Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Set-list patch changes #2092903
07/03/09 11:28 PM
07/03/09 11:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Unlike some of the power players around here (no names cool) who gig an entire set without changing instruments/patches (i.e. piano, rhodes et. al and/or organ), I am at a point where I can go thru one or two patch changes PER SONG (the max currently is four including intro and outro).

While I get great use of MASTER mode on the Motif and programming sequential program changes, I am curious how others manage multiple patch changes in their set lists.

How many do you have per show and per song? Do you think it gets a bit out of control at times, or is it just par for the course?


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
KC Island
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz] #2092905
07/03/09 11:40 PM
07/03/09 11:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 7,370
New England
JerryA Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
JerryA  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 7,370
New England
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
While I get great use of MASTER mode on the Motif and programming sequential program changes, I am curious how others manage multiple patch changes in their set lists.


Great timing, as I am attempting to change my approach. I have done ...

a) the sequential master keyboard approach (using a master keyboard which changes everything with a pedal increment). Typically 1-2 masters per song.
b) The sequential main keyboard approach (the main keyboard increments, but other keys remain the same (piano remains a piano, B3 remains B3 etc) unless I tweak them by hand. Typically 1-2 patches/performances/mixes per song.
c) the live switching approach (Rolands in performance mode allow you toggle parts in and out of the mix on the fly) One performance per song.

Currently I am preparing to do some improvised stuff with a drummer, so I am thinking of very independent instruments. S90ES in mix/song mode to allow on the fly switching. One or two other synths as standbys to fill in gaps with pre-programmed drones or bass patterns. Ableton and a Korg Kaoss with some loops/found sound. In this context it doesn't pay to organize sequentially but in timbre families. I think.

Hoping this helps,

Jerry

Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: JerryA] #2092908
07/04/09 12:00 AM
07/04/09 12:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,532
San Francisco Bay Area
Mark Schmieder Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Mark Schmieder  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,532
San Francisco Bay Area
When available, Master Mode, so I can put the performance splits in set order for each gig. This speeds up song transitions.

I sold my MOTIF and use the CS6x these past couple of years. 61 keys makes it harder to cover four patches per split (per song), and it has no Master Mode, so I have to write the letter-coded hexadecimal patch number on the set list next to each song as I simply can't remember that many out of 68 or so songs.

I'm looking forward to exploring what the Kurzweil PC3X has to offer in regards to gig setup master lists, as well as split points (eight would be great as four is often not enough).

I refuse to switch patches during a song; I set up all patch changes within a keyboard split and save it with the song name.

When we had a full-time keyboardist, he often messed up at gigs because the low light and/or shadows made it too hard for him to find his patch change during the song. That taught me a lesson.


Eugenio Upright, 60th P-Bass, Select J-Bass, Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, Viking Bari
Select Strat, Select Tele, Am Pro JM, LP 57 Gold Top, RS520T, T486-RB, ES295, PM2, EXL1
WX5, XK1c, Voyager
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Mark Schmieder] #2092915
07/04/09 12:28 AM
07/04/09 12:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Tusker, I am pretty much sticking with your (a). The Motif is great for that and it woks well. I am starting to bump my head against keeping everything confined to a single bank of 16 even though there are patches that can do double duty-I don't want to have to skip back and forth looking for them. Every patch is programmed with the song name and key signature as its master patch name so I don't have to guess if it is the right set-up for a particular piece.

Mark, it's 76-keys for me or nothing at this point thu! No way I would try this with 61 anymore. I also ran into lighting issues playing outside-the sunlight made it almost impossible to see the screen at any angle (even with a covered stage). Luckily it wasn't a long set to deal with.


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz] #2092922
07/04/09 12:48 AM
07/04/09 12:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member
SpaceNorman  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
I'm using my CP300 as my primary controller these days. I use it to control pretty much all patch changes - which means in performance mode - a single button push sets up CP300 internal engine, my RD700SX and my Motif ES rack unit.

The CP300 support 4 banks of 16 parformance patches active on the board. The beautiful thing is however that you can save any current group (the 4 band x 16 performance patches) of patches as a Performance File. Performance Files (the 4 x 16 groups) easily load in and out of memory.

These days I have a "performance file" for each project I play in. I've gone so far as to arrange my voices in the order that I play them in each set ... Set #1 in Bank A, Set #2 in Bank B, etc. If I needed more - I could simply create a "performance file" for each set.

The ONLY thing that I really, really, really wish Yamaha would provide is a software interface for working with the CP300 (the equivalent of the Studio Manager Software provides a GUI interface to the Motif). Such an interface would make organizing Performance patch data an absolute snap. Unfortunately, according the the Yamaha Tech folks - such an interface isn't available. Bummer.

Last edited by SpaceNorman; 07/04/09 12:51 AM.

The SpaceNorman
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2092923
07/04/09 12:57 AM
07/04/09 12:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman


The ONLY thing that I really, really, really wish Yamaha would provide is a software interface for working with the CP300 (the equivalent of the Studio Manager Software provides a GUI interface to the Motif). Such an interface would make organizing Performance patch data an absolute snap. Unfortunately, according the the Yamaha Tech folks - such an interface isn't available. Bummer.


Even with Studio Manager, the gripe is essentially the same. The editor/"librarian" software for the Motif is ONLY good for accessing voice patches, but not performance or master patches. THAT logic makes entirely no sense at all. Let's forget about programming for the moment, too-I just want to be able to shuffle around locations as need be without copying/overwriting/moving/copying/saving every time I want to set up a new playlist.


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz] #2092965
07/04/09 08:27 AM
07/04/09 08:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member
SpaceNorman  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
Even with Studio Manager, the gripe is essentially the same. The editor/"librarian" software for the Motif is ONLY good for accessing voice patches, but not performance or master patches.


I didn't realize that! I've played with Studio Manager a little ... but not enough to say I really know it. I tend to be a preset jockey - and with the exception of playing on the periphery (i.e., MIDI channel selections, effect settings, pedal assignments, etc.) - I typically don't do much with voice settings.

It sounds like our wish list is pretty similar in terms of what we want from a software interface! Heck, I'd be happy if I could just type in the patch name using a real keyboard instead of having to step through 254 ACSII characters for each position in the name field!


The SpaceNorman
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2092966
07/04/09 08:52 AM
07/04/09 08:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,785
Israel
bloodyMary Offline
Platinum Member
bloodyMary  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,785
Israel
Heh. I sometimes have 7 patch changes in a song, where each patch is a complex split/layer with all kinds of real time controllers. Ordering patches in incremental order and stepping through 'em with a foot pedal works best for me.


Stage: MOX6, V-machine, and Roland AX7
Rolls PM351 for IEMs.
Home/recording: Roland FP4, a few guitars
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2092984
07/04/09 10:58 AM
07/04/09 10:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman

It sounds like our wish list is pretty similar in terms of what we want from a software interface! Heck, I'd be happy if I could just type in the patch name using a real keyboard instead of having to step through 254 ACSII characters for each position in the name field!


SN, some of your wish is here at least. The latest versions beyond the original OS for the Motif XS DOES include functionality to hook up a USB keyboard to enter names and such. I don't bother with it though.


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: bloodyMary] #2092985
07/04/09 11:00 AM
07/04/09 11:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: bloodyMary
Heh. I sometimes have 7 patch changes in a song, where each patch is a complex split/layer with all kinds of real time controllers. Ordering patches in incremental order and stepping through 'em with a foot pedal works best for me.


I would lose my mind if any of our songs had seven patch changes...lol.


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz] #2092988
07/04/09 11:04 AM
07/04/09 11:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,328
DE
DanL Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
DanL  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,328
DE
We change our set list all the time so putting them in order before each gig would be a monumental task for me. And what do you do when you have to make an on the fly change to the list, like a request or something?

I make the set lists in excel, so on mine, I list out the patches I need for each keyboard for each song. While I'm playing, I'll glance at the next song and see what I need to call up and change patches ahead of time where I can, and get the S90ES ready by hitting the bank button so when the song ends all I need to do is hit the patch number for the next song, and off we go.


Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1
Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6
www.bksband.com
www.echoesrocks.com
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: DanL] #2092990
07/04/09 11:15 AM
07/04/09 11:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
You are gigging on a whole other level. We don't take requests, but when the singer deviates from the set, we basically go into traditional gospel default which means I end up playing organ behind the piano-definitely not where I like being since I am a keyboardist cool.


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz] #2092992
07/04/09 11:23 AM
07/04/09 11:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member
SpaceNorman  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
Originally Posted By: MusicWorkz
SN, some of your wish is here at least. The latest versions beyond the original OS for the Motif XS DOES include functionality to hook up a USB keyboard to enter names and such.


Unfortunately - I'm looking for that sort of functionality when working with my CP300 (which is what I'm using as my "master" controller). When I wrote Yamaha asking about any sort of software interface - I was told the only way to change anything was via the buttons on the CP300 itself.

Bummer!


The SpaceNorman
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2092993
07/04/09 11:41 AM
07/04/09 11:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
MusicWorkz Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
MusicWorkz  Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,213
Philadelphia,PA,UNITED STATES
I know, it does help your situation now, but maybe it will help Motifate you thu...


Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: MusicWorkz] #2093002
07/04/09 12:04 PM
07/04/09 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,424
Vermont, USA
frogmonkey Offline
Platinum Member
frogmonkey  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,424
Vermont, USA
I often do a lot of patch changes in a tune, sometimes none. I can't plan in out in advance, though, because set lists are always changing. And we usually do a few impromptu freak-outs and "dub" sections which is where I do most of my weirdness.

So, I don't do anything fancy-- I just reach over and change the patch on the keyboard. It means I have to remember where my patches are, which I sometimes fail to do with new patches.

I keep my Roland Fantom in patch mode. I use the favorites and I have the 16 pads set up to change patches as well.

The PEK is easy to change patches with it's numerical keypad, assuming I can remember where the patch is.

NE3- of course it's easy to change patches, and I'll often switch between rhodes and organ for a chorus.

Microkorg, too... just turn the dial and hit the a/b button.

Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: frogmonkey] #2093005
07/04/09 12:27 PM
07/04/09 12:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member
SpaceNorman  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
I posted this in a thread on "wish list" products on another forum...

What I'd really LOVE to have would be an external hardware device designed to send program change data (MSB, LSB, Program #) and typical "master" MIDI controller parameters (i.e., octave shift, pedal assignments, etc.) - to multiple MIDI connected devices with the push of a single button. It would have the following characteristics:

It would have the ability to control a minimum of 8 remote devices.

It would create and store "Performance Setups" - each one containing the definition of a single "multi-device patch" (think Program Change, typical "master" MIDI controller parameters associated with each device being included in the "Setup".

It would have an ample sized LCD screen that displays Setup Name and #.

It would have a dedicated keypad (think 10 key numeric keypad) style input to call up Setup by number (w\enter button - allowing next selection to be staged but not activated (i.e., changes sent) until enter button is pushed).

It would have a number of programmable "preset" keys - to which any Setup # can be assigned for "instant access".
Capacity to store 1,000+ Performance "Setups".

It would support a "Set List" Mode that would allow the user to create a custom list of Setup #s (from any of 1,000+ Performance "Setups") that would be navigated in order - by pressing "Next" and "Previous" buttons. (In "Set List" mode - LCD screen would display a segment of the list .. i.e., current Setup plus the previous 2 Setups and the next 2 on deck Setups - by Setup Name and #).

It would have a Software interface so that the device can be programmed via a USB connected computer. The software would facilitate the creation of each performance Setup - i.e., keyboard entry of values to be transmitted to remote devices, entering of Setup Name text, etc. The software would also provide easy access to the library of Performance "Setups" to facilitate creating and managing "Set Lists". The software would provide "file" management capabilities - allowing the user to store "Setups" and "Setlists" on the PC - and upload/download them to and from the hardware device - essentially allowing the creation of "Setups" and "Setlists" that would be limited only by disk space on the PC to save them.

Programming of voices/patches/parameters remains with the individual MIDI devices in the rig that are being controlled by the "Master". The "Master" centralizes and simplifies controlling the entire rig.


The SpaceNorman
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2093028
07/04/09 02:14 PM
07/04/09 02:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,042
San Diego / Los Angeles
Bobadohshe Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Bobadohshe  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,042
San Diego / Los Angeles
In a perfect world, setlists are set a day or two beforehand and the setlist never gets altered and nobody ever sits in.

In the world that I gig in, that never ever is the case. I love the idea of programming everything to the last patch change and having incremental masters. If I were touring with Mariah Carey or Madonna, doubtless that would be the way to go.

For RnB gigs that I do however, I don't have it setup in a master situation - even if I'm using 2 Motifs which is often the case. I uses both voices and performances - sometimes even 2 performances per song on the Motif XS, but often just a voice or two on each keyboard, and that is usually quite sufficient for a tune. I don't have the patches in order of the setlist, I just have a working memory of where they are or at least the 'neighborhood' they are in so I can get there quickly enough. 1/2 the songs use the same rhodes, so I don't want to waste bank space by having a rhodes patch every 3 patches. I do name the patches according to the song they are used for, or at least the first song they are used for when I program the patch. I have 'Jill Rhodes' which is a rhodes I use for almost everything, but I programmed it originally for a Jill Scott song. Or 'Getaway lead' which is a synth patch for the break on EWF's getaway. I might use that patch on another song but I know that it's the 'Getaway lead' that I'm using.

When some of these cats want to sit in, I always ask 'what do you need?' a rhodes on the bottom and a clav on top or something like that will be the response. Having my keys independent and switchable makes it easier to dial up the patches on the respective boards, and then we're cruising.

It's not ideal, but it's worked for me over the years.


Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37

My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section
https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Bobadohshe] #2093032
07/04/09 02:35 PM
07/04/09 02:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
vegas
R
raddtunes Offline
Gold Member
raddtunes  Offline
Gold Member
R

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
vegas
There is a fairly new show at Planet Hollywood in Vegas called "Peepshow," which features a live band. The keyboard player is a Broadway veteran who can read/play anything, but does not do any programming, so I got hired to program all the patches for the show - and put them in order.

I've done jobs like this before, and it usually takes a couple of hours, but Peepshow was in creation for a long time with a larger budget - - I actually billed 80 hours for this.

They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.

For live gigs on my RD-700GX, it's soooo easy to hit sounds or create layers/splits on the fly, I just have one performance called "Gig" that has just about anything I need.

Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2093043
07/04/09 02:42 PM
07/04/09 02:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 169
Calgary, Alberta
J
Jamie Finstad Offline
Senior Member
Jamie Finstad  Offline
Senior Member
J

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 169
Calgary, Alberta
I use the Master Mode on my S90 & Motif. I try to use only one Master per song by using splits as necessary. We have a couple of medleys that require more than one Master. I set up a Master for each song named by song and in set order. It makes it easy just to step through them quickly. The challenge is getting the Masters into set order for each gig. I found a simple utility called MOMAST that allows me to reorder and rename the Masters for the S90 and original Motif. Reordering the Masters on the S90 or Motif would be just too painful.

Jamie

Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: raddtunes] #2093051
07/04/09 03:09 PM
07/04/09 03:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,042
San Diego / Los Angeles
Bobadohshe Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Bobadohshe  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,042
San Diego / Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: raddtunes


They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.



What would scare me about that is if this guy truly doesn't know his way around the board, what happens if he accidentally steps on his footswitch twice? Do you just hope he has enough common sense to be able to figure out how to manually scroll back?


Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37

My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section
https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Bobadohshe] #2093062
07/04/09 03:24 PM
07/04/09 03:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,328
DE
DanL Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
DanL  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,328
DE
Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe
Originally Posted By: raddtunes


They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.



What would scare me about that is if this guy truly doesn't know his way around the board, what happens if he accidentally steps on his footswitch twice? Do you just hope he has enough common sense to be able to figure out how to manually scroll back?

I was thinking the same thing! Even an experienced player could have a whoops moment.


Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1
Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6
www.bksband.com
www.echoesrocks.com
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2093066
07/04/09 03:27 PM
07/04/09 03:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,328
DE
DanL Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
DanL  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,328
DE
Originally Posted By: SpaceNorman
I posted this in a thread on "wish list" products on another forum...

What I'd really LOVE to have would be an external hardware device designed to send program change data (MSB, LSB, Program #) and typical "master" MIDI controller parameters (i.e., octave shift, pedal assignments, etc.) - to multiple MIDI connected devices with the push of a single button. It would have the following characteristics:

It would have the ability to control a minimum of 8 remote devices.

It would create and store "Performance Setups" - each one containing the definition of a single "multi-device patch" (think Program Change, typical "master" MIDI controller parameters associated with each device being included in the "Setup".

It would have an ample sized LCD screen that displays Setup Name and #.

It would have a dedicated keypad (think 10 key numeric keypad) style input to call up Setup by number (w\enter button - allowing next selection to be staged but not activated (i.e., changes sent) until enter button is pushed).

It would have a number of programmable "preset" keys - to which any Setup # can be assigned for "instant access".
Capacity to store 1,000+ Performance "Setups".

It would support a "Set List" Mode that would allow the user to create a custom list of Setup #s (from any of 1,000+ Performance "Setups") that would be navigated in order - by pressing "Next" and "Previous" buttons. (In "Set List" mode - LCD screen would display a segment of the list .. i.e., current Setup plus the previous 2 Setups and the next 2 on deck Setups - by Setup Name and #).

It would have a Software interface so that the device can be programmed via a USB connected computer. The software would facilitate the creation of each performance Setup - i.e., keyboard entry of values to be transmitted to remote devices, entering of Setup Name text, etc. The software would also provide easy access to the library of Performance "Setups" to facilitate creating and managing "Set Lists". The software would provide "file" management capabilities - allowing the user to store "Setups" and "Setlists" on the PC - and upload/download them to and from the hardware device - essentially allowing the creation of "Setups" and "Setlists" that would be limited only by disk space on the PC to save them.

Programming of voices/patches/parameters remains with the individual MIDI devices in the rig that are being controlled by the "Master". The "Master" centralizes and simplifies controlling the entire rig.


I seem to remember something like this being around a long time ago. I saw this band at a wedding many years ago, probably early/mid 90's, and the keyboard player had a little remote control looking device that dialed in all his stuff. I imagine a midi patch bay could do this type of thing as well.

I was thinking my old MMT8 sequencer could do this too, just program the patch change and channel into a track for each song on the set list, increment to the song and hit play, and it's all done.


Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1
Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6
www.bksband.com
www.echoesrocks.com
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2093082
07/04/09 04:29 PM
07/04/09 04:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 216
State of Misery
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member
Karl Schmeer  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 216
State of Misery
Take a look at the Mark of the Unicorn, Midi Timepiece. It does not do everything on your list(small LCD) But can handle a lot of it. 8X midi I/O, patch changes, USB interface to set it up. etc... You can program everything from the front panel but it's not something I would want to do on the fly.
Al Coda told me about a better unit out there, but it's only available in Germany.
http://www.miditemp.com/english/products.html

- Karl


MPCX, RD-800, Vsynth, Matrix 12
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Karl Schmeer] #2093088
07/04/09 04:52 PM
07/04/09 04:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,532
San Francisco Bay Area
Mark Schmieder Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Mark Schmieder  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,532
San Francisco Bay Area
I used to use MIDI Timepiece at gigs, but that was back when we still used live MIDI on stage and I had to feed track 10 to the drummer's electronic kit.

Inevitably there'd be a time that I'd forget to set things up properly and there'd be a missing connection or something. It happens in the heat of the gig. I try to keep things simpler these days so there's less to go wrong.

But if you like lots of MIDI routing on stage, the Timepiece AV or the Edirol unit that allows front-panel channel muting, are your best bet (or ordering that one from Germany).

Most other MIDI routers are now USB-only (that is, they must be connected to a USB powering device such as a computer, or they don't work at all).


Eugenio Upright, 60th P-Bass, Select J-Bass, Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, Viking Bari
Select Strat, Select Tele, Am Pro JM, LP 57 Gold Top, RS520T, T486-RB, ES295, PM2, EXL1
WX5, XK1c, Voyager
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: Mark Schmieder] #2093161
07/05/09 04:06 AM
07/05/09 04:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,109
St. Louis, MO
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
J. Dan  Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,109
St. Louis, MO
I try to avoid patch changes during songs by utilizing splits/layers as much as possible. I have a 61-key and 76-key board. Usually that's enough real estate that I can get all my parts split on the two boards. If a song is sequenced and need patch changes, then the sequence does it for me and I just play. In fact, sometimes I'll do a sequence with nothing but maybe some claps or a couple sound effects, just to have my patch changes going for me. Plus the click keeps our tempo consistant and tight (not that our drummer can't do that on his own rolleyes)

Anyway, so my setup is the Alesis Fusion running all sequences and samples and I play most of my parts on there - mainly because they tend to sound best using a VA engine - and it controls patch changes on my Korg Triton, which I tend to use for most of the piano and organ kind of stuff, plus some strings and such.

Fusion is ALWAYS in song mode, even if it's not sequenced. I just put my patch in a song and don't hit play so I don't have to change modes. If I need to change patches on the Triton or my guitar module, I just hit play on the Fusion and it changes everything for me. Triton stays in Combi mode, no matter what.

Beginning of the night, I go Global>Item>Arrange and put my sequences (or non-sequences) in order of the set list. Takes about 5-10 min, and I do it usually during sound check. So I start with the first song and hit the INC button after each song to go to the next, and if necessary, hit play.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: J. Dan] #2093181
07/05/09 12:14 PM
07/05/09 12:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,785
Israel
bloodyMary Offline
Platinum Member
bloodyMary  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,785
Israel
Dan, how much time did it take you to program all this? Sending program changes to Triton and the guitar proc. - very cool!

Did you sequence all of it inside the Fusion or use a PC and then upload to Fusion?


Stage: MOX6, V-machine, and Roland AX7
Rolls PM351 for IEMs.
Home/recording: Roland FP4, a few guitars
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: DanL] #2093208
07/05/09 04:13 PM
07/05/09 04:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
vegas
R
raddtunes Offline
Gold Member
raddtunes  Offline
Gold Member
R

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 608
vegas
Originally Posted By: DanL
Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe
Originally Posted By: raddtunes


They bought a Motiff XS8. I was tempted at first to use Master mode, but stuck with putting a long list of performances together, and in order for them in performance mode. Within one song, there were up to 8 different programs, but you often repeat the same patch, or go back and forth between two. The easiest way to do this - I think - is for the player to use a footswitch, and keeping patch changing forward - with a memory location for each change. It worked out well, and was a fun job.



What would scare me about that is if this guy truly doesn't know his way around the board, what happens if he accidentally steps on his footswitch twice? Do you just hope he has enough common sense to be able to figure out how to manually scroll back?

I was thinking the same thing! Even an experienced player could have a whoops moment.



This type of mishap is possible, and the player does need to know enough about dialing the data wheel back if this happens. However - in this type of show situation, the player does the exact same routine - 6 nights a week - possibly up to 12 shows per week. This reduces the chance of frequent errors.

Throughout this job I was often being "vibed" that "this is how it's done on Broadway." Wanting to please my client (who was paying me well) - - I always responded to that vibe with the appropriate "ooo" and "ahhhhh".

Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: raddtunes] #2093222
07/05/09 07:42 PM
07/05/09 07:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
SpaceNorman Offline
Platinum Member
SpaceNorman  Offline
Platinum Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,308
Michigan
I did a little reading on the MOTU Timepiece unit. Unless I'm not understanding what I'm reading - I don't think it's going to do what I want. I don't want to control complex MIDI routings - I'm looking for a way to send Program Change control commands to multiple MIDI connected devices from a single device - with a single button push - and want an easy to use PC/MAC based user interface to be able to control THAT single device.

If I were to design it ... the panel would look something like this...



In "Setup" mode (the one on the left) - the screen would display the MSB, LSB and Program Change Info of the patch that will be transmitted to each device participating in the "Setup". "Setups" would be accessed by 4 digit code - and sent to the devices being controlled when ENTER is pressed.

In "SetList" mode (the Thumbnail on the right) - the screen would display a Song name and the Setup ID # and Name of the setup I've associated with it. The set list would scroll using the PREV and NEXT buttons - and the selected "Setup" sent to the devices being controled when ENTER is pressed.

The "Instant Access" buttons would simply be a "one touch" preset that immediately sends out the "Setup" that the user assocated with that present button.

The "Setups", "Set Lists" and "Instant Access" preset associations would be created and managed via a PC/MAC software utility - and transferred to the device via a USB connection. Once loaded - the device goes to the gig ... and the PC stays home - sorta like loading your song lists on your iPod.

Decide that you want a combination of patches that you have pre-defined in the unit? No problem - just call it up manually on the device. You can go back to using the device anytime simply by selecting a Setup from within Setup Mode or Set List mode - and pressing Enter.


The SpaceNorman
Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: SpaceNorman] #2093226
07/05/09 08:04 PM
07/05/09 08:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,762
R
RABid Offline
10k Club
RABid  Offline
10k Club
R

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,762
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

razz

Re: Set-list patch changes [Re: RABid] #2093234
07/05/09 08:37 PM
07/05/09 08:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,345
Cairns Australia
Mike Warren Offline
Gold Star Recipient
Mike Warren  Offline
Gold Star Recipient
Platinum Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,345
Cairns Australia
Originally Posted By: RABid
I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...


Unfortunately, life has become more complicated is many ways. I believe there are even synths around now that can play more than one note at a time. Sounds awfully complicated to me. grin


DigitalFakeBook Free chord/lyric display software for windows.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Dave Bryce, Stephen Fortner 

 
   
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1