Dude, I am not sure what that is but I can't eat aparagus as a result. Inevitably one must 'bleed the freak' so to speak, and it smells like plastic eggs if there were such a thing.

It's not much different a smell then after you've had a few pints of ale, like the Sam Adams stuff....mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Intangibles...
After I read Carlos Santana's latest article in GP I looked at the ceiling and said "thank you Carlos"! Though some of his concepts may be difficult to get I think he completely hit the nail on the head on intangibles and/or "playing from the heart". A definition of intangible could be 'formless'..or something we can't wrap our hands around.
In quantum physics everything from an atom to a universe is comprised of one thing...ENERGY. We are all part of this vast energy field. All of us, all of our gear, our fellow musicians, the people we play for, even the computer to send these words to this forum..is vibrating energy on some level that is all connected.
Yes, trippy I know, however science and spirituality are becoming sister studies instead of separate areas. Myself being a new student on viewing life in a 'spiritual quantum theory sort of way' has truly assisted me in being a much more relaxed musician. I no longer worry about not having a strong theory background, about what other musicians in the crowd might think, or just the self-criticism while playing etc.
It goes so much farther than just music though. When we can truly get out of our own way and incorporate this 'way of being' into everyday life then we can see fireworks happen in every area. When we breathe deeper, when we treat everyone with kindness, when we smile and laugh more, when we are less judgemental and most important..when we respect and love ourselves...then I think we are moving in the most powerful direction. Which I believe Carlos Santana was expressing in the article.
If we adopt this way of being how can we not become a better guitar player or musician? For myself..before every gig or rehearsal, or even every song or solo..I consciously say to myself.."when I play my music I come from my creative source"..or "I allow the universe to play through me"..and you have to believe it..not just say the words, then I notice a shift in my playing,,kind of like being an observer to myself. At the very least I am unattached to the outcome of say a solo. I just calmly play with fire and feeling.
It does take some work to allow yourself to be willing to let this all happen. However it is a fun journey and all of life can be like a great song!
I believe there is a quiet spiritual place in all of us. So to all of my guitar player brothers...lets find that place in our core, so we can let it out in a ripping solo that takes peoples breath away!

Bmahk some interesting points on the energy stuff. For myself, 'the magic' comes from wanting to play and achieve my vision of what I want to hear. I play my best in the morning if I have the option. You know a couple cups of coffee etc, then I I am an open channel to myself and I pose alot in front of the mirror while I totally wrock out..

But I don't think about that stuff too much, I just play or practice cuz thats the only way to get good. Doing it.

Some years ago, five other musicians and I took the stage at an open mike session to play together for the first time. The first seconds of the first song revealed something special, bathed in joyous, divine light. Everyone's solos sang; every song had its own life and power. After, the other guitar player said "that was a step above anything I've ever done before."

This sounds and feels metaphysical, religious, but it is solidly real and accessible. At the edge of chaos new forms hold their shape by unarticulated force of will, where musicians are uniquely individual yet embraced in something greater. No time to reflect, yet acutely aware of the knife's edge, at the limit of skill. How can I be playing this, when it -- the music, the song, the band as a whole -- seems to be playing me?

"That experience is a glorious one ... a feeling of spontaneous joy, even rapture ... people become utterly absorbed in what they are doing, paying undivided attention to the task, their awareness merged with their actions.."
Flow: the Neurobiology of Excellence, Emotional Intelligence at ch. 6 (Goleman 1995).

How did we get there, considering that we all seemed to get there at there same time? Basic competence at least, whether it was shred-fest speed, the ability to wrest emotions from a single note, or melding with the drums and bass into a powerful rhythm section. But also open ears, with overbearing ego checked at the door, a retained willingness to be both individual and part of a greater whole.

Some technical ability was needed. Still, guitar players these days are a-dime-a-dozen, technically good guitar players have become a common commodity, and the general audience doesn't recognize the difference between a hack's memorized licks and a master's carefully wrought solo. Despite this, musicians and audience alike respond with hearts and bodies when musicians are in flow, and when it happens skill is transparent and talk of mere technical skill is irrelevant.

The gateway to this state and the state itself might be intangible -- maybe moral is the better word -- but the joy shared by audience and musician is palpable.

I was thinking the whole stinky fart in a car---windows up--car locked 6 people thinga-magic when I saw this intangible thread. I mean yet another one.

But nicely written in any event.

Gifthorse:

Thanks for the "nicely written" bit. As to the rest, considering that I made specific points in response to the "it's just hot stinky air" school out there, I wonder whether you agree with those points or not, and why.

Here they are, more analytically stated:

1. Santana was not just full of baloney. There is a near-transcendant state that musicians (and others achieve), and it is not just in the (non-physical) head -- it has a neurobiological correlate that some people call "flow."

2. In the individual, that state typically occurs in definable circumstances -- at the least, these include (a) sharp focus (b) on the task (c) to the point of near self-less absorption, with (d) skills (e) tasked beyond their normal use.

3. But because guitarists -- good guitarists -- are so common, it's not enough to sway the audience or the other musicians for the guitarist alone to achieve this state, when it seems more like just wanking. There are moral requirements as well, to permit several musicians to share the experience, and these include a restrained but healthy ego and a willingness to contribute to a greater whole.

So -- agree or not?

Of course, if you want Zen, there's always Mr. Miyagi's lessons "for whole life, not just karate":

Rule Number One:
"Someone always know more"
Rule Number Two:
"Trust quality what you know, not quantity."

Paul -
1. He wasn't full of B.S., none of them are...
2. It's pretty typical, we all talk about the zone here. Santana hasn't tapped into fresh maple syrup...
3. Locked in is also pretty typical...

I think the lackluster response for the recent evangelicalism around these points is to be expected...

Deleted by author.

Man...I just have no words for all this craziness. Let's hope it passes...

I remember my first hit...

Do you mean all the "Intangible" threads...?

I think more will be heading our way...as the GP magazine folks are doing what we've talked about in the past, and they are writing articles that direct readers to the forums to post up their comments.

I think it's cool...as it's obviously brought in a lot of new members in the last few days. But it may make more sense to have a single thread, and direct all the magazine respondents to that thread....instead of each one posting their own new thread.

Same thing kinda' happened over on the Project Studio forums. They have a Kick Drum Technique article in this month’s EQ...then they directed people to the Project Studio forums to post their comments and also take a shot at winning a microphone for best-described kick drum technique (or something like that).
Trouble is...there was no single thread set up for all the responses....so everyone just starts a new tread.

Maybe something can be coordinated with the editors of GP and EQ to better facilitate these types of interactive events...but I think it's a great idea to bring in fresh members to the forums.

Honestly, I am completely sick of the intangible thing. All of them can be broken down into this: "You've got to play with emotion and feel, and if you do that, you will be happy and will be a better guitar player."

I'd rather see spam just to have SOMETHING new.

Yeah...having dozens of "Intangible" threads is a bit nuts...but if it was all corralled into one thread topic where everyone posted/discussed, it wouldn't be a problem...no different than any other topic.

A-String - perhaps you guys could post a sticky at the top of the forum titled whatever the given month's article happens to be, so the n00bs can see right away where they should post?

Ahem! That's a bit of a rough welcome for a new member!

Paul, we're a good bunch with occasional lapses into grumpiness, but we want new blood. Welcome!

Picker:

You -- and another fellow who responded -- apparently missed one of the most important parts of my post, that added to what was said before. The part where I pointed out it's not just about one guy being in the "zone," that there's a morality that constrains making good music in a group. And the other point musta got past you, too -- that it's not just mysticism, but instead related to a neuropsychological state where some skill is required.

Sure, we can talk about lots of things about guitar playing. Let's talk about the kind of mixed playing Paul Gilbert's more recent video lessons exemplify: do you think shredding takes a turn for the worse when a player uses a mixture of picking and hammer-on/pull offs? Is it easier because it requires less hand-hand coordination, or harder because of the greater demands on the left hand for strength and accuracy? Does it open up greater possibilities? Does it invite players to rely too much on effects and processing while losing the "touch" for the guitar? Let's talk about the role of tone -- is tone enough or do you, like me, prefer and maybe even need to also have enough volume to feel the music? What are your real feelings about Flash Bathary's playing, unaffected by the fact that she died? Do you think Buckethead has brought anything new to the table? How much do you think Shaun Layne owed to the fact that his signature guitar was a smaller scale, and does that fact excuse using right-hand tapping to achieve some of his licks? Is Eric Clapton an overrated guitarist and as guilty of playing the same thing that he played 40 years ago as some people think Santana is?

Still, that's not all there is to it. There is much to the intangible side of playing; I and others here think it is just as important as all the technical know-how /shredding exercises/ wild harmonics/ supercharged amps/ tricked-out guitars/ pedal racks/ hyper expensive guitar chords stuff that fills up so much bandwidth here and reduces music to a vehicle for selling commodities, be they hardward or tablature. I notice that, still, people keep posting about the intangibles. If you don't get it, I understand; I certainly get that you don't agree with a quasi-mystical approach; I see your quote about peeing like a dog. So, don't read the posts about it - if you really think it's just mysticism. But as the guy in Starman said, so might the editors of Guitar Player say to you now: "We invited them, for chrissake." And if you share my view that the intangibles are important, why do you react so aggressively to my efforts to look at it more closely, with some analysis, and from a different perspective?

If you have something constructive to say about whether you disagree or not with my specific points about the intangible side of playing, I'm happy to converse about it. Did I miss something that you think goes into the mix? Did I include something that you think unimportant? Otherwise, aren't you still just peeing? I thought the next step was for you to walk away? No. It seems to me that there is a next step in the discussion, and that is to talk about the specific things that go into "the intangibles;" to this end I tried to sort out the elements as I saw them, and I thought this was a contribution to the discussion.

For instance: If getting in the zone means pressing your skills, does that mean that you have to keep learning, or can you just talk about the "zone" while playing the same old things? What should you learn, and how -- do you move into new directions (say, a blues guy trying to learn jazz) or is there some other way to stay challenged? Is it better to play with lots of people to experience as much difference as possible, or to work with one group -- or both? There are practical questions that do not depend on mysticism. What do you think?

Paul, it's really not you, ever since that article came out, we have been getting non-stop posts about the feel-good intangible lecture, and most of us regulars are sick of it. You just came at the wrong time is all.

I wouldn't say he came at the "wrong" time.

It's become a running joke here now, and unfortunately the new folks just finding their way here aren't noticing the corpses of previous "intangibles" threads littered about the forum like a post-nuclear-holocaust wasteland.

But still THE HUMAN RACE SURVIVES!!! (At least the guitar-playing segment of it!)

To me, it seems we're talking about... being, and playing..."IN THE MOMENT". We all know of great solos that had been worked out beforehand; but when an artist has that "stream of consciousness" thing going, let's face it....that's when things can REALLY get interesting.

Clapton had it when playing live with Cream in the early days, that's for damn sure. Sometimes its the melody or chord structure of a tune that allows for spirited improvisation. John Mclaughlin certainly knows about "stream of consciousness"; his compositions are all about letting go. But even within more "grounded" rock and roll tunes, interesting streams can happen: Just check out John Lennon's face on youtube.com while he's playing "Yer Blues" on the Rolling Stones Rock and Roll Circus. At 3:30 into the tune, he starts playing this 6 on 4 double-stop thing. The blissed out expression on his face says it all! Then check out Jimi Hendrix playing "Fire" at Woodstock (also on youtube). Did he know he would yank on that whammy bar three seconds before he did? Probably not! But, look at his face when he does at 3:33 into the song. Wrrraaaaanngggg! He's definitely IN THE MOMENT!

The Byrds "Eight Miles High" (based on Coltrane's "India", available for viewing on Youtube) is a great example of a tune that begs for, and gets, the "stream of consciousness playing" that McGuinn jumps into; and it is probably one of the best solos he ever did! Parker, Coltrane, Dolphy (and countless other jazz giants) understood that after the mechanics of their instruments were learned, it was about their ability to really LET GO that separated the men from the boys; the pros from the amateurs. Stream of Consciousness...IN THE MOMENT...call it what you will, but striving for, and playing "The Intangibles" is really what takes soloing to another level.

Paul - IMO - The point at which people loose patience with the same thread is about 3. We've had that weeks ago and now into multiples of that... Did you look for them? There's a great many onesy twosy posters with little discussion. So, they drop like flies down to the no-where-ness of page 2. First thread got some serious replies, second a little flipid, third just funny, 4 OMG it's time for the passive aggressive, 6 just plain aggressive...

I think we are all excited about having fresh people to argue with because we keep rehashing the same ones. LOL... But, having arguments with 10 strangers about the same thing 10 times is even more boring...

I genuinely invite you to present perspective and seek review and council from your peers. That's what you get here... The review and council you're getting now is on track given the history of the topic. All discourse is a continuum...

I personally replied to your thread because I didn't want you to think you were ignored... Maybe you'll stick and post something about how this or that technique, progressions or music best fits the intagibles or mysticism. I IV V comes to mind as you can easily put that on autopilot with a little experience and roll your eyeballs into the back of your head as you change from rock stance one to rock stance two and begin to space noodle toward the magic note and feel it like it's singing.

I think many people, including myself, have worked countless hours on perfecting techniques that allow the singing to occur on more complex music forms. You'll have jazz guys here, tell you that's what it's ALL about. Many people here have very strong convictions about what IT is for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE... I'll be the first or second to call B.S. on that... But, my opinion is mine and yours is not. Just like a good song, it's not about perfect harmony at the end. It's not about the final destination of agreement, it's about the discord and harmony tension and release throughout.

It's a fun ride... Enjoy the journey...

Yes, but will the intangibles?

Talking about "intangibles" is kind of like talking about sex. Better than nothing if you're not getting any, nowhere near as interesting if you are...

Maybe Guitar Boy could direct the posters of whatever article(s) the mag is inviting comments on that month to post on the Guitar Player Editors Office page. It would be easier for them to keep track of the response that way. What say, GB?

I just don't know. The whole thing seems fishy to me. This isn't the first article. Why so many single post posters? These guys are making one post, often full of crap that makes no sense, and then not coming back. I can see there are a few actual posters, but what about the rest?!?

Maybe a single post for folks coming in from the mag is a good idea. The only trick would be getting them to post in there.

Call it "THIS WAY TO THE INTANGIBLES SUBFORUM"...

Remember P.T. Barnum's putting up a sign in his crowded museum that read, "This Way To The Egress", which directed people to a one-way exit to clear the way for more new customers to get in?

Yes very rough!

Welcome Paul!!
You had a very interesting take on Carlos' article and also a well thought out non-confrontational response to other posters here.

There are a couple of problems that I see with the whole "intangibles" thing here;

In the "current " issue of GP (Dec 08-Santana on cover)on pg 102 MM encourages readers to "post in the GP Forum their thoughts on personal "intangibles" on developing melodies, riff and songs."
*** The most thought provoking answer as voted by GP staff will win a PRS SE ONE (a $640 value) "!!!

You can't blame the newer posters for starting threads on the forum here if they were encouraged to do so by the Editor of GP, especially if they have the chance to win a PRS SE One!

However, within the existing format of the the forum, these redundant threads are ignored or ridiculed by existing forum members. I also think that some forum members have either not received this issue yet, didn't notice this mention in the sidebar of the article or may not even read GP!

Perhaps, a better way would have been to direct the responses to a specific thread as opposed to posters starting their own threads over and over.

Can you check their IP's...it isn't just a couple of guys is it?

Has anyone here seen/read that "Intangibles" article? Is there some kind of contest/prize associated with posting here?

That's what the Kick Drum Techniques stuff is about on the Project Studio forum.
They are offering a prize to those that post their technique with pictures and links to music showcasing that technique.
And just like here...there are a bunch of one-time posters on the Project Studio forum...

Maybe the GP and EQ editors can organize things on the magazine end, so that there is a little more focus when they get here…and not all these one-offs…

PRIZES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AH! Crap! Intangibles are so important to me. I love intangibles almost as much as I like free stuff...

We all need to start our own threads with B.S. about intangination of the whole, the firm, the rock solid foundation of music and guitar playing.

The only thing Tangible about music is notation, gear and recordings. EVERYTHING else about it is intangible... That's why Intangibles is so retarded!!!!!!!!!

Yes there is prize. A PRS SE ONE ($640 value)

See my post here ;

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2005943#Post2005943