Hey guys,

There is an awesome video on youtube which compares a real Hammond organ to a C1. He also compares the sim to a real leslie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAqjAcSvxzE

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fntcjlcJuo

WOW!

And here's his comparison of the Nord's leslie sim vs a Leslie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fntcjlcJuo

(EDIT: oops. Bhodaway, I see now that you already had this link to the Leslie comparison in your post. Somehow, I missed that.)

I still would put my XK-3C up against a Nord any day of the week.

That was pretty impressive.

No new gear for me for a while - but I could see selling my Nord Stage 88 and buying one of those.

Would miss the physical drawbars on my XK-3, though.

Question:
I would hear the NS88 organ compared to the C1. I bet they are pretty darned close

At 33 lbs. I like.

They're really not, I own both and the C1 is far superior. Just a more realistic, warmer, ballsier sound, no comparison. Then of course you have the double manual, waterfall keys and a nice synth bass sound you can use instead of the B3 bass sound. Put it this way, till I got the C1, I thought the stage had a great organ sound, now I never use the organ sound on the stage.

John

John, now I really feel schlocky about playing my generic "organ patches" from the S90....haha.

Curious, is the C1 small enough to work has a second tier board?
He was playing on top of a B3, so I'm thinking maybe it would go flat on the CP300?

I had thought about that when I had the CP but never actually tried it because my computer monitor was on it. I don't think it would work because the C1 is too deep, I think its about 17.5 inches deep. Maybe if you had something to support the back. Here's the dimensions, 37.25" wide x 6.5" high x 17.25", how far apart are the speakers on the CP300?

John

While I was in Vegas, I passed by a bar in the Palazzo casino. The man playing the grand piano had a C1 on top of where the music rest usually goes.

B.

The internal Leslie sim vs. real Leslie is funny because he says "as you can probably hear, Nord has done a perfect job with the Leslie simulator." Uh, no. Actually, the real Leslie sounds much better. No big surprise. I personally think Leslie sims are a waste of time. Nothing, I repeat, nothing can take the place of moving air.

I'm also wary of these kind of videos where they don't even bother with capturing the audio professionally and instead rely on the cheap microphone in the camcorder. Really, is that the best way to judge the intricacies of the two sound sources?

It actually inspired me to make my own video comparing my 1958 B3 and the XK3 through a Leslie 122, mic'd with studio quality microphones and preamps. But unfortunately I cannot get my computer to capture the video from my DV camera. I've done it before successfully, but for some reason the computer decided today to just hang when I attempt to capture. I tried to troubleshoot it for almost 6 hours today, even buying a new firewire PCI card. No luck.

When I get it on YouTube, I'll let you guys know.

Watching through the Leslie one again, all the way through, the bass rotor isn't right for a single speed. Single speed Leslie bass rotors take FOREVER to stop, which is part of their charm and why I still use true single speed Leslies.

In fact, if you time it, when he hits the switch on the real Hammond, the bottom rotor has not even stopped by the time he lifts his hands off the keys, 7 seconds after switching. On the Nord, it has stopped within four seconds.

I know, I'm nitpicking. But if you throw around adjectives like "perfect", it better actually be a perfect, dead-on simulation. Otherwise all your're doing is displaying your bias.

fascinating comparison. the audio quality was sufficient for me to hear that they were remarkably similar when the nord and hammond were played through the same leslie.

clavia should pay this guy to use his video.

Exactly! That's my only complaint about the C1, the Nord Stage and the Electro - they all slow down a bit too quickly. I wonder if the people at Clavia have a sluggish Leslie as reference... Running the C1 through the Leslie 3300 takes care of that problem.

Like he said, there can be more variations between two Hammond consoles than between that particular Hammond and the Nord, and the Nord isn't the most tweakable, the XK-3 wins in the flexibility department. The new Diversi modelling organ will probably nail any Hammond. At a price.

I agree with B3-er in the leslie simulation department, especially if you are a feature player in a band, and not just 'the keyboard player' I have gone the Hamichord route after selling my XK3 traditional dual manual system. I already have the VB3 software (new version released in the last 5 days) so I know what Im getting tone wise, and it will be used with a 122. I sold the Hammond XK3 because while liking the basic tone, the vibrato/chorus and percussion let it down. Im also not that bothered about looks, makes no difference to me. I choose the Hamichord over the Diversi (KeyB) because I honestly believe the VB3 is as good and if not better than the Diversi/KeyB. I have heard the Diversi and the Leslie sounds 'phasey' If ever you want to hear a video where the Key/Diversi sounds ordinary then check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpdUtfGKfOA

There is a £600 GBP price difference between the KeyB organ and the Hamichord. I can get a nice 122 for that if I did'nt already have one. Plus I get the 11 pin out, reverse presets and it's 7kg lighter than the KeyB stuff.

Anyway, hope to get it this weekend.

Well hear the new XK-3C and check out the reviews on it. I thought Harmony-Central was pro-Nord more than here. Guess I was wrong.

I have played the XK3C and found it to not be that much of an improvement in the points I raised if any IMO. I tried it at a Hammond UK show and I spoke to their guy and he admitted that it was'nt really worth buying the upgrade if you already owned an XK3. Im not interested in the extra midi functions and all the other stuff that goes with it. All I want want is ONE good organ sound, and not all the submenu tweaks that go with it.

I very rarely trust or pay any attention to reviews. Let's face it, you have spent a shed load of money on an XK3C then proceed to go onto Harmony Central and say 'it's not that good really' I can't see anyone doing that.

That's the problem with most of these things is that people are automatically swayed because they just laid down a couple thousand dollars for their clonewheel.

The Nord sounds very good, no doubt about it. But to use an adjective like "perfect" is misleading, imo. The XK3 is even closer, imo, which you'll hear if I can get my dang video posted!

b3boy, did you tweak the XK3? It really does not come from the factory sounding as good as it can. I tweaked every single parameter of it; chorus/vibrato, percussion, key click, all the digital tonewheels, etc.

I need to get this video up so you can hear how good it can sound.

Well I got hold of your tonewheel set Jim, (thanks for sending it) and it does offer another tonal quality to an XK3, I found it to be quite mellower than the stock set. I play an early 70's C3 which is quite bright, my friend has a 57 B3 and boy does it mellow and the cho/vib sounds different with age and capacitor changes. But overall i prefer my 70's C3, it's much more ballsy and cutting I have found. But as we all know, everyone is different and everyone prefers different vintages.

The Nord has a nice tone, but I can't use lights for drawbars.

I do not base any clone purchase on it's internal sim as it's a non starter. I have also grown out of the 'it has to be a Hammond tonewheel or nothing' Im going to be quite happy taking 20.5kg of dual manual 4 sets of draws out with me. The reason I choose Hamichord and not the Diversi engine is that Guido the VB3 developer is constantly updating it. Diversi/KeyB offers no such facility for the user to update, and any organ modelling has to go to the manufacturer. A lot of emphasis on the Diversi/KeyB stuff is on the internal leslie. Take that away and you have a vsti ran on a controller, same as Hamichord only a heck of a lot more expensive. I quite like the idea that it can be kept current with the latest software too.

Sorry to hijack the thread, back to the Hammond/Nord Well my friend was going to buy my XK3 a couple of weeks back. He already has a C1. He came over and I had it plugged into the 122. He was totally smitten until he asked me to remove the leslie. Needless to say he kept the C1. XK3/c has to be external leslie'd other wise it's not good IMO. C1 has got a great internal leslie.

I'm glad you're happy with the VB3. You missed an opportunity to create a tonewheel set based on that snappy C3 you have, though, and share it with us!

I agree that the XK3 needs an external Leslie. But I hate Leslie sims anyway. There is no substitute for moving air.

I haven't heard the Stage organ side-by-side with the C1, but I was very surprised to find the C1 far superior to my Electro. I had assumed they used the same basic engine and would be more similar than they are. Here is my assessment from just after getting the C1:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads...rue#Post1948736

This guy is just IN LOVE with his Nord C1!

“It is just peeerrrrrfect in every way.”

Well, no mention of the lack of real drawbars…. But maybe that’s peeerrrfect for him…

This guy is unbelievable... There is a huge sonic difference between the Nord Leslie and the real Leslie... Especially in the speed of the rotors. His expectations must be pretty low to call this "perfect".

This weird negativity is so perplexing! The B3/C1 comparison video was pretty carefully executed, and the guy is clearly a very good B3 player who loves the sound and playablity of a real B3. Sure, he didn't use high end audio, or comment on the obvious lack of drawbars. And, yup, he tended to speak a bit broadly at times....

But the video was just so darned compelling!
Maybe that's why it has created such anxiety among B3 and Hammond XK3'rs out there...

(And, for the record, I own an XK3 and a 1957 C3)

I think what this guy did was just great

I think he said the slow-down & speed-up rates are tweakable, so you could probably make the bottom rotor slow down slower.

+1

I agree with B3-er that getting into the editable parameters of the XK-3 original or the newer XK-3C is a must. Not that it didn't come out of the box sounding good, but having the ability to tweak certain aspects of the sound to achieve the Hammond sound that appeals to you is terrific.

I've played the KeyB, the Nord C1, various software organs and of course many real Hammonds. Most all were acceptable but of course there are differences, some subtle and others not so much. The advantage of the Nord C1 is having two manuals and being so light in weight, and it sounds good. The advantage of the KeyB is that it is possible to duplicate any particular vintage tonewheel Hammond (although to my understanding this is not something the user can do) and the Leslie sim is quite amazing in person. The advantage of the XK-3 is when doing true organ gigs that require two manuals, there is the XK-3L lower manual and stand, but in cases where a single manual will do the lower manual can be left at home. The XK-3 also has preset keys to the left of the keyboard and real drawbars which is more comfortable for old-school Hammond players. And the XK-3 has the ability to replicate the intricacies of your favorite vintage tonewheel Hammond and can be done by the user very easily.

Dave

I don't know about that. To me having separate Ch/Vib on each manual is worth an upgrade to me.