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#1673936 - 12/19/04 09:55 PM your fav Hat and Ride micro
Eric Beam Offline
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Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Santa Monica
i'm looking for 2 hypercardioid mics for hats ans rides... i have 2 ADK-2 SC-T'S but they are OMNI. they are great mics but work better for other things.. i was thinking rode nt5's but i dont like the high end dip... what do you guys like..
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#1673937 - 12/19/04 10:26 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Lee Flier Offline
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Posts: 15398
Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
I don't like anything. \:D Any time I've ever miked the hat or ride I end up not using that track - the overheads pick up the hat and ride just fine and the cymbals tend to overpower the drums if any more mics are added. So I finally just quit miking them altogether.
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#1673938 - 12/19/04 11:03 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
TER Offline
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Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 75
Loc: Newburyport, MA
I've been really fond of the Earthwoks SR71on hat...except if tends to pick up static from snares played with brushes. Sounds great otherwise. I love the AT4051 on ride as a spot mic...never used unless the ride doesn't sing enough through the overheads. Some folks are great at balancing the sound of their kit for the overheads (so all cymbals are even), some folks aren't. Spot mics can save the part if the ride is much softer than a crash on the same side.

-tom
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#1673939 - 12/19/04 11:23 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
witesol Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 149
Loc: SoCal
Never mic'd a ride but I've used a few things on hat. 4041s, Beyer MCE 83, Octava, Pro37r, AE5100..all work just fine. I roll off everything below about 300hz and point the mic away from the kit if possible. Seems the preamp and headroom are important in the hat sound. Something smooth and not hyped.
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#1673940 - 12/20/04 01:13 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
where02190 Offline
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Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
In the studio, I never use them. I cature everything using usually a SHure VP-88 as a steroe overhead and a Rode NTK or AKG C4000B's as room mics.

Live, I'm fond of AT 4041's or 414's for hat, and a 57 for a ride. I find the 57 give me the 800-2k cut I need on a ride without the harshness that SD condensors can have upclose. Typcially I mic the rid eand hat from the underside to give me as much isolation as possible. I'm also a big fan of underheads for cymbals for the same isolation reasions. Unlike the studio, where the overheads act as the basis for the kit(alogn with the room mics) live all I want in the cymbal mics is cymbals.
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#1673941 - 12/20/04 03:50 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Matt.Hepworth Offline
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 2982
Loc: Riverdale, UT
I'm very much against hi-hat and ride mics as well - especially the hi-hat mic. Any small diaphragm condenser should work fine. The AT40401 and AKG451's, may be worth the listen if you want something in the $300 range. If you want cheaper you could look at the M-Audio Pulsar or Shure KSM109 - both reasonable mics.
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#1673942 - 12/20/04 05:10 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Eric Beam Offline
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Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Santa Monica
all you close mic haters, damn you all to the Fiery pits of bonham sloosh \:\) i'm just messing with ya, i appreciate that sound. i use it when called for as well... but i also always close mic. i prefer the sound, clarity, and options.. thanks for the replys
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#1673943 - 12/20/04 07:36 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
sign Offline
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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 2216
Loc: NETHERLANDS
A dynamic mic close to the ride and/or hat can often sound nicer than a condenser.

A ribbon can even be nicer, but a MD441 is good enough.
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#1673944 - 12/20/04 08:49 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Muddy Run Offline
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Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 343
Loc: USA
Neumann kms-85 is the hi-hat standard around these parts....I've never solo mic'd a ride cymbal in my life...
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#1673945 - 12/20/04 02:37 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
witesol Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 149
Loc: SoCal
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt.Hepworth:
I'm very much against hi-hat and ride mics as well - especially the hi-hat mic. Any small diaphragm condenser should work fine. The AT40401 and AKG451's, may be worth the listen if you want something in the $300 range. If you want cheaper you could look at the M-Audio Pulsar or Shure KSM109 - both reasonable mics.
I just call a ride mic an overhead.. But I disagree about the hi hat. I've probably mic'd 'em up on about a third of the sessions I've done. Sometimes I use the track. Depends on the drummer/room/song/arrangement and how the overhead(s) are utilized to capture the whole kit. Often I'm doing a mono overhead so the hat mic is another way to pan a sound source for some stereo spread options. I'd say 3/4 of my favorite drum sounds on records that I love have hat mics...done well.
The 4041's I have probably get used most of the time, although they have an ever-so slight trashy quality on the 6-9k side, regardless of the preamp. The bargain version:Pro37R. A regular ol' sm81 works pretty well.
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#1673946 - 12/20/04 02:56 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
where02190 Offline
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Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by witesol:
[QUOTE]The 4041's I have probably get used most of the time, although they have an ever-so slight trashy quality on the 6-9k side, regardless of the preamp.
You should have it checked by AT, none of our 3-4041's have any trashy sound at all. They are very smooth and eztremely flat response mics.
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#1673947 - 12/20/04 03:56 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Eric Beam Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Santa Monica
anyone try the audix SCX-one? i'm liking the looks of the SCX-HC

http://www.audixusa.com/Acrobat/SCX1_spec_sheet.pdf
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#1673948 - 12/20/04 04:10 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Eric Beam Offline
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Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Santa Monica
the Akg C 451 B might be more for the money
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#1673949 - 12/20/04 06:22 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Eric Beam Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Santa Monica
ok the marshall MXL 603S spec wise seemd good.. how do they sound? for $100 something seems wrong..
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#1673950 - 12/20/04 08:11 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
witesol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 149
Loc: SoCal
Quote:
Originally posted by where02190:
Quote:
Originally posted by witesol:
[QUOTE]The 4041's I have probably get used most of the time, although they have an ever-so slight trashy quality on the 6-9k side, regardless of the preamp.
You should have it checked by AT, none of our 3-4041's have any trashy sound at all. They are very smooth and eztremely flat response mics.
There was nothing wrong with the mics. I was exaggerating a bit about trashy, it's more like gritty. They do smear the highs more than I'd like since I've heard and owned other things. I've had years of good experiences with them and I'm very familiar with how they sound. I did about 13 full CDs and maybe over 100 demos with them so I more than got my money's worth! Although I wouldn't call them flat by any means, they are reasonably accurate. They're great for a $300 mic for sure. The poor man's KM184. I sold the 3 that I owned...probably should have kept them for utility or live, they're really useful. Never sell a good mic they say..
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#1673951 - 12/20/04 08:30 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
where02190 Offline
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Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
They are very flat, check their specs, one of the flattest SDC around. If yours are sounding trashy you may need new elements, or may have a problem in the mic electronics.. Every bit a sgood as the KM184 IMHO.
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#1673952 - 12/20/04 08:44 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
witesol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 149
Loc: SoCal
Quote:
Originally posted by where02190:
They are very flat, check their specs, one of the flattest SDC around. If yours are sounding trashy you may need new elements, or may have a problem in the mic electronics.. Every bit a sgood as the KM184 IMHO.
Thanks for the concern. Like I stated above, I sold mine. They're fine mics for the money. Again, I'm very familiar with how they sound. There was nothing wrong with my mics. I'm not insulting them. I love AT stuff. It's always a good value. I just got tired of the slight graininess/smeared quality in the high end and was looking for something more. I'm just talking about a very fine detail/impression, something that doesn't show up on a graph/chart. Plots of a mic's response don't show if a frequency band is transparent or "pleasant" sounding to one's ear. Intermodulation distortion and odd/even overtones doesnt show on a graph too. I'm sure you'll be happy for years with your 4041s, I was.
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#1673953 - 12/21/04 12:18 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
DC Offline
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Registered: 01/17/01
Posts: 2706
Loc: here to eternity...
SM-81's are great on hi hat. I've never miced ride seperately but if I did I'd probably go for a 414B-ULS.
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#1673954 - 12/21/04 08:32 AM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
where02190 Offline
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Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
Kel, another issue that could have bene the problem is the 4041 is a very, veyr hot output mic, and while the meters on your pres may not have been in overload, the fast transient response of the 4041 may ahve been slightly overdriving the input stage of the mic pres. This is a common problem with the 4041, it's too damn hot for some sources and many preamps. The result would be a harsheness in the upper mids that is not characteristic to the mic, but a artifact of the high level but very fast transient distortion of the input stage of the mic pre.
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#1673955 - 12/21/04 12:41 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
KenElevenShadows Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11836
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by witesol:
Quote:
Originally posted by where02190:
Quote:
Originally posted by witesol:
[QUOTE]The 4041's I have probably get used most of the time, although they have an ever-so slight trashy quality on the 6-9k side, regardless of the preamp.
You should have it checked by AT, none of our 3-4041's have any trashy sound at all. They are very smooth and eztremely flat response mics.
There was nothing wrong with the mics. I was exaggerating a bit about trashy, it's more like gritty. They do smear the highs more than I'd like since I've heard and owned other things. I've had years of good experiences with them and I'm very familiar with how they sound. I did about 13 full CDs and maybe over 100 demos with them so I more than got my money's worth! Although I wouldn't call them flat by any means, they are reasonably accurate. They're great for a $300 mic for sure. The poor man's KM184. I sold the 3 that I owned...probably should have kept them for utility or live, they're really useful. Never sell a good mic they say..
I have an AT4060 and two AT4051s, and they have never sounded trashy, either before or after they were modified. There's no grit on these mics, and I would be surprised if the AT4041s were any different!

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#1673956 - 12/21/04 12:43 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
KenElevenShadows Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11836
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
I've never miced the ride, and don't usually mic the high-hat when recording in my studio. It's not that I'm opposed to it, but that it seems unnecessary when the overheads pick both up so well.

When I do mic the high-hat, I usually use one of the AT4051s, although I'll grab just about anything since even if I do mic the high-hat, it's usually ridden really low in the mix and it kinda doesn't matter what I use. I've used a 421 before and it sounded fine.

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#1673957 - 12/21/04 01:45 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
sonusman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland,OR,UNITED STATES
I seldom, if ever mic a hi hat or ride cymbal. But when I have, I have two gems that are totally unexpected!

For hi hat, I have a mint condition Tascam PE-125 mic with the hypercardiod capsule, that just seems to capture a very smooth, round, "pretty" hi hat sound!

For ride cymbal, for some reason, the AKG C-1000S just seems to catch what it is all about! Again, a very "pretty" sound with a lot of presence.

What is great about these two mics is that they seem to stay out of the way of the overheads sonically speaking. The AKG does have more bleed, but when placed carefully, it isn't so bad, and a little of that mic goes a long ways in the mix! The PE-125 is directional enough to where the only concern is the snare, and who can have enough of that? ;\)

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#1673958 - 12/21/04 02:55 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
witesol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 149
Loc: SoCal
Quote:
Originally posted by It's Ken Upon a Midnight Clear:
I have an AT4060 and two AT4051s, and they have never sounded trashy, either before or after they were modified. There's no grit on these mics, and I would be surprised if the AT4041s were any different![/QB][/QUOTE]
No doubt, different mics altogether. Nice stuff by the way. Enjoy!
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#1673959 - 12/21/04 03:04 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Lee Flier Offline
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Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 15398
Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
Kel, it's quite possible that the smear in the high end is related to room acoustics more so than the mics. I know that before I treated my room, that freq range was a problem for me when recording drums in my home studio. Since treating the room you would swear I bought a whole new lockerful of mics, but I didn't.
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#1673960 - 12/21/04 04:02 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
witesol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 149
Loc: SoCal
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
Kel, it's quite possible that the smear in the high end is related to room acoustics more so than the mics. I know that before I treated my room, that freq range was a problem for me when recording drums in my home studio. Since treating the room you would swear I bought a whole new lockerful of mics, but I didn't.
I hear ya. Great advice, all advice here for that matter. I tell people about acoustics almost everytime. There's a studio in town that keeps dumping money into their vocal mics and preamps...and their vocal booth has the classic carpeted box sound...
I loved my AT 4041s. I also had a pair of 4031s too, it's predecessor. another nice mic for the money. then 4051s, and the rest of the 40 series. I probably used the 4041s on at least 13 full albums, 50 live shows and another 100 demos. Dozens of different environments. Overheads, choir, A-guitar, piano...On maybe 7 different preamps and at a few different studios. I have a pretty good idea how they sound; great. I surely got my money's worth! I get defensive too when someone says what I'm using is, or isn't whatever. But sometimes someone's inch is another person's mile...
I think we've hijacked this hihat mic thread enough! Sorry.
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#1673961 - 12/21/04 05:15 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Philip O'Keefe Offline
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
I'm usually one of those "capture the hats and ride in the overheads" type of people. I'll frequently go for overheads and room mics before I spot mic the ride and hat. The vast majority of the time, I find I get enough of what I'm after from the overheads and don't need the hat mic. OTOH, it doesn't hurt much to track it anyway... it's probably better to have it and not need it than to not have it and wish that you did. \:\)

Certainly the drummer has a huge influence on what the kit is going to sound like, and if they're good, and they're playing the right gear, your job is going to be a lot easier than if they're not. But in a good room, on a good kit, a good drummer will usually balance the dynamics of the individual kit elements out naturally, allowing you to capture the bulk of the drum sound with your overhead mics and then "fill it out" with the close / spot mics.

If you do feel the need for a spot mic on the hats (and / or ride), then that really comes down to the cymbals themselves and the sound you're after. Of course, changing out the cymbals first is the best idea, but your mic selection can either accentuate or somewhat diminish certain desireable / undesireable characteristics of the cymbals. For example, if you have a pair of fairly dark and "clunky" sounding hats, and you're going for that thin "tissey" hat sound, you're better off going for different hats first, but if that's not an option, you might want to try a fairly bright mic. That same bright mic would probably NOT be the mic of choice on a bright sounding set of hats... it might just be "too much" - especially if you're going for a darker, beefier, clunkier hat sound.

IOW, that's my long winded way of saying that the hat mic will vary, depending on the hats and drummer, and the sound we're looking for. \:\)

Some mics I've used on hats at one time or the other, with varying degrees of success include the AKG C-451 EB (I still have not tried the new B's), C-535, C-414 EB, Shure SM81, Neumann KM84, Oktava MC012 with hypercardioid capsule, SE Electronics SE2-A, Beyer M160... I've even used dynamics such as the SM57, Sennheiser MD441 and Audix i-5, and was surprised with how they did on more than one occasion.

As far as what I'd use on YOUR kit, it would depend on what it sounds like. \:\) But before you reach for a hat or ride cymbal spot mic, try having a chat with your drummer. On one hand, you don't want to mess with their comfort level the day of a session by making them concentrate on changing their technique too much, but OTOH, if they're going to be doing a lot of recording, a little awareness on their part insofar as what they're hitting too hard vs what they're not can make for better recordings.
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#1673962 - 12/21/04 05:54 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Matt.Hepworth Offline
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 2982
Loc: Riverdale, UT
With all this AT4041 talk we must remember that one person's "warmth" is another's "mud".
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#1673963 - 12/22/04 02:17 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Eric Beam Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Santa Monica
well i think i might go with the rode NT3.. reviews seem good. other drummers have recomended them for hat, ride, and snare work... at $150 i'm happy.. i'll pick up 2 maybe 3.
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#1673964 - 12/22/04 03:21 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
sign Offline
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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 2216
Loc: NETHERLANDS
Quote:
Originally posted by RhythmInMind:
well i think i might go with the rode NT3.. reviews seem good. other drummers have recomended them for hat, ride, and snare work... at $150 i'm happy.. i'll pick up 2 maybe 3.
The NT3 is a very bright mic, nice, hypercardioid, but v e r y bright.

Besides that, a ribbon like the Beyer M160/260 sounds so very smooth on hats and ride.

And you just can't overload a ribbon in the highs, a condenser close to the (loud) hat can be overloaded and that sounds really nasty.

Ribbon brother, ask Lee. \:D
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#1673965 - 12/22/04 03:31 PM Re: your fav Hat and Ride micro
Lee Flier Offline
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Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 15398
Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
Yeah, I totally agree with sign. \:\) Ribbon mics are the thing if you must get very close to cymbals. And the NT3 is wayyyy too bright for that purpose, just the thought of it sets my teeth on edge.
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