Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 4 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#2104195 - 08/10/09 08:30 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: weverb
It is not a corner. It is just a table next to the listening couch.


In this case I meant the wall-floor corner behind the table.

--Ethan

Top
#2117462 - 09/20/09 12:19 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Its’ been a bit of a while since I updated this, but things are still happening.
As per the previous post, I decided to use some of my leftover rockwool to make a few panels which would fit under the (now completely finished) desk.
I find it difficult to put into words what this did. Yes, more of the same as before – still lower noise, better integration of the kit, easier instrument seperation etc, etc, but the most difference is when you get under there (working with wires etc) all that bass build up has simply gone. Now that can’t be bad.
I have now actually completed that fill in under the desk, computer, printer, storage etc are all where they will live and I am actually working in there full time. And very happy in there I am too!
To be honest, an awful lot more has happened, like the office we used to share has been fully renovated, new floors, new strengthened ceilings so we can use above as storage, and loads of extra workspace – but this is not the place for that.

Some pictures of what I now work in! :-




(This shows the nearly complete fill in of under desk)







Top
#2117661 - 09/21/09 07:33 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Steve,

Great to see you back. Can you give me a little more info on what you did under the desk? Is it just the one "panel" across the corner or is that another panel next to it under there?

I am thinking of doing something more cube shaped. I may even construct it so that it can used as a seat when we have a punch of people over visiting. Something like the GIK table trap, but with a cushion top to sit on.

Thanks.

Top
#2117794 - 09/21/09 02:40 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Nothing to difficult there!
The desk top is 271/2" above the floor, so I made sure that I had enough height in the pieces left over. I then stuck 2 x 3" pieces together to make 6" thick, cut to 27.5 high, covered in black fabric,and placed them under the desk, about 3" from the wall. The corner piece straddles the corner & is 9" thick. The whole of the under desk is treated thus, and then round the printer and pc is done prety much the same.
It certaily got rid of the bass build up under there.
As for placing random cubes of thick fibreglass in a room - they will certainly do something, but I am not in a position as to hazard a guess as to what would actually happen.
It would be fun to try though.
I will take a few more pics and post them a little later.

Top
#2117855 - 09/21/09 06:18 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
weverb Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 22
Steve,

Thanks for the explanation. I always look forward to your pictures of your quality craftsmanship.

As for the cube I was describing, it is to be placed under the table next to my listening spot. I would only pull it out to use it as a seat when company dictated its need.

Top
#2199916 - 06/10/10 02:49 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: weverb]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I was chatting with a friend today and he remarked how much the room has evolved over the last year..
A year I said?
Well yes, it's been that long since we started having our weekly listening sessions.
Oh my - how time flies.
So I have just managed to find this, and having looked at the pictures I can't forget just how much fun I had getting to the point where I stopped off.
So over the next week I'll try and take a few more up to date pictures and add a few more notes.
What I can say, (this is not meant to sound in any way pompous) is that without exception, every guest I have had has been stunned by what is achievable with DIY acoustics. It's all very well having nice kit to play with, but the rooms influence is way greater than any ever imagine.
Another thing that happens is that initially the room gives its impression, then the kit gets looked at and chatted about, then, very quickly, music takes over.
Time simply vanishes - and its nothing to get through a donzen assorted albums before suddenly realizing that we ought to be back home.
Problem is you have to re-join 'the real world' to do that.
The biggest expense since completion is a lot more music. I'm thinking of getting shares in Amazon.

Top
#2200119 - 06/11/10 01:23 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
FredM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 6
Hi Stephen,

I can sure imagine listening in such a room is a real threat.
For holiday reading, I've just copied the thread.

Would love to see some update pictures.

Kind regards, Fred

Top
#2213458 - 07/21/10 02:16 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: FredM]
RCooper83 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 8
This is fantastic! Watching such an intense project like this unfold from start to finish is absolutely inspiring and makes me believe that I can actually do my own acoustics! Thanks so much for sharing!

Top
#2233926 - 09/29/10 11:47 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: RCooper83]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I did promise weeks ago to give some form of (possibly final) update to this ‘blog style’ thread, and give some impressions of just what has occurred since finally moving in.
For those that have read this thread in its entirety, or indeed followed me through the journey, well done indeed! I have just skipped through it and began to realise just how much went into it.
From this way back in August 2008 :-





To this today :-





Has indeed been a bit of an epic, but I have to say that finding this site turned a common or garden office into something rather special that is an absolute delight to work in, as for listening to music in there, well it’s extremely difficult to drag myself away most times.

What’s changed?
This was never going to stay like it for long as I said – but it had to stay for a couple of months :-



The wait for some very special custom length cables finally allowed it to be what I really wanted :-



I build myself a nice amp stand and a couple of racks for everything to be just as I wanted.





The eagle eyed amongst you will also see yet another addition of a picture bass trap ( BB King)

This will be continued in the next post as there is a max of ten pictures per entry..

Top
#2233941 - 09/29/10 12:22 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK


I also got very fed up with mountains of cd jewel cases piled up in random places – never able to find what I wanted when I needed it, so I built in a couple of custom sized cd racks (3 of them, now overflowing as well.).






& finally today I even built yet another bass trap to use up what was left of the rockwool I had – and this ended up on the floor behind the listening seat – but hey – it was free, and it was a floor to wall corner boundary. This one is 12” thick by 3’ long and 2’ high as can be seen here :-





Please don’t ask if this does anything as I have not had a chance to listen yet – but I doubt it is going to be a huge change as there is so much already in place, I just didn’t want to bin the rockwool and oak faced mdf.
I also needed the space it was taking up valuable space in the warehouse that I needed.

Having spent over a year in the room now, everything is bedded in nicely, everything has a place (where it occasionally lives as well) and I have become fully aware of just what I have.

I have ‘tweaked’ every possible component in the system to the max (almost to an ocd level) to the point now that it is very easy to tell the time of day due to the sound the set makes.
Let me qualify that.
Mains supply (even after all of the precautions I have taken) can be variable as everyone knows. Mid day sessions midweek are fine, but from 8pm in the evening the whole thing takes on another life and it sings its heart out.
This means I have lowered the noise floor sufficiently to allow hearing of variable mains quality, which in turns means rather large isolation transformers will be shortly ordered to try and eliminate this (minor) annoyance.

I have a lot of friends who now come in and bring recordings ‘just to see what it sounds like in ‘that’ room’. It never ceases to amaze me, what with the kit available to engineers today that some can produce utter rubbish and others something that takes you to another place, purely by music.
I find it amusing when reps call to see me and end up staying way longer than they wanted to just so that they can hear their favourite tracks, or more usually, taking away a list of (very varied) music to buy.

To those who are about to start on a project, large or small, I would urge you to search this forum (as I did) and when stuck ask the correct question.
With a little bit of skill, DIY, and the correct tools, just about anything is doable with the products available today. I wish you good luck.

This was the first time I dabbled in acoustics, it was a huge learning curve, and I found it hugely enjoyable.
I had never built a wall in my life before (despite rebuilding various houses), so that was fun to – especially one that was 14’ high and completely vertical / flat. Even the corners ended up square – how that happened is beyond me.
The end result is one I’m very proud of and very happy with, to the extent of spending a lot of time in there.

Top
#2234246 - 09/30/10 09:38 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Truly excellent Steve. And I agree about how a clean sounding room lets you hear the good and the bad in recordings. Last year a good friend of mine brought a DVD movie to see and hear on my system. He was really surprised to hear slight distortion on some parts of the dialog and music. He has a decent system, but without RFZ reflection panels. He never noticed the distortion until he watched the DVD here at my place.

--Ethan

Top
#2292615 - 04/15/11 01:47 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A further update, and a very worthwhile one I hope.
Finally I have had the chance to have the room measured and put some figures to what I have been listening to.
A friend came over (Thanks Tim!) with his kit (purchased with advice from here) and put the room to test.

First its frequency response :-



This is un-smoothed and shows a large hump at around the 30Hz mark - certainly a room mode due to its dimensions, and very difficult to remove with rigid fibreglas.

A 'smoothed' version of the above :-



This does show something of interest to me - 3Db down @18Hz..

Then the waterfall :-



I dont know enough to say anything about what's going on here!

Now two of the RT60 :-
This with the door open & no trap in place.





Then with the door closed and trap in front of it :-



That's a result worth having I guess!

Anything worth doing in the space I have left Ethan?
I think my only option with the 30Hz hump would be a Helmholtz, but I honestly don't know if it's worth the effort?

Top
#2292782 - 04/16/11 08:14 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve2701
I think my only option with the 30Hz hump would be a Helmholtz, but I honestly don't know if it's worth the effort?


Probably not. Most music doesn't have much content that low.

--Ethan

Top
#2494884 - 05/20/13 12:39 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Hello Ethan & all - its been a good while, but I'm back, at least for a while.
Not much has changed in my office / music room for a while, save for a whole bunch of pictures on the front wall, all made as reflective traps by putting the framed pictures / posters onto 4" deep frames and filling them with RS80 rockwool.
I have a bunch more at the framers, and a few ready to go, but I ran out of solid oak angle, and having to buy a dozen lengths at a time = not particularly cheap..



I also added another pair of First Reflection traps right next to the corner traps at the front - due to new speakers with sideward firing woofers.

Not had the speakers for long enough to conduct a full set of experiments here, but looking good so far.

So, I'm back as I am building yet another office / music / dem room, this time for my wife, it's about time she got a room similar to mine I figured.
The rumours that I have actually run out of space to store CD's & vinyl albums, while entirely true, are wildly exaggerated - honest guvner <smile sweetly>

The new room will be directly adjacent to mine, and I will need to walk through it to gain access to mine.

It is partly old storage area and partly her 'old' office.
One wall is the party wall to the neighbours warehouse, and being constructed of 10" hollow concrete blocks is not entirely brilliant at sound blocking.
Another part of the wall will be my room, and yet another part will be to the rest of the warehouse and mezzanine floor,

All a bit complex, and required a bit of thinking on construction.
It is basically going to be a ''Box in a Box'' design, with plenty of acoustic caulk, timber, rockwool and platerboard (sheetrock) needed.

The final floor will be fully floated over the existing, and the ceiling will be fixed to the inner box walls only, all in an effort to stop sound transmission.

It's going to be built in several stages, due to the inevitable funding, time & physical constraints on just what can be achieved and how.
One end of the new room to be built first, then the lower end sealed from it & the old office demolished and then the new room completed from it.

The aim is to have a room at lest as good as mine - if not better, and incorporate as much information and knowledge that was gleaned from the first build.

Top
#2494905 - 05/20/13 01:05 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
To begin, the first part of the party wall was completely covered with plasterboard that was directly 'green glued' (using the UK equivalent) directly to it.
To this 3x2 timber battens were attached and screwed through to the blockwork.
These battens formed a grid into which RS60 rockwool was placed to start forming a sound block rear wall.
These were then sealed totally with yet more rockwool.
Every part was totally sealed edge to edge with acoustic caulk the help stocp flanking noise.
Then over the top of this framework a layer of plasterboard was applied to give 100% coverage, again edge sealed with acoustic caulk.
This formed the first part of the soundblock wall.



To the front of this a 20mm gap is made, then a further 4x2 framework is added - and kept fully away from the soundblock wall to stop transmission of vibration & hopefully noise.
A whole load of caulk and 4x2 later a full wall is complete to the first pillar in the room.

Hmm - those pillars caused some thinking. I cannot afford the room to fully leave a big gap round them, and dont want a protrusion into the room again, but they are another 10" concrete block in front of the existing wall, so will help a bit in themselves.
So to these I directly green glued 50mm RS80 rockwool, and these will become part of the final wall when covered with plasterboard.
The timber battens to attach the plasterboard here is stood 75mm away from the pillar either side, and the rockwool will stop the boards from reaching the physical blocks.





Top
#2494914 - 05/20/13 01:21 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK


To the left is the party wall to neighbours, being covered with the soundblock wall, then an inner floating wall of 4x2 made. Directly to the front is the existing office that will end up demolished and being the rear of the new room.

To the front right is the entrance to my room, and the right front is the upper mezzanine floor that opens to the rest of the warehouse.



This shows the inner 4x2 wall filled and sealed with 100mm RS60 rockwool.
The pillar is to the right and will show as uncovered by plasterboard in the next photo.



First part of the inner wall now covered with plasterboard and ready for next stage.



This is where the next part of the wall will be made, and include the entry door to the offices.



First part of the studwork completed upto the new doorway.
This will again be stuffed full of 75mm RS60, sealed both sides with plasterboard, and then have a 4x2 stud wall floated in front of it.
I am really hoping this amount of rockwool is doubly beneficial, both acting as soundbarrier and bass traps smile

Top
#2495168 - 05/21/13 09:47 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Very nice. You sure do like to work hard! thu

I wouldn't expect much sound blocking from rock wool alone, but a new wall could help. Are you aware of the dreaded "triple leaf" type wall? This simple figure is equal to more than 1,000 words:



--Ethan

Top
#2495202 - 05/21/13 12:04 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Ethan,
Thank you for that, I was not aware - a little more research = a rapid change in construction technique, thankfully I decided to come back here - I always seem to be learning.

Cheers for now.

Top
#2496984 - 05/28/13 11:44 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
After researching the leaf consruction and better methods of achieving what I want - a change to what had been done was needed, so a few hours turned this:



Into this:



With the plasterboard to the rear now..

This was then framed again for what will become the front face,and will allow for a lot easier making of the required traps in the room.



Put in a few electrics next and start covering the face - again. smile

Top
#2498977 - 06/04/13 02:44 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A fair bit more framing has happened since the last entry, all a bit the same as what has happened here before, but a *lot* of small detail work needed to be done - and that took the devils part of the time.
A heap of rockwool, and many metres of timber later, the room is finally coming together, well, at least the rear sector of it is.



Framed out the first corner trap, which will be above the desk and also house some lights. Added the wiring to it ready.
Started building the door frame - tis a big door..









This big hole should have become a wall today, but having the incorrect sized panels delivered saw that project out of the window. Tomorrow it will now be..



The areas not covered with plasterboard will eventually become 'built in' traps of various sorts, hopefully!

Top
#2498980 - 06/04/13 02:53 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
This is how it ended up today just before I had a play with some new speakers, hopefully bound for the new office.




Top
#2499201 - 06/05/13 10:28 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Looking good! thu

--Ethan

Top
#2499269 - 06/05/13 01:17 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Ethan Winer]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Looks are slightly deceptive here, as all that appears to have happened in several hours of work is that half a wall has finally grown, well, that's my excuse.
That is part of a 10x6 sheet of melamine faced chipboard (needed to make the outside wall at least slightly smart) which has been cut to size, double edging strip added, hoisted into place, then covered on the inside with 2 layers of plasterboard. A few dozen screws hold it in place along with green glue equivalent.

I am so looking forward to start the real interesting stuff shortly - bass traps galore :-)




Top
#2499576 - 06/06/13 01:49 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Getting this last panel into place in one piece (for neatness outside) was huge fun - honest.
Two of us cussing and swearing for twenty minutes with just an inch above to spare before it decided to sit obediently into place, wondering what all the fuss was about.




It very quickly got covered with two layers of plasterboard.




Started on the framing, only to discover I was almost out of 3x2..
Great time to run out when your on a roll.



Absolutely no ammount of bullying, fixing and general faffing about is ever going to get this last one straight :-(



So called on Heath Robbinson to see if he could oblige (builders yard is closed)
Is it load bearing? - NO
Is it seen? NO
We can do it with the off cuts?
OK..



Then we ran out of off cuts, but being 8.55pm it was actually beer o'clock, so I left him looking longingly at the bin full of 6" & shorter end pieces :-)

Top
#2500221 - 06/09/13 01:04 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Next bit of framing, along with some first fix electrics.
Very nearly ready for the ceiling to be started - then the fun with the associated wall/boundary traps can once again begin :-)






I also need some time to work out exactly what I'm going to do with the lighting control unit that I spent so long getting just right. It's now right in the way..


Top
#2505006 - 06/22/13 11:37 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Not that much to update with this week unfortunately, due to the ceiling joists being on back order until next week.
This has, however, given me chance to do a lot of 'finishing off' jobs that would normally be left till last (or possibly not at all ;-) ) and also to move the lighting control system right out of the way for now. I didn't quiet fancy pulling all the cables just yet from a ladder, so moved it up the wall a ways. When the ceiling is in place it can all be done in relative comfort by standing on the new roof.

I also removed the step up to my office - and forgot just how big a step it is without it being there. It hurts first time one falls down it! New temp step now in place.

Then moved on to getting ready to just place the joists in place by sealing the gap between the walls fully and stopping any flanking noise from getting in (no small job in itself, using a good many tubes of sealant) This made a big hole in the existing ceiling!



Then an even bigger one :-(


Having literally run out of everything now, rockwool, timber framing, plywood, and it being the weekend, decided to leave as is until Monday and re-stock.

Gives me time to get on with another 15 - odd picture traps for the room.





Lets hope I have a bit more to show next time around.
Cheers.

Top
#2505637 - 06/24/13 02:42 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
A few new tools allow for the building of the small picture traps to be an awful lot easier than they were last time around.

A very accurate mitre square for the saw :-



A pocket hole jig





Bessey clamp





all make the job easier and more of a pleasure to do.




Top
#2505639 - 06/24/13 02:50 PM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
Finally this morning a new load of timber arrived - while I was out collecting a new load of rockwool :-)

I got back to find 80% of it un-usable, there not being a single straight piece in them. most were completely banana shaped and in twist as well. Great.
Called to get the lot swapped out, and when they came with a new (and way better) shipment, oh joy - the ceiling joists were with them as well.
They are all perfect fortunately.
A few hours later saw the last bit of framing before existing office removal and the first joist in tempoary place.
Now it gets interesting :-)






Top
#2505876 - 06/25/13 10:31 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Steve2701 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 217
Loc: West Mids, UK
I had quiet forgotten just how complex filling in the gap between the joists actually is, to completely block any flanking noise getting in via the tiniest of gaps.
Last time it just took some packing pieces and then a big concrete block between them did the job, this time around it's a tad different.
Having got a pair of joists completely level both across and along (dont ask - long story and goes back over 25yrs, nowt to do with me :-) )
it is going to take - per pair of joists
4 - 565mm spacer bars = 45mm sq.
8 - packing pieces 45x30x212mm
2 - blocking boards 25mm thick, 565x300mm
6 - plaster board pieces 212 x 600mm
2 - 3 tubes of acoustic sealant.
loads of 60mm, 50mm and 100mm screws.
having 9 prs of joists, plus the run down both sides plus one end to seal, thats an awful lot of cutting, planeing and precise measuring.
Each pair of joists will be filled with 50mm RS80 covered with fabric to form the ceiling, then 200mm of fluffy fibreglass to form a full filling.
Top will be sealed with 20mm ply, then another layer run in opposite directions.
It should provide a nice storage area as well..

So, a pair of spacers top and bottom @565mm, each side filled with a 212mm filler piece, all screwed into place with sealant between each mating face.



25mmthick blanking plate sealed at all edges where it meets the fillets and spacers screwed into place.



3 pieces of 600mm x 212mm x 12.5mm plasterboard all sealed and screwed into place forms a rigid box and sealed to the outside.



One pair of joists sealed as above plus another in place ready to go tomorrow when I get into work..

Top
#2506208 - 06/26/13 11:55 AM Re: Wall boundary trapping. [Re: Steve2701]
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Thanks Steve, keep 'em coming. thu

Top
Page 4 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  Ethan Winer