#2029247 - 01/05/09 10:50 AM
Armchair Keyboard Players
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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rochester, NY
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I was thinking when reading the How Audience Rates Keyboard Players thread that it seems there are always musicians in other bands that want to tell us what to play or listen too. I was talking with some other keyboard players this weekend about it. Musicians are always saying “you should learn to play this” or “you should play this or check out this guy” I feel like telling them “and you should shut the fuck up” I don’t know where they get off telling us what to do. I always wonder where this attitude stems from. They don’t tell horn players what to play. I mean it is really weird especially if it comes from drummers and bass players. Guitar players are the big culprits for it in most cases. Usually we have more training or learn music more completely then they do. They also don’t realize how hard the instrument is to play. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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#2029258 - 01/05/09 11:05 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Outkaster]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5074
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Inferiority feelings, maybe? Trying to impress you with their musical acumen?
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#2029263 - 01/05/09 11:16 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: mate_stubb]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 1193
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
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this is probably not very useful Outkaster, but I haven't run across that in maybe 15 years. Just a guess - maybe cause jazz guys don't go there? Is it mainly a rock thing?
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#2029268 - 01/05/09 11:23 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: mate_stubb]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 121
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I think it's very subjective.
We all have a different style to our playing, is my playing better than yours, I doubt it, I't just different.
I take comments like that with a grain of salt.
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#2029269 - 01/05/09 11:24 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: timwat]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5074
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Sometimes it's not a bad thing. In my blissfully ignorant early rock days, I had a soundman (of all people) tell me that I should check out Jimmy Smith, because I kind of played like him.
That turned out to be a good tip!
I had picked up his influence indirectly from all the rock players I was listening to, but didn't know the source of it all.
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Moe --- About the only thing I'd run through a Roland KC amp is a chainsaw. http://www.hotrodmotm.com
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#2029271 - 01/05/09 11:26 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: mate_stubb]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 5260
Loc: Wash DC Area
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Aside from audence "rating" KB players, I believe it is important to play good music for them. OTOH, while it is cool to talk shop with fellow musos akin to this forum, NEVER play for musicians except in an audition. Otherwise, unless it is truly constructive i.e. useful, take their "advice" with a grain of salt. 
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"I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak."--Prez BO
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#2029273 - 01/05/09 11:27 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Outkaster]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 2418
Loc: Huntington Sta., New York (LI)
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Outkaster, I'm not so sure it is just a symptom of our time and space exclusively though I think things may be more on the surface nowadays than say 40 years ago. We have all, players and non, been exposed to so much crap coming from every corner of the crowded room we call the world now with media in the past 50-60 years! There is the well know story in the jazz world in regards to Prez (Lester Young), the great tenor player/innovator with the Basie band who set up in some respects Birds ascension and Be-Bop but a genius all his own. I think this is just beautiful. When someone came on to Pres in any way with advice or opinions, at the point where the person went 'over the line' in the conversation for Prez he would say - "Ding-Dong!" ( just like a bell being rung), then proceed out of the conversation and walk away! All sorts of people in the beginning of Lester's stint with the Count, including Basie's wife used to say to Pres - "Lester why don't you play like Coleman Hawkins". (the people's favorite @ the time). I'm sure Mrs Basie got more than one Ding-Dong from Lester in those days! But the musicians in the Basie band knew Lester was something special and it eventually showed itself in his legacy. In alot of ways I think you have to be like that even if it's 'internal' in your mind. I'd love to do that though! At a gig I have all sorts of Ding Dongs I have to deal with, including the other players at times! The way Prez did it makes things very clear at that moment it occurs and I think that's the important idea about it. I guess you would have to be Prez to pull it off 'in real time' these days! I don't think it's that he may have had so much trouble necessarily with what people said but it is after all "their process" and I think that may have bugged him, life and art are just not that simple to boil down to 'be like this or that! lb 
Edited by Legatoboy (01/05/09 11:36 AM)
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#2029282 - 01/05/09 11:42 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Legatoboy]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 1968
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While not directly related to your thread... I'm astonished when I hear from band members I've played at uni with who seemingly don't know anything about the genre they are involved with past CDs from (3rd rate) artists of the last 10 years...
I mean how can anyone be a folk musician in the UK, adorn themselves on posters, flyers, play folk festivals, and not have heard of Nick Drake, Bert Jansch, Richard Thompson, John Martyn, when they sound like 10th rate rip offs with very limited techniques...
We live in truly narcissistic, self promotional, quick fix, "look at me" times.
Nevermind the quality... feel the length...
the length of a soft brown log usually...
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#2029293 - 01/05/09 11:55 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: orangefunk]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 5260
Loc: Wash DC Area
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While not directly related to your thread... I'm astonished when I hear from band members I've played at uni with who seemingly don't know anything about the genre they are involved with past CDs from (3rd rate) artists of the last 10 years...
We live in truly narcissistic, self promotional, quick fix, "look at me" times.
Nevermind the quality... feel the length...
the length of a soft brown log usually... O-Funk, the reality is that not all musicians are "historians" to any significant degree. Their influences might begin at someone from their generation or the preceding. Many musicians just want to play. Not a bad thing. Takes all kinds to make those soft brown logs float.  Also, it takes a certain amount of time and effort to seek out and understand that which came before the present. Maybe that is harder to do in an instant gratification society.
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#2029377 - 01/05/09 02:20 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: ProfD]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 1968
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Sorry fot the rant x 2... ;-) its not completely about being the historian which bothers me... (even though I disagree... IMHO you cannot class yourself a folk musician without knowing the roots.. if know the roots without being a folk musician then there is a fundamental problem  ) its the lack of passion about playing/learning and more about the constant self promotion (I'm emailed practically day in and day out about crappy gigs) and wondering why they are not stars... there are literally 100s of those people at the uni where I was.. they play for nothing, they play to empty rooms, they completely saturate the scene with their 3 chord triadic jams... now playing for fun like you say is okay... but only when its in your bedroom... when you have say 20 bands all playing for nothing, all playing the same kind of weak acoustic music to unattentive audiences, it destroys the music scene... the bars don't want to pay anymore because they get used to not having to, and the main audiences don't come out because they know its the same stuff and faces over and over again.. In the UK at least I think basic musicianship is at a really low level, but maybe it was always like that... no-one wants to really learn things... its all too much about being cool and looking right... and that takes a lot of time... ;-) Of course now and again you hear some good things.. but since I have moved away from the UK I don't hear that complete greed anymore... the music scene here is awesome beyond belief... there isn't that push for success and fame like its the only thing in life... just a kind of passion for playing music and real love... Anyway... thats enough of a rant to start 2009 !!! ;-)
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#2029408 - 01/05/09 02:52 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: orangefunk]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 5260
Loc: Wash DC Area
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O-Funk, I believe that "problem" exists to varying degrees everywhere. IMO, the market has become so saturated with music until folks truliy believe anybody can do it. That mindset has a ripple effect i.e. declining interest in live music, zero dollar paying gigs, etc. Hopefully, some of those musicians will "grow up" and take music more seriously i.e. truly learn the craft to a more significant degree.
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"I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak."--Prez BO
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#2029453 - 01/05/09 05:30 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Outkaster]
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Gold Member
Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 853
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I always wonder where this attitude stems from. I've been wondering the same thing about some of your posts  Seriously, when someone says to me "you should check so and so out, it usually means they like my playing and they think I will like the playing of someone else they like. I don't think it's such a big deal.
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#2029455 - 01/05/09 05:40 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Steve Nathan]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 1499
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Seriously, when someone says to me "you should check so and so out, it usually means they like my playing and they think I will like the playing of someone else they like. I played a solo keyboard gig last Saturday night at a coffee house about 50 minutes away (open mike). There was an acoustic guitar player up last, and we chatted a bit after the event was over. He suggested I check out some tunes by a UK musician that plays mostly electronic stuff like I do. It was flattering, not an annoyance.
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#2029486 - 01/05/09 06:53 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Synthoid]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 341
Loc: Charlotte, NC
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I don't mind suggestions of artists and CD's to listen to...hey it may be a compliment or it may turn you on to an artist you otherwise wouldn't have known about.
I do have a problem with other guys in the band coming over to my keys and playing my boards as a way of trying to tell me how to play a part....or saying why don't you use this sound, or play it this way, here let me show you, etc. etc. etc. If we are all learning our parts for a cover song and/or creating our own parts for a cover or original song, then let me learn it the way I want or create what I hear. I don't tell the guitarist, bass or drummer how to play their instrument, yet it seems others think it okay to do that to the keyboard player. That really chaps my nether-regions.
BD
Edited by Blues Disciple (01/05/09 06:53 PM)
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#2029490 - 01/05/09 07:21 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Blues Disciple]
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Senior Member
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 131
Loc: West Chester, PA
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The way I interpreted this (correct me if I'm wrong Jason), was not the "hey what you're playing's cool, have you ever heard of guy X, you should check him out", it was more like "Hey, I want you to play like artist Y". I did encounter this once. I was sitting in a band that was covering some Dead tunes (ironically enough given that they seemed to be a band that epitomized free playing and experimentation), and one of the band members said I should go listen to another Grateful Dead cover band to hear what the keyboard player was playing so I could play what he played. I asked him if it was because he didn't like my playing, and he said no, he just said the other player sounds like Brent (Mydland). I told him I wasn't really interested in doing a cover of a cover band, and that I thought it kind of defeated the idea of a jam band in the first place, since even though I am not a Dead head, I'm willing to bet that the Dead didn't play any of their songs the same way twice. I asked if he had transcribed Jerry's lines note for note and played them exactly that way. It was kind of a bitchy thing to say at the time, but I felt it made my point.
I think this attitude tends to come from some players who view keyboards (or any band member) as background filler and not as an integral part of the band, and want to re-create "a certain type of sound", rather than wanting to interact with other musicians and hear what they have to say musically (unless you are trying to cover a song exactly as the original was recorded). I would guess such a comment is more common with inexperienced players who initially tend to be more slanted to emulating well known musicians, rather than other musicians who wish to develop their own sound and play as an ensemble. I think when we all started, we were inspired by other keyboardists and tried to emulate them in one way or another. I, for one, am guilty of tilting my first organ (a Kimball Swinger 700) on its side and letting it fall down to get the reverb to crash like Keith Emerson. I did thie shortly after I heard ELP which changed my life musically at the time. In my case, it was imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, but an important distinction was that I wanted to play like (and as well as) Keith. It wasn't someone else telling me I should play exactly like Keith Emerson.
Edited by Doc Tonewheel (01/05/09 07:23 PM)
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#2029508 - 01/05/09 08:11 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Doc Tonewheel]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rochester, NY
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The way I interpreted this (correct me if I'm wrong Jason), was not the "hey what you're playing's cool, have you ever heard of guy X, you should check him out", it was more like "Hey, I want you to play like artist Y". I did encounter this once. I was sitting in a band that was covering some Dead tunes (ironically enough given that they seemed to be a band that epitomized free playing and experimentation), and one of the band members said I should go listen to another Grateful Dead cover band to hear what the keyboard player was playing so I could play what he played. I asked him if it was because he didn't like my playing, and he said no, he just said the other player sounds like Brent (Mydland). I told him I wasn't really interested in doing a cover of a cover band, and that I thought it kind of defeated the idea of a jam band in the first place, since even though I am not a Dead head, I'm willing to bet that the Dead didn't play any of their songs the same way twice. I asked if he had transcribed Jerry's lines note for note and played them exactly that way. It was kind of a bitchy thing to say at the time, but I felt it made my point.
I think this attitude tends to come from some players who view keyboards (or any band member) as background filler and not as an integral part of the band, and want to re-create "a certain type of sound", rather than wanting to interact with other musicians and hear what they have to say musically (unless you are trying to cover a song exactly as the original was recorded). I would guess such a comment is more common with inexperienced players who initially tend to be more slanted to emulating well known musicians, rather than other musicians who wish to develop their own sound and play as an ensemble. I think when we all started, we were inspired by other keyboardists and tried to emulate them in one way or another. I, for one, am guilty of tilting my first organ (a Kimball Swinger 700) on its side and letting it fall down to get the reverb to crash like Keith Emerson. I did thie shortly after I heard ELP which changed my life musically at the time. In my case, it was imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, but an important distinction was that I wanted to play like (and as well as) Keith. It wasn't someone else telling me I should play exactly like Keith Emerson. Yes that is the point I was trying to make. It is not like I make this stuff up. It happened a few weeks ago. I just don't like being though of as inferior. Maybe I will start a support group: www.keyboardplayersaremusicianstoo.org
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"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"
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#2029513 - 01/05/09 08:18 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Steve Nathan]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rochester, NY
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I always wonder where this attitude stems from. I've been wondering the same thing about some of your posts Seriously, when someone says to me "you should check so and so out, it usually means they like my playing and they think I will like the playing of someone else they like. I don't think it's such a big deal. Some of my posts hmmmm?
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"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"
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#2029529 - 01/05/09 08:51 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Outkaster]
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Senior Member
Registered: 08/13/08
Posts: 158
Loc: Puerto Rico
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Musicians are always saying “you should learn to play this” or “you should play this or check out this guy” I feel like telling them “and you should shut the fuck up” heh heh. yeah man you tell em!!!! Seriously though, it really depends on who told you and why. If you just played a rokin set and had the audience shakin their thang all night long, then some 'musician' comes along and says this with a quircky smirk on his face, then you know he's just talkin out of his ass, instead of just congratulating you on a good show. However, if a fellow musician comments on your playing sayin you should check out so and so artist, its probably cause you reminded him of that particular musician, thats a good thing man! remeber when I commented on one of your songs that reminded me of jackie mitoo? i certainly did not mean that as disrespect, but as a compliment, since most reggae today is void of expression and musicality. (save some artistis who still keep it close to the heart) the other day my piano teacher told me to listen a harpsichordist named Ton Koopman after evaluating my interpretation of a 3 part invention in Bminor, (ahem). He said my interpretation was very similar to this maestro i had never heard of. High praise in my opinion, especially after listening to Koopman interpret the same invention. WOW. My point is man, you should take it as it comes, if its full of crap, well, DING DONG!!!!!!
Edited by Cloud_9 (01/05/09 08:58 PM)
Edit Reason: i kant spel wirth a dam
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#2029531 - 01/05/09 09:02 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Cloud_9]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Yeah I know. I hear what you guys mean. I would not tell someone to shut the fuck up but I think it.
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"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"
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#2029533 - 01/05/09 09:10 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Outkaster]
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MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 4660
Loc: Virginia
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Yeah I know. I hear what you guys mean. I would not tell someone to shut the fuck up but I think it. Jason, what up with all the f-bombs all the time on the forum? Didn't your mom ever wash your mouth out with soap when you were growing up? 
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#2029549 - 01/05/09 09:49 PM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Cloud_9]
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Gold Member
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 583
Loc: North Carolina
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I keep hoping someday somewhere someone will come up to me after a set and say "man have you ever heard of Steve Nathan? Dude, you sound just like him.
Then, my fellow forumites, I will pack my things and move to Nashville! Hi Steve, good to see you around these parts again!
/sucking up
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#2029627 - 01/06/09 06:26 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Joe Muscara]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rochester, NY
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LOL. I ruined my tongue like that kid did in the movie Christmas Story.
Edited by Outkaster (01/06/09 07:04 AM)
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"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"
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#2029645 - 01/06/09 07:25 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: eric]
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Platinum Member
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Yeah I know. I hear what you guys mean. I would not tell someone to shut the fuck up but I think it. Jason, what up with all the f-bombs all the time on the forum? Didn't your mom ever wash your mouth out with soap when you were growing up? I love F bombs by the way. They are not directed at anyone here.
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"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"
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#2029679 - 01/06/09 08:16 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Outkaster]
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 83
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They're telling you because they figure you're the only guy in the band that knows what he's doing.
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#2029697 - 01/06/09 08:52 AM
Re: Armchair Keyboard Players
[Re: Mexico Charlie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Indiana
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Next time it happens, you could say something like "Thank you. You know I've been meaning to ask one of you arm chair keyboard players how you can play the keyboard from an arm chair. How do you keep from bumping your elbows on the arm rests?" And walk away.
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