So who ever won this contest?

Wow, this topic has been going for like 10 months.

Personally, I think Carlos is over rated.

I am not into his style, I think his control of vibrato is bad. I realize there are plenty of guitarists that are into him though, and that is just my opinion.

But I agree with Eric. Practice your guitar. Get good. All of those 'intangibles' are secondary to being good. But to be good you need to practice like 5 hours a day for years.

Let me give you an example. If you only played guitar for 7 months, perhaps you aren't very good. Where are the 'intangibles'? I mean maybe you play at a party, but do they kick in (the intangibles) at a given point if you are feeling spiritual?

Dunno, all I am saying is good players are good players. If you can play well, and more importantly enjoy what you are playing, you will be more likely to move your audience.

After that it is all business, and marketing. Which for whatever reason seems to be forgotten. If you aren't marketed you are NOTHING. It doesn't matter about the 'intangibles'.

That includes everyone's hero Carlos.

Yeeeeeeeeah... Isn't this over with?

I did...just waiting for confirmation

You don't expect TANGIBLE confirmation, do you??

I've spent some time teaching teenagers to play guitar, or to improve their guitar playing. Practice is important. Among other things, it's a pathway to ease with the instrument, and with music. It's a bit of a cycle, too; practice is a pathway to a musical mind, and a musical mind is a pathway into more musical practice.

In my experience it is also true that, even in the first year of their playing, one finds times that a kid clears their mind and is suddenly playing at a level above their 'ability'. Or they get into a certain mindset and play something simple but complete, and definitely moving. Having spent some time in a long running songwriting group, I've also experienced people who can just about make it through four chords playing a song that has moved me to tears.

I have also experienced people who are slavishly devoted to practicing, or to scales, or to some favorite corner of theory, who in essence spend their playing days learning to practice really well. And who don't do anything that opens up their heart or their mind or their soul or whatever you want to call it, and despite what may be formidable chops, don't touch anyone else with their playing.

My own take on things spiritual is that the simple doorway is a state of mind that is clear, flowing, relaxed, undistracted and centered. All of us fall into that sort of state of mind from time to time, because it's a natural part of us. It's our default state, when we're not distracted by our own busy, 'thinking mind'. It's natural, it's innate, and even so, it can to some extent be cultivated, nurtured, brought along... as one finds in tea ceremony, or martial arts, or learning to ski or dance... One cultivates it so that one can realize that one can let it go...

People with open minds and hearts will move their audiences even while making mistakes, forgetting a lyric, playing a bum note... although they are less likely to do those things, in my experience, when their mind is clear...

When the mind is clear, connection happens naturally...

A clear mind is invisible, and thus intangible. So is 'connection'. But both are real.

Whenever you speak of opening your heart or moving your audience it gets sketchy to my ears. As for making mistakes and still moving people, I don't agree. If you make mistakes you are killing the music. Thats why classical musicians are practically perfect, or they don't succeed, they are replaced by someone who plays to perfection. I think technique is a huge part of emotion, but then I have to define technique. I am not talking about shredding, or speed. That is merely 1 aspect. Technique is HOW you play the guitar. That is a very painstaking process of many years of practice and playing. Above it comes from vision. You have to know what you want to sound like before you will be able to accomplish that goal.

I like to think I could always play and move people. When I say that, I mean that because regardless of my state of mind, I can always play something with dynamics and feel. Thwack, attack, control of vibrato. Those are part of dynamics and feel which are part of technique.

Without those aspects, which are very premeditated, a player will not move me.

Also all the facial expressions, and clothing, image. That doesn't move me either. I could care less what expression a player has on his face. What moves me revolves around the music, the note choice, the technique which enables the player to have a unique voice.

All of that is subjective. Some guys like this, some guys like that. I mentioned Carlos does absolutely nothing for me. I don't care for his vibrato, or his note choice. To me he has little emotion in his playing. In fact I think he is one of the most over rated players in history.


But you know what? TONS of players think he has TONS of emotion and that he has this amazing incredible tone. So I guess some people like him.

So being that everything is subjective regarding right and wrong, with emotions etc. I just think it is wordy to even try to describe it. Kind of like my wordy reply.

I tend to think people are sheep. They are farmed ideas by TV and the media, who are trying to sell consumerism to them. Whole societies can be programmed this way to think this is good, and that is bad. I think that 'guitar gods' have been sold this way too.

You know how many incredible players I know who BLOW Carlos away on every level? But yet everyone is putting him on this pedestal because the TV, and the magazines told them he was.

But whatever, just a bunch of words..

Re: making mistakes "killing" the music? Not necessarily; even the greatest classical virtuosos make mistakes! And some of the best jazzers skate regularly on thin ice, so they make more mistakes than if they played it safe - but that's part of what makes it exciting!

But I agree that mistakes due to being careless and lazy do detract a lot from the end product!
PS thanks for an idea for a new post!

Just stopped by to see if I won or not! There's a big music festival featuring Santana music in Sydney this weekend. Can't wait(poor deluded fool that I am).

Checking back in with a couple more random thoughts....

I just read Chris O'Dell's autobiography, 'Miss O'Dell', which was a lot of fun. She mentions in the book that among the musicians she worked with on tour, Carlos Santana was possibly the nicest and most considerate... I've read in a number of places that Carlos is a very decent human being... I've certainly enjoyed the interviews with him that I've read over the years...

This got me thinking that Carlos seems to be someone who has worked on himself in order to be a better musician, and who has also used music as a pathway to working on himself... That strikes me as both a very practical and a very spiritual approach to life...

On the other end of things, I probably mentioned that I work as a therapist. Recently I've been training in neurofeedback, a way of using feedback about one's brain activity to alter that brain activity, thus achieving goals that may include greater clarity, attention, less anxiety or depression, better sleep, and so on... Last week I had sort of breakthrough moment when I was able to look at my own brainwaves scrolling across a computer monitor, pick one, and increase or decrease its amplitude... Or, I could assume different states of mind as best I could and then see their 'signature' on the screen...

What occurred to me afterwards was that this is where the formerly intangible becomes tangible, when the thing that was hard to describe and quantify takes a step in the direction of the describable... It all connects with this discussion in that different brain wave frequencies are better for certain activities. Some are better for learning, some better for practicing, some better for creative activity...

What I'm learning is how to reinforce my own and other people's ability to access appropriate states at appropriate times. Cool stuff, very exciting.

I think many of us have intuited subjectively that we get in different "head space" to be at our best in different settings, but this is a point where the subjective starts becoming objective, even scientific.

And wow, has it really been over a year?

Ed

I haven't been here in several years. Sure has changed a lot in here. Don't see too many familiar names.

OK, intangibles...

I've been listening a lot to the old "Second Winter" cd and am impressed with Johnny Winter's abilities back then. He far exceeded what many guitarists of that time (1969) were doing, while at the same time not giving the music more than it required, like VanHalen and others of his ilk. I often say that if it wasn't for the hammer method and the whammy bar, Eddie wouldn't have had much of a career. Winter's slide work on "Highway 61 Revisited" and "I Love Everybody" has yet to be equalled. Most importantly, his playing sounds like he's having the time of his life, which is what it's all about, isn't it?

Whitefang

Hey, 'fang! How's it goin'?

I've gotta say that, while I'm not a big fan of Van Halen overall (the band, many of their songs in general, and DLR in particular, even though he was a perfect fit, and the best fit, for 'em), as far as the earlier albums go, I've always loved EVH's tone, rhythm guitar playing, phrasing, and "touch" on the instrument.

I remember you, Caevan, glad to hear from you. On EVH...
I heard him do some acoustic work when the group busted out that was top-notch, (Save the Women and Children First), but unfortunately, everyone paid too much attention to his frantic and aimless wailing.

Whitefang

Well, for myself Van Halen stands as one of the most identifiable rock players EVER. His tone, phrasing, and rythm playing FAR outwiegh tapping and whammy bar tricks, which seems to be where most people put him lump him

To me EVH is the epitome of rythm guitarist, as well as being an incredible rock improviser for lead guitar.

Let me put it this way. EVH is one of the hardest players to copy. To play it like him takes a tremendous amount of vision because of how much energy he infuses in it. Every little thing he is doing he KNOWS he is doing.

That changes the equation exponentially when comparing EVH to everyone else. He changed everything and raised the bar for not only every guitarist from that era, but for every band.

Van Halen was a very polished band. You can go back to the 1960's and early 70's and find plenty of professional examples of imperfections in production. You know late hits on the snare, sloppy bass drums, or guitars, off pitch vocals.

After Van Halen I and Bostons debut, things became a bit more exacting sounding that before.

Van Halen also really underscores the philosophy that tone starts from your hands. I mean you can listen to him on some of the acoustic songs they recorded and you can always tell its him, and that he is REALLY playing the guitar. I mean when he plays acoustic he has the same conviction he does one electric. He is PLAYING IT. Not half assing it like so many rock players today who use thier amp or pedals as a crutch to hide flawed technique.

I can't put my finger on it, but this thread seems to have veered off-topic!

What an intangible turn!

Well, we had beaten the poor horse to death, anyway... LOL! Largely my (very tangible)fault...