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One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
#1922491 04/05/08 10:05 PM
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I am wondering if anyone has developed a single pedal that has two 1/4 jacks for sustain control on 2 keyboards as opposed to using midi??


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922494 04/05/08 10:10 PM
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Sachimay, you're going to give yourself an aneurism with this, and I'm not sure why you're trying to do this.... but just buy a second pedal.

If you want to sustain both boards at the same time (sounds like a recipe for sonic soup to me, but whatever), put them (the pedals) side by side.


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sven Golly #1922500 04/05/08 10:26 PM
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Just to follow up, my reason for suggestion you avoid this setup like the plague is because it's entirely restrictive. If you ever want to sustain just one of your two boards, you'll have to reach over and unplug the cable from the board you don't want to sustain... this is a headache just waiting to happen.

Of course, if you want to go down that path, it's easy enough. Grab a splitter adaptor - single 1/4" MONO Female to dual 1/4" MONO Male (provided your two keyboards are close enough together on the stand), and plug the jack from the pedal into the adaptor, and the two male ends into the sustain pedal inputs on your keyboard. Voila, one sustain pedal, two keyboards, totally inflexible setup. ;\)

Edited to add a picture of the adaptor you don't want, but that will work:


Hosa YPP-106

(hint: if you buy one that has two different-colored wires, you've got the wrong one and it won't do what you think you might want to do, but that you really really don't... ;\) )

Last edited by Sven Golly; 04/05/08 10:28 PM.

"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sven Golly #1922503 04/05/08 10:32 PM
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well, I have been gigging with a Yamaha CP300 and a Nord Electro 2 using one sustain pedal for a few years now with no problem...but I am trying to use a controller, yamaha motif module and the nord with one pedal and it wont work...so one pedal with 2 connects would be so easy...


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"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." A. Einstein
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922505 04/05/08 10:37 PM
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Both rigs are (from a MIDI standpoint) identical, so how did you set things up with your CP300/Electro 2? (and why is the new rig causing you problems, as outlined in your earlier thread)?


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922507 04/05/08 10:43 PM
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cool...that would be perfect...thanks


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"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." A. Einstein
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922513 04/05/08 11:13 PM
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I have a chord running midi-out on the yamaha into the Nord midi-in...but I now have the nord connected to the "thru" midi-port on the module....why am I hearing the nord sounds layered with the module when I play the controller....the sustain seems to work for both, but it seems the controller is controlling both the module and the nord


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922514 04/05/08 11:14 PM
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I don't get it. For using one pedal with both boards to make any sense, you'd have to be playing the exact same thing on each board all the time, which defeats the purpose of having two keyboards. Or you'd have to never play both at the same time, which is a slightly different, but still sucky issue.

To each his own I guess. If you say you've been doing it that way for years with no problem, then so be it.

Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922515 04/05/08 11:20 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sachimay
I have a chord running midi-out on the yamaha into the Nord midi-in...but I now have the nord connected to the "thru" midi-port on the module....why am I hearing the nord sounds layered with the module when I play the controller....the sustain seems to work for both, but it seems the controller is controlling both the module and the nord


I'm no MIDI expert, but it seems like you have to set the Nord and the module to respond to different MIDI channels. Otherwise, if you have both connected at once to the same controller, then yes, they would sound at the same time. For instance, set the Nord to receive on channel 1 and the module to channel 2. Then, if you only want to play the Nord, set your controller to send only on channel 1, and the same for channel 2 if you want to only play the module.

Maybe there's another answer. I don't use MIDI a whole lot.

Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Bridog6996 #1922516 04/05/08 11:21 PM
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I am playing jazz for the most part and 90% of the time I am playing piano on the yamaha, but use the Nord for the Rhodes, Wurly and occasional Organ...


www.dandechellis.com

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." A. Einstein
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922517 04/05/08 11:22 PM
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I wonder if an AB-Y switch would work?


Keys: Kurzweil PC3 & PC1se, Alesis QS6.1, Casio PX700,
Guitars: Strat Plus, Les Paul Std, Washburn HB35, Martin DC-16RGTE
Amps: Mackie SRM450, Fender Cyber Twin & Studio 85

Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
rdownton #1922618 04/06/08 09:52 AM
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I'm not sure, but that Hosa adapter Sven suggested might just do the trick.....

I might also pick up a second sustain pedal for the rock gigs I do, but for jazz gigs, one pedal is all I need...

I can certainly see how having 2 pedals would be nice, but when trying to simulate an acoustic setting, one is all i want, since in my head I'm imagining I am playing a full steinway grand...


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"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." A. Einstein
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922627 04/06/08 10:51 AM
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Sigh... okay, maybe I'm going to have the aneurism first.

Sachimay, did you read the MIDI tutorial link I posted? This would make this a hell of a lot easier.

Okay... when you connect a MIDI cable from the OUT of a keyboard into the IN of another keyboard (or a module), the first keyboard sends a copy of everything you're doing (hitting a key, pushing a button, moving a slider/knob, or pressing a pedal) out the MIDI OUT port.

Whatever that MIDI OUT is connected to (in your case above, the module) is receiving that data; those keystrikes, the knob/slider moves, and the pedal presses).

The module (and indeed every device with MIDI IN, OUT & THRU connections) sends an exact copy of everything it receives at the MIDI IN jack directly out the MIDI THRU jack; absolutely everything.

Is that clear?

If so, you know understand that the Nord (which is connected via the module's MIDI THRU into the Nord's MIDI IN) is going to receive [b]an exact copy of everything that your module receives
. Yes? We're good?

So now when you hit a note (let's say Middle C, just to keep life simple... ;\) ), the controller keyboard transmits that note on to the module. The module says 'thanks', makes the sound of whatever patch you've got selected, maybe piano, maybe a tuba) and also passes the exact same signal on to the Nord. The Nord says 'thanks' and plays whatever sound it has currently selected (let's say you've got the Wurlitzer sound active). Voila, MIDI works, exactly as designed!

The scenario above assumes that you've got all your gear set up in 'default' mode, which means that everything is happening on MIDI Channel 1. The controller is transmitting on Ch. 1, the Motif rack is listening on Ch. 1, the Nord is listening on Ch. 1.

Okay, so now you want to have the Nord stop playing notes that you're sending out from the controller. Simple. Change the Nord to a channel that isn't being used. For this example, let's use channel 16, just to be extreme about it.

So now the controller is transmitting on Ch.1, the Motif is listening on Ch. 1, and the Nord is listening to Ch. 16. Play a note on the controller, and the Motif makes the Middle C Tuba noise, and the Nord doesn't do anything. That's exactly as per the design of MIDI; "if it's not on the channel I'm listening to, I'm going to ignore it" says the Nord. Beautiful.

Now, let's talk about the sustain pedal.

The guys that designed MIDI were pretty smart. They said "hey, if someone is playing a piano part, and they want to sustain the sound, we should probably pass a message over the MIDI cable each time the pedal's depressed and released, so whatever's on the receiving end knows what's going on."

Pretty smart guys, those MIDI creators. \:\)

So then they said "yeah, but if someone's controlling a bunch of different sounds, say some from a sequencer, or from multiple keyboards, we don't necessarily want the sustain on/off to affect ALL the sounds, that would be silly!"

So what did they do? They designed the MIDI specification such that all control signals that affect your playing (sustain, volume, modulation, pitch bend) are limited to the Channel that they're created on.

Makes sense, yes? We don't want to be sustaining our sax solo happening on Ch. 5 when we sustain the piano on Ch. 1, right?

So now we realize that our sustain pedal on/off is going to be sent out on the MIDI channel that it's using. In our example above, that means it will be sustaining anything listening/playing on Channel 1. That means not the Nord, because it's on Ch. 16.

If you want the Nord to sustain, you'll have to change the controller to now send on Ch. 16, which means it'll also be playing whatever notes you're playing on the controller (because they're also happening on Ch. 16 now). Oh, and the Motif is no longer doing anything, because it's only listening to Ch. 1.

Okay, so hopefully this makes it clear why you're hearing the Nord sounds AND the Motif sounds at the same time... yes?


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922630 04/06/08 10:58 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sachimay
I'm not sure, but that Hosa adapter Sven suggested might just do the trick.....


I guarantee it'll work, as long as the two keyboards (controller & Nord) are close enough together to plug in both of those male ends. There are other solutions involving female ends on the splitter and short instrument cables to the keyboard sustain inputs.

 Quote:

I might also pick up a second sustain pedal for the rock gigs I do, but for jazz gigs, one pedal is all I need...


Not if you ever play piano + organ in the same song.

Jeez, man, just give up already and buy the $15 pedal, and save everyone the headache (most importantly yourself): ;\)


clonk here





"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sven Golly #1922638 04/06/08 11:20 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
 Originally Posted By: sachimay
I'm not sure, but that Hosa adapter Sven suggested might just do the trick.....


I guarantee it'll work, as long as the two keyboards (controller & Nord) are close enough together to plug in both of those male ends. There are other solutions involving female ends on the splitter and short instrument cables to the keyboard sustain inputs.

 Quote:

I might also pick up a second sustain pedal for the rock gigs I do, but for jazz gigs, one pedal is all I need...


Not if you ever play piano + organ in the same song.

Jeez, man, just give up already and buy the $15 pedal, and save everyone the headache (most importantly yourself): ;\)


clonk here






or.... and I've been wondering, unless satchmo lives on the moon, why he doesn't just take all his stuff down to the music store and get someone to plug the stuff in so it works, or not, to his satisfaction?



Rod
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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sven Golly #1922660 04/06/08 11:52 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Sigh... okay, maybe I'm going to have the aneurism first.



Hah! Outlasted you!


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
mate stubb #1922897 04/06/08 08:59 PM
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Sven,

Your dissertation was helpful to a degree, but in the end it doesnt seem to solve my problem. I realize how not to hear the Nord when I play the controller, yet I still dont know how to use the single sustain pedal with both the Nord and Module without the Nord recieving Note Commands....when I had this setup with my CP300, I simply set the Yamaha to not recieve Note commands and it works just fine...

I have read that the Nord transmits and recieves on the same channel, i am wondering if this is the problem...no where does it seem possible for me to set the Nord to only recieve Control commands, nor can I set the Yamaha Module to only transmit control commands and not note...

It seems as though I am going to go buy a second pedal afterall...


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"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." A. Einstein
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1922904 04/06/08 09:17 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sachimay
It seems as though I am going to go buy a second pedal afterall...


I seem to recall someone saying that near the beginning of this (and the other) thread... ;\)


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sven Golly #1923077 04/07/08 11:08 AM
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I reccomend the Hosz YPP-111 instead; this will avoid the cable length problem mentioned above:



It's the same thing Sven suggested above, but with two females rather than two males. As he mentioned, make sure it's the MONO adaptor (both legs same color) and not a stereo one (legs different colors).

Plug the pedal into either female, plug the male into either keyboard, and use a short 1/4" cable to connect the other female to the other keyboard.

It's certainly not how I'd want my rig set up, but if it's what he wants, he can do it very easily. On the other hand, if he gets a 2nd sustain pedal he might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm coordination-challenged (i.e., clumsy as a drunken ox), especially full-body stuff -- I couldn't imagine ever playing drums. Yet, first time I had 2 keyboards to play (Rhodes and CP70) I was amazed to find that as long as my left foot went with my left keyboard and right foot with right keyboard, the feet pretty much operated themselves.

Sachimay, you may find that it comes naturally. It certainly gives you more control, and is less stuff to connect. I say try two pedals and go for the Y cable only if it doesn't work out (or as training wheels for gigs before you're confident).

Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
JeffLearman #1923086 04/07/08 11:23 AM
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i had a session yesterday and realized that a second pedal might be good for different settings...i think when doing the straigh-ahead jazz gig, i would use just one, but doing the jam / rock thing I could see 2 pedals being useful....besides, I spoke with the Nord people and apparently its not really possible for me to do what i want anyway, so I would need a second pedal, unless of course I use one of the HOSA adapters....

Last edited by sachimay; 04/07/08 11:24 AM.

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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
JeffLearman #1923088 04/07/08 11:25 AM
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The Electro receives on the channel it transmits (dumb).

One sustain pedal, two keyboards: dumb.

Even an acoustic piano has at least two pedals; and no one will be looking at your pedal configuration, even in a jazz club, and think less of you. They'll be freaking out over the little red keyboard first! (I like mine so screw em.)


Your last post about Nord not receiving note commands and setting your Yamaha (CP or Motif module?) to "not receive note commands" baffles the feces out of me.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with your rig; maybe if you could elaborate, we could be of more help. Although I would still tell you to go buy a pedal.


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
JeffLearman #1923094 04/07/08 11:33 AM
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Why not try a double pedal with 2 1/4-inch plugs. Kurzweil makes a real solid one http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/Product.php?product=97 the KFP-2M. If you need to sustain both you can step on both at once without too much trouble.
Mark


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Tonysounds #1923100 04/07/08 11:41 AM
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I could care less about what people think of my pedals, its how Ive been playing for a long time now, and it works for me...I dont understand why people have such issue with this....??

For nearly 2 years, i have simply plugged my Nord into my Yamaha cp300 and used one sustain pedal for both keyboards...what more do I have to say. I didnt have to use a splitter and the keyboards would not be layered in sound. I was able to set the yamaha so that it would not transmit NOTE information to the Nord, just CONTROL (sustain pedal) information...

For some reason I can't seem to do this with the Yamaha Motif...


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sparky2 #1923101 04/07/08 11:43 AM
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I have two pedals.
They are close together in case I need to smush em at once.

Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sparky2 #1923102 04/07/08 11:43 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Sparky2
Why not try a double pedal with 2 1/4-inch plugs. Kurzweil makes a real solid one http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/Product.php?product=97 the KFP-2M. If you need to sustain both you can step on both at once without too much trouble.
Mark


Thanks for the suggestion, but at this point I think I'm just gonna buy another single and be done....


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Tonysounds #1923294 04/07/08 04:48 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tonysounds
Your last post about Nord not receiving note commands and setting your Yamaha (CP or Motif module?) to "not receive note commands" baffles the feces out of me.


The O.P. doesn't understand MIDI, so he's misusing terms (it should be 'not transmit note on/off messages').

 Quote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with your rig; maybe if you could elaborate, we could be of more help.


What, I wasn't helpful?!?!?!?!?


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
Sven Golly #1923342 04/07/08 06:09 PM
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 Originally Posted By: sachimay
For nearly 2 years, i have simply plugged my Nord into my Yamaha cp300 and used one sustain pedal for both keyboards...what more do I have to say. I didnt have to use a splitter and the keyboards would not be layered in sound. I was able to set the yamaha so that it would not transmit NOTE information to the Nord, just CONTROL (sustain pedal) information...


What more did you have to say? Well, the part about altering the settings on the Yamaha would have been nice at the start of the thread. ;\)

 Quote:
For some reason I can't seem to do this with the Yamaha Motif...


Because the Motif doesn't filter events that are passed to the MIDI THRU port, it merely passes the data through (hence the name).

The fact that you've separated the keyboard (controller) from the sound source (Motif) prevents you from doing the same thing with your new setup (if you tried, the Motif wouldn't receive note information either, which sort of defeats the purpose, yes? ;\) ).


"Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them."
Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1923364 04/07/08 06:43 PM
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Wow, has this maybe gotten a bit contentious? If the guy wants to pass CC64 but nothing else, can't we let him do it?

Sachimay, I bet MIDI Solutions either already has a box that will do exactly what you want to do (maybe look at event processors first?) or they can cook one up.

Larry.

Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
iLaw #1923425 04/07/08 08:48 PM
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[quote=iLaw]Wow, has this maybe gotten a bit contentious? If the guy wants to pass CC64 but nothing else, can't we let him do it?

certainly feels that way.....ask a simple question and be made to feel like a fool....

I have to ask, for those of us playing Jazz, if you are working with a piano and fender rhodes or wurly, and you are comping with your left on one board and soloing on another, do you actually use 2 sustain pedals? This makes no sense to me. In an ideal world I would be playing acoustic pianos all the time, but I'm not, so to do what i would normally do on a piano (one sustain pedal) I do with my 2 keybaords. Does this seem rediculous? I really don't think so....


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Re: One sustain pedal, 2 keyboards
sachimay #1923447 04/07/08 09:35 PM
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So... on an acoustic piano you comp on the same keyboard, and you sustain with one pedal. And you prefer this style.

But on a digital piano or a real Rhodes or a "wurly" (gawd I hate that term) you wouldn't comp on the same keyboard?

The diff???


Rod
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