Have you ever played a cocktail version of any Michael Jackson tune? I have never heard any song of his played as a nice cocktail piano ballad.

Also, did he ever write his own songs? I always assumed he performed songs others had written or that there were ghost writers.

Yea, I use to do "I can't help it" from Off the Wall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klja3RBVXis

"Ben." Only people of a certain age recognize it, but those few that do often make a crack about how funny it is that it's about a rat.

Larry.

"I Can't Help It" is by Stevie Wonder
It's in New Real Book Vol 3 - Chuck Sher

What about the one(s) that Miles Davis did in the 80's? Sorry I don't recall the name.

Human Nature

Although Gordy/West/Davis/Hutch wrote it, the most poignant IMO is "I'll Be There." I've played it the last couple of nights & it resonates.

Human Nature
Rock With You
Lady In My Life
She's Out Of My Life
Baby Be Mine
Man In The Mirror
Thriller

I believe Michael's writing credits are genuine. The songs he's credited for (Billie Jean, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, Wanna Be Startin' Something, Another Part Of Me, Bad) all have a distinctive rhythm that could only be MJ.

Me too, back in early 80's! Maybe I should dust off my old chart of that, and play it tonight.

I'm not privy to anything but would guess he had help with realizing those also...maybe not.

Those albums are all MJ. Even Q says so. And you can tell, Q's own albums sound very different. Sophisticated, but very safe and not daring.
Mike brings the youth and pizzaz. I have a recording of MJ's home studio demo of "Billy Jean". The whole thing is there, but rough.
He wrote a lot of his own songs, including some of the biggest hits.


Don't stop til you get enough, Working Day and Night, Wanna be startin somethin, The Girl is mine, Beat it, Billy Jean and most of the songs on the Bad and Dangerous albums were written by Mike.

I used to do instrumental versions of "Lady in my life" and "Human nature" with my trio.

Many of his songs had very affecting melodies & not just the ballads, so they could stand on their own as songs with simple accompaniment, I think.
As to his instrumental abilities, leet's remember that a person can compose not just lyrics but tunes, harmonies & rhythms without being a particularly skilled player.
While none of us (except maybe Geoff Grace) can speak to MJ's actul involvement in composing his material, I suspect he was involved as much as most pop artists.

It is not unusual for some to take credit for work done by others. It's also not unusual for successful artists to be accused of doing so when they're innocent. Nor is it unusual for producers to often define a recording far beyond what the writer did.

It's come to my attention, through some postings over at Anterton's SSS/HC that apparently there's a wealth of vid clips of MJ depositions in such cases, some of which include footage of him singing unaccompanied. It sounds as though he had consistent, maybe "perfect" pitch & also he demonstrates a talent for "beat boxing" that equals what I've heard from anyone else. I think it's clearly possible that he could have done anything with which he's credited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz0wrkOT-4U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKrZisT80LY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5he8XQC...PL&index=61

Ian's suggestions are all good. I've heard most of those done in a cocktail setting and they have enough room for expression to be recognisable, intimate, and creatively inspiring.

Can't think of any additional ones to add the the list right now.

I'll risk a copyright infringement case and have posted MJ's home recording of "Billy Jean" here:

http://www.divshare.com/download/7769635-b44

If you love the Linndrum, this is for you

I'll see if I can put up an interview with Q about Thriller as well.

no disrespect intended but honestly the above examples don't help, what makes you think that Billy Jean demo (the music track) was done alone?

Michael was fantastic but IMO, with the bit of knowledge I do have, his general musical talent and songwriting abilities are and have always been blown out of proportion.

If you guys want to give examples to prove me wrong feel free but it's not necessary. I don't feel it takes anything away from how great he was for me to have this opinion.

Some of this gets into the ever present grey areas of what is writing and what is arrangement...especially in pop music.

I don't think he played the guitar on that demo, but I do think it amply demonstrates that the music is his vision entirely.

There's a certain signature sound and rhythm to the stuff that he writes, very different from Rod Temperton's stuff, which is sweeter and more sophisticated, but lack Mike's "hip&cool", if you will.

I don't find those MJ depositions all that convincing, his credibilty is always questionable in my mind. I think he may have wanted people to think he wrote the songs, for his ego's sake.

What do you know that we don't, Steve? Come on, out with it!

I shouldn't have entered this conversation really and don't want to go any further with it. I'll just say I've been in LA since 1986 and have worked with a lot of people who worked with or near Michael. Some of the people were bitter for things that were there own fault, some not so much, some just unreliable people in general, some very reliable. None of the related facts or rumors are worth publishing on a public forum but the accumulation of all has helped me form some opinions. It's not a big deal to me either way, I've never been a huge MJ fan but I dig a lot of the music, love some of it and recognize how important he was.

I retire from this thread.

MJ was a Motown kid. When you work with the likes of Berry Gordy, Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye, and the Funk Brothers I'd think some of the mechanics of writing tunes and making records is bound to rub off. At the very least I get the impression that he knew how to get an idea down and describe how he wanted those ideas fleshed-out to the people working with him. That suggests MJ had much skill as many others with "songwriter" credits. Musical genius? I think that's gilding the lily.

I think he was a good entertainer/singer. I don't think he really wrote much of any of the tunes, but of course he claimed he did.

Greatest dancer? He stole from James Brown, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, the Nicholas Brothers etc. I think he "stole" from the best songwriters, as well, and arranged them into songs he claims he wrote.

"I get paid a lot of money to not tell you who I write for."

- L.A. Ghostwriter

You mean it might have started as a vocal over piano and someone was hired to do a simple bass synth, synth chords, and drum beat? After several scratch vocals another synth line is added, the drum beat fussed with and then someone comes in to add a then ubiquitous Niles Rogers style chicken scratch guitar? Maybe another pass on vocals and lyrics and it's then polished enough to copyright and pass on to Quincy Jones?

Yeah, that's right. Just today I was listening to the radio, and you know what? All the hit songs used the same 12 notes that I always use. Where's my lawyer, I'm going to sue somebody...



--Dave

I know I said I retire but I'll respond quickly to this.

To me, without really knowing, it seems like Michael was hanging with someone who plays. Michael chooses a drum machine preset and beat boxes the parts. Dude in the studio plays keyboard parts to match what Michael's conveying (like the Bass line and keyboard parts or were they inspired by Michael's beatbox?). Dude in the studio plays the guitar part (or someone is hired to add guitar). Michael starts singing his melody and the keyboard player harmonizes it (Bridge).

I would argue that all the best artists steal from others and make what they steal their own.

I expect Keyboard magazine will shed some light on Michael song writing in an up coming issue. They have covered him in the past, and I remember from a Keyboard magazine issue in past (80's) stating that Michael wrote most of the songs, maybe all for the Thriller Album. He had multitrack the parts, wrote the words, and the singing. All Quincy Jones had to do was hire the good musicians and add his producing touches. Also the Thriller album was mostly an all keyboard album except for the drums and the t guitar solo in Beat It.

Michael had a narcissistic personality, he was vain, manipulative, had a huge ego, and was very concerned about his public image. I suspect he relied on ghost writers and worked to propagate the myth that he wrote his own material, like many of his heros who actually did write their own songs such as Stevie Wonder and The Beatles.