http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010801/3521282s.htm

What do you think?

I agree. I used to think "MTV" stood for "MUSIC Television".

Remember that "Where's the beef?" lady?

Where's the music? Where's the good taste? (I'm not talking about preaching morals or anything, I'm just talking about good taste).

I haven't watched MTV in years. On the occasion I flipped through the channels, they were showing that "Road Rules" or whatever crap:

(Sue): "I'm pissed at Sarah 'cause she's a bitch and she's sleeping with Michael."

(Michael): "Sue's a prima donna and she deserves what she gets."

(Sarah): "Sue's just pissed 'cause I'm not sleeping with her anymore."

(Michael): "Well, I'll sleep with both of you if you want."

What has this to do with music?

The music has went to hell too.......I see more rap, girl groups, boy groups, than legitimate rock acts. Of course I don't watch it intentionally, but I have two teenagers at home.....
The only thing I've found semi interesting is Tom Greene and Jackass. I liked Eon Flux...but that was short lived. Reminded me of Heavy Metal days. Saw a cool special about Neil Young last night on VH1......but even VH1 is hit and miss these days.
I know this is sorta silly, but I used to love the days when our only place to see Rock on TV was on Don Kirchners In Concert, and the rest of the time we were listening to FM late night stations, and looking at our new issue of National Lampoon......this is back when FM was still sorta underground. Now Fm is part of the corporation........

i wish mtv would bring back the show 'liquid television' now that was quality material. if im not mistaken, thats where eon flux came from. i also enjoyed eon, very cool! but my favorite off that show was the 'plymptoons' by Bill Plympton. pure genius i must say.

jackass is a hillarious show. where else can you see Santa Clause recieving a colonic (ewww, why does that stick out in my mind?)
mtv still has some good programs they show every now and then. but if you want to see any decent videos, you can either get mtv2 or wait til about 2 in the morning when mtv actually plays videos. if mtv got rid of the shows that have absolutely nothing to do with music, they would probably once again be a good channel. but thats just my oppinion, who cares what i have to say.

SactoG

Screw MTV... build your own low-power (actually high power) pirate FM transmitter!

This is a scary topic for me personally...

Years ago, before I started doing my own music, I was a bassist in this one band. The lead singer was THE BIGGEST pompous snob when it came to what was "cool" or "hip" in music. Just one exaample: he refused to sing one song I wrote for him because it had the word "love" in it - in his view that was too "cliche." You couldn't play ANYTHING without this dude anal-lizing it to death. Think Miles Davis, but without talent: that's sort of what we were dealing with.

Guess what this mutherf*cker goes on to do after he gives up on his music carreer? He goes to work for MTV as the producer of "Remote Control," which was the cheesiest, corniest, most idiotically stupid sh*t ever to be broadcast at the time; a program that is the epitome of MTV's downward slide - really marking the beginning of the end for that station if I recall.

It's truly amazing, how some peeps go so quickly from saints to whores when there's some $$$ waived in front of them.

I did luv Liquid Television, and Aeon Flux was awesome. I rented some of her episodes on video recently, but the best ones are the very first series when there was no dialogue. I thought the corny voiceovers dampened the intrigue a bit.

My older brother tells me that MTV calculates better ratings by airing those stupid 30 minute shows that kids will stay tuned for, rather than risk losing their attention by showing a music vid they might not like. "Real World" doesn't have to pay writers, directors, or professional actors, so it's cheap. As far as those poor little teens who got spewed with shit on the set of "Dude, This Sucks," well, the show wasn't called that for nothing! I'm sure that sucked! It serves the little f*ckers right, IMO.

Eric

simple fact, MTV isn't programming for you/us anymore. you/us are now too old. we're NOT supposed to like it... that would make it very UNCOOL for the kids...sad but true!

-d. gauss

Maybe to celebrate the 20 year aniversary, they should play a video.

NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!!!

I could probably dig up a guy (radio engineer and hobbyist) that would help me...hehehehe...(evil laugh).

You mean they still have MTV?

I haven't watched it since 1985, and even back then all the videos just looked like beer commercials to me. And MTV has no football games, so what good is it?

Fact is - IT'S A BUSINESS! The purpose of a business is to maximize profits. They have higher ratings and can generate more ad revenue with shows than videos.

If you miss MTV, change the channel (or try MTV2), or turn off the TV and play or put on a CD!

Can you say Heathkit????? I've always wanted to do that........but....

As I understand it, TV ratings are based on the viewer being tuned into a station for at least 8 minutes. Anything less doesn't count. MTV in their infinite wisdom discovered that if they play videos, people are likely to tune in for 3-6 minutes, then flip the channel when a video comes on they don't like. So what they've done is create TRL, which is supposed to lock viewers into a half hour "show" based around videos. That way, they can get their ratings. It's really sad. I remember when I was in high school, we would get home, and "Headbangers Ball" was on at 3:00 in the afternoon - every day. Now you have to wait till midnight on saturday.

i spent many years working in the TV business and this is indeed correct. also why VH1 has pop-up video, 100 best, etc. it's all about the ratings. no ratings, no ad dollars.

-d. gauss

Ok, here's a few questions:

Remember videos that were interesting? For example:

[*]The Cars - You Might Think; Cheesy video recording, but excellent digital effects that supported the silliness of the song. Great concept.

[*]Michael Jackson - Thriller and Beat It; Both strong concepts. Dancing supported the tone of the song, not just "how hip can we be?"

[*]Van Halen - Jump, Hot For Teacher; Jump is the quintessential, non-concert performance video. We LOVED seeing them have a great time being goofy. Speaking of goofy, young versions of the band, in school, for Hot For Teacher? It was hilarious. (Ok, Panama was a fun song, but a lame video. )

[*]Devo - Whip It!; And we thought their SONGS were strange!

[*]Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime; Great live concert video with something to watch, but not fireworks!

This is a SHORT list of acts from a variety of genres that used to get played in the same set. They became a force in television based on this type of lineup, but still fall prey to pushing stupid garbage on their viewers for ratings. Sad info, but interesting to understand, about the 1/2 hour "shows" that get them their ratings. I agree that remote control was the beginning of the end. What a joke they are now. I saw something on a sitcom where a character said, "They should never gotten rid of Martha Quinn. She was a BABE!"

At the time, I think most of us felt the VJ's were pretty lame, but compared with what passes as talent on MTV these days, the original VJ's were brilliant!

I haven't purposely watched MTV in almost a decade, but I'm plenty familiar with their offerings in that time.

------------------
Neil

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

In MTV's defense... One of the best things they've ever contributed to pop culture was the "Unplugged" specials.

If you remember the state of the popular music scene when they first launched those specials, we were knee-deep in overproduced too-slick-sounding stuff (much like we are now?), and the Unplugged specials made the idea of live performance hip again, gave MTV a program (not a series of 4-minute videos) to sell to advertisers, it gave everybody involved a CD to sell, and the ground rules of the show put the focus on the music again.

Now, you could be picky and say that there's not much to be gained by hearing an acoustic version of grunge chords by certain acts, blah blah blah... But I'd still pick that over what MTV's programming seems to evolved into.

But that was like, 10 years ago... Do they still have new Unplugged specials or anything like it? (I haven't watched MTV for a couple years, so I don't know much about what they show now.)




This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-03-2001 at 11:46 PM

I agree with everything that has been said here....

But unfortunately, D.Gauss is exactly right!!!

I think the boy band thing is going to burn it self out real quick.This real TV thing,Like "Making the band" is revealing just how contrived this shit really is!I'm hoping that they mean to do it,but I think they're serious.Why don't they show a real struggling band trying to get a record deal?
I think it's because this is just another way to promote the release of the latest flavour of the month.I don't know,but I didn't run out and buy the latest Osmonds,or Partridge Family Records when I saw them on the tube!

P.S. I think the word "Osmonds" causes the spell checker to freek out.

Most of what is stated in the referred article is true, however the writer is ignorant of a few key facts. He lumps Public Enemy in the "gangsta rap" pile and refers to their music as being of the "dissing ho's" variety. It is pretty obvious then that the writer has never seen a Public Enemy video or heard any of their songs. Therefore some of his opinions become suspect.

I agree though that MTV has lost it's way. I remember when it came out that every said it would fail, that a network showing videos 24 hours a day couldn't last. Well, they were right!

One of the new shows on MTV that gets plusses from me is "Music In High Places". It shows acts going to exotic locales and exploring and performing. I stumbled on it by accident, and have never seen it promoted. I have seen parts of 3 different ones: Collective Soul in Morocco, Alanis Morrisette in the US Southwest and the Deftones in Hawaii by an active volcano. Also, MTV2 is bringing back "Unplugged".

As a little aside, I am mystified by what MTV feels fit to show. When they do show videos, they do remove references to drugs and suicide, as in videos by Buckcherry, Weezer and Papa Roach, but what amazed me was when I saw the new STP video for "Days of the Week" and they remove the word "shoot" from the line "Tuesday shoot me in the head". For crissakes he's speaking allegorically! Does anyone really think that he's talking about actually shooting himself? Meanwhile, has anyone listened to the words to "Smooth Criminal"? It's about a guy killing a woman in her apartment. I remember when Jacko came out with that song and everyone thought he had a screw loose making a pop song out of a story like that. But the Alien Ant Farm tongue-in-cheek remake is in heavy rotation. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the song and I think the video is hilarious, I just don't understand why Weiland can't say "Shoot me in the head" but someone can sing a song with a graphic description of a murder? I was expecting VH1 to bleep out the "Shot through the heart" line from "You Give Love a Bad Name" when they showed the Bon Jovi concert. Isn't that using almost the same allegory as in "Days of the Week"? Oh yeah, when Weezer performed "Hash Pipe" on the Movie awards, they didn't bleep out "hash"!?!?!

Sorry for the rant, I just can'y figure these things out...

Peace,

KJ

They are relaunching MTV Unplugged. Staind Shakira & REM coming soon...

MTV has not gone downhill ...pop music has not gone downhill. Standards of entertainment have not gone downhill.

If you are of the opinion that we are in an era today of brilliant creative artistic accomplishment by kids in the pop world (music, art, technology, media and fashion) then you are probably young (at least in heart)and excited about the current state of music and where it might next lead. You are probably actively involved somehow in the creative process and loving it. If you understand that MTV is a powerhouse even more so today than when it started in the 80's ..and that it's power is a reflection of ratings...and that ratings are a reflection of kids watching ..and kids watch because they like what they're watching...then you've got the big picture. MTV reflects the pop culture of the kids of the moment and this goes way beyond simple music videos.

On the other hand, if you can't fathom this "boy band" thing, then you've forgotten that the cycle of pop brings this type of outfit back about every twenty years...Letterman, Vogues, Jay & Americans (60's)....New Kids, New Edition etc (80's)...Nsync, Backstreet etc (2000) ...it's a healthy cycle and it's just part of the continual regeneration of pop. And if you are of the opinion that entertainment is "potty mouth" based (as Goldblatt put it), then you have forgotten Lenny Bruce and Pryor and all the others of whatever mythical old generation you're fondly remembering.

The entire argument of good/bad pop music and pop music phases is continuous. Your children will have this same conversation in twenty years. MTV has the pulse on what kids want. And the kids are the ones who fuel the music/entertainment industry as they always have and always will. And the entertainment/music industry has evolved way past Elvis, Beatles, the 70's, 80's, and 90's. As it should.

I suggest that if you agree with Goldblatt's article, then it isn't that MTV and music have changed or gone downhill...it's just that you all got old.

Reasonable...kinda logical....a good read, Dano. Still that first paragraph reads VERY MUCH like an MTV PR piece.

Almost plausible...except you seem 2 B addressing musical tastes and their evolution and/or recyclic nature, and it seems "the entertainment/music industry" you mention and the MTV programming Goldblatt and others here are talking about are not one and the same.

The cyclical nature of boy bands, girl bands, any other iconic entertainment for that matter notwithstanding, I saw nothing you said - except the opening unsupported assertion - address the issue of the MTV's potty-programming slide and dearth of "music".
Maybe you missed Goldblatt's factual: "More recently, and perhaps predictably, MTV has taken a turn toward sadomasochism. Not only with Dude, This Sucks, but with its inbred cousin, Jackass, which has featured folks being pepper-sprayed, lit on fire or doused with the contents of an outhouse -- that last moment serving as yet another metaphor for MTV's first 20 years." Would any of those be entertaining if they'd happened to you or your family or friends, Dano, for MTV's audience to laugh at? If it were yours or one of your children's faces that Show Ranger creep splattered his bowels on last January, would you still be singing their praises? Aren't some values in life worth more than whatever MTV hookup you seem to enjoy?

Will it still be defendable if 10 years from now it slides further into 'snuff flics' set to programmed music tracks. [remember those from the early 70's, where they actually murdered women on-camera after having sex with them?].

Could it be, Dano, that significant business ties to MTV created such a strong defense of it that side-stepped the core issue?



Gettin' old(er) hasn't made me unable to identify a good steak, a great painting (subjective, I know) and quality in thousands of other things. It's also made me more able to discern quality music of any style whether the artist is young or older. My opinion, but I'd guess that's true of all us "senior musical citizens".

This message has been edited by lovesinger on 08-04-2001 at 08:15 PM

This is exactly the sort of cultural fascism that Madison Avenue advertising executives for whom Viacom International is a client are counting on the perptuation of. Peer pressure, plain and simple. Buy or die.

MTV is the farthest thing from "cool" that there is in any kind of "youth culture" sense. It is a fat corporate institution, catering to the lowest common denominator in a (successful) pursuit of tha almighty dollar. MTV is McDonalds, Sprite, Nike, Bud Lite, Bud Dry, Bud Flaccid...MTV is it's advertisers. There is nothing adventurous or rebellious about MTV. The most frightening thing about it is that it's boring: a cash cow suckering only the most gullible and un-adventurous viewers into passive amusement. Have you seen it's demographics? There are just as many middle-aged family men who watch "Jackass" et al as there are teenagers - perhaps more so! I was not a teenager when I was tuning into "Amp" on Saturday nights before nightclubbing to catch the latest from Aphex Twin, Alex Reece, Future Sound Of London, Autechre, Towei Tei, Massive Attack, Morcheeba...I know 16 year olds who have not even heard of these bands. MTV whacked that program in favor of more "mainstream" fare such asNSync, Britney, censored Eminem and similar bubblegum that parents won't be threatened by. Rap was shut out of MTV for years before they grudgingly aquiesced to "Yo MTV Raps," and then proceeded to promote only the acts that were the most commercial, such as MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. MTV has ALWAYS sucked. If you like MTV, I think it's you who's gotten old.

E

If I watch video channels at all it is MTVx for me. All kinds of cool videos, reminds me of when mtv first started except theres newer music on it as well. And know that I think about it, not too much pop. Never any sight of Brittney or Christina or N-Sync.

KBP

Hey Neil

How about: A few moments of insanity surrounded by lucidity?

Peace.

I respect the passion and views of those who feel and state that society is heading down a road to degradation and oblivion ...but I don't agree with it. I respect that millions of people believe that pop art/music/entertainment are substantial instruments leading towards that degradation ...but I don't agree with it.

For me, history is the roadmap. Even all the way back to the sex, drug, alcohol, sexual beat music filled days of the roaring 20's, we have (as a group..as a species) survived and thrived with everything that art has thrown our way. It will be no different in the future.

I think MTV is on track. Much of what they invent eventually ends up on mainstream media. What they air goes way beyond just music videos ..which is where the sophistication level of kids is nowadays ...as it should be. Some people find the programming extreme and disgusting...some don't. The ratings show that the number of people who do watch and do like what they're watching, outnumbers the naysayers. In terms of just the MTV music, I like most of what I hear and I am excited over the direction we may be headed over the next three or four years with new artists who are just now coming in.

I wish! Not on THIS thread!

Remember, I've been involved in live sound for most of the past 7 years, and played guitar since the age of 8. (I'm 34.) Not much chance of continued lucidity at this point without a major paradigm shift!

I wrote out quite a response, then lost it by not entering my username! AAAUUUGGGGHHHH!

Not going to retype it, but the jist is this. Check out Caddyshack, Animal House, Monty Python's Meaning of Life, and other great movies and television shows that mix great writing and acting with really BASE humor. It can be done. Hell, even Beavis and Butthead had a vibe. The current crop of MTV shows do not.



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Neil

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

Well... yes, we're old, gentlemen.

I was yesterday watching an special segment with videos from 1981 to 1985. I was almost crying while singing those old songs... exciting !!

I was also laughing about what we all considered "sexy" or "agressive" or "out of any moral sense" back then... compared with what we see DAILY nowadays...

Also, I remember how shocked I was when I first saw the "Virtual Reality" graphics of DIRE STRAITS "Money for Nothing" (I saw the Video yesterday also) and less than 5 minutes later, I watched a promotional for that new film "FINAL FANTASY".., dang... technology... I am OLD !!! ( and I'm just 29...)

and then... they played Twisted Sisters "We're not gonna take it" ... they were soooo rude...

I had an amazing morning yesterday... I traveled to the past...

------------------
Gustavo G Lozada

Moderador de:
MusicPlayer.com/NuestroForo
"La voz en Español en Música y Tecnología"

GusTraX @yahoo.com

Actually, I think if one thinks MTV *is* cool then you're probably too old, or you're probably uncool to begin with.

Man, that's the most unwieldy but concise sentence I think I've ever constructed....


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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Which aspect of this statement is more absurd...?

"Much of what they invent"...they don't "invent," they convey what's given to them (bought) by the major labels.

"eventually ends up on mainstream media."...MTV IS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, STOOPID!!!

Bookumdano...you're like Alice...tumbling down the wormhole...up is down...black is white...day is night...wake up!!!

Actually there is a cure for all of this. It happens on Saturday night (if you're not playing) and broadcasts on PBS.....the show: Austin City Limits. It's the last of the really good music shows on TV. Though it's not as diverse as MTV, it does sport alot of diversity from time to time, even though it's aimed at it's regional or more eclectic acts. There are also a few independent music shows coming on that feature unsigned acts....we get it in Va Beach on public access. I'd rather watch a struggling but fresh new act anyday of the week than see another cookie from the Keebler factory. Good luck......

AMP is now on MTV2 on Friday nights, usually between 10 and midnight EST.

MTV DOES invent - they just don't invent music videos anymore. They develop programming (usually new shows targeted to their audience).

And what's with all the whining? Doesn't most TV suck? Are there any really, really good TV channels out there? In your ideal world, what would MTV be?

We can wax poetic all day long about how great MTV used to be, but I think we may be forgetting the ridiculous overplay of a lot of really bad videos. MTV has become much more than the original channel. It is now several music channels (MTV, VH1, MTV2, the Box, BET...) as well as a part of Paramount (who also owns CBS).

I'll say it again - if you miss the old MTV, get MTV2. It's the closest thing you'll find.

That's not silly at all. Music seemed to mean more then, because you had to wait for it. We weren't inundated with current pop/rock music at every turn, like we are now. Man, waiting all week to see the Doobies, or Edgar Winter, etc. on Don Kirshner was IT!!!

(If you're under 35, just disregard this post as the ramblings of an old fogie reminising!)

I'm with Curve, the times may have changed, but MTV hasn't in this respect...ie MTV has ALWAYS sucked!

MTV used to run a program in the mid 80's, at like 2 in the morning called "The Cutting Edge" that would showcase new bands -a great show! It seems they were more open to showing undiscovered talent back then. Now, it just plain sucks, and is doing nothing but following the "flavor of the week". Its just another money grubbing corportion. I think it was cool for about 5 minutes there, once upon a time.

-Hippie

Curve (and whoever else really cares)-

It appears that my definitions and position are somehow offensive to some folks. The terms I used-

"Mainstream media" ..my definition of mainstream in my post is network tv and print and other media that targets (and sometimes becomes popular with) a broad range of age groups across the population. I consider MTV to be of the niche category in programming (albeit a very big niche since it's geared to kids), not mainstream. Niche ie: programming specifically targeted at certain agegroups and niche interests. While MTV didn't originate the idea for programs such as The Real World, I believe Mtv's push for that type of programming eventually caught the collective eye of mainstream media ..and became popular with more of the masses through mainstream means. Will the same hold for Jackass? I don't know. A lot of stuff doesn't translate well in the mainstream. I don't think Tom Green's type of humor gets much interest from the mainstream, but his style is very big in niche markets.

"MTV invents"...ie: contracts out for or creates original programming that is not produced by or distributed from the likes of Paramount, Fox, WB, etc etc.

These are my definitions ..they certainly don't have to be yours. Plug in whatever alternate terms you need.


This message has been edited by BOOKUMDANO on 08-06-2001 at 01:54 PM

This message has been edited by BOOKUMDANO on 08-06-2001 at 01:56 PM

BOOKUMDANO,

Don't sweat it bro, it's no biggie.

Maybe I am getting old.

Shit, I won't complain if they play my damn video...

E

I'm glad to hear you have a life! Apparently you've had no time to watch network TV in the past 4+ years. Despite the inane popularity of "Millionaire", "The Weakest Link", and some pretty stupid reality shows, network TV is home to fantastic programming, these days. Comedy and drama are written and acted at an unprecedented level of quality, for the whole industry. The networks finally figured out that good shows are the only way to hold on to their piece of the pie.

We cancelled cable almost a year ago. Too much to watch on FREE tv! So someone else can enlighten you about the wonderful cable channels available.


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Neil

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.

"old fogie 2" chiming in ... after driving an airport passenger shuttle bus 18 hours from 6AM til 10pm, I'd excitedly stay up til 2am watching "Rock Concert"'s LaBelle (Patti, Nona & all), Harry Chapin, Jim Croche, ELO, et al, sing and play quality exciting live music. The Midnight Special was another such memorable showcase.

When I said "most TV" I meant the majority of the programming out there. I agree there are several shows that are really great (I watch ER, Ally McBeal, Boston Public, and even Survivor, so I'm no elitist...) on network television. But I think there's still way more crap out there than good stuff, and it doesn't really surprise me anymore. Thanks to cable, there are more channels to choose from, too (another double-edged sword).

At least with HBO, you get the Sopranos, Six Feet Under, and Oz. And fortunately for me, I also get Much Music and MTV2. I'll keep my cable.

Ok. Now you force me to point out as many good network shows I know of, even if they aren't my preferences. Then you be the judge if this doesn't represent MOST of network primetime. In no particular order:

[*]ER
[*]West Wing
[*]Law & Order
[*]Law & Order: Special Victims Unit (Sanctimonius at the start, but it has stepped into the big shoes of the original in the past season.)
[*]NYPD Blue
[*]Frasier
[*]Everybody Likes Raymond (Stupid title kept me away, but it's hilarious.)
[*]Friends
[*]King of Queens
[*]Yes Dear
[*]Dharma & Greg
[*]Drew Carey
[*]Who's Line Is It Anyway?
[*]The Practice

There are others I don't watch that should be inclueded here. I figured covering 2/3 of all the primetime hours, M-F with the ones I've listed, I made my point.

Now add the total fluff shows people have been enjoying in droves. Namely, Millionaire and Weakest Link, reality shows such as Survivor and Big Brother (which I discovered is fun to watch in the same way COPS! is; You get to see stupid people be.. well.. stupid! Add in some news magazines, which, admittadly are now evening soap operas, and you have no time for a real life. That's if you try watching all this, every week.

Now add the sub-networks and cable channels, and there are many great choices if you choose to watch TV.

MTV is still not one of them.



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Neil

Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.