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Re: What Do You Record With?
A String #1710874 03/02/07 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: A String
[/quote]

I used to have that problem all the time. Turned out it was the headphones. One of the first rules of mixing is, "never use headphones".

What you hear through the headphones is not what you are going to hear through regular speakers.

It's not that Craig... You guys taught me long ago not to mix through cans... I play my recording back through my studio monitors but when I "burn" it to a CD it looses the richness I heard while playing... That's why I've been dimeing out the bass and mid in the modeler and trying that... Not quite the same...
Does that make sense?
Thanks bud,
Woof

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Re: What Do You Record With?
Rampdog #1710882 03/02/07 08:38 PM
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OK..I'll just go ahead and ask it! IF your where me, and you wanted to get a good live representative recording of my band, what would you do? Even if I had to go rent the equipment. OR should I hire a recording mobile studio with engineer and pay what ever it costs?

Re: What Do You Record With?
Rampdog #1710890 03/02/07 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rampdog
Originally Posted By: A String


I used to have that problem all the time. Turned out it was the headphones. One of the first rules of mixing is, "never use headphones".

What you hear through the headphones is not what you are going to hear through regular speakers.

It's not that Craig... You guys taught me long ago not to mix through cans... I play my recording back through my studio monitors but when I "burn" it to a CD it looses the richness I heard while playing... That's why I've been dimeing out the bass and mid in the modeler and trying that... Not quite the same...
Does that make sense?
Thanks bud,
Woof


Take a close look at the recorder settings. Are you recording at 24 bit? CD is only 16 bit, so the conversion will affect the sound.

Last edited by Billster; 03/02/07 08:45 PM.
Re: What Do You Record With?
Billster #1710892 03/02/07 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Billster
Originally Posted By: Bill@Welcome Home Studios
I've gotten a lot of board tapes over the years, and few board ops can mix for tape, because they are influenced by the live sound in the room, and often because ther ears have already been blasted out and their minds have gone into the psycho-compression that they do for protection.

Bill


Like the board tape I got back from a gig labeled "Doug Hartzell" ? \:D



Well, Doug, how'd it sound? (g)

Bill


"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

Steve Martin

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Re: What Do You Record With?
Dr. Ellwood #1710893 03/02/07 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: ellwood
OK..I'll just go ahead and ask it! IF your where me, and you wanted to get a good live representative recording of my band, what would you do? Even if I had to go rent the equipment. OR should I hire a recording mobile studio with engineer and pay what ever it costs?


Do you have your own sound guy, or do you rely on the club?

Re: What Do You Record With?
Billster #1710895 03/02/07 08:48 PM
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We have our own sound guy.

Re: What Do You Record With?
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Originally Posted By: Bill@Welcome Home Studios
Originally Posted By: Billster
Originally Posted By: Bill@Welcome Home Studios
I've gotten a lot of board tapes over the years, and few board ops can mix for tape, because they are influenced by the live sound in the room, and often because ther ears have already been blasted out and their minds have gone into the psycho-compression that they do for protection.

Bill


Like the board tape I got back from a gig labeled "Doug Hartzell" ? \:D



Well, Doug, how'd it sound? (g)

Bill


Like this ;\)

Re: What Do You Record With?
fantasticsound #1710904 03/02/07 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: fantasticsound
But to the point of upgrading or replacing mic pre's you need to take a closer look at high quality, all in one units. Most of them have digital inputs, the better ones (albeit more expensive) have card slots and accessory cards for input/output choices from more analog inputs to specific digital I/O protocols. (ADAT Lightpipe, TDIF, SPDIF, etc.) They're far from the "island" you make them out to be.



That ignores the cheap components and crummy circuitry inside the units. Seriously, why do you think that major studios will track from a quality mic to a quality pre to a quality converter set to a storage medium. Because there is no value to it? I understand that you can make good recordings with stand alones. A good recordist can make a good recording with most anything, and a bad recordist can't make a record with a billion dollars worth of stuff.

I'm not trying to insult you, and I don't see the point to continuing if you really believe that the circuitry is not going to affect the sound. Stand alones are mostly designed with a 'shelf life'. They are convenient. They are handy. But they are never the best sonic solution out there. I'm open to recommendations, but in the typical Korg/Yamaha/etc etc device that fits the scope of this conversation isn't going to stand up to a sonic comparision to admittedly higher priced components.

I've mentioned some of my gear before. There are others who have far better and are far more picky than I. So I'm not trying to put anyone down for selecting a stand alone for their use. Neither will I recommend it, outside of certain parameters.

Bill


"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

Steve Martin

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

Re: What Do You Record With?
Dr. Ellwood #1710905 03/02/07 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: ellwood
We have our own sound guy.


Your own board?

If so, does it have enough output routing to give you adequate bus outputs for multitrack recording?

Re: What Do You Record With?
Durockrolly #1710915 03/02/07 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Durockrolly
Do any of you use these small inexpensive stand alone/portable digital recorders i.e. Micro Boss, or Zoom and others? I'm looking for something I can take with me when I leave the house. I would like to record complete songs with bass effects and built in drum machine. Perhaps you can describe your set up, estimate price and a link where I could here what you've done with it.


I take my laptop (Mac PowerBook G4) with me whenever I'm on the road, along with a MOTU Traveler (often supplemented with an Apogee AD8000 when I'm recording at Fantasy in Berkeley) & run Digtital Performer software. I don't use any of the budget recorders because I need a lot more power than those have & am working on CD projects aimed for label release. This set up may not fit your concept of small nor inexpensive but it is fully capable of producing seriously pro, releasable CD product.

Scott Fraser


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Re: What Do You Record With?
Billster #1710916 03/02/07 09:13 PM
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Well yes we own the board and PA, but the truth is ...I don't know? BUT I will find out tonight! what would adequate be Bill? The soundguy is not a recording engineer, he's a live sound/lighting kind of guy and general roust about equipment setup kind of guy.

Re: What Do You Record With?
Rampdog #1710918 03/02/07 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rampdog
Originally Posted By: A String


I used to have that problem all the time. Turned out it was the headphones. One of the first rules of mixing is, "never use headphones".

What you hear through the headphones is not what you are going to hear through regular speakers.

It's not that Craig... You guys taught me long ago not to mix through cans... I play my recording back through my studio monitors but when I "burn" it to a CD it looses the richness I heard while playing... That's why I've been dimeing out the bass and mid in the modeler and trying that... Not quite the same...
Does that make sense?
Thanks bud,
Woof[/quote]

The next thing to look at would be the recording quality vs. the mix down quality. Make sure you are using the same bit rate, sampling rate etc. between the original and the mixed down version.

Re: What Do You Record With?
Dr. Ellwood #1710927 03/02/07 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: ellwood
OK..there it is and thanks guys. I was trying to see how I could get a better recording of my band live..with ME trying to do it because evey recording I do of us sucks!! LOL, I guess it really doesn't matter as long as the band sounds excellent live.


Lee,

I don't now what you have or where you are playing, but let us for a minute examine a couple of reasonable solutions.

In all cases you'll need mic splits and you'll need to plan for some ambient mics. In some cases you'll need a way to get those splits converteed from mic level to line level.

First, there is often someone with a Radar unit handy. You can usually get him for about $250 a day. Radar is 24 channels in one box. he can record the gig for you, and fly the tracks down to wave or aiff for you to edit at home.

You could rent some other kind of multitrack box, same idea.

You could go big and get someone with a truck, but gee that is expensive, even for a small video production van outfitted with multitrack capabilities.

In any case, do it on a multigig date in one location. Two or three days at least. That way you set up, rehearse, tweek, have a gig, and without tearing down, you get a second chance the next night to get it right. That way any unexpected problems can be addressed. (Though I find that bands play better when they have a day off in between gigs.)

If you want to hash this out, give me some more details and I'll try to get you rolling with some ideas that fit your needs.

I should mention that a lot of guys are happy with the Behringer ADA8000, for about $250, as a front end for live recording rigs. So if you wanted to go with the software/PC idea, it could be done. 24 tracks should be easy.

Bill

Last edited by Bill@Welcome Home Studios; 03/02/07 09:18 PM.

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Re: What Do You Record With?
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Great Bill, and thanks...I will PM about this, we are always set up on the same stage every Fri and Sat nights, the stage situation is always the same, a very large room and large stage. Thanks for the offer and I will PM!!

Re: What Do You Record With?
Scott Fraser #1710936 03/02/07 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Durockrolly
Do any of you use these small inexpensive stand alone/portable digital recorders i.e. Micro Boss, or Zoom and others? I'm looking for something I can take with me when I leave the house. I would like to record complete songs with bass effects and built in drum machine. Perhaps you can describe your set up, estimate price and a link where I could here what you've done with it.


I take my laptop (Mac PowerBook G4) with me whenever I'm on the road, along with a MOTU Traveler (often supplemented with an Apogee AD8000 when I'm recording at Fantasy in Berkeley) & run Digtital Performer software. I don't use any of the budget recorders because I need a lot more power than those have & am working on CD projects aimed for label release. This set up may not fit your concept of small nor inexpensive but it is fully capable of producing seriously pro, releasable CD product.

Scott Fraser


I'm aware of that ;\)

Re: What Do You Record With?
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Short answer: mixing a PA and mixing a recording are two different activities. You can record a board tape, but most likely it's not going to sound good because you mix for the room sound, i.e. you're feeding the PA only what it needs to create a mix in the room.

Also, live stuff works better in mono/center for the most part - you're trying to cover the entire room as much as possible - whereas in a recording you'd normally do more panning across the 2d soundscape.

If you're doing a live recording, you have a few choices: best is to simply multitrack your inputs & mix it later. You don't have to send it to the PA to send it to tape.

If you want to go simpler, mic the room & record the show that way (assuming you have a decent PA & soundperson). A pair of condensers at FOH into a DAT/HD recorder/laptop will probably sound better than a straight board feed - however, if you got the channels there's no reason you can't tap both & work some studio magic later, if necessary!

Lastly, set up a separate recording mixer & mix it on the fly. I've done this a few times, and it can work - although it's not the easiest thing in the world to do, and is probably not optimum either unless you can mix out of the actual room where the show is going on. If you want to do this, get a second sound person - trying to do 2 mixes at once means than both of them are going to suffer at some point.

Last edited by Christopher Robin; 03/05/07 03:09 PM.
Re: What Do You Record With?
Chris Kemp #1712184 03/05/07 06:12 PM
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I've done some wonderful live mixes from aux sends, CR, but in order to do so the PA must be tuned to the room from the master eq, not from each channel's eq. I've seen such poorly tuned systems that mixers immediately dump all the bass on each channel rather than tune the system correctly. Of course their board mixes, whether from aux's or an alternate master output completely lack any bass.


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Re: What Do You Record With?
Billster #1712278 03/05/07 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Billster
Originally Posted By: Rampdog
Originally Posted By: A String


I used to have that problem all the time. Turned out it was the headphones. One of the first rules of mixing is, "never use headphones".

What you hear through the headphones is not what you are going to hear through regular speakers.

It's not that Craig... You guys taught me long ago not to mix through cans... I play my recording back through my studio monitors but when I "burn" it to a CD it looses the richness I heard while playing... That's why I've been dimeing out the bass and mid in the modeler and trying that... Not quite the same...
Does that make sense?
Thanks bud,
Woof


Take a close look at the recorder settings. Are you recording at 24 bit? CD is only 16 bit, so the conversion will affect the sound.

So...should I record at 16 bit? Or what do you suggest?
Thanks...
Woof

Re: What Do You Record With?
Rampdog #1712287 03/05/07 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rampdog
So...should I record at 16 bit? Or what do you suggest?
Thanks...
Woof


Weeeeeelllllll,

There's no good answer to that. It's a pretty technical issue. 24 bit will sound better, but it does need to be converted to 16 bit to put on a playable CD. Converting down from 24 to 16 can be a tricky process.
Here's a little guide to dithering (pdf format)

Quote:
As we use more bits per sample (e.g. 16 bits, 24 bits, 32 bits, 64 bits, etc.) we get better "vertical" resolution which translates to better "dynamic resolution" (i.e. more dynamic range and/or signal to noise ratio.) In the context of dithering, it is in the "bits per sample" that we're interested.
So, better dynamic resolution is pretty easy to get on your PC; just use more bits per sample. Get a 24-bit A/D converter; mix and edit at 32 bits; process effects at 64 bits. End of story. Except… audio CDs are 16-bit. At some point, if you want to put your songs on a CD, you have to get that 32-bit word length down to 16 bits. And that's the problem.


If that paragraph didn't make your eyes glaze over, record at 24 bits and dither when necessary to make CD's. Prepare to get friendly with your user manuals. \:D

If you don't want to deal with that stuff and you are just recording for personal use, record at 16 and you don't have to worry about that particular issue.

But the best sound is going to be 24 bit properly dithered down to 16 for final output.

Re: What Do You Record With?
fantasticsound #1712359 03/05/07 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: fantasticsound
I've done some wonderful live mixes from aux sends, CR, but in order to do so the PA must be tuned to the room from the master eq, not from each channel's eq. I've seen such poorly tuned systems that mixers immediately dump all the bass on each channel rather than tune the system correctly. Of course their board mixes, whether from aux's or an alternate master output completely lack any bass.


My experience echoes yours, Neil. It is SO HARD to get a great board tape, and the guys who mix great board tapes are very, very rare. It is also rare to find a band with a properly tuned PA, or a small club with a properly tuned system. I can't tell you how many times (in the past, when I worked for CB,I) I got called to clubs to retune their system, and by the next weekend it had been totally hosed again by visiting engineers.

So what do you need to be able to take a board aux effectively? Preferably, a pre-eq aux, which is available on some but not all consoles.

Bill


Last edited by Bill@Welcome Home Studios; 03/05/07 11:54 PM.

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Re: What Do You Record With?
Rampdog #1712366 03/06/07 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rampdog
...So...should I record at 16 bit? Or what do you suggest?
Thanks...
Woof


Given the option, I would record at 24 bit, but I've been doing so for many years.

Some people prefer to record at 16 bit. I can only tell you that the difference once you start to edit is most audible... far more audible that any difference between 44.1 or 48 and 96 or 88.2, for example.

You should understand that we are just making more slices out of the same pizza, the pizza doesn't get bigger when we chop it up more. Full scale at 16 bits and full scale at 24 bits is the same thing. What you are gaining is resolution.


Bill


"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

Steve Martin

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

Re: What Do You Record With?
Billster #1712400 03/06/07 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: Billster
Originally Posted By: Rampdog
So...should I record at 16 bit? Or what do you suggest?
Thanks...
Woof


Weeeeeelllllll,

There's no good answer to that. It's a pretty technical issue. 24 bit will sound better, but it does need to be converted to 16 bit to put on a playable CD. Converting down from 24 to 16 can be a tricky process.
Here's a little guide to dithering (pdf format)

Quote:
As we use more bits per sample (e.g. 16 bits, 24 bits, 32 bits, 64 bits, etc.) we get better "vertical" resolution which translates to better "dynamic resolution" (i.e. more dynamic range and/or signal to noise ratio.) In the context of dithering, it is in the "bits per sample" that we're interested.
So, better dynamic resolution is pretty easy to get on your PC; just use more bits per sample. Get a 24-bit A/D converter; mix and edit at 32 bits; process effects at 64 bits. End of story. Except… audio CDs are 16-bit. At some point, if you want to put your songs on a CD, you have to get that 32-bit word length down to 16 bits. And that's the problem.


If that paragraph didn't make your eyes glaze over, record at 24 bits and dither when necessary to make CD's. Prepare to get friendly with your user manuals. \:D

If you don't want to deal with that stuff and you are just recording for personal use, record at 16 and you don't have to worry about that particular issue.

But the best sound is going to be 24 bit properly dithered down to 16 for final output.


Thanks Bill...Yes, my eyes are glazed... I'll try a couple things but that means more RTFM (read the fu*kin manual) Damn I hate that... I end up reading for two or three hours thinking about playing instead... Oh well. If I want to learn then I've gotta do it...
Thanks again.
Woof

Re: What Do You Record With?
Rampdog #1712589 03/06/07 07:53 AM
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I want to record live. I have a yamaha AW-16G. It can record 8 tracks at a time. Our band is a 5 piece. Trap, Percussion, 2 Guitars, Bass, 4 Vocals. The trap is a 5 piece and our percussion guy has about 20 different things. Conga's, Bongo's, Shakers, ect.
Our Live Board is a Mackie 1604. 12 mic/line, 2 stereo, 4 Bus.
I mic it like this.
1. Bass Drum
2. Snare Drum
3. Over head (condensor)
4. Over head percussion (condensor)
5. Guitar 1
6. Guitar 2
7. Bass Guitar
8-11. vocals
I usually run 1-4 the drums to bus 1-2
and every thing else to bus 3-4.

I need all of this to the board.
also there is 11 mic's and only 8 tracks to record on.
how do I record this so I can mix it later.

we do have a cd burner that can record live off the boards stereo channel. but this rarely turns out anything we can use.
I'd say only about 5%-10%.

any way any suggestions


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Re: What Do You Record With?
bennyguitfiddle #1712632 03/06/07 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: the plan
... It can record 8 tracks at a time. ...there is 11 mic's and only 8 tracks to record on.
how do I record this so I can mix it later.



Given your micing setup and the need to dump to 8 tracks, I'd probably fold the percussion down into one of the drum tracks, and it is a toss up if I would send it into the drum OH or the snare channel... both have ups and downs. I would have to have seen you guys to know what would work best. That would give me a spare track for lead vocal. Then I would be switching vocal assignments per song, so that the lead vocal stayed on its own track, no matter who was singing lead, and the background vocals were mixed together on their own track.

Knowing your show might make some other options available.

I believe that the Mackie offers direct outs, so a combo of direct outs and group outs should work to make the routing pretty simple.

Have you considered renting another multitracker? Running 16 gives you a lot more flexibility and the ability to add another percussion mic and some live room mics. Live recordings really sound wierd when the only crowd noise slips in through the stage mics.

Another option would be to mix all the drums together as a stereo track or even a mono track, freeing up more tracks; and possibly even micing the bass in there, too. This might take a couple of gigs to get the right blend, but once you have got it, it would be the same or similar every night. The goal would be to open up more channels for vocals and again to try to get at least one channel for crowd noise. By the way, if you scatter several mics around the crowd and mix them all together into one track, it will sound a lot more natural than just one mic.

Bill


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Steve Martin

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Re: What Do You Record With?
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Thanks Bill. We have a couple shows comming up next weekend and we're gonna try some stuff. thanks for the advise. never even thought of the crowd noise. I'll let you know how it turns out and pry ask for more advise.


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Re: What Do You Record With?
bennyguitfiddle #1713104 03/07/07 12:36 AM
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I'm not sure how the two are connected, but my friend with a recording studio goes from the board to his mac and uses Logic. Logic Express would work for smaller jobs. I'm sure the new mac book pros would keep up with a large external firewire HD.


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Re: What Do You Record With?
fantasticsound #1713171 03/07/07 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: fantasticsound
I've seen such poorly tuned systems that mixers immediately dump all the bass on each channel rather than tune the system correctly.


Yow, that's lame. My approach is such that if I have to touch the channel EQ, I haven't tuned the system properly. A lot of set up time goes into getting the PA balanced, focussed & tuned, which makes the sound check & gig go a whole lot more smoothly. And allows me to leave the EQ switched out on the Neumanns. Then again, these are performing arts centers, not clubs. Still, house mixers should do their job.

Scott Fraser


Scott Fraser
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