course. It gets even trickier when you have one "main" band but fill in with several others. I use the Master mode on my S90ES to control the changes on all my keyboards (a Roland VR-760 and Fantom X7). For one of the fill-in bands, I set up a Master (and sometimes 2 or 3) for each song and have them stored in alphabetical order in banks D and E. I can be playing one song, glance at the set list and punch the bank for the next song, which displays the list of programs in that bank. When the first song is finished, I just push the program button for the next song.
_________________________
LIVE: Yamaha S70XS; Roland Jupiter-80; Hammond XK3C & Vent; IEMs, SSV3 or Traynor K4
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#2093360 - 07/06/09 08:24 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: On Vacation]
wineandkeyz Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 606
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: RABid
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

razz


Another old timer here. There was also the enjoyment of constantly tuning the danged things. When I gigged with a Minimoog, I connected its headphone jack to a strobe tuner. Between/during songs, I would switch off the main outputs and check the tuning on the 3 oscillators. And inevitably, just before a signature solo, either the heating or cooling system in the building would kick on and the oscillators would drift in different directions. Fun stuff! thu


Edited by wineandkeyz (07/06/09 08:25 AM)
_________________________
LIVE: Yamaha S70XS; Roland Jupiter-80; Hammond XK3C & Vent; IEMs, SSV3 or Traynor K4
HOME: Yamaha S90ES; Roland Fantom X7; DSI Prophet Rev2-16; Arp Odyssey
QUIK-LOK X STANDS!

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#2093456 - 07/06/09 11:42 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: wineandkeyz]
jarrell Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 280
Loc: Mountain View,CA,UNITED STATES
I use method c) the live switching approach on my Kurzweil PC3 (used to use it on my Roland JV-90). I need the flexibility of this method; I can't imagine using patch chains unless it was a completely planned out show. The PC3 allows you to have up to 16 programs in a setup, and I can freely layer, split, and mute/unmute them as I need, plus I have 9 volume sliders - it is kind of like mixing on the fly. It handles my external MIDI modules as well. I also can switch to another setup in the middle of a song, so there is tons of flexibility.

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#2093467 - 07/06/09 11:57 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: wineandkeyz]
New&Improv Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 2010
Loc: Corvallis, OR
Originally Posted By: wineandkeyz
Another old timer here. There was also the enjoyment of constantly tuning the danged things. When I gigged with a Minimoog, I connected its headphone jack to a strobe tuner. Between/during songs, I would switch off the main outputs and check the tuning on the 3 oscillators. And inevitably, just before a signature solo, either the heating or cooling system in the building would kick on and the oscillators would drift in different directions. Fun stuff! thu


Hey, I just took my Mini to a gig on Saturday and did the same thing! Actually, since it was so hot out, and I was able to set up quite a while in advance and leave it on, tuning was pretty stable by showtime. I plug the headphone out into the tuner, and then from the tuner into the external input for feedback. I love my Mini!
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It's a keeper
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#2093479 - 07/06/09 12:10 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
On Vacation Offline
10k Club

Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12677
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman
The laughter is understandable. Of course back when you and I were getting started we laughed alot too. I remember laughing pretty hard when somebody asked if I could cover a piano part, an organ part, strings and some horn lines - all in the same song.

Life has changed a bit though hasn't it? We've now got "high tech singles" where one guy surrounded with digital toys does it all live in real time. ...



Actually, I had to do that. It got much easier once I got a stack of programmable keyboards. I don't think that music was any less "hi-tech" back then. Producers had a habit of bringing in a lot of extra musicians for recording sessions. It was usually the keyboardist in a coverband that had to cover all those parts as best as possible. On the positive side, it kept me working in good bands. crazy

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#2093556 - 07/06/09 03:54 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer
If you have a computer along on the gig, can't you use a software midi sequencer to do this?


Yes - there are lots of software sequencers that will do it - especially the "set list" mode stuff. Given my druthers, I'd rather go the hardware route - were it available. My issue with software is time. File --> Open --> Scroll --> Select (or whatever multi-layer path the user interface takes you to get there...). Then there's the inevitable inopportune screen saver start ups, display timeouts, move the mouse and then have to visually find it before you can do anything delays, etc. Heck there's even the issue of my old eyes not being able to see the litte PC screens on dark stages.

I use my computer with my keys all the time at home ... but absolutely hate taking it on gigs for a number of reasons (space, setup, boot time, etc.). The laptop at a gig is overkill when compared to what I really want. Worst, is that in the end - it won't really save me any time.

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.
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#2093580 - 07/06/09 05:20 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: wineandkeyz]
rdownton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Toronto, Ontario Canada
I use a midi foot controller (FCB1010 which has 10 banks of 10 programs). I also use it to change patches on my guitar amp as well. It can send patch changes on 2 channels from one pedal.

I do change patches during songs at times so I needed something that could handle multiple changes at once. I've set up banks 1 for set 1, bank 2 for set 2 etc and use those for when I need to make changes during a song. For situations where things change on the fly I've set up a bank for keyboard defaults. Pedal 6 - 10 along the top are defaults - Piano, EP's, Organ, Horns, Strings. The pedals along the bottom 1-5 are for things like turning the leslie on or off, turning on the overdrive on my K4 or default guitar settings so I can get to them fast. The FCB1010 also has two pedals so i use one as expression and the other as volume on my guitar amp.

Hope this makes sense. It took a while to set it up but not that it's done it works great. I can edit the controller on my computer so set changes can be updated fairly easily.
_________________________
Keys: Kurzweil PC3 & PC1se, Alesis QS6.1, Casio PX700,
Guitars: Strat Plus, Les Paul Std, Washburn HB35, Martin DC-16RGTE
Amps: Mackie SRM450, Fender Cyber Twin & Studio 85


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#2093605 - 07/06/09 06:20 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 12785
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.


There is a device that does this, but you'll have to find one on Ebay, and it's a bit cumbersome to set up, but I used to do it that way: The Alesis DataDisk. You can store any MIDI data - patch changes, sysex, complete sequences, whatever, as a song file and MIDI PC#'s will trigger them. The only trick is that you it numbers them in alphabetical order. So the first one in alphabetical order is always PC#0, etc. If you add a song and put it somewhere in the middle alphabetically, then all your PC#'s will increment by one for all the songs after it. The other downside is that it stores on 3.5" floppies which are rapidly becoming obsolete and hard to find, and in fact it uses the low density format (700k or whatever, not 1.4MB). Limit is something like 50 songs.

If you have a numeric keypad on your keyboard, just write the PC# next to each song in the song list. When it comes up, punch in the number, and voila, it sends out everything you want it to on any and all of 16 MIDI channels.

It would be nice if somebody came up with a modern version of that, where you could plug it into your PC via USB to program the changes and/or dump sysex, or SMF's, and assign PC#'s the way you want. Also, have more storage, and maybe 2 or more MIDI outs.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2093615 - 07/06/09 06:33 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: On Vacation]
MusicWorkz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: RABid
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

razz


I can imagine how humorous it must be cool. The premise is a bit laughable, but that is the price we pay with progress covering different synths, pads, rhodes, organ and strings at the same time in every song for a multi-song set.

I am just glad I haven't had to lug a B3 on my back every week, contend with dirty power messing with the tonwheels or drifting tuning for cold synths thu.
_________________________
Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32

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#2093619 - 07/06/09 06:37 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
MusicWorkz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2213
Loc: Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman




There is a market for this. You might want to patent this and pitch the idea to a company like A.R.T.
_________________________
Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32

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#2093642 - 07/06/09 07:58 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
jarrell Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 280
Loc: Mountain View,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.


I know it doesn't help now, but that is one thing OMS Setup, OMS Studio Patches and the Studio 5 did back in the early 90's - it was great. You could change a patch on the Studio 5, in Vision, or on a synth that you designated as the "studio" channel, and it would change to a new Studio patch, which could include new bank/patches for every device in your setup, plus MIDI routing and processing. I think Yamaha has something like OMS Setup now, but more limited.

OMS and the Studio 5, or Opcode for that matter, never made it to OS X.

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#2094092 - 07/07/09 11:48 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman]
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 216
Loc: State of Misery
Quote:
Yes - there are lots of software sequencers that will do it - especially the "set list" mode stuff. Given my druthers, I'd rather go the hardware route - were it available. My issue with software is time. File --> Open --> Scroll --> Select (or whatever multi-layer path the user interface takes you to get there...). Then there's the inevitable inopportune screen saver start ups, display timeouts, move the mouse and then have to visually find it before you can do anything delays, etc. Heck there's even the issue of my old eyes not being able to see the litte PC screens on dark stages.

I use my computer with my keys all the time at home ... but absolutely hate taking it on gigs for a number of reasons (space, setup, boot time, etc.). The laptop at a gig is overkill when compared to what I really want. Worst, is that in the end - it won't really save me any time.

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.


I am with you on all of this. I know a lot of people use laptops on stage these days, but they are just not tough enough for road use IMO, Plus they have a habit getting swiped. I know of a guy who had his patch changes setup on his laptop, and backed over it with his car in a hurry to get to the gig. I understand this was a rough night for him.

Anyway, I have been looking for something like this for some time. It seems these days the focus of the music industry is on
computer solutions for everything. Sadly not too much emphisis on hardware only solutions.

- Karl
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#2094120 - 07/08/09 04:40 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 4467
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer

I know a lot of people use laptops on stage these days, but they are just not tough enough for road use IMO,...


Thatīs true !
The question is and was,- whatīs tough and reliable enough for the road.
The answer is: Nothing is and was reliable enough.

Even the best and "built like a tank" pieces of gear, especially instruments, werenīt and arenīt made for touring usage in 1st place. Itīs all mass products and most musicians donīt do concert touring, they are the minority and the manufacturers know this.

Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer

I know of a guy who had his patch changes setup on his laptop, and backed over it with his car in a hurry to get to the gig. I understand this was a rough night for him.


He, he ... :-)
Imagine what can happen if you donīt transport your gear yourself, in opposite it travels in one of the tourtrucks over the country for 2 month and is always in the hands of crewguys and local stage hands.
I remember times, I got calls all day while being in the hotel after shows, reporting whatīs damaged by mishandling and treatment by "technicians" even the gear was packed in cases and racked.
Most risky is packing/unpacking into or out of cases and wireing.
Small parts/items will fall off a stand or a riser, sometimes off the stage,- itīs just only a question of time.
A laptop/notebook is such a item.
A portable computer is manufactured for everyone.
A hardware midi-processor/matrix, incl. features only pros really need on stage, was never made for everyone.
Also all the "racked" midi-interface gear ever made to connect w/ computers wasnīt and isnīt pro gear for live usage, itīs for home- and pro-studio DAWs, fixed installations, not traveling and it always comes w/ a very reduced feature set in standalone mode.
If this is used by pros, itīs just only by reason thereīs nothing other available or by lack of knowledge itīs existing somewhere.
The best MIDI matrix ever made, just only a 16x16 matrix w/ 32 preset memory and Midi-Prg.-Changes per channel was the Sycologic M16/M16R and the M16X output expander,- later there was a M48,- 16 Midi-Ins by 48 Midi-Outs.
The best processor and 8x8 matrix was and is the Miditemp PMM88E.

Thereīs nothing comparable, especially not in a combination of both,- and all this units are made for the live performing keyboardist and for the days of hard touring only,- but are usable in any studio environment too and up today if much outboard midi gear is existing.

Originally Posted By: Karl Schmeer

It seems these days the focus of the music industry is on
computer solutions for everything. Sadly not too much emphisis on hardware only solutions.- Karl


Right!
Itīs simply much cheaper to design a software product offering "lots" of features and in the end, itīs promises only compared to the hardware devices from the past, especially regarding products for midi-handling.

A.C.

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#2975181 - 02/11/19 05:16 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Al Coda]
nursers Offline
10k Club

Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 10525
Loc: Australia
Ok this is a huge dredge up from the past but I found the thread interesting for both how much has changed but also how little some aspects have changed.

Mainstage certainly wasn't around then (was it?) - the set list modes on the more recent boards have improved too but some of the same hassles still remain wink
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#2975203 - 02/11/19 07:52 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: nursers]
CowboyNQ Online   content
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/14/15
Posts: 1076
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Man I am so low-tech in this regard it's embarrassing.

I do all my patch changes manually simply by saving sounds in "favourites" and recalling them as I need them by pressing a button (or touching a screen).

As documented elsewhere in these forums I recently had the chance to play a Kronos live for the first time and must say I really did enjoy the set list mode (and the tech support David).

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#2975264 - 02/12/19 04:48 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: CowboyNQ]
CEB Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 13216
The Kronos laughs at this thread.
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"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

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#2975307 - 02/12/19 08:16 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: CEB]
MikeyP Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/11
Posts: 26
OnSong triggers all my patch changes to all my iPad Synths AND shows me the lyrics, song notes smile

If you have an iPad I highly recommend MIDI'ing it up to your hardware synth and using it.

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#2975314 - 02/12/19 08:44 AM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MikeyP]
The Real MC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 5432
Loc: Secluded Tranquil NY Wine Coun...
I will never depend on a laptop or mobile in my gigging rig.

My song configurations are done with my Kurzweil MIDIBoard. All my synth/rompler/clonewheel/effects are configured there - MIDI program #, volume, filter settings, effects - EVERYTHING. Even the MIDI matrix patchbay. Press one button and I am ready to play, easy to use more than one configuration in the same song. Some serious power there.

As a systems engineer for a day job, I quickly learned to use templates. Pre-planning is the key.

There's some mid level configuration too. Due to the 80s repertoire we play, I depend on the Andromeda a lot. I need to pull off a lot of analog sounds during any one song using the Mix mode to configure splits, layers, volumes, output routings, etc. The master controller sends a sysex string to put the Andromeda in Mix mode, then sends the program number so the correct Mix setup is ready.

The configuration management is crucial. I maintain a spreadsheet to keep track of my configurations because much of the MIDI setups gets re-used and I need to find unused ones for new songs. The spreadsheet lists the song and artist, then the master controller patch # containing all the configurations. Lot of work, but well worth it.

The set list changes often. I bring a printout of my song configuration spreadsheet to the show with me, and I write the master controller patch numbers on the songs on the set list.

I have yet to find a master MIDI controller as comprehensive as the MIDIBoard. They got it so right back in 1986, and today there isn't anything that can come close to it. It would be real nice if that kind of control were available in a module.

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#2975364 - 02/12/19 12:07 PM Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: CowboyNQ]
rockinredeye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 261
Loc: Shreveport, LA
I second the suggestion of a Kurzweil. Any of the PC3 series can do two things I use all the time.
1) Every Setup (multi) can have up to 16 channels/instruments and can send out MIDI changes to external modules on each channel. If you have multiple Setups per song, put them next to each other and move up or down to the neighboring Setup with a foot pedal.
2) There is a Quick Access mode that holds 10 Setups per page. I can type in 45 Setups at a gig in about 10 minutes, though I prefer to do this at home. I can do this because each Setup has a 3-digit number which I have in a list on paper. I'm just typing in 45 3-digit numbers. Mine happen to be numbered between 150-400, and no we don't have a 250 song list!
I don't use externals anymore, but you could have up to 16 if you wanted.


Edited by rockinredeye (02/12/19 12:08 PM)
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