Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#1984380 - 08/26/08 12:08 PM Wall boundary trapping.
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello All,
My first post here, but have been viewing and digesting information from here for nearly a year now. Thanks due to Ethan for such input and allowing so much free information.

I have now just finished building a new office which will double as a listening room. (approx size 6m length x 5m wide x 4m high)
On top of this will go the ceiling joists which are 300mm (12") wooden I beams.
I still have the option to have a prety much 'open' ceiling by putting insulation between the joists and then covering with whatever I want to - so I can bass trap, low and high trap the entire ceiling if so required.
My two questions for now are - Supposing I do plasterboard (sheetrock) the ceiling, where the wall meets the ceiling I am going to put trapping all the way round the room - using 4" rockwool which will also be the same as in all 4 vertical corners. Should I leave this part of the ceiling uncovered with sheetrock or not - this would allow sound to travel further up into the ceiling between the joists? Please note, the joists and upper floor (22mm chipboard) will be completely sealed and as airtight as possible to stop flanking noise to the rest of the building. All voids will also be stuffed with 'fluffy' fibreglass as well.
The entire ceiling - what are your thoughts on prety much turning the entire thing into various traps? Would it be worthwhile or just wasting money?

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

Steve.

Top
#1984586 - 08/27/08 08:57 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Steve,

What would be your purpose in putting plaster board on the ceiling at all? If you don't need it for sound isolation or heat insulation, I wouldn't even bother. Just put insulation between all the joists and cover with fabric or whatever. And if you do need sound isolation, leaving off plaster board around the perimeter will compromise the isolation.

--Ethan

Top
#1984684 - 08/27/08 01:06 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hi Ethan,
Thanks for that - my 'in best Baldrik voice' cunning plan was to place the plasterboard up between the joists to form traps of various sorts, and as you suggest, cover the entire ceiling with fabric of some sort, I was just uncertain as to if it would actually provide 'to much' trapping as a whole.
Looking forward to finally hear what it sounds like in the end.

Top
#1985191 - 08/29/08 09:33 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
GH05T Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Adding a question to a question here, if all the walls are going to be trapped to prevent standing waves, early reflection, etc., would the ceiling be a candidate for deflection/diffusion in order to utilize otherwise wasted sound to fill the room more evenly? I'm in a similar situation.


Edited by GH05T (08/29/08 09:36 AM)
Edit Reason: I can't spell
_________________________
I'm not an acoustic engineer, but I play one on the internet.

Top
#1985231 - 08/29/08 11:12 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: GH05T]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Diffusion on a ceiling makes sense 1) if the ceiling is high, and 2) not at loudspeaker reflection points.

--Ethan

Top
#1986457 - 09/02/08 03:59 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
GH05T Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Thanks, that'll contribute greatly to my planning phase. Could you please quantify "high"; is 8 foot too short to benefit?
_________________________
I'm not an acoustic engineer, but I play one on the internet.

Top
#1987033 - 09/03/08 09:22 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: GH05T]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Yeah, an 8 foot ceiling needs absorption. Maybe if you had 15 feet... \:D

--Ethan

Top
#1988016 - 09/05/08 12:47 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I've got an awfull lot of traps to be building over the next three weeks by the look of it then <wry smile> damn my 12'!

Top
#1988829 - 09/08/08 03:23 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
GH05T Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Does the fact that I'm a really short guy figure into this? \:\)
_________________________
I'm not an acoustic engineer, but I play one on the internet.

Top
#1989828 - 09/10/08 10:41 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: GH05T]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello Ethan,
Thanks for the advice so far - it is much appreciated. The building of the traps and the incorporation of many of them into the ceiling is due to start in the next week or so.
I went to the suppliers today of the rigid fibreglas panels, and they have panels of 'RW6' @ 145Kg per M^3, which I propose to use for most of the infill in the panels and some of the boundary traps @4" thick(rear corners and the ceiling / roof interface)
They also have to order and have offered to get for me panels that are 200 Kg per M^3 (!) as I said the more mass the better... I have thought these may prove to be rather usefull for the front corners and front ceiling / wall interface? Is this too heavy though? 4" of this is going to be the equivalent of an awful lot of the '703'!


Edited by Steve2701 (09/10/08 10:43 AM)

Top
#1990194 - 09/11/08 08:09 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
200 kg/m3 is very dense. I've never tried anything that dense so I can't say for sure. It's probably okay though.

Top
#1990195 - 09/11/08 08:10 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
200 kg/m3 is very dense. I've never tried anything that dense so I can't say for sure. It's probably okay though.

Top
#2012948 - 11/16/08 09:27 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well it started some weeks ago - fairly easy to do, but takes a while. The ceiling is being constructed entirely as a trap ( see photos) with the entire ceiling / wall join being also 100% trapped. This juction has not been easy to work with as I have some roof truss ties (2" thick steel bars) which are very much in the way at the front of the room - but this has hopefully been overcome with a very large trap - photos of that when its done.
The ceiling is made of engineered 'I' beams, 12" high, so th 4" rockwool sits between these, and each cell is completely sealed. Yes, I have used a LOT of caulk doing this job (100 tubes & counting)but I want it to completely correct to start with - I cant afford to go back and rectify problems later.
On top of each slab of rockwool sits 2"x2" timber, sealed and screwed to the joists. This forms the air gap. On top of the 2x2 sits a sealed and screwed piece of 5/8 plasterboard (drywall), then this is topped with 6" of 'fluffy fibreglass, and finally sealed with caulked and screwed 3/4 plywood. I hope this is going to work...

Most of the panels are made to reflect highs with Kraft paper stuck to the facing of the slabs - with this much trapping I figured I could kill the room rather easily, and as it is intended to be a nice office / listening room, dead is not what I wanted.
Some pics to date :-











Top
#2035647 - 01/22/09 02:15 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well its been a while so I thought I'd post a quick up-date and a few pics.
With a holiday over the christmas season, followed by a week at CES in Vegas, then a bout of (very bad!) man flu - progress has been painfully slow on this project.

At last the ceiling was finished and fully sealed off. Boy did the last bit going in make a difference to the sound of the room!



All of the exposed white timber will be clad in natural oak over the next week or so..

Then the framing out to get rid of those pesky building ties once and for all began.



This will of course be 'mirrored' on the opposite wall to keep symetry.
Then the filling with rockwool begins - this is going to be a fairly serious bass trap - 2.5 cubic metres (per side) of rockwool had better have an effect!



At last some colour starts to appear in the room...



More to come, but I feel the home straight is now in sight.


Edited by Steve2701 (01/22/09 02:29 PM)

Top
#2035650 - 01/22/09 02:26 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
As another quick note - some on here have struggled to find just what to face the rockwool with instead of the 'frk' that is not available in some places.
Here in the UK I have used plain rockwool, then covered one of the faces with simple 'Kraft Paper' which is fairly easy to obtain from a packaging supplier. This is fine for most instances, but when 'bright' fabric was to used as the outer a white facing was needed.
Much head scratching ensued as white 'Kraft' is not generally available and would be a special order from a paper mill - ouch time on the wallet. A very, very simple solution came to mind. I went to my local decorating wholesaler and asked for some thick lining paper. Perfect! 750mm wide, 20m long roll, and the thickness of thin card - and very white! This is what is behind the coloured panels in the photos to provide reflection of mid/high frequencies.
Hope this is of use to you guys - should this go into the source for local suppliers? Happy to do so if you think helpfull.
Cheers.


Edited by Steve2701 (01/22/09 02:28 PM)

Top
#2035984 - 01/23/09 11:48 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Yes, almost any heavy paper or card stock will work fine.

Top
#2056780 - 03/22/09 04:20 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
So the route from this



to this



Seems to have taken an absolute age - a snail could have worked faster - but illness and available time have had an unfair advantage.
Anyways, I seem to be keeping Knauff insulation in business at the moment, as every trap you see here is filled solid with 705 or at least it's equivalent, & trust me, that is a lot of rockwool. Had a bit of fortune in finding my stockist having a stock clearout and about to put a load of rockwool into a skip (it never made it to the skip..) and also a recent initiative by the government to get more folk buying insulation saw standard rolls of insulation fibreglass going for £3.50 per 1.2m high roll. In it's wrapped / compressed form this was very close to 705 so some 20 rolls were purchased for a bargain price. The fun part was keeping it compressed by using our box strapping machine to put straps up each roll every 12" or so. Then getting all the plastic wrapping off without dislodging the wraps. This did produce rolls that vary slightly in desity from less to more from the outside > in as it does expand slighty when the wrapping is removed - these have been used to fill some of the traps. Photos of these will follow as the cameras batteries died.

This centre trap



is 1.2m square and is at 35 degrees to the wall. Faced with cotton cloth over thin card, and the base is still 11' from the floor - which should give some idea to scale.

The terrible roof ties are now truly hidden for ever, and the final bugbear of the thick beam is now finally being covered. This is not an easy task, and would have been better if it didnt need doing - but knowing just how bad a big beam running across a listening room can be, decided it had to go.






One question still sticks in my mind.
I have done this from the very begining, and have no idea just what difference (if any) all these traps have made on the room. Part of me realy wants to know how the room will measure when finally finished from the listening chair - but that would mean the purchase of a mic - (phantom power? -whats all that about!) pc programs and a heap of other stuff - would I be better off just knowing it will sound better than built without any traps?
Still that part of me wants some sort of a 'measured' answer I guess!


Edited by Steve2701 (03/22/09 04:24 PM)

Top
#2057060 - 03/23/09 10:31 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Nice!

As for measuring, it does not have to be expensive or difficult. Any of these microphones work well:

Comparison of Ten Measuring Microphones

Here's some recommended software:

ETF, Windows, $150

FuzzMeasure, Mac, $150

Room EQ Wizard, Windows and Mac and Linux, Freeware

This article explains how I use ETF, but the principles apply to all such programs.

--Ethan

Top
#2060141 - 04/01/09 02:32 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well I guess the inquisitive side of me will win out in the end & I will be buying that stuff - I'll try & make a list later & you can let me know if it's complete or not. The software looks easy enough for me to master - we will see!

A little bit more has been done to the room, starting with the righthand front corner trap, this is 9' high and 18" square (well, its metric equivalent) :-

Framing begins




Trial fit of some rockwool



Panels completed ready for final fit



Oh joy - more unwrapping of rockwool - truly not a fun task.
Needed to be done as the front pannels are all lined with paper.





Even though they have been tightly wrapped with wraps, they still expand a lot - so much that the panels dont want to fit any more... so some gentle persuausion needs to take place in the shape of 3x1 :-




and then you run out of timber, it's 4.55pm and you want to finish (sprayed with water to remove creases)



- but the next day -



Worked out what happened there - there is a max number of links per post and the above reached the limit - the rest are now below..



Edited by Steve2701 (04/02/09 10:44 AM)

Top
#2060144 - 04/01/09 02:37 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well I dont know whats happened there - I guess I ran outa room?

Top
#2060447 - 04/02/09 09:48 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Heh, looking good though! thu

Top
#2060471 - 04/02/09 10:41 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
War can now start on the rear third of the room - still plenty to make here -



Starting framing out -







Then adding more panels and filling full of 705...







The rear corner trap will be fun (as is now nearly done, but more pics (if you want to see?) can follow.

This room had better sound good..


Top
#2061193 - 04/04/09 12:59 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hi again,
No pics this time as I left the camera at work & I've had a bottle of wine with dinner - so they can wait a while.
Back wall is now framed out, two top corner traps built and lights are fitted inside them. 4 more large wall/ceiling traps built with 4" 120kg rockwool to help make the RFZ, so only two more traps to build and i'm done at ceiling height. That then leaves first reflection points and the walls. Oh -and some wiring in of sockets and desk building.

Ethan, I have tried to list here what I 'assume' I will need to measure the room acoustically :-

Computer + one of the suggested programs.
Microphone + stand.
Connecting cable from mic to pc (help needed here please - what exactly do I need or does the mic come with one? Its way outside of my usual work remit so I dont know.)
What is the 'Phantom power' supply i've been reading about for a mic - is one needed?

I 'think' that is what I need?
I have read the links several times now so I hope to get a hang of it quickly.

Yet more hands on learning to be had I guess, I wont permanently fix the wall traps till measurements are taken to see the best placement - as I'm going to the expense of getting this stuff!

PS - fibreglass rash/itch is now taking its toll on my arms and face, no matter about gloves and respirator - fun or what.
The room is looking good though - and I just ordered my speakers to go in it, so it now has to be done as a matter of urgency.

Top
#2061283 - 04/05/09 08:27 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
So a day spent framing out yet more traps produced the following:-
Rear R/H corner trap built, wired with two lights, and filled with 705, then faced with more fabric covered 705.







Then the rest of the rear wall was started on...








One more piece to screw in then the rockwoll can start to go in.

If you decide to do as I have, be prepared to buy loads and loads of this:-



I'm certain it allcomes from the same place (3M?) but the price varies greatly! This is something like tin number 45!
Having said that there is rather a lot of 'traps' in this room now.

Yes, I am aware that the two rear corner traps have effectively now created another two areas that need trapping below them, but the plans are already in place for what to do there - just needs to be slightly later for now.

Top
#2061648 - 04/06/09 10:47 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
I have tried to list here what I 'assume' I will need to measure the room acoustically :-


Yes, exactly.

--Ethan

Top
#2062743 - 04/08/09 03:40 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Another few evenings work and we have a lot more done.

Another panel takes shape. Cut to size, faced with polyester to hide the colour, and then mitred to fit.










Rockwool mysteriously changes colour in the UK?
Yup, gone is the usual yellow green to be replaced by 'burnt straw' Why - your guess is as good as mine. Definately needs covering though as it shows through most material badly.



A few tools that have proven indespensible.



And best of all - the Stanley 'Fatmax' knife - with 'insulation' blade.



Hopefully the last thing a pesky bouncing soundwave sees before deciding that the great soundscape in the sky sounds like a good place to be - the inside of a trap before stuffing with yet more rockwool.



Here we go again:-



Stuffed solid with 705





Top
#2062747 - 04/08/09 03:42 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
another 5 metres of traps completed.







so Easter should provide a perfect time to completey finish all the ceiling / wall boundaries.
We will see.

Top
#2064161 - 04/13/09 03:11 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
So Easter has been and gone (why - when, I missed it somewher? Hey, I did get Sunday off to have fun with the family)
Easy to press on when the phone doesn't keep ringing and pulling you away from the job in hand.

Two more ceiling / wall traps go in



Then time to start on the final bit - that pesky beam is about to disapear for good - hopefully.



The beam has a total of (roughly) 10 traps on it.



& finishing it all off nicely takes an absolute age - but well worth the effort.



A little more blinding of the wooden I beams with oak, a few more lights to go up and tat particular phase is completed.
That just leaves the walls to be sorted.
Hopefully some neat ideas for that shortly.



I'm happy that this part is now done, and the project appears to be nearing completion.

Top
#2065205 - 04/16/09 12:19 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Quick question for you Ethan,
I am about to start on some traps for the 'back wall' which will be behind the listening position and also some for the first reflection points along the side walls.
From a post some time ago I have some plans that put the low bass wood fronted absorber inside a heavy duty mid/high absorber - this makes for a fairly thick panel but I have the room. Is this a worthwhile option, or should I just stick with the standard 3-4" thick 705 in a trap for these applications?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Room is 6m long, 5m wide, and as you've seen 4.1m high.
Front wall will be kept reflecting as you suggest in the faq etc, but some traps will be on there as we need to put up some 'logos' which will be printed on canvas, and then mounted onto a couple of traps.

Top
#2065414 - 04/16/09 09:59 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
I'd use rigid fiberglass on the rear wall. If you can make it six inches thick that will be better. And a foot thick is better still if possible.

--Ethan

Top
#2066293 - 04/19/09 07:36 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
So the last couple of days has seen me playing with lots and lots of connectors and a fair few wires:-
This is just lighting distribution, after it's been dimmed/controlled from the main board!



But the room is now truly coming into shape





Plans almost complete for those rear wall traps and the first reflection points - that is going to be wallet emptying if I go for the 12" (2x6") rockwool option... boy, that stuff aint cheap!

Top
#2068021 - 04/24/09 09:59 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Not so much apparent progress this week as lots of tiny things sorted, as well as running the main businesses, but some interesting plans are now set in stone.



The first reflection points on this wall plus its facing one are going to be 6 traps (three each side) 1.2m high by 600mm wide. 4" solid rs100 (705 equavalent) - but they need to be movable along the wall due to various speakers / positions being in use. This will be achieved by making up some 2.4m runners out of 25mm thick MDF for the top, and some fixing panels along the bottom. Pictures of this will help to explain:-



Note te 45' angle cut into the upper runner.
When set in place it will become clear - I hope.

Started to knock together the oak window frame - opposite which is going to be a matching diffusor board as per Ethans plans on here. Bendy MDF is going to be usefull here I think - way easier to use than 1/4 ply.




My wood supply is now much depleted and needs a restock to make all the final traps - 6 for the side reflections and 4 for the rear refection free zone.




Put the HVAC unit into place to mark the piping and ductwork.
tomorrow is going to be interesting as I have to cu a 90mm hole through 31" of solid victorian brickwork. Diamond core drill sorted, pain killers for the tennis elbow already to go...

& I just discovered that we didnt put in any wiring for the HVAC control unit (I didnt know we were getting a programmer unit with it). Some headscratcing going on as I don't want visible wiring to it at all - everything else is hidden so far. I have a feeling holes and string are to be needed, and a few mice?

One good thing about this model is it a 'heat pump' so as well as cooling (air con) it can act as a heater (aircon in reverse) so for every 1Kw I put in I get three out on cool & 5 out(!) on heating. It also runs very quietly at 22db. Its on a seperate phase to everything else so it aint going to upset the mains either!

Hope to be back over the weekend with another update.

Top
#2068028 - 04/24/09 10:10 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Looking good!

Top
#2068365 - 04/25/09 12:26 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
So the day started with a job I will admit to having been put off several times due to the fact I knew it was going to be a right 'pig' to do. Drilling a 90mm hole through the walls was never going to be pleasant.
So to the hire shop to collect all the gubbins - huge drill, diamond core, extension piece, transformer, water pump...To drill through the aircrete block took all of twenty seconds - with plenty of dust...
The air gap took considerably less.
Then, an hour of patient drilling (this thing is heavy and needs full support at a 3 degree downward angle (to allow water condensate drainage) along with a lot of help from my brother in law - produced a near perfect result. Didnt even wreck the outside render, just cut through it.
Looks like nothing in the photo.







Then on to getting that 'other wire' into place as well. Some heavy bolts, gravity and a lot of string did the trick! (no mice this time)




Then on with the next big one for the day - starting to put up the support for the side traps. 1" thick MDF is very heavy - an 8 x 4 sheet is not something to move by youself - let alone saw up

This is just 2.4m x 150mm and being held precariously in place by a sigle 3" screw ready for marking for ten frame ties.



Then the tie holes were pilot drilled, whole thing taken down, correct size holes drilled, anchors inserted, then back up it goes to have the ten huge screws put into place. The screwdriver for these is so big it is turned with a 15mm open ended spanner!

Holes then filled and ready for rubbing down.



Then finished off the window frame, started on the blinding of the door lintel, and tidied up the light switch.



Yes, this corner is going to get more trapping in to it - in a while.

Time for lunch...


Top
#2068371 - 04/25/09 12:41 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
The job for the afternoon was something I have actually been looking forward to starting. The Diffusor panel for opposite the window.
Bendy MDF anyone?



It's secret revealed:-



Whilest it is fun to do, it is a swine to work with, as it just wont stop still! Trying to cut it on the table saw by myself was hilarious. Yes, realy hilarious. It was so much fun I decided to do it again, and again...

So the diffusor starts to take shape:- Ok so not exactly the shape I wanted,



So in goes a centre support panel.



That centre piece is 8" high - it had better be right as it aint coming out...

And after finally getting it (about) right (without a huge amount of maths and 3.142 stuff the measurements were never going to be perfect with this stuff) trying to get it to stay still for fixing / gluing? Ever tried to work with wood that wants to be jelly?




Thats one side glued up, the other can wait for tomorrow, then it can be primed ready for an interseting paint finish I have in mind.
We will see.

PS - I do need to apologies for the mixed measuring system I seem to be using. Two things here. I was one of those kids who went to school when 'metrication' was introduced (anyone else remember that?) So I do actually use both in my working life, depending on just what i'm up to. I am also aware that you folk over the pond still use imperial, so I do try and slip into that when I can. Just 90mm doesn't have a nice equivalent. Hope you dont get to confused.

Top
#2068548 - 04/26/09 08:44 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A couple of more hours today saw a few things happen.
First off, after so much yesterday, I decided I needed to use that tool that no self respecting DIY person should be without in his garage - the fork lift truck.

This raised the diffusor panel to a height that saved my back and kness no end.



Panel taking shape nicely, and being sealed with white paint for starters.



Then sanded the trap holder and painted that so it looks like it grew there..



Then on with the decorative paint for the panel.



The rest of the day was taken with having a good clear up, dust removal and tool finding expedition having put so many down just where I cant find them again (age?)

Started to line whats left to do with oak, and put some skirting round the room.

Thats it for now - need some wine and food - in that order!

Top
#2068561 - 04/26/09 09:19 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Wow, this is all really great Steve! Thanks for going to all the trouble to document and photograph your progress here. thu

--Ethan

Top
#2068776 - 04/27/09 03:57 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
andrep Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1
hallo,

writing from Portugal.my first post here after sometime reading the various threads. Great forum and special greetings to Ethan Winer for sharing his knowledge.

have one question about the type of vertical corner basstraps built by Steve2701.

My question regards comparing these with the simple ones made with a fiberglass or rockwool panel across the corner.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each type and what to pay attention to when building the same type Steve2701 built. This type is less documented in the www.

thanx, all the best

Top
#2068791 - 04/27/09 05:46 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: andrep]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hi Andrep,
I doubt there will be a whole heap of difference between the two - I just took 'the easy route' and built square ones and filled them solid - as per photos.
It was for me much easier to do (and I had the space to do it in) as it seemed to be a lot of hassle cutting timber to 45degree angles to keep it all looking / faced the same where the rockwoll meets the wall. Mine are 750mm (18")square and 9feet (3m) tall, so thats a a fair bit of rockwool in the corner.
From what I've gathered from here the total amount of the corner and its volume is the more important issue.
It was also very important to me to have the best finish I could obtain in the room, this is what I ended up with.
I will post some more photos of the totally finished item later this week when some mor finishing timber is delivered!

Top
#2068946 - 04/27/09 02:08 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Staying over for a couple of hours after work saw a mock up of the hanging first reflection points traps being made



I have designed these to be movable but firmly fixed when in place. An 8mm handwheel nut will hold them in place at the bottom, while the top opposing 45 degree angles seem to work rather well and look fairly neat.
A small amount of 25mm at the bottom acts as a standoff and resting place for the bottom of the trap.







This mock up will allow for precise layout of the bottom runner / support.

An hour or so to spare so one of the front bass traps decides to become covered in oak -

Bare to start:-



Oak ready for cutting up - looks criminal to cut this up



Mdf demands serious dust extraction and air filtration - great stuff - but dust not exactly so.



First of many cuts




& nearly a whole sheet later



& A little bit of skirting to finish


Tomorrow will see the thin edges finished and the centre 'trunk' being made to look smarter..

Then oak angle hides all the exposed edges.

Top
#2069005 - 04/27/09 07:07 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Frank2 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 229
Loc: Montreal, Canada
that is all looking good! bravo!

Top
#2072355 - 05/07/09 01:44 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Frank2]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Its been a good few days since I was able to get back into the room to press on, a big trade show saw us working on stock for it, going to it and then putting everything away after the event..

So, a few evenings late at work saw the side wall diffusor (for opposite the window) finally looking like it's almost ready



& the front corner bass traps took on a waist each and were lined with finishing oak panells (this takes forever - lining up grain and trying to make everything look right is not something that can be done in a hurry and got right.



Two hours on each side equalls a finish that I am happy with.



Then we found time later this afternoon to finally get the diffusor into it's new home and fully finished. This was not a job for the feint hearted!



It doesn't look that big now it's in place, but it is nearly 6' tall and 4' wide. It was not exactly a light object either.

The next week will see frenetic work going on as the room simply must be finished by the end of May - new toys arrive in a few weeks time, and work is set to go crazy mid way through June.
Only a dozen or so traps to be built and all the final wiring to be done!

Top
#2074085 - 05/12/09 02:43 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
The 'frenetic' work had to start in earnest today, as confirmation arrived that interesting packages start to arrive on Friday - so this room needs finishing fast!
Not seen here yet - but just found on the hard drive - a picture of what was just a floor some 14 months ago :-



The room needed to be fully emptied and made good for a meeting of a dozen or so folks over the weekend, which happened and went well, and gave an idea of what the room will eventually look like :-






But after such a good clean out I decided I was missing all the clutter and decided to put it all back today just for the fun of it (either that or I needed to put up the rear wall absorbers and get the final finishing of cladding to the ceiling panells)



Making the carcases for the traps began





They only need to be fairly basic as they will be clad in oak next to hide their construction details



Then the cladding can start





and finally the oak angle is cut ready to hide the edges of the rockwool infill



This lot will begin to be hung on the rear wall tomorrow, and some very special traps will begin to take shape as well.
This has been one of the most interesting projects I have ever set out on, and certainly one that has taught me more than I thought it would. I keep reading so many interesting tips on here (some I wish I had a few months ago - but hey, whats done is done!) that I try to incorporate into what is happening right now.
Will post more over the next few days..

Top
#2074348 - 05/13/09 08:36 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Keep 'em coming Steve!

Top
#2075439 - 05/15/09 02:33 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
As promissed a few quick updates.
I managed to finish two of the rear bass traps, and at a weight of 17kg each, plus another 11kg of rockwool, they are not the lightest, (or smallest!) items to hang of a wall - 10' up in the air.. The scaffold tower helped, but it was amusing yet again.
The photos dont show just how big these things are, and a small change of plan was decided upon once these were in place:-



A further two were going to be hung horizontally / centrally below these, but that plan has now been shelved as they will simply not look right at all.
Instead one will be hung vertically in the centre of them and below, then another two 'specials' will be hung either side of it - one of which will be in front of the door when in use. These will now be made next week.
In the meantime two rather large (ok, huge) wooden crates arrived today with the first of the goodies for the room in them







They won't be coming out of these till the room is finished, but I cant wait to hear what they are going to sound like when in place.
Any ideas on how to get them upstairs? 105Kg (231lbs) apiece should prove to be entertaining, at least for a while.
Sorry - they are Dynaudio Confidence C4.

So all hell breaks loose and yet more traps get made; I could do this with my eyes shut now!
Even ran out of clamps so had to call in the specials for extra duty.



& another 22kg (45lb) of rockwool is readied t go up on the wall.



And another facing piece takes shape. I think I've been here before too.





While this is going on I'm also sorting out the mains supply for the room, with some decisions being made on what goes where, and what feeds what - more on that if anyone wants to know at a later date.

This weekend will see a little bit more done, but real work has to take place as someone decided to place an order yesterday that needs fitting on Monday, ... so much for warning!

Top
#2075870 - 05/17/09 10:53 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Another weekend at work, including a full 9 hours today - means a little bit more got completed.
Some of the work was on the electrics - (I'll put these on a seperate post) while this isn't the forum to discuss this - I will just show you what I'm up to and what goes on 'juice wise' for the room.
So yesterday the centre rear wall panel finally got hung :-



& back today saw the first of four 'specials' begin to take shape.



Those with sharp eyes will notice that this is very different in size to the standard 1.2m x 600mm... infact it's a very odd 74.2mm wide.

While this was being allowed time for the glue to set - the electrics took over. (see next post)

Then, this afternoon, it got put into place. Rather than just put it into permanent place, I needed this one to be moveable, so some old woodwork techniques were called into use.
When was the last time you saw a plug and screw morticer used? Me too!

One for the top, and one as a support:-



& on the rear, studs cut out to cover the screw holes.



Me 'n Heath robinson would get on well together don't you think?




So finally screwed into place
It's position is decided by the distance from the panel to it's left, and the fact that a 'free standing' unit will cover the door when serious listening is taking place.




Time to start stuffing it with rockwool - each piece needed to be cut to size - a bit of a jigsaw in the end. As it's designed to be 6" thick, two pieces of 3" thick are placed one on top of the other, a total of 12 pieces in the end used to fill the carcase completely.





Then covered in polyester to provide some soft fill (2 layers)



Then as this time I need a dark background - some black fibreglass porous cloth (as used in weed control in gardens) covers the polyester



& finally (drum roll please)
A rather special printed polyester cover - yes, it's acoustically transparent, well, very nearly.
& your going to have to see the next post as I've run out of allowed photo space on this particular post!

Top
#2075871 - 05/17/09 10:54 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK


I think I can call it a 'Music Room' now!
I have a few other of these fabric posters - The best of Pink Floyd, the famous ladies in PF's 'Back catalogue' then I have two black & white posters in the shape of an original Dead Can Dance poster and a beautiful art print of BB King. That is going to keep me busy for an hour or two.
This will be fully stretched and edge finished tomorrow - one to allow the creases to fall out overnight, and two, it was 4.30 on a Sunday afternoon and dinner was nearly ready!


Dog walking duties now - so will post the next install shortly.



Edited by Steve2701 (05/17/09 11:26 AM)

Top
#2075902 - 05/17/09 12:07 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
The electrics.
It's not just you recording guys that need nice clean electric - us lot that listen to your efforts need it just as much - but that is often overlooked or even poo poo'ed.
I am seriously lucky here, as out in the street we have an 11,000volt supply. In the yard, 15m from my door is a massive transformer that just feeds our five units. 11,000v is transformed down to 415v three phase and fed into each individual unit.
I have kept one of these phases 'clean' and just for use with the 'HiFi'. For the near future I have two massive balancing transformers being sorted. One @30Kva (30,000 volt/amps) and one @ 25Kva. The larger will just feed the power amp(s) and the smaller will feed all the ancilaries - cd plyer, preamp, vinyl spinner etc.
The clean feed is fed to the main music room ditribution board via 10mm^ (^=square) SWA cable (Steel wire armoured) I had this done on purpose, as the steel armour is grounded to earth at the supply end, and terminated into a plain 'stuffing gland' the the other. This effectively makes the armour into an RFI shield. Well, at least that's the theory...
The distribution board will feed 14 seperate spurs via individual sockets and seperate circuit breakers - all either 6mm^ or 4mm^ rather than the standard 2.5mm^
Overkill - possibly, but I am aiming at the lowest possible impedance on the supply lines. (I wanted a 25mm^ feed but the sparky just looked at me in despair when I requested that!)
All of these individual feeds will be in braided sheathed flex, so again, RFI will be rejected.
Terminating all this braided screen is a right royal PITA but will be worth it long term, hopefully!
After being fully tested the DB has a path to earth of a mere 0.04ohms - I wish I had that at home..
To the business end :-
A rather full DB, only five in place, 9 more to go!



These two are 6mm^ superflex and feed the front centre of the room - two because maybe one day when I win the lottery I can go mono-block (PLEASE). A third will be added later in the form of a 13A plug socket. This pair of wires will be fed into the room & terminated in IEC sockets which can then feed directly into the power amps - that gets rid of two nasty electrical interfaces in one go! (Plug/socket and plug/fuse) Legal and fully checked by certified sparkies! Please remember that in the UK the fuse in the plug protects the supply CABLE - here the circuit breaker is doing that and the cable is fully able to take anything the breaker can give it before it trips.





After over an hour of very carful drilling with a taper drill, and 0.5mm before it was finished - this happened.



Lets say I wasn't exactly pleased.
So I went back downstairs and did a bit more to the 'Stairway' bass trap..

Decided that I could make one better myself - so here we go



Cut and marking out to take the glands. Thats a magnifying centre punch you can see sat on top of the laminate - usefull with black lines on a dark grey background.



These glands only have a 7mm backthread, so I need to counter bore the 20mm thick laminate rather substantially, not a problem as I use some custom cutters in my job..



15 minutes with a pillar drill and taper drill sees a finished item ready for black french polishing of the edges.



Mine Vs a shop purchased plastic jobby...



& finally sealed into place with intumesant acoustic sealant..
A little later the bare cable will be over fitted with coulured braid and have its plug fitted.



Having seen how to make these, and how good it looks - means I only have another thirteen to make. Oh my... what have I started again?

Will this room ever be finished?

More nice boxes arrive in 4 days time.

My wife would like to see me at home once in a while..

Top
#2076299 - 05/18/09 03:35 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
shortyedwards Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/09
Posts: 8
Loc: NY, USA
Can't tell you how inspiring this thread is. My hat is off to you for the fine detail with which you have loaded up your studio construction but also this thread. Thank you - and I'll continue to watch in the background.

Top
#2078348 - 05/24/09 02:20 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: shortyedwards]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Not a huge amount to show this week, as not much time was available to get into the room.

Most of the work is now 'fine detail' finishing off, but without it the room will never look right.

So 'Stairway' trap is given its finished look


Then that beautifully tidy room of a couple of weeks ago is completely filled again.



Finally the very last pieces of glue lam beams are cloaked with finish oak



Plans are now finalised on what to do with these two back corners




And my wife has veryy kindly made curtains for the window - which will be fitted next week.

One thing I would do differently if ever I do this again is not cut these support timbers at 45' They may look good, but boy are they a challenge to cover.




Several 45' cuts, a couple of 90's and ten minutes on a flat bed sander turns this into a cover :-






And finally a nice cover piece.


Say goodbye to the scaffold! It will only go back up if something is drastically wrong or I made a major****



So next week has the final first reflection traps to be made (x6) a couple more specials, and finish the electrics.

You will see the progress later on.

Thanks for the encouragement guys, it is appreciated.

Top
#2080558 - 05/31/09 10:03 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well this room simply must be finished for Wednesday - as I need it as an office!
So some decisions were made, and anything that can be added later will now be - but anything 'fixed' in the room simply must be finished - now. I guess some late night wiring up is on the cards..

So some work on the hanging wires starts -





From left to right those are a single socket from the office 'ring main' which also is attached to the phase that runs the freezers and the a/c, so should be considered 'dirty' - going to be fun investigating this.

The next three are plain 6mm^ twin & earth singlr spurs, each to their own individual fuse - and clean phase.

The final three are again 6mm^ but this time shielded - again single individual runs and fuses each.

Time to make another couple of cable outlests as before




& then drilling the final correct size hole with a taper drill



Then making a mess of my nice clean wall and floor





Then put down as much flooring as possible, moved the speakers - checked the lenght of the cable (phew!)





So the front of the room is finished, and the rear 3' is still to be done...

More shortly - and some late night wiring.

Top
#2081473 - 06/02/09 11:08 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Anticipation gave way big style to impatience yesterday as looking at so many nice new boxes / toys and not having any tunes took over.
A 'small rig' was very much jury rigged into service - breaking just about every rule in the 'how to set up a system' book...





What with running off a trailing extension lead sockets, boxes everywhere, no chair - no power sockets, something had to give.
So I finally got home very late last night after wiring in all of the remaining sockets, fitting the supplies to the three phase, checking every socket for polarity, checking every fuse was correct, finally, the system looked like this as I left



Lilly the dog had completely given up on getting home, so had gone to sleep in every place possible that would be in the way (how do they do that?) from at the bottom of stepladders to right where I wanted to stand, but the look of consternation on her face, followed by racing up and barking at a stereo image of a ladies voice (nothing exciting, just a system test disc to check polarity of speakers) had to be seen to be believed - great fun.
So how did it sound?
Well if you have ever powered up a new system from cold, in a new room, where absolutely every cable and connection is new - you will have some idea - not great, but with huge potential.
After 5 hours of constant running and fine tuning the speakers slightly - awsome is a reasonable word for now.
Lots more work today as the main rig begins to take shape, and speaker positioning continues.
Then I better fit that door, build the other traps and order something to sit on!

Oh, & fitting the rest of the carpet may be a reasonable idea as well.


Top
#2081815 - 06/03/09 07:51 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Klook Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 31
Hey Steve,
your room is a dream for audiophiles like me, both for acoustics and equipment.
If you see the topic of my room, I started listening without the bass traping. After the side-front wall trapping, it seemed that I have removed the equipment and put new gear.
I don't have top class equipment like yours so I can imagine the fidelity you have there (so that your dog start barking to the singer). By the way, I don't see treatment for side-walls reflections.
Congratulations for your amazing space and all the report here.
Another thing, in my country I'm part of an audiophile group and we discuss a lot about what is the most important part of the audio system. Some says it's the speaker, other the pre-amplifier. Now I can say for sure that it is the acoustics.

regards!
Leonardo

Top
#2081839 - 06/03/09 11:30 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Klook]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Good morning Leonardo,
Thank you for those words.
The equipment is very nice indeed, but thirty years of collecting and some decent fortune has got me to here. I also used to dream of a space like this - some hard work has eventually paid off.
Side wall / early reflection traps are all downstairs awaiting assembly.
Three each side to be hung on those runners you see.
Then another two but covered in music posters (BB King & Dead Can Dance) go under the rearmost wall lights.
Then (hopefully) finally two more hung horizontally above the first reflection point traps covered in the designs of Pink Floyd printed on polyester fabric - check HERE to see more of those.
Finally going to get the 'big rig' set up today, but it cant be in it's correct position yet as some custom length cables are being constructed for me and will arrive next week.

Then I really must finish the flooring and put that door on!

With the experimentation I have done, you are 100% correct in saying room acoustics have the most effect on a 'listening room' but in the vast majority of domestic situations (lets face it, that is where most listening occurs)compromise simply has to be made - most familys wouldnt like my room as a main living room! For one thing a flat screen tv is missing...
The next most important thing (and here I can prove a point, but you would need to come here and listen to understand) is a pair of very well set up speakers - not the 'source' components that most everyone else insits must come first.

Top
#2082096 - 06/04/09 01:56 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Klook Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 31
Steve,
what you mean with the "very well set up" speakers?

thanks
Leonardo

Top
#2082387 - 06/05/09 08:50 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
most familys wouldnt like my room as a main living room!


I would! grin

Top
#2082390 - 06/05/09 08:54 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Klook]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello Leonardo,
Not easy to explain in so many words, but I refer to well set up speakers as being in their absolute optimum position to give of their finest possible sound, not being placed where they 'must go' with respect to other room furnishings / televisions / cabinetts etc - ie - they come first - everything else must work around them. This is all but impossible to achieve and keep the rest of the family happy!
What they sit on, how they are 'toed in' distance from rear & side walls is all vitally important, and takes a lot of listening and experimentation to get absolutely correct.
The book of rules that says speakers need to be 'x' distance apart and 'y' distance from the rear wall then toed in by 3.75 degrees, with the listening position being 3.87302m from the centreline of the speakers will invariably be correct for one room in the world only - the one that they were sat in when that set of rules were written...
We have just spent the last three hours playing with mine, moving them an inch at a time, and we are getting something close now - but enjoying the music as we do so.
Hope this helps.

Top
#2084954 - 06/11/09 02:52 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Its been a while since my last up-date, so just a few quick lines so that you can see what has gone on this week. It will probably come as no great surprise to read that I am still not 100% finished - but we are a lot closer.

After setting up the small rig, and having some fun with some tunes - the big rig was set out ready for assembly.


& beneath this lot is a custom rack that needs re-assembly.



Three hours of patient work sees this appear



along with all the sphagetti



A bit of fine tuning and clearing up - and I can at last see what it is looking like.



It wont stay like this for long - the top 4 components will reside to the left hand side when a few cables arrive - leaving just the amp between the speakers. That should look better.

Time to press on with the back of the room..

Top
#2084960 - 06/11/09 03:03 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
The rear of the room gets the attention now.
The rest of the flooring goes down, and the skirting board is finished off - then its time to sort the rear corner traps.





Due to location of the window, and curtains, an angled trap was out of the question, so solid 8" thick was decided upon.
This is supported on small oak shelves.

My warehouse is now a total wreck and needs a lot of attention!


A corner trap takes shape.



Will I ever stop buying this stuff?


up goes the first trap and the curtain..



And the other corner - somewhat wrinkly for now - but that will soon be sorted.



Thats it for today - I'll take a few more when we are done with finishing the rear traps and start on the assembly of the first reflection points.
It was very noticable that these corner traps had a marked effect on the sound in the room - more than any others so far.

Top
#2085342 - 06/12/09 08:08 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Quote:
It was very noticable that these corner traps had a marked effect on the sound in the room - more than any others so far.

Not surprising at all. thu

--Ethan

Top
#2085506 - 06/12/09 01:44 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Trust me when I say that part of me would love to hear this room without any treatment then add it bit by bit - but that was never going to be possible.
The addition of just two 8" thick panells had an effect that was immediately apparent to the room - possibly because of everything else in there - possibly not, I have no idea as it's not in my usual realm of work.
It did prove to be extremely interesting though.
What effect the first reflection points have will also be apparent very soon - my plan is to add them in opposing pairs as they are assembled.
What is becoming more apparent as the room and the system progress is that everything is just becoming clearer and clearer.
As of yet I simply cannot say what is happening where. Some components are brand spanking new, all were stone cold but now - 10 days on of 24/7 playing should be begining to settle down. Every wire, connection, breaker etc was new and unused, so I still think time is needed for everything (including my hearing and perception) to settle correctly.
I have been in rooms that are all but 'dead' acoustically and have to say that I dont like them at all - almost sureal in their even being.
This room still seems to be far from dead, but it is exceedinly quiet, which is very peaceful. If it starts to approach dead then I will cease with the addition of traps - but I guess we have a ways to go there yet. Speech in the room is still very intelligible and not strained in any way, music just flows - from almost any position in there.
That is very un-expected.
The speakers are known to not be 'hot spot' specific, but their effect is becoming more enjoyable by the day.
The overall effect has been (and this always proves the point without fail) to completely re-visit my entire music collection, not just sit and listen to one genre for hours on end. I'm certain that those with varying collections and lots of discs know what I mean here - I just have to hear what 'that' track sounds like in here. I still have a few discs to play on that score yet.

Top
#2085946 - 06/14/09 08:44 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A quick hour or so at work allowed the rear corner traps to be 'topped & tailed' - making them look better, fix them where I want them and de wrinkle them.
So that appears to be that for the corners, First reflection points left to do, fit the door and program the lighting.








Top
#2086255 - 06/15/09 09:01 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Klook Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 31
Steve,
do you plan to burn in your system 24/7? I prefer to do that only when I'm listening to music, to follow each step of the burn in process. It's like to follow the grow up of our children.

You seem to be passing through the "New Collection Syndrome" and so am I. I'm not increasing my CD collection right now. I'm just re-listening CDs and taking advantage on that to do fine tuning of my system.

best regards
Leonardo

Top
#2086265 - 06/15/09 09:42 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Klook]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello Leonardo,
To be honest, I've been through enough system 'burn ins' to be not particularly worried about what it sounds like day by day for the first three weeks or so.
It has now been on 24/7 for nearly two weeks, and has settled down very nicely. Lets say it only gets better from here on in.
The power amp is a year or so old, so only really needed a good warm up, but with so many other components being new it's difficult to say what's doing what!
Going back up tonight to start the assembly of the FRP traps, and probably the freestanding one for the doorway as well.

My CD collection never seems to stop expanding - though I am listening to pleanty of old discs atthe moment.


Edited by Steve2701 (06/15/09 09:42 AM)

Top
#2088676 - 06/21/09 10:21 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Time with me has been, as ever, in short supply - part of one of my businesses is heavily linked to the UK fishing season, so that opening again on June 16th has obviously taken up large amounts of any that is available.
I have snatched the occasional hour here & there, and have been able to progress a little.

I decided that the FRP traps would be just the 600 x 1200mm and not have the extra additional 150mm to lock into position on the bottom. The main reason for this being that it would have meant buying yet another 3 sheets of 20mm MDF and would have produced a fair amount of waste.
As each one weighs in @ 24kK when complete, I couldn’t actually see them going far or vibrating in sympathy, so came up with an alternative – white ‘non marking rubber doorstops’…

These turned out to be 10mm short



So a little bit of 10mm MDF spacing cured that





And then the 45^ angle applied to the top





Then the rockwool put in, angle cut to size and glued / clamped up



Today being ‘Fathers day’ I was given a nice 3d metal sculpture by my girls – which got pride of place in the room





Then the first pair of FRP traps got hung into position



& from the listening chair



Now I have done hours and hours of listening in here, ( still got plenty of work to do – but the music simpy calls and I have to respond…)
But today something happened that I have not had in here yet.
I am not saying that the simple insertion of two more traps made this happen, as much as I am certain that fine tuning the seating position did it on it’s own either, - but, especially with the eyes closed and the lights in the ‘listening’ mode (yes, programmed them as well!) music now fills an arena in front of and to either side of me – almost in a huge arc if you will, and the speakers totally, completely and utterly disappear.
That is a very, very neat trick, considering their size.
Disc after disc I tried, and every time the same happened.
Now that’s a real result!
I was aware and have said that I could overkill the room with trapping – getting more and more detail – with less and less musical connection and emotion.
What has occurred is rather weird in that respect.
Emotion aplenty, detail to die for, soundstage that (has to be seen?) heard to understand the wittering in this post, and yet the room is still nowhere near ‘dead’ sounding.

So something is going right.
I honestly can’t say just what these two traps have done, as they went in along with some (very) new interconnect cables.
All I can say is I am absolutely gobsmacked with the overall results to date.

So still more to do this week, but this is getting to be very close to what I truly wanted.
I now know for certain that I want the room to be 3m longer, but that is absolutely impossible, and I am very happy to live with what I now have.

If it still gets better with 4 (7) more traps plus a (very) heavy door – I am hardly going to be upset!

Top
#2088867 - 06/22/09 06:20 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Excellent report. As for clear but not dead, my living room is the same way. The key is mid/high frequency absorption at the reflection points, but not necessarily everywhere else! From the last two photos above it looks like you plan to add a few more side-wall panels. That's a good idea given the size of the room and how far back you listen.

--Ethan

Top
#2089447 - 06/23/09 02:45 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello Ethan,
Thank you for those words. It was somewhat of a minefield that I was travelling through, and some extremely expensive mistakes would have been easy to make.
The size of room, ceiling height / construction / what to cover with paper etc to keep the room 'live' all had to be considered and put into plan after all of that. It has taken some 17 months to date, but very well worth it.
Yes, I have 4 more FRP traps to go in, and then one for in front for the door (freestanding design), and possibly 4 heavily covered picture traps (heavy paper artwork / photo prints) that can also go into place. I have the room, time is missing, and also I need to be certain that they are actually 'needed' in there when the main stuff is complete.

As I said - very interesting venture to date, learnt a lot and highly confident the result is going to be what I actually want!

Top
#2091154 - 06/28/09 10:08 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Yet another Sunday, and another weekend + Friday afternoon of bits and pieces being sorted, and also the last of the 'big jobs' got sorted.
First off, another two FRP traps were sorted over the week of evenings, and these got stuffed and hung on Friday afternoon / evening.



& from the 'listening seat' position



When up I did try and do some serious listening, but something weird was going on that I didn't understand.
I had a slight headache, my right ear was playing up (head cold on the way) and a bad morning at work.
All added up to a not nice music experience.
When the two additional traps went up everything seemed to 'close in'. the walls seemed to be 4' closer together, the ceiling too low - you get the feeling. Image seemed to collapse in on itself - and the frequency seemed very 'lumpy'
I am putting this down to the combination of my woes, the system playing up (still comparitively new) and a MASSIVE thunderstorm starting. Water was pouring out of the AirCon unit like a waterfall so humid was the unit.
So I left it and went away to start on something else.

Hanging the door. Not something I was looking forward to, having been 20+ years since I last hung one, and this one is huge - (the biggest commercially available) and being a fire door, not exactly light. Certainly too big for one person to mess with. But no-one else was available. So, laying out the hinges - thickness 2,9mm..




Time then ran out so back later the next day.

Top
#2091158 - 06/28/09 10:18 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Feeling so much better the next day, The door was finally manouvered into position, hinges cut out in door frame, frame re-painted, door fettled and handles / lock fitted. Took in total 11/2 days - so long had it been since I last did this. Still, very happy with the end result. My arms now ache somewhat with moving such a heavy and odly sized item..

From the front of the room looking back



Now that's more like it!



& some pics of the programmed lighting

general on scene



Listening mode 1


listening mode 2



Work mode from front of room



That was enough for a weekend - so some time was spent in front of the system...


I should point out that some proper seating is currently under construction and being covered - that chair is press ganged into action for now!

Top
#2091161 - 06/28/09 10:25 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Did two more traps and a new door do anything for the room?
You better believe it!

Yet another leap forward.
The room can now be properly 'pressurised' by the amp - and I now can get to grips with what is going on exactly.
I have some more exciting times ahead I guess.
This afternoon, from Saint Saens, Sister Bliss, Peter Gabriel, Massive attack, Dead Can Dance, Albioni, Chung playing the four seasons - you have a clue as to what went on for an couple of hours.
Focus, musicality, expression, emotion, recording quality, all there to be experienced.
As for floor shaking bass - hmm - this is fun :-)
By the end of the session the sides of the amp were way to hot to touch - a great sign of someone having fun - and a system playing so clean that the volume can just go up and up and up...

Top
#2091420 - 06/29/09 11:31 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
This just gets better and better. thu

Top
#2095370 - 07/11/09 11:27 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well it’s been two weeks, and not much done I’m afraid.
I did sneak off on holiday for three days to the Goodwood Festival Of Speed down in West Sussex, which was huge fun – but did nothing for the room whatsoever.

A full week at work left Friday afternoon to start again – so the office ring main was finally fixed and wired in.
How many plugs do you need – hundreds!
Computers, monitors, printer, routers, telephones, answer machines, mobile phone chargers, coffee machines just about everything in the office needs a plug socket – so they all get one with a few to spare – for now.



Then the desk needed to go in.
I must admit that I have never done anything like this before – as it’s built in and very much ‘kitchen fitters’ stuff.
So we got hold of 4metres of ‘breakfast bar’ 4 metres of worktop. Looked at it and went – oh…

Then I borrowed a worktop cutting template from a friend, looked at it – and thought – oh no..
So I gave it to Pete, my brother in law and said - just cut that out for me will you please.

I went upstairs and started to put the support battoning round the corner of the room while Pete read the instructions.
What do you know – an hour later, battoning up – worktops cut to size, routered to shape, holes cut for biscuits and compression bolt fittings – we were ready to go.



Cut some holes for wire breakout points, then started to level and fit.





Got ready to glue everything up –and made a right mess in my nice room.




I owe Pete a beer or three! Impressive or what. Considering neither of us had even seen or used anything like that template before. Went together very nicely, even though I got glue everywhere.





These things, just like the door, are heavy, unwieldy and a pain to work with on your own (it’s the next day by now) but I do intend to move fully in here next week, so today and Sunday this gets done – or I’m office less.





Lots of odd stuff gets pressed into use – they can all adjust to height, hold a lot of weight, and were available in the warehouse!
Not exactly pretty, but it worked.

Each one of those white bags weighs in at 12.5K (25 lbs) and contains size9 lead shot (another project) and are just perfect to hold down the back edge – and later to hold the backstop in place.

A couple of more pics in the next post finish off todays work, then (hopefully) tomorrow the desk gets finished.
Then next week it's back on topic and some more traps and other stuff get to go in place. At least thats the plan.

Top
#2095408 - 07/11/09 12:45 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I’m looking for a fairly ‘minimalist’ look to the desk & office section – the listening part is extremely serious and needed.

So, to hold this lot up – how?
I hadn’t fully decided on what to do, as I wanted to make a final view when I saw what the top looked like.
With a side panel in it looks great to me – but how to hold the top in place at the same time?



Some old fashioned woodwork took over here – along with some reasonably accurate measuring.

Dowels were the chosen method, but not having a dowling jig made this not such a great idea. So I knocked up something that would do the job and kinda hoped it would be accurate enough.



Would these eventually line up? There’s an awful lot of holes there.









With a lot of body parts crossed everything was offered up to see if it would go back together,



After a small amount of persuasion with a rubber mallet everything went back together and actually looked pretty good.

Decided that it would be wise to let the glue dry before taking everything away – so twenty minutes in the listening chair then home.

Tomorrow will see the other end sorted, and the one under the window go into place.

Top
#2095552 - 07/12/09 07:47 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Quote:
Would these eventually line up? There’s an awful lot of holes there.


LOL, that's great!

Top
#2095560 - 07/12/09 08:55 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
As promised yesterday – a quick update on todays efforts.
Well the desk is now finished – the final end leg put in place the same way as the first – and as the first one went so well and stood up to a bit of weight being put on it I was happy enough.
The worktop under the window also got put into place, and it’s end panel will go in tomorrow evening.
Managed to run out of ‘upstand’ for the rear & sides, so need to order in a bit of that as well.

You may have also noticed that the listening and work chair finally made it back into the room. It’s starting to come together nicely now.

I hope next time to have completed another three traps – we will see.



Glue went off ok and it was still standing this morning.



Talk about working in a mess.



Side panel being prepped for final fitting.







The room as I left it this afternoon.
Very close to completion now.

Top
#2096194 - 07/14/09 02:02 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Managed to grab a couple of late nights already this week, so the desk and wortop are finished, and the fianl two FRP traps are also complete and just need stuffing with rockwool, which will happen on Thursday - so by the end of the weekend I should have a complete room to work in. I have a combined draw / filing cabinett to go under the desk, and a printer to go on top - along with the pc - then thats the lot.

As I left tonight:-







Lets see what happens.

Top
#2097311 - 07/19/09 09:31 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Well isn’t it just fantastic, how, in this amazing computer age, at the mere click of a button, you can lose nearly twenty minutes of typing and correction. Ok, I’m not the fastest – but I doubt I can remember everything I said, or the order it was in – Fangled darn pc’s – my is labelled ‘There’s bound to be problems in here’ and as true to life – it sure lives up to its name.

So – as can be seen from the pictures below, the final two FRP traps are now in place.
The ‘big job’ for the weekend is still work in progress as time went crazy this weekend (anyone got a spare tardis or a time bandit please?)

Just before these went into place a good friend and myself had a nice long listening session. So that I could accurately assess what, if any differences these new panels would make.

I have been listening on and off for an hour here and there, for weeks now – but the system has been on 24/7 during the last month, and some huge (monumental to me) changes have occurred – mostly recently I would guess.

Anyone that does not ‘believe’ in this or regards it all as rubbish should stop reading right here. I don’t want you spluttering all over your keyboard and making a right mess. This is my evaluation of what has happened to my system in my room – and yes, I am absolutely certain of what I am hearing – OK!

When the system was new and went into action, a lot of things were far from great. Passable, but not at all what I was looking for.
Leading edges to piano notes, strident treble on trumpet, horrible raggedness to high violin tones, snare / high hat that is painful on the ears – I had all of that, thank you.

Now – non of it. At all. If a note is played ragged and rough – then it still is, but smoothness is now an accurate description.
Snare hits start and stop on a sixpence (Dime?), rim shots hit you between the eyes, piano sounds sublime, and violin can just bring tears to the eyes – easily.

If I have a noisefloor – then I can’t seem to find it – it may be made of glass?
Quiet passages of music are exactly that – the space and apparent ‘air’ around notes makes everything readily identifiable and easy to delineate in space.

If music is well recorded then huge sounstages can be portrayed, as can dynamic range (almost scarily so)
The system can now go very, very loud – it is just so clean – and nothing distorts at all. I am being very careful here as I don’t want to induce deafness or tinitus, but having a well miked drum kit – live in the room – or a church organ on its 16’ bass pedal, I have never had this before, so I’m having some fun.

Why have I put this in this forum?
As it would not be like this at all without the treatment the room has. It’s that simple.

Add a further two traps to the mix and what happens?
More subtle this time.
More detail, slightly more image definition, extra clarity, yet no loss of musical emotion – at least as far as I can tell.
Bass notes are easily better again – appear slightly ‘quieter’ but this is down to them being heard as they should be – not echoes of them as well?

What is very apparent is that the room is now right on the ‘point’ as in just about anything else and the room will start to become over dead.

Speech is now at the point of being ‘weird’. Everything starts and stops very abruptly – no reverberation whatsoever from just about anywhere in the room.

I like the overall effect so far – it is eternally peaceful in there, and obviously exceedingly quiet (should nothing be playing) and just leaving the system running overnight means I come into a very warm room next day, so much is the insulation in there.

While working under the desk (I had to screw up the desktops somehow!) it was very apparent that a lot of bass buildup was happening in the corners (no surprises there then) so I may well put something in here – it won't be visible – but may well do something to help.

So I’m moving in here next week, and starting to work from here. Music will be a distraction, but so what.

Already I’ve been looking at putting in some diffusion (somewhere??) as a way of livening up the room very slightly, without taking away anything of what I have achieved. At least that would be the plan.
The last time I saw quadratics was as a schoolboy, when I used to swear at them and wander just what the hell I could ever use them for – it would appear I now have an answer to that one.
So it’s looking like this journey is not actually over yet – by some way.
Lets see – it is an interesting experiment if nothing else.






Top
#2097491 - 07/20/09 07:56 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Fabulous, just fabulous. Another true believer. grin

Top
#2099523 - 07/26/09 12:00 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Today allowed me chance to start what I so wanted to finish last week - the final programmed (albeit moveable) bass trap.
I was never going to be able to complete it in the time I had - but decided to give it my best shot, then try and find time in the evening to put the finishing touches to it.

I am so looking forward to seeing if this does prove to be the final part in the jigsaw.
I now have deep rooted doubts that it is - but this room is sounding so good that it is difficult to perceive any further improvement.

Back to today :-
Pulling together the parts for the free standing trap.
An off cut from next door, turned into something of a connecting upstand part.




upright





Centreing rear upright connector to the baseplate.

Finished basplate



Attaching centre upright support to the baseplate.
Accuracy = everything. This will affect vertical and horizontal aspects.





Seems to have worked.



Attaching trap to stand. Again accuracy = everything.



I appear to have constructed a wooden 'Cyberman'!



Trap on stand with moving handles attached.

Stuffed! 705 equivalent - 6" thick solid. 18mm thick mdf rear. 30mm mdf upright. All oak covered as per usual.

Have I done this before?



& as I finished tonight - close but no cigar.

I needed dinner and to see my family.



So what is it with the doubts?
A project like this , especially one that involves a fair amount of 'trial and error' inevitably involves some reading. Especially if your anything like me.
The front wall behind the speakers and kit is now the only fully 'live' wall left in there, and I have no intention of changing that. Enough traps = enough traps, & I think I am very close to that. (I have other ideas here, but more on that later) - much later!
But how live is live? Would diffusor live be better than standard wall?
How about a 6' by 6' quadratic diffusor panel behind the equipment stack? (Found a nice plan for one of those on the net - a whole 18" deep... bet that would be fun to make - and not weigh a lot (rolleyes)but would it help?)
Or how about TWO of those - side by side (reversed in construction) to make a 12' wide diffusor x 6' high? Would it pull the wall down?
Or would a diffusor similar in construction to the one oposite the window (remember that bendy mdf fun?) and 4' wide x 6' high behind the stack, followed by a 6' x 6' quadratic on either side be better?
Would this be complete overkill? Something tells me no - this will work and help a lot.
Any thoughts guys?
Oh - my wife wants her office decorated first before I even begin to think about any of this stuff - apparently.

I may be opening a whole new can of worms here, but it looks like an interesting idea?

I did start to work out the amounts of mdf needed to make that quadratic -> ouch!
You wouldn't want that to fall on your toe.





Top
#2099739 - 07/27/09 08:29 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
A diffusor on the front wall can help a little, but the actual portion behind the gear will not do much. If it were me I'd make it large anyway, and center it vertically at ear height. Little will be "wasted" behind the gear.

--Ethan

Top
#2101530 - 07/31/09 02:50 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
As can be seen below, I finally moved into the new office completely this week. After much hassle with telephone connections, ADSL lines, where to put a new printer, siting of the filing cabinet and shelves - all finally resolved and then managed to manhandle the final trap into the room.
I have now had time with a few friends in there as well, and was able to gauge reaction from everyone that has been to visit.
All has been positive so far. The room does not overpower anyone, in fact most feel right at home very, very quickly, and almost immediately start to ask if I can play x, y, z, etc - which usually ends up with a nice music playing session. Within moments all the kit and room is forgotten about (exactly as I would have wished) and music takes over. I dont think I can ask for more than that.
So does the final trap do anything?
Well it is becoming very difficult to say now - as there is so much in there. Yes it does have an effect that is positive - but to be honest perfect placement is not imperative with it - probably because of everything else as well.
It has become aparent to me that the volume control now needs to go up somewhat more than it used to to get to a certain level, but once that level is reached - it is way, way better than it was before everything went in. I hope that makes sense?
My guess would be an awful lot is being absorbed in the room rather than being reflected around and around..

I will post some more over the next few weeks,as I become more aquainted and used to what is going on - and also try to put together a final piece with all of the resources used and contacts (if this is ok and useful?)

As noted above I also have to do something about the huge anount of bass build up under the counter tops (this can't be good for the room) - looks like all of the off-buts of the rockwool will find a home in the end.








Top
#2101661 - 08/01/09 04:59 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
most feel right at home very, very quickly


Yes, exactly as it should be. A good sounding room should be totally neutral, and it's clear you achieved that in spades.

Quote:
My guess would be an awful lot is being absorbed in the room rather than being reflected around and around.


Yes, but you're absorbing only the reflections and none of the direct sound. So this is a Good Thing. You're not losing volume on the direct sound from the speakers, only the extra contribution from what would have been reflected sound.

This has been an amazing project to watch Steve, and you should be totally proud of how beautifully it came out. thu

--Ethan

Top
#2102154 - 08/03/09 12:41 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
As noted above I also have to do something about the huge anount of bass build up under the counter tops (this can't be good for the room) - looks like all of the off-buts of the rockwool will find a home in the end.


Steve, I have enjoyed reading your journey in developing your room. I have a question for you. How do you plan on addressing this? Are you just going to do a solid block of leftover rockwool? I have a similar situation with a medium sized round table next to my main listening position. That kind of leads me to a question for Ethan.... is it better to have a solid block or a sealed cube about two inches thick with a hallow space to capture the pressure?

Top
#2102338 - 08/04/09 12:32 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hi weverb,
I'll continue and post some pictures of this, as I am waiting for the under desk filing cabinett to arrive, and also I have ordered another counter top which I intend to cut up and use as shelves for the printer and computer.
When this is finalised I intend to make some full under counter height x 6 or 8inches thick traps - and cover them in black so as they hide the unsightly wires and also help stop the fan noise from the pc and printer (although these will hardly ever be on in serious listening). These will sit right up to the wall and probably also straddle the corners as my feet dont reach that far!
It is going to be interesting this one - as it's only apparent when working in the space how much build up there is.

Top
#2102409 - 08/04/09 07:29 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: weverb
is it better to have a solid block or a sealed cube about two inches thick with a hallow space to capture the pressure?


A solid block absorbs more than a panel with air behind. An air gap is a free way to get similar performance, but filling solid always absorbs a little more. How much more depends on the sizes and frequencies.

--Ethan

Top
#2103838 - 08/08/09 04:28 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Originally Posted By: Ethan Winer
Originally Posted By: weverb
is it better to have a solid block or a sealed cube about two inches thick with a hallow space to capture the pressure?


A solid block absorbs more than a panel with air behind. An air gap is a free way to get similar performance, but filling solid always absorbs a little more. How much more depends on the sizes and frequencies.

--Ethan


Ethan and Steve,

I have been thinking about this more (Any progress Steve?). I can fit a 16"x16"x24" cube under my table. Is this worth doing? What impact could one see at their listening position by absorbing bass under tables, etc.?

Thanks.

Top
#2103928 - 08/09/09 09:15 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Yes, adding any absorption in any corner is always useful.

--Ethan

Top
#2103929 - 08/09/09 09:30 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Originally Posted By: Ethan Winer
Yes, adding any absorption in any corner is always useful.

--Ethan


It is not a corner. It is just a table next to the listening couch. Take a look at the second picture. It is the round one next to the couch.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2074069/Difficult_Corners#Post2074069

Top
#2104078 - 08/10/09 12:54 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Yes,
progress has again been made and I will post some more pics shortly - and I suppose not un-surprisingly, it has made a not insignificant improvement to the overall sound in the room.
So far two blocks of 9" thick x height of under worksurface have gone into place, one stradling the corner leaving a 12" gap in the angle, the other sits right next door to it 2" away from the wall to allow for wires and plug sockets. The third will go against the other side of the corner wall later today - so a fair bit of rockwool under there now!
Does this stuff ever not work?

Top
#2104157 - 08/10/09 06:55 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
Does this stuff ever not work?


Sure, when you leave it in the box/bag in another room. cool

I cannot wait to read about your progress Steve. I always come back to your thread to admire your craftsmanship and to inspire new ideas for my room.

Top
#2104195 - 08/10/09 08:30 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: weverb
It is not a corner. It is just a table next to the listening couch.


In this case I meant the wall-floor corner behind the table.

--Ethan

Top
#2117462 - 09/20/09 12:19 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Its’ been a bit of a while since I updated this, but things are still happening.
As per the previous post, I decided to use some of my leftover rockwool to make a few panels which would fit under the (now completely finished) desk.
I find it difficult to put into words what this did. Yes, more of the same as before – still lower noise, better integration of the kit, easier instrument seperation etc, etc, but the most difference is when you get under there (working with wires etc) all that bass build up has simply gone. Now that can’t be bad.
I have now actually completed that fill in under the desk, computer, printer, storage etc are all where they will live and I am actually working in there full time. And very happy in there I am too!
To be honest, an awful lot more has happened, like the office we used to share has been fully renovated, new floors, new strengthened ceilings so we can use above as storage, and loads of extra workspace – but this is not the place for that.

Some pictures of what I now work in! :-




(This shows the nearly complete fill in of under desk)







Top
#2117661 - 09/21/09 07:33 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Steve,

Great to see you back. Can you give me a little more info on what you did under the desk? Is it just the one "panel" across the corner or is that another panel next to it under there?

I am thinking of doing something more cube shaped. I may even construct it so that it can used as a seat when we have a punch of people over visiting. Something like the GIK table trap, but with a cushion top to sit on.

Thanks.

Top
#2117794 - 09/21/09 02:40 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Nothing to difficult there!
The desk top is 271/2" above the floor, so I made sure that I had enough height in the pieces left over. I then stuck 2 x 3" pieces together to make 6" thick, cut to 27.5 high, covered in black fabric,and placed them under the desk, about 3" from the wall. The corner piece straddles the corner & is 9" thick. The whole of the under desk is treated thus, and then round the printer and pc is done prety much the same.
It certaily got rid of the bass build up under there.
As for placing random cubes of thick fibreglass in a room - they will certainly do something, but I am not in a position as to hazard a guess as to what would actually happen.
It would be fun to try though.
I will take a few more pics and post them a little later.

Top
#2117855 - 09/21/09 06:18 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Steve,

Thanks for the explanation. I always look forward to your pictures of your quality craftsmanship.

As for the cube I was describing, it is to be placed under the table next to my listening spot. I would only pull it out to use it as a seat when company dictated its need.

Top
#2199916 - 06/10/10 02:49 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I was chatting with a friend today and he remarked how much the room has evolved over the last year..
A year I said?
Well yes, it's been that long since we started having our weekly listening sessions.
Oh my - how time flies.
So I have just managed to find this, and having looked at the pictures I can't forget just how much fun I had getting to the point where I stopped off.
So over the next week I'll try and take a few more up to date pictures and add a few more notes.
What I can say, (this is not meant to sound in any way pompous) is that without exception, every guest I have had has been stunned by what is achievable with DIY acoustics. It's all very well having nice kit to play with, but the rooms influence is way greater than any ever imagine.
Another thing that happens is that initially the room gives its impression, then the kit gets looked at and chatted about, then, very quickly, music takes over.
Time simply vanishes - and its nothing to get through a donzen assorted albums before suddenly realizing that we ought to be back home.
Problem is you have to re-join 'the real world' to do that.
The biggest expense since completion is a lot more music. I'm thinking of getting shares in Amazon.

Top
#2200119 - 06/11/10 01:23 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
FredM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 6
Hi Stephen,

I can sure imagine listening in such a room is a real threat.
For holiday reading, I've just copied the thread.

Would love to see some update pictures.

Kind regards, Fred

Top
#2213458 - 07/21/10 02:16 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: FredM]
RCooper83 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 8
This is fantastic! Watching such an intense project like this unfold from start to finish is absolutely inspiring and makes me believe that I can actually do my own acoustics! Thanks so much for sharing!

Top
#2233926 - 09/29/10 11:47 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: RCooper83]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I did promise weeks ago to give some form of (possibly final) update to this ‘blog style’ thread, and give some impressions of just what has occurred since finally moving in.
For those that have read this thread in its entirety, or indeed followed me through the journey, well done indeed! I have just skipped through it and began to realise just how much went into it.
From this way back in August 2008 :-





To this today :-





Has indeed been a bit of an epic, but I have to say that finding this site turned a common or garden office into something rather special that is an absolute delight to work in, as for listening to music in there, well it’s extremely difficult to drag myself away most times.

What’s changed?
This was never going to stay like it for long as I said – but it had to stay for a couple of months :-



The wait for some very special custom length cables finally allowed it to be what I really wanted :-



I build myself a nice amp stand and a couple of racks for everything to be just as I wanted.





The eagle eyed amongst you will also see yet another addition of a picture bass trap ( BB King)

This will be continued in the next post as there is a max of ten pictures per entry..

Top
#2233941 - 09/29/10 12:22 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK


I also got very fed up with mountains of cd jewel cases piled up in random places – never able to find what I wanted when I needed it, so I built in a couple of custom sized cd racks (3 of them, now overflowing as well.).






& finally today I even built yet another bass trap to use up what was left of the rockwool I had – and this ended up on the floor behind the listening seat – but hey – it was free, and it was a floor to wall corner boundary. This one is 12” thick by 3’ long and 2’ high as can be seen here :-





Please don’t ask if this does anything as I have not had a chance to listen yet – but I doubt it is going to be a huge change as there is so much already in place, I just didn’t want to bin the rockwool and oak faced mdf.
I also needed the space it was taking up valuable space in the warehouse that I needed.

Having spent over a year in the room now, everything is bedded in nicely, everything has a place (where it occasionally lives as well) and I have become fully aware of just what I have.

I have ‘tweaked’ every possible component in the system to the max (almost to an ocd level) to the point now that it is very easy to tell the time of day due to the sound the set makes.
Let me qualify that.
Mains supply (even after all of the precautions I have taken) can be variable as everyone knows. Mid day sessions midweek are fine, but from 8pm in the evening the whole thing takes on another life and it sings its heart out.
This means I have lowered the noise floor sufficiently to allow hearing of variable mains quality, which in turns means rather large isolation transformers will be shortly ordered to try and eliminate this (minor) annoyance.

I have a lot of friends who now come in and bring recordings ‘just to see what it sounds like in ‘that’ room’. It never ceases to amaze me, what with the kit available to engineers today that some can produce utter rubbish and others something that takes you to another place, purely by music.
I find it amusing when reps call to see me and end up staying way longer than they wanted to just so that they can hear their favourite tracks, or more usually, taking away a list of (very varied) music to buy.

To those who are about to start on a project, large or small, I would urge you to search this forum (as I did) and when stuck ask the correct question.
With a little bit of skill, DIY, and the correct tools, just about anything is doable with the products available today. I wish you good luck.

This was the first time I dabbled in acoustics, it was a huge learning curve, and I found it hugely enjoyable.
I had never built a wall in my life before (despite rebuilding various houses), so that was fun to – especially one that was 14’ high and completely vertical / flat. Even the corners ended up square – how that happened is beyond me.
The end result is one I’m very proud of and very happy with, to the extent of spending a lot of time in there.

Top
#2234246 - 09/30/10 09:38 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Truly excellent Steve. And I agree about how a clean sounding room lets you hear the good and the bad in recordings. Last year a good friend of mine brought a DVD movie to see and hear on my system. He was really surprised to hear slight distortion on some parts of the dialog and music. He has a decent system, but without RFZ reflection panels. He never noticed the distortion until he watched the DVD here at my place.

--Ethan

Top
#2292615 - 04/15/11 01:47 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A further update, and a very worthwhile one I hope.
Finally I have had the chance to have the room measured and put some figures to what I have been listening to.
A friend came over (Thanks Tim!) with his kit (purchased with advice from here) and put the room to test.

First its frequency response :-



This is un-smoothed and shows a large hump at around the 30Hz mark - certainly a room mode due to its dimensions, and very difficult to remove with rigid fibreglas.

A 'smoothed' version of the above :-



This does show something of interest to me - 3Db down @18Hz..

Then the waterfall :-



I dont know enough to say anything about what's going on here!

Now two of the RT60 :-
This with the door open & no trap in place.





Then with the door closed and trap in front of it :-



That's a result worth having I guess!

Anything worth doing in the space I have left Ethan?
I think my only option with the 30Hz hump would be a Helmholtz, but I honestly don't know if it's worth the effort?

Top
#2292782 - 04/16/11 08:14 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
I think my only option with the 30Hz hump would be a Helmholtz, but I honestly don't know if it's worth the effort?


Probably not. Most music doesn't have much content that low.

--Ethan

Top
#2494884 - 05/20/13 12:39 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello Ethan & all - its been a good while, but I'm back, at least for a while.
Not much has changed in my office / music room for a while, save for a whole bunch of pictures on the front wall, all made as reflective traps by putting the framed pictures / posters onto 4" deep frames and filling them with RS80 rockwool.
I have a bunch more at the framers, and a few ready to go, but I ran out of solid oak angle, and having to buy a dozen lengths at a time = not particularly cheap..



I also added another pair of First Reflection traps right next to the corner traps at the front - due to new speakers with sideward firing woofers.

Not had the speakers for long enough to conduct a full set of experiments here, but looking good so far.

So, I'm back as I am building yet another office / music / dem room, this time for my wife, it's about time she got a room similar to mine I figured.
The rumours that I have actually run out of space to store CD's & vinyl albums, while entirely true, are wildly exaggerated - honest guvner <smile sweetly>

The new room will be directly adjacent to mine, and I will need to walk through it to gain access to mine.

It is partly old storage area and partly her 'old' office.
One wall is the party wall to the neighbours warehouse, and being constructed of 10" hollow concrete blocks is not entirely brilliant at sound blocking.
Another part of the wall will be my room, and yet another part will be to the rest of the warehouse and mezzanine floor,

All a bit complex, and required a bit of thinking on construction.
It is basically going to be a ''Box in a Box'' design, with plenty of acoustic caulk, timber, rockwool and platerboard (sheetrock) needed.

The final floor will be fully floated over the existing, and the ceiling will be fixed to the inner box walls only, all in an effort to stop sound transmission.

It's going to be built in several stages, due to the inevitable funding, time & physical constraints on just what can be achieved and how.
One end of the new room to be built first, then the lower end sealed from it & the old office demolished and then the new room completed from it.

The aim is to have a room at lest as good as mine - if not better, and incorporate as much information and knowledge that was gleaned from the first build.

Top
#2494905 - 05/20/13 01:05 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
To begin, the first part of the party wall was completely covered with plasterboard that was directly 'green glued' (using the UK equivalent) directly to it.
To this 3x2 timber battens were attached and screwed through to the blockwork.
These battens formed a grid into which RS60 rockwool was placed to start forming a sound block rear wall.
These were then sealed totally with yet more rockwool.
Every part was totally sealed edge to edge with acoustic caulk the help stocp flanking noise.
Then over the top of this framework a layer of plasterboard was applied to give 100% coverage, again edge sealed with acoustic caulk.
This formed the first part of the soundblock wall.



To the front of this a 20mm gap is made, then a further 4x2 framework is added - and kept fully away from the soundblock wall to stop transmission of vibration & hopefully noise.
A whole load of caulk and 4x2 later a full wall is complete to the first pillar in the room.

Hmm - those pillars caused some thinking. I cannot afford the room to fully leave a big gap round them, and dont want a protrusion into the room again, but they are another 10" concrete block in front of the existing wall, so will help a bit in themselves.
So to these I directly green glued 50mm RS80 rockwool, and these will become part of the final wall when covered with plasterboard.
The timber battens to attach the plasterboard here is stood 75mm away from the pillar either side, and the rockwool will stop the boards from reaching the physical blocks.





Top
#2494914 - 05/20/13 01:21 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK


To the left is the party wall to neighbours, being covered with the soundblock wall, then an inner floating wall of 4x2 made. Directly to the front is the existing office that will end up demolished and being the rear of the new room.

To the front right is the entrance to my room, and the right front is the upper mezzanine floor that opens to the rest of the warehouse.



This shows the inner 4x2 wall filled and sealed with 100mm RS60 rockwool.
The pillar is to the right and will show as uncovered by plasterboard in the next photo.



First part of the inner wall now covered with plasterboard and ready for next stage.



This is where the next part of the wall will be made, and include the entry door to the offices.



First part of the studwork completed upto the new doorway.
This will again be stuffed full of 75mm RS60, sealed both sides with plasterboard, and then have a 4x2 stud wall floated in front of it.
I am really hoping this amount of rockwool is doubly beneficial, both acting as soundbarrier and bass traps smile

Top
#2495168 - 05/21/13 09:47 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Very nice. You sure do like to work hard! thu

I wouldn't expect much sound blocking from rock wool alone, but a new wall could help. Are you aware of the dreaded "triple leaf" type wall? This simple figure is equal to more than 1,000 words:



--Ethan

Top
#2495202 - 05/21/13 12:04 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Ethan,
Thank you for that, I was not aware - a little more research = a rapid change in construction technique, thankfully I decided to come back here - I always seem to be learning.

Cheers for now.

Top
#2496984 - 05/28/13 11:44 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
After researching the leaf consruction and better methods of achieving what I want - a change to what had been done was needed, so a few hours turned this:



Into this:



With the plasterboard to the rear now..

This was then framed again for what will become the front face,and will allow for a lot easier making of the required traps in the room.



Put in a few electrics next and start covering the face - again. smile

Top
#2498977 - 06/04/13 02:44 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A fair bit more framing has happened since the last entry, all a bit the same as what has happened here before, but a *lot* of small detail work needed to be done - and that took the devils part of the time.
A heap of rockwool, and many metres of timber later, the room is finally coming together, well, at least the rear sector of it is.



Framed out the first corner trap, which will be above the desk and also house some lights. Added the wiring to it ready.
Started building the door frame - tis a big door..









This big hole should have become a wall today, but having the incorrect sized panels delivered saw that project out of the window. Tomorrow it will now be..



The areas not covered with plasterboard will eventually become 'built in' traps of various sorts, hopefully!

Top
#2498980 - 06/04/13 02:53 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
This is how it ended up today just before I had a play with some new speakers, hopefully bound for the new office.




Top
#2499201 - 06/05/13 10:28 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Looking good! thu

--Ethan

Top
#2499269 - 06/05/13 01:17 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Looks are slightly deceptive here, as all that appears to have happened in several hours of work is that half a wall has finally grown, well, that's my excuse.
That is part of a 10x6 sheet of melamine faced chipboard (needed to make the outside wall at least slightly smart) which has been cut to size, double edging strip added, hoisted into place, then covered on the inside with 2 layers of plasterboard. A few dozen screws hold it in place along with green glue equivalent.

I am so looking forward to start the real interesting stuff shortly - bass traps galore :-)




Top
#2499576 - 06/06/13 01:49 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Getting this last panel into place in one piece (for neatness outside) was huge fun - honest.
Two of us cussing and swearing for twenty minutes with just an inch above to spare before it decided to sit obediently into place, wondering what all the fuss was about.




It very quickly got covered with two layers of plasterboard.




Started on the framing, only to discover I was almost out of 3x2..
Great time to run out when your on a roll.



Absolutely no ammount of bullying, fixing and general faffing about is ever going to get this last one straight :-(



So called on Heath Robbinson to see if he could oblige (builders yard is closed)
Is it load bearing? - NO
Is it seen? NO
We can do it with the off cuts?
OK..



Then we ran out of off cuts, but being 8.55pm it was actually beer o'clock, so I left him looking longingly at the bin full of 6" & shorter end pieces :-)

Top
#2500221 - 06/09/13 01:04 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Next bit of framing, along with some first fix electrics.
Very nearly ready for the ceiling to be started - then the fun with the associated wall/boundary traps can once again begin :-)






I also need some time to work out exactly what I'm going to do with the lighting control unit that I spent so long getting just right. It's now right in the way..


Top
#2505006 - 06/22/13 11:37 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Not that much to update with this week unfortunately, due to the ceiling joists being on back order until next week.
This has, however, given me chance to do a lot of 'finishing off' jobs that would normally be left till last (or possibly not at all ;-) ) and also to move the lighting control system right out of the way for now. I didn't quiet fancy pulling all the cables just yet from a ladder, so moved it up the wall a ways. When the ceiling is in place it can all be done in relative comfort by standing on the new roof.

I also removed the step up to my office - and forgot just how big a step it is without it being there. It hurts first time one falls down it! New temp step now in place.

Then moved on to getting ready to just place the joists in place by sealing the gap between the walls fully and stopping any flanking noise from getting in (no small job in itself, using a good many tubes of sealant) This made a big hole in the existing ceiling!



Then an even bigger one :-(


Having literally run out of everything now, rockwool, timber framing, plywood, and it being the weekend, decided to leave as is until Monday and re-stock.

Gives me time to get on with another 15 - odd picture traps for the room.





Lets hope I have a bit more to show next time around.
Cheers.

Top
#2505637 - 06/24/13 02:42 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A few new tools allow for the building of the small picture traps to be an awful lot easier than they were last time around.

A very accurate mitre square for the saw :-



A pocket hole jig





Bessey clamp





all make the job easier and more of a pleasure to do.




Top
#2505639 - 06/24/13 02:50 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Finally this morning a new load of timber arrived - while I was out collecting a new load of rockwool :-)

I got back to find 80% of it un-usable, there not being a single straight piece in them. most were completely banana shaped and in twist as well. Great.
Called to get the lot swapped out, and when they came with a new (and way better) shipment, oh joy - the ceiling joists were with them as well.
They are all perfect fortunately.
A few hours later saw the last bit of framing before existing office removal and the first joist in tempoary place.
Now it gets interesting :-)






Top
#2505876 - 06/25/13 10:31 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I had quiet forgotten just how complex filling in the gap between the joists actually is, to completely block any flanking noise getting in via the tiniest of gaps.
Last time it just took some packing pieces and then a big concrete block between them did the job, this time around it's a tad different.
Having got a pair of joists completely level both across and along (dont ask - long story and goes back over 25yrs, nowt to do with me :-) )
it is going to take - per pair of joists
4 - 565mm spacer bars = 45mm sq.
8 - packing pieces 45x30x212mm
2 - blocking boards 25mm thick, 565x300mm
6 - plaster board pieces 212 x 600mm
2 - 3 tubes of acoustic sealant.
loads of 60mm, 50mm and 100mm screws.
having 9 prs of joists, plus the run down both sides plus one end to seal, thats an awful lot of cutting, planeing and precise measuring.
Each pair of joists will be filled with 50mm RS80 covered with fabric to form the ceiling, then 200mm of fluffy fibreglass to form a full filling.
Top will be sealed with 20mm ply, then another layer run in opposite directions.
It should provide a nice storage area as well..

So, a pair of spacers top and bottom @565mm, each side filled with a 212mm filler piece, all screwed into place with sealant between each mating face.



25mmthick blanking plate sealed at all edges where it meets the fillets and spacers screwed into place.



3 pieces of 600mm x 212mm x 12.5mm plasterboard all sealed and screwed into place forms a rigid box and sealed to the outside.



One pair of joists sealed as above plus another in place ready to go tomorrow when I get into work..

Top
#2506208 - 06/26/13 11:55 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Thanks Steve, keep 'em coming. thu

Top
#2507057 - 06/29/13 08:43 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Not so much to show for several hours intensive work.
Now a total of 5 joists up, sealed and now have lining paper to their sides, spacer pieces to help the rockwool stay in place and also hide the joins.
The paper allows the muslin covered traps to easily slide down the sides instead of snagging every few mm like last time around, and I have found that butt joints with covered rockwool just attract loads of dust and dont look so good over time.
This time they will all be hidden.
Keeping everything totally square is a bit of a game but worth the effort.
Started to cut some timber to form the frame for the wall to ceiling traps, but that is now set for next week. Needs a good old clear up and de-dust tomorrow.

First base coat of white paint, to be followed by several more no doubt. paint is the finish this time, cant afford the time to line evrything with oak like last time!






Top
#2508789 - 07/05/13 09:07 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Once again, not so many hours this week to achieve what I wanted, plus a (very) late night out to see Dead Can Dance in London meant a lost day - somewhere - I was convinced today was Thursday.
So, did I really say now for the fun part?
Pythagoras proved useful, but I'll be darned if I can remember tangents, sine & co sines these days.
Much easier is a very useful angle finder..
Then cutting 57 & 33 degree angles provided a few iffy moments, but hey, it got there in the end.
Had to work out a few things on the fly with regard to light placement, and the resulting holes. Hope I got it correct.
So a few pictures for the end of today, painting and a bit more plasterboard tomorrow..







Top
#2509622 - 07/08/13 02:24 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
This takes me back a while, soon got right back into it :-)
Rockwool is still a very odd colour here, so absolutely needs masking when using such thin and open weave material. This is just plain polyester 'wadding' - acoustically transparent, useful..
As these are all at the rear of the room, and form part of the RFZ, these are all non reflecting, so left plain rockwool.





Then covered in material :-




& a few in place. Working so close to a corrugated steel roof in such crazy temps (nearly 40') was fun.




Top
#2516114 - 08/01/13 02:18 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Some progress and pictures from the last few weeks.
I had a break to the Festival Of Speed in Sussex, and since then we have had some of the hottest days for many years.
Just what I needed for working right under a black painted corrugated steel roof.
It got a bit warm up there, and has continued to be so..
Rather than just put up loads of pictures of much the same thing with the ceiling - I have lumped several together as a sequence to show the production of the panel, placcing it between the joists, topping with fluffly fibreglass, and then finally sealing with caulk.
Some wiring and lights have been added / finalised, fuse box and various electrical items sorted today, and the last four joists added / painted prior to the demolition of the existing office.
It's taking shape at last.




















Top
#2516116 - 08/01/13 02:22 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
And before leaving tonight, the painting of the set of joists completed and some more lights added.


Top
#2516254 - 08/02/13 11:31 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Excellent photos Steve, keep 'em coming. thu

Top
#2516394 - 08/03/13 03:52 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
helmutcrab Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/11/12
Posts: 40
It looks like it is coming along nicely Steve.

Top
#2516655 - 08/04/13 01:42 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: helmutcrab]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
This weekend has seen no bass traps made at all, it has been a weekend of clearing up centuries old dust, wiring and more wiring.
The warehouse is actually part of a very old foundry (in excess of 230 -250 years), old enough to have made cannons (yes, the pirate ship variety) and the ammuniton needed for them. These were used in the Crimean war amongst others..
So the beams around which I am working hold a few surprises, along with lots and lots of exceedingly heavy foundry dust.



This stuff is a nightmare to clear up, being akin to soot. It blocks vacuum cleaners in seconds, and spreads like water.
but it needed to be done, otherwise I will continue to be covered in it working in the spaces I am at the moment.



Ie, very small and right next to the beams.
It did hold some surprises - this is a hand made nail, lots of which used to be made with child labour around here. It probably has not been seen for hundreds of years !



Along with tie bars and old fashioned conduit..



The conduit, while outwardly rusty, was very hard steel, and ate through hacksaw blades..
It contained some cable that was copper wire, shrouded in rubber, then bound in cotton.
Also around it was something I had never seen before - lead covered wire? Didn't know this was ever made.



Removing some of the joist hangers, tie bars etc proved challenging..



But it had to be done as they were, just for a change, right where I wanted to work and put the fuse board.
As was this structure??





That cleaned, some tools were brought up ready for the next job - installing the fuseboard for the office lights & power.




That used up most of Saturday..

Top
#2516658 - 08/04/13 01:51 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Sunday was duly spent getting the wiring into place, and a 10mmsq T@E cable run to the main fuseboard downstairs for power feed.
Lot & lots & lots of wires..


Several hours later it looked like this - roughly 2/3 finished.



When thats finalised, the floor (ceiling) is being strengthened with a second layer of 3/4'' ply running opposite directions to that already down.
It needs to be strong as this lot will be on it very soon ;-)



So on with more traps very soon - this time paper faced.

Top
#2517104 - 08/06/13 02:29 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
So a few more panels to make for the ceiling - this time reflective as they are now not helping to form the RFZ.
This is how I went about it.
I use 'lining paper' used for a base for wallpaper which is 750mm wide - hence plenty wide enough for the rockwool.
I know that a lot reccomend brown kraft paper, but I found on the first build this is simply too thin to work with, the rockwool being ridged and it also still showed through the material cover :-(
Cut a lenght, then apply a spiders web of spray glue to the rockwool.
When almost touch dry, carefully apply to the rockwool face and gengtly press into place.
Then again apply a spiders web of glue to the paper, after having cut some polyester to size.
Stick this to the paper.
Then cover with material.
Roughly 5 mins per panel - with practice.












Another set of lights could go up, and the final layer of plywood sealed to the ceiling top, then given it's first coat of bitumen paint, for when the roof drips as it inevitably will - I do not want this ceiling being water marked..






Yes, the electrics will get a cover and be watertight :-)

Of all the times to run out of muslin covering and the warehouse has no stock until Friday - great - not..
So the interior walls are being finally lined with 1/2 plasterboard over the existing 3/8'', wallpapered and painted while the material arrives.


Edited by Steve2701 (08/06/13 02:37 PM)

Top
#2517560 - 08/08/13 11:10 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
helmutcrab Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/11/12
Posts: 40
Hi Steve,

So thats how you do the paper !

Can i ask why you cover the wallpaper with poly wadding please ? ( Is it to get the low end help whilst still killing the highs or is it to match in aesthetically with the non paper faced ceiling panels ? ).

Is the entire ceiling absorption with 4" 145 kg/m3 rock wool and loft roll on top ?
Have you found the 145 has held its shape over time from the first build ?

One thing that surprised me was the weight of 100 kg/m3 rock wool when i last worked with it. It is pretty heavy so 145 must be heavy.

In your previous build ( i might be wrong ) it seemed like ceiling - wall corner posts were filled with the rigid rock wool. Did this support itself with only the perimeter wood frame ?

Cheers again for documenting this Steve

Top
#2517759 - 08/08/13 11:08 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: helmutcrab]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hi Helmutcrab,
Can i ask why you cover the wallpaper with poly wadding please ? ( Is it to get the low end help whilst still killing the highs or is it to match in aesthetically with the non paper faced ceiling panels ? ).

Simply because the wadding helps push the covering further forward in a very soft manner, and makes it look so much better when it is finally finished with skirting pieces, putting a nice, finished edge to it.

Is the entire ceiling absorption with 4" 145 kg/m3 rock wool and loft roll on top ?
Have you found the 145 has held its shape over time from the first build ?

Yes, the entire ceiling is a trap, but it’s not 145k, it’s 3” 80kg, with 10” of fluffy on top of that.

In your previous build ( i might be wrong ) it seemed like ceiling - wall corner posts were filled with the rigid rock wool. Did this support itself with only the perimeter wood frame ?


Correct, just a wooden frame.
The previous build is exactly as it was - all that time ago. Thank heavens for that as I do not want to be re-doing this!

Cheers.


Edited by Steve2701 (08/08/13 11:08 PM)

Top
#2518197 - 08/11/13 09:14 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
To give myself a datum point as to where I needed to work to boarding out wise, a first reflection trap (the rearmost one) needed to be set in stone.
This was decided upon via a couple of points - the position of the door to my office, the position of some vertical uprights and just the what the boards would mount to.
So this was where it would be.



Then carry on boarding and 'overboarding with plasterboard, in readiness for putting on lining paper and painting.





Put the rear corner trap framing back into place and started lining it and wiring it in readiness for lights.





Started the final papering and got right the way round to the opposit FRP trap, but still some rubbing down to be done there yet.









Pretty much everything I needed to press on arrived at once on Friday, so it's been a manic weekend.
I can now proceed with the final floating floor (just need to put in a few hundred screws to stop any squeaks that may develop in the existing one).
Also the desktops and worktops arrive tomorrow, the final sets of lights, a full roll of muslin and yet more rockwool so that this phase can be finalised in the next few days.

It is finally nice to see in the flesh what has been in my mind for the last few months.
Getting there.. wave

Top
#2519224 - 08/15/13 02:31 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
With so much arriving all at once last Friday, a lot has been able to be progressed during the week.
First, the right in the way steel conduit in the loft space was removed, the last 8 ceiling traps made, and the last few lights for this phase were all wired in.







The walls were all papered with lining paper (same as used on trap facing), given a few coats of white paint, then two coats of top coat (vinyl silk).
Wired in the surface plugs needed, set them up and all work fine.





Made certain the floor no longer creaks with 400+ screws :-)



Wired in the 'under corner' bass trap lights, 12v halogen variety. Lowered the output to 20w to make nice ambient light to work with.


finished of a bunch of traps for the corners and ready to make the full corner traps above the desk and side.



Say goodbye to the old office as it will be gone by this time next week - hopefully.

So the first phase is now all but complete - just the floating floor to go down and the desk / worktops to be placed to the wall.
Managed to get a whole bunch of carpet tiles for a great price so they need to be stored 'somewhere'.
This lot is about 1/3 of the floating floor, the rest of the ceiling joists and the worktops.
Need a bigger warehouse...


Top
#2520142 - 08/19/13 01:47 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A few more updates from the weekend and today.
The floating floor could now go down, so first the layer of 'Regipol' silentlay - 6mm thick re-constituted shredded car tyres amongst other stuff was first to go down, relatively easy, and lays perfectly flat.
This had a considerable effect on deadening the room, which I assumed would come straight back when the tongue and groove chipboard went down. Wrong..



Then down went the floating floor - keeping the edges clear of the walls by a small amount. This is 3/4'' high density chipboard, tongue and groove. Boards staggered for strength and each tongue liberally coated with PVA for added strength.
This is exactly the same as my office floor, so I have faith it will work ok.





Then ran the batons round the wall to take the desk and worktops needed, and also the trunking for power sockets, data and telephone (something new to learn there - cat6 network for the first time.)



Then started on a few more traps - I have a few to get through..





Needed to make some interesting shaped timber for blinding pieces - thankfully this kit was put to great use :-)





Still a bit to go, but mostly traps now..

Top
#2521525 - 08/24/13 11:07 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Been busy making traps, cutting work / desktops to size, routing them, and trying to get them into the office.
Some of the shelving and storage cabinets also arrived and were assembled.
Filled the above desk corner trap with rockwool offcuts at the rear of lower section (to allow for some airflow for lights) and then super chunk style behind the upper section.



Then did the same for the above worktop trap on the other side, and added the top section to the over desk trap.





Filled in all remaining trap areas between ceiling / wall and also the rear wall.



Then started to make the (many) metres of blinding pieces of painted MDF to cover the exposed pine.
Pete assembled the shelving and cupboards, and also routed the worktop joint - this is now ready for assembly when the trapping is all complete above it and made good.



Found some oak faced ply from the last project left over and put it to good use blinding the supports for the corner traps.



This is how it was left today, paint drying on the finishing trim pieces downstairs.
I have a feeling I need an awful lot of that somehow, and in many varying sizes :-(
Bank holiday weekend, so still two full days to play with here.

Top
#2521820 - 08/26/13 07:32 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Note to self.
Making all the trim pieces, painting them & most of their edges is seriously laborious, long winded and a right royal pita.
Use ready finished board and cut to size next time around - if you do this again.
Not a great use of your own time frown

Top
#2525267 - 09/07/13 12:26 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A week away to totally re-charge the batteries has been great.
Not so much as a hint of the internet, and dodgy mobile reception = fishing ruled..
My previous post was explicit in what it meant.
A full five days of doing nothing but cutting MDF to widths of 45mm, 50mm, 70mm & 75mm, plus the odd larger piece, cutting 3x2 with 45degree sides, planing it all square.
Then painting it all with at least three coats of paint, even the edges - ughh.
Cutting it to exact sizes was a breeze after all that smile
For this phase it is now *all* up, just a few odd pin heads to be rubbed down tomorrow and final top paint coat.







The left hand wortop went in beautifully, and the under counter storage was just a great fit - an exact 50mm oak spacer was all thet was needed, and now looks good if I may say.



Today the final pieces of trim went up (as above pictures) and then started the power wiring for the office desk space - via some nice trunking. Power was completed and working, COMMS & DATA will have to go in shortly, as all the required wire and outlets are still within the walls of the office that will now be coming down on Monday.





So that is how it ended today, with tomorrow that last bit of painting before the desk gets fitted..

Top
#2525461 - 09/08/13 10:16 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
That is totally beautiful! I love the lights under the corner bass trap. thu

Top
#2530009 - 09/23/13 12:19 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I have been making progress - honestly smile
Time just keeps disapearing at a vast rate of knots - perhaps it's me getting older?
So - we added Pats new desk after a bit of expert routing by Pete.
Well, actually, it's the second he has ever done, my desk being the first some years ago now.
Directions followed to the letter, along with a reasonably square corner (phew) = a just perfect fit.



This end not fixed permanently as I need to get to that trunking shortly.
So for now it simply rests on a few dowels.



& Lillydog soon found a brand new home smile



Started moving Pat to the new desk in a tempoary manner to allow the demolition of the old one.. Problem being the new office now has to house all of the old and it aint quiet that big frown





Then the great moment I have been waiting for - hunt that cable in the walls & floors..




Some of the wires begin to appear, but some appear to be buried in the rear wall, oh well..



Rapidly running out of room here all in tempoary homes for now.





Thats the limit of ten pics per post, so more a little later - yes, we have gotten further than that smile

Top
#2530032 - 09/23/13 01:44 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
The demolition of the office progressed nicely, loads of timber (with thousands of nails in it) was rescued and is ready for re-use. Some cut to kindling ready for the log burner this winter.
Loads and loads of old plasterboard had to be thrown unfortunately - impossible to re use in any way shape or form.
All of the insulation from the ceiling has been bagged ready for use in the new ceiling (it was in perfect condition)
A fair rats nest of telephone wires turned up and all needed very careful handling as two of them controlled the alarm and sensors, and being permanently connected and monitored = break and all hell joins in.
Once identified, three phone lines, internet, fax were all re boxed housed and coiled ready for the new extension. Fibre optic will then be added.
Old power cables isolated, cut, taken from fuseboard, then one left for use during the build.
Then a weekend away at Classic Album Sundays (you have this coming to Portland - Maine very soon smile ) meant a bit of a break and playing with some amazing kit with some fantastic music.









It is now completely down, the fax machine is now living where my coffee machine should be (so it can't be there for long ) and the final build will begin later this week.

Top
#2531703 - 09/29/13 11:39 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
SO, the old office is completely down, now the final part can begine, but there is rather more to it than I needed - hmm no change there then..
On the complete demolition, the reason for such an uneven floor at this end becomes rather apparent.



The office floor was sat on 3x2, and on top of that was 22mm tongue and groove chipboard.
The 3x2 was sat on very old 1/2" chipboard tongue and groove, which resembled the atlantic in a hurricane.
So, the newer floor was carefully taken up for re use, along with rescuing the 3x2 from the (now expected) thousands of nails. At least very little glue had been used smile





On inspecting the joists - they are ''all over the place'' where they are fitted into the joining wall. Well over 2" in varience from joist to jopist and to the centre supporting steel beam.
This proved to be a very real headache, time meant it needed fixing 'now' and also we were not going to wreck the brand new ceiling just finished in the office below.
So the rescued floor from the old office went down, screwed and glued into place onto the existing beams, to give me something at least to work to.
Ordered a whole bunch of new t&G boards, and a load of plasterboards ready for a very busy weekend.

With the rescued floor in place, I was able at least to get a reasonable flat floor along the wall edge - this took out some 25mm of ripples along that edge. Plenty of packing pieces under the new floor. Then the huge dip to the middle was slightly modified again with packing pieces.
I needed to be very careful here as the last thing I need is a moving, squeaking floor. The best was made of something that should have been better frown



As the floating floor sits on top of this - a total thickness of near 70mm should be substantial enough.

Moved and lengthened some existing lighting wires, corrected some wires for the alarm, put up a whole load of plasterboards to the joining wall, and started framing out there as well.





Then looked at just how square the room could be at the other end.
Started by totally sealing the edges with loads of acoustic mastic, and also a fair amount of silicon at the outside wall edge as the possibilty of damp coming through.

Made a trap door for access to the main fuseboard below - I still need to get access to this for getting the HiFi wiring to the correct places, and also may just need to get at it in the future - inevitable?
Packed the gap between my office and new one and main wall with fluffy fibreglass, placed a sheet of plasterboard to the outside of my office - and checked for square with the cross member - smile smile smile phew...


That bit of floor and starting the walls with plasterboard took 12 tubes of silicone, 10 tubes of acoustic mastic and fifteen tubes of solvent free gap filling adhesive..
It's also screwed together well, and every tongue and groove is completely covered with pva glue - this is not going to come apart easily at all.


This is what it looked like on leaving today - it's all coming together - just one hell of a clear up needed tomorrow..


Top
#2542594 - 11/10/13 12:28 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
An update on this project. which, in actuality nearing completion as I write this, but it will need a few more entries as Its been a while..
So as expected, a lot more framing out begins on the left, right and front of the room.
Nothing crazy, but the front did present the inevitable challenge being so old and so many additions had been made to it and altered, it was a bit of a dogs dinner.
To make it really simple - a straight line was used and a few inches from the wall one side - equalls a few more at the other and nearly two feet in the middle.
To that frame, two layers of 3/4" ply with staggered joints, then to those two layers of plasterboard. Then 3x2 studs added to this for frame of rockwool.
A 2" gap and another frame for 4" rockwool which will form the front wall in actuality.
Each corner will be a 45degree solid bass trap, and just to keep things interesting, a 'trap door' of sorts needs to be left centrally for the HVAC to be added at a slightly later date.















Then, the real challenge for the last week or so - that floor, with a huge dip in the centre front which slopes gently back to the centre of the room.
A mere 23mm in the centre of the front to nothing at the sides and variable to the centre middle of room.
70+ individual pieces of timber, shaped and graded to a complete jigsaw effect, glued and screwed to the subfloor.
Still not as level as needed, but getting close - so many layers of 2mm underlay for laminate, in various sizes to complete a level sub floor for the then rubber underlay, for the floating top floor - got that :-) Madness..
But that will need to be in the next post as I'm out of the picture allowance in this one.

Top
#2542599 - 11/10/13 12:37 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
That front floor really was a pig.








On top of that goes the rubber underlay for the floating floor :-



Then on top of that goes the top floor - finally level :-)


So from here on it's just the walls and ceiling to go.

Top
#2542608 - 11/10/13 01:20 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
You will have seen from the preceeding photos, the side walls are fully framed and filled with rockwool.
I also added the feature that this room will employ a lot - streaming audio - this means a fair few wires, and then some smile
Along with the cables needed for a network of computers and printers, in three seperate rooms, and something I had never attempted before, it promissed to be fun. It was, and still is ongoing




There is also the HVAC to consider (as above) so room and access panels were added to allow for it, along with wiring and fusing.









This completed, the front wall framing and filling with rockwool / front corner traps could be made ready.



All this and the *final* bit of ceiling is made ready to fill.
This *was* our only access to the ceiling above, so another access was fabricated round the other side of he warehouse - well done Pete..
It shows the ceiling proper being fabric covered rockwool.
On top of this goes 10'' of fluffy rockwool, then two (staggered) layers of 3/4 ply, two coats of bitumen paint as a waterproof layer, then a layer of 3mm board painted with epoxy floor paint to allow for walking on and storage of 'stuff'.


Top
#2546257 - 11/24/13 11:17 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Back up on the top of the ceiling, things were being fully sealed and finalised.
All the wall edges were being fully boxed in to stop any flanking noise, taking particular care with all those wires.
Speaking of wires the final Distribution board for the rooms HiFi section was installed.
A run of 10mm sq cable was run from the main DB on the same phase as the rest of the HiFi boards to this, then 8 seperate radials in 6mm sq were run to individual twin sockets.
The top section was sealed as noted, and then 3mm board placed on top, this is then sealed with epoxy floor paint to provide a walk / store area.
The small leak in the roof will be sorted asap, but not the thing to be doing during the winter for certain.










Top
#2546260 - 11/24/13 11:32 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
In the office things are still progressing to final finish.
The final wall plasterboard is fitted, filled and wallpapered, then painted with undercoat / two top coats.
All wood framing for traps fully finished, corner traps sorted ready for filling, ceiling sorted and timber readied for the finish pieces to be fitted very shortly.
While the room at this end sounded totally 'dead' before the plasterboard was fitted, now it sounds like it should - thankfully.
Then the fun part of wiring in the network, final lights and the odd few ring main and HiFi sockets could begin.

My version of 'dot -n- dab means the board stays put, from the second it touches the wall smile
















Top
#2546262 - 11/24/13 11:44 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Last few pictures detail the fitting of network, trunking and ring / radial sockets.
Very time consuming as it a new ball game for me completely, and not something that I can afford to get wrong.
First time = must be correct.
No pressure there then.
While it all looked a dogs dinner of wires, power cables and trunking - it was worth the effort of labeling each cable end and also covering all the wires prior to painting. Bit of a pain to remove, and again, time consuming. But hey - I'm learning fairly fast.




















Top
#2546498 - 11/25/13 10:59 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Excellent Steve, keep 'em coming!

Top
#2548070 - 12/01/13 11:35 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
After having left off the room looking like this



& having made in excess of three hundred & fifty individual connections of these pesky things (& their shielded equivlent)



Then tested the lot with a LAN tester gizmo, I decided it was time to do something a bit different, turn this



into the match of this



With the mere addition of yet another 30 bass traps, plus one rather differnt trap.
The addition of a door caseing or two, a new door fitted and we are, ahem,
done smile
So hopefully, before Christmas, Pat should have her new office - finally.

One thing of note, even with just a piece of polythene acting as a door.
Heat, lots of it.
Brilliant at this time of year..
Will need cooling for certain in the summer.
or working in total darkness smile
Talk about well sealed & insulated..

Top
#2549816 - 12/08/13 11:44 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I am actually making progress.
19 down, and a dozen more to go - or so..
I found a few more places to add the odd trap or two smile







& then I have the dubious pleasure of a fair few metres of finishing trim to make again, oh what joy - not!

Top
#2550074 - 12/09/13 11:12 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Wow, really nice Steve.

--Ethan

Top
#2555310 - 12/27/13 09:25 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Another quick update on what's happening..
I finished off making the traps, and put them all into place, some needing tempoary help in staying put.
Had a quick count, & got to 91 - all made and covered.
Thats rather more than I expected.
One more to go - that will split in two and pivot into place over my office door. Well. at least that's the current plan smile



Had notice a friend wanted to come and visit & have a play with the new streamer.
That's fun, as the network is not in place in my office yet, so everything stops and the network gets installed.
This means pulling my system and room apart, making a right old mess, then re-assembly, test, and see if I can actually stream smile
at least I had put all the cables ready - I just needed to drill a big hole in my wall to start, not something I took lightly, having sealed it so well to start with.















Made some room on my bench (ie - put away a whole bunch of cd's and vinyl) for a 'ripping station',



Then hoovered, cleaned and re-assembled the whole setup - that was a day gone!


Top
#2555318 - 12/27/13 09:49 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Then it was back to my current passtime - making trim.
While it's reasonably easy to paint entire pieces of 10mm thick MDF - cutting it then marks it in most instances, and then the most fun in life - painting the bare edges that can be seen.
Each edge usually needs at lest 3 or 4 coats before I'm ok with what it looks like.
Anyways, it's rapidly now approaching full readiness. A bit more to make, pin holes to fill, sand and touch up.

Finally decided just what to do with where the HVAC is going - more on that in the next update.
For now - this is where we are.



Top
#2555331 - 12/27/13 10:22 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
With 91 traps you have me beat. thu I have "only" 55 in my living room, though I have another 50+ in my upstairs studio.

--Ethan

Top
#2560648 - 01/12/14 11:32 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A further update - split into two parts as they are as usual photo-centric.
While the room is 99.5% completed now, and actually used as an office, I do need to finalise the last % so that it can be fully used..
So, trim, trim & yet more - trim.
21/2 sheets of 9mm mdf, 5 litres of paint and finally, it's all up & finished.
I really should have used another method, but it does look ok to me, and form does follow function here - ther was no option.
So, each piece cut to size, pinned into place,





Then pin holes filled, card placed in all corners & sides, and then covered in paper tp protect the material. These have already been pre painted, often 4 coats, so this is all additional work just to fill the holes and make good joints.











The ''fireplace'' as such also needed sorting.
The plan was a nice feature oak design.
Every single piece of oak I have was the wrong length in any given direction, so that idea soon came to an end.
I did have a bunch of 'off cuts' of MDF, my old step into the office, the floor from Pats office & some lengths of wortop back that had been trimmed off to size the work area.
Out with the router, and a few horurs later, thirteen bits of spare timber were in use..







This will now continue in the next post..

Top
#2560650 - 01/12/14 11:45 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
The continuation of the fireplace making..
The top trim to support the shelf placed to the wall



Another off cut pressed into use as a pattern for some dowel holes to stop the shelf from toppling.







I should point out that the entire centre section has been made so that it can be totally removed, to allow for drilling to the outer wall which will be needed for the heat exchanger.
One thing has become patently obvious.
It is only going to need air con cooling - absolutely no heating is needed in this room.



Now for the door casing to my office, not the easiest of jobs.
While the first reflection traps appear to be 2" thick, they are in effect also bass traps being some 12" tick in actuality.









Top
#2560651 - 01/12/14 11:49 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK






And finished of the day looking like this - just the trim round the door to do, lay the carpet tiles and fit the main office door..


Top
#2609182 - 07/07/14 03:41 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
It did finally get finished - honest smile
Time has since gone to that place where it goes, and I never got around to showing the finishing off of the rest of the room.
So, putting that to rights - this is now what it looks like and a few pictures of how it got there..


[/URL]














Those hinged traps that cover the entrance to my office have a far greater impact on imaging and general good sound to the room than I honestly thought they would, but being right at the side of the listening seat - I guess it's as it should be.
As a complete room, to begin with it was a livelier place than my office, but never bright or 'in your face'. I have put this down to the physical facing of the room to be more reflective than mine, albeit there is a roughly % same coverage in traps.
This has again slowly evolved with addition of a fair few 'picture' traps that I have been making from artwork that I had.
The mass of "network" cables in the picture below does serve a purpose, as some of my clients want to know just how and what is needed for a network music streaming setup, so this is it condensed into one small area instead of spread over a couple of rooms which is more usual.







This is as it is now - no doubt more pictures will find their way onto the walls shortly smile







Then I added a further 9 / 10 picture traps to the front wall of my own office, and once again we notice an improvement to imaging and overall sound quality.
I guess that is down to the fact that almost the entire wall is now covered in the equivalent of FRK in 5" - 6". It is only when those final bits go into place that his seems to happen though. Not a huge effect, but nice non the less.




So I guess, at least for now - it's done.
I will inevitably fill what gaps are left in both rooms with more traps as artwork, as and when it becomes available, currently another 9 are in process..

I should say once again a huge thank you to Ethan for the guidance given and prods to move me in the right direction when needed.

Cheers for now.

Steve.


Edited by Steve2701 (07/07/14 04:12 AM)

Top
#2609289 - 07/07/14 11:34 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Holy cow, that's truly awesome Steve. This has been a huge project for you! thu

--Ethan

Top
#2773852 - 04/19/16 12:20 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
It's been a bit of a while, and a few things have happened, but I have decided it's time for part III smile
The next project has to be the last for me in my current premises, as it will mean I have totally run out of space to do any more.
This room will end up being a total of 11m long and 5.5m wide, and actually slightly higher than my first room - which is still my office to this day.
Easily the biggest yet.
I started (without realising it) about a year ago, when we needed access to the roof void above the two rooms already completed, along with a new, rather nicer, toilet area.
That got finished a few months back, and I had even then added loads of 'bass traps' as a 'just in case'
The next year or so could prove interesting.
We needed a new roof on the building (part one completed, part two about to happen)
This allows total cleaning of the loft void, sealing to the adjacent units, and a new overall ceiling made..
Pictures will follow soon.
It's nice to be back again smile

Top
#2774075 - 04/20/16 02:05 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
For various reasons I've moved my forum to a new home:

Ethan's Audio Expert Forum

This forum here will probably (hopefully) not go away soon, so you're welcome to link back to this thread from the new thread you start at my new place.

--Ethan

Top
#2792373 - 07/24/16 12:30 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I tried hard over in the new place Ethan, but it was inferred that build logs were of no use to other members, so I'm currently looking for somewhere else - if anyone knows where part III may be found useful by other folks please let me know.

Thanks.
Steve.

Top
#2792675 - 07/25/16 01:37 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
You're welcome to post a build log at my other forum. The only other place I can think of is Gearslutz. There's a lot of that there. They even have an entire subsection for that.

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  Ethan Winer