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#1658050 - 06/04/06 03:31 PM How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
Ethan what would you recommend for treating an 11 x 11 studio with 8 ft ceilings?
I will mostly be recording acoustic guitar and vocals in this room.
I am building the mineral wool bass traps 4" thick later in the week and I'm making enough for all of the verticla corners and one 4' long to put horizontally in each lateral corner.
I also bought a few extra 2" thick panels for mid/high absorbers.
I will either apply foil facing to each bass trap or put 2" strips of foil tape 2" apart of the front of each trap to reflect some of the mids and highs.
Considering that I will be recording acoustic guitar in this 11x11 room how would you recommend I place the panels and should I definetly put foil on all the traps using FSK or will the 2" strips of foil tape on all the traps be enough? With the tape I will be basically be getting reflection from half the total surface area of each trap.
Thanks for your input. I will be getting my supplies tomorrow so I'd really appreciate any input asap.

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#1658051 - 06/05/06 10:01 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8341
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
Didn't I answer this somewhere else? \:D

An 11 by 11 room needs as much bass trapping as possible. So fill those corners! And have the foil facing the room. The non-corner panels shouldn't have foil. I'm not there so I can't tell you precisely where to put everything. For recording in a small room, where all the walls are close by, you probably want to cover 50 percent of the walls.

--Ethan

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#1658052 - 06/06/06 10:48 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
Thanks for the input!!

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#1658053 - 06/07/06 11:59 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
Ethan, If treated properly can I get a good recording environment for acoustic guitars in a room this size?
So basically I should just use foil on all bass traps in verticle corners(where two walls meet) and horizontal corners (where ceiling and walls meet)
I would use no foil on the mid/high absorbers on parallel walls.
Is this right? I just want to make sure I'm understanding your recommendations.
I am really hoping that I will be able to get good acoustic guitar recordings in this 11x11 room. Thanks again for your input!

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#1658054 - 06/07/06 01:04 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
Ethan Winer Moderator Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 8341
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
> Is this right? <

Right.

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#1658055 - 06/07/06 01:29 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
David French Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 88
12 4" thick panels in a room that size will solve the low end for the purposes of acoustic guitar and vocal recording. You could go with as few as nine, but I wouldn't go any lower. You will need about ten more to control high end reflections, two on each wall and two on the ceiling. Abandon all hope of having any useful ambience in the room. Your goal will be to make a non-room. You will need to add any desired abmience artificially.

While it may be pretty, it's a mistake to concentrate the panels in the vertical corners; when you do that, you overtreat ther resonances in the lenght and width dimensions. Treatment should be evenly distributed among all the resonance subsets, namely the lenght-width, lenght-height, and width-height. Here is a plan for your room that shows 12 panels for low end absorption placed in an optimal configuration.

_________________________
David M. French

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#1658056 - 06/07/06 04:56 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
While I agree that you want to deal with all the dimensions, you can do the same thing by having the 4 vertical corners floor to ceiling and 1 panel at each wall/ceiling intersection - at the center of the wall.

In most rooms, the length dimension has the deepest issues and the width ends up being the one where you sit in the problem spaces. The height is usually the least of the offenders.

Matters not from a cost standpoint - same number of panels.

Now as far as ambience goes, you can still maintain some IMO. Just make sure you face all of the bass absorbers so that the other panels are the only ones doing any significant Mid/HF absorbtion.

If you want to use the room for tracking and mixing, consider the wall panels for Mid/HF control to be movable gobos that are hard on one side and soft on the other. That way, you can maintain some ambience while reducing slap with the hard sides out, make a 'booth' with them when needed, and use them soft side out when you want to mix.

When you have a small room like that, you need to be creative and every treatment needs to potentially do double duty. You need the ultimate in flexibility.

Bryan
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#1658057 - 06/07/06 06:03 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
David French Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 88
For a mix room I agree totally (except for (0,0,2) which can be a persistent little guy), but for a tracking room, all bets are off since mics and sound sources vary in their placements. For that reason I like to recommend treating all modes equally in small tracking rooms like this. Also, I was under the impression that 3Dfan's room was for tracking only.

Good to meet you, Bryan. I look forward to more discussions in the future! \:\)
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David M. French

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#1658058 - 06/07/06 08:08 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
Hi David.

Not disagreeing with you at all. I agree that treating all the dimensions pretty much equally is important. If you did the panels as I described and had the mics anywhere in the middle 1/3 of the room, you'd have a wall/ceiling panel straddling to deal with the 0,0,2 directly in front, back, and both sides of you. You'll also still have all 8 tri-corners covered.

As for tracking only, I was speaking more generally. With your recommendation for 24 panels in an 11x11x8 room, I made the assumption that you were speaking more generally as that's awfully dead for a pure tracking room - small or not.

As you know, there are many ways to skin a cat. To each their own.

Bryan
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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#1658059 - 06/07/06 11:11 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
I just want to get a nice sounding room for acoustic guitar and vocals. I don't want to over treat it either. I did that with the FBM and my acoustic guitar tracks sounded terrible. All the high end harmonics were absorbed and I had a serious low end problem that I could never seem to EQ out. I'm hoping with the reflection on the face of the bass traps I will have a nicely balanced room for recording my acoustic guitars.
I will be mixing and mastering in my home office where I have Whardedale monitors. I may make a couple of moveable absorbers to take down to my home office when I mix.
Again, I greatly appreciate all of your knowledge and helpfulness and how willing you are to share!!

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#1658060 - 06/07/06 11:26 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
If I glue the plastic (painters dropcloth) to the mineral wool and then put 2" strips of foil tape down the front of the panels with this increase bass absorption and mid/high reflection?

Should I not use the foil tape on the plastic glued to the mineral wool?

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#1658061 - 06/07/06 11:31 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
I forgot to mention, I also found some DIY bass trap plans where they recommend just using duct tape to tape the panels of 2" rockwool together.
Would this cause any problems as far as the duct tape reflecting too much or reducing the low absorption? I was thinking of using that new Gorilla tape because it is even stronger than duct tape.

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#1658062 - 06/08/06 06:19 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
Personally, I like them framed - from a durability standpoint and a HANGability standpoint.

Use some spray adhesive to bond them together and also to bond the plastic membrane. Use something relatively stout for the membrane - not just something like thin Saran-Wrap. Kraft Paper is another option that when bonded, will act more similarly to an FSK facing.

For framing, just try some metal drywall corner bead. You can make a complete frame, leave the sides and back open, and it's pretty easy to do - just need to be able to rivet it together. You get nice clean edges, it's sturdy but light, and you can easily screw into the back of the framing for hanging wires, etc.

Bryan
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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#1658063 - 06/08/06 08:30 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
Lionard Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 62
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
> 12 4" thick panels in a room that size will solve the low end for the purposes of acoustic guitar and vocal recording...You will need about ten more to control high end reflections, two on each wall and two on the ceiling... David M. French <

If the 12 4" panels are broadband absorbers, do you still think will need 10 more for high end reflections?
_________________________
"The best equipment will never perform beyond the acoustical limitations of the room itself."
Mason Wyatt

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#1658064 - 06/08/06 10:24 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
Is the foil tap attached to the plastic which is glued to the panel a good idea? Will it help with reflections and bass absorption or will it be too much?

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#1658065 - 06/08/06 11:08 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
Hard to say. I have no idea how it will react. That's part of the problem. Kraft paper is a known somewhat. Real FSK facing is another known when bonded.

While I'm sure it will reflect some of the mids and highs, I have no idea how much or at what frequencies - nor what if any membrane effect it will introduce in terms of where the peak in bass absorbtion would be.

Wish I could give you a better answer.

Bryan
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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#1658066 - 06/09/06 06:28 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
Lionardk,

I personally don't. David is basically recommending to kill all the ambience and then reintroduce it electronically. That's one way to do it. I prefer to try to leave some of the natural room ambience in tact if it can be done while still controlling the other small room issues.

Bryan
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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#1658067 - 06/09/06 10:18 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
David French Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 88
Yes, Bryan. Thanks.
_________________________
David M. French

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#1658068 - 06/09/06 11:29 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
I don't want to kill all ambience and make the room dead. I've found that you can not do that and then just add reverb later when it comes to acoustic guitars. I want a nice balanced sound despite being in a small room. I guess I want to trap the excessive bass and balance the highs and mids.

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#1658069 - 06/10/06 10:38 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
Will it be ok to use the foil tape bonded to the plastic painters dropcloth which will be bonded to the mineral wool panel??
If this would decrease bass absorption then I won't do it.
Is the plastic dropcloth a good enough plastic to glue to the panel??
I am thinking I will try using Gorilla tape to hold the panels together because of simplicity and because the tape is REALLY strong. Should I glue the plastic dropcloth to the rockwool panels before taping the panels so the tape is on the outside of the plastic dropcloth?
I'll also take your advice and use the spray glue to glue the panels together also even though I'm also taping them together.

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#1658070 - 06/11/06 08:50 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
As I said previously, the problem with doing the tape and plastic is that you'll have absolutely no idea how it will react. It shouldn't change the bass absorbtion but you have no idea what it will do in the upper bass through the highs - precisely where your guitar has most of it's range.

Using a heavy kraft paper or real FRK/FSK scrim bonded with spray adhesive is a known quantity. It will peform similarly to a factory bonded FRK. It will give somewhat of a membrane effect that will provide a hump in absorbtion at around 100Hz. It will also effectively cut the mid/high absorbtion to about 50% of what it is unfaced.

Try it if you want but we'll have no way to know what it's doing.

Bryan
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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#1658071 - 06/12/06 10:53 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
Here's another question you guys may have some advice on:
In this 11x11 room once I get it treated properly with the bass traps, where in the room would you recommend I sit to play the acoustic guitar to get the best recorded sound?
I normally sit with my back to one corner about 2 feet from that corner so the sound of the guitar can have a little room before reflecting. I also use omni mics pretty close to the guitar. I use the omni's because I can put them close to the guitar without getting proximity effect and also when they are close to the guitar it still limits the room sound somewhat even though they are omni mics.
Any input??

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#1658072 - 06/13/06 12:35 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
David French Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 88
Just don't sit in the center of any dimension and you should be fine.
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David M. French

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#1658073 - 06/13/06 03:34 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
satterfi Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Ca
Quote:
Originally posted by David French:
Just don't sit in the center of any dimension and you should be fine.
That's an interesting statement. People recommend symmetry as a matter of routine for side to side positioning.

If you're going to sit off center from front to back, then why not sit off center from side to side?

Jon

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#1658074 - 06/13/06 06:23 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
It's a tradeoff. Actually, you can sit 6" or so off center left to right and not cause any severe issues - in fact, many times that's enough to get you out of the nulls.

Shifting your whole setup 6" one way won't kill you.

That's such a small change to symmetry in comparison to something like treating the front left corner floor to ceiling and NOT doing the front right because there's a door there - make sense?
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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#1658075 - 06/13/06 02:02 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
David French Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 88
Quote:
People recommend symmetry as a matter of routine for side to side positioning.
FOr mixing, yes, symmetry is impostant becuase of the whole left/right thing, but in tracking you don't have that, so why not get out of those big central nodes/antinodes?
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David M. French

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#1658076 - 06/13/06 02:49 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
SHould I consider putting spacers behind the mid/high absorbers on the parallel walls to make them absorb a little more bass??

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#1658077 - 06/13/06 05:16 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
David French Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 88
Definitely.
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David M. French

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#1658078 - 06/13/06 11:28 PM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
3Dfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 212
Loc: Ohio
About how far should the spacers keep the mid/high absorbers away from the wall? 1 inch? 2 inch?

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#1658079 - 06/14/06 06:51 AM Re: How to treat an 11 ft x 11 ft studio??
bpape Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1763
Loc: Wildwood, MO (St. Louis)
Generally, for mid/high absorbtion on the wall, you'll get the best bennie for space given up by using spacing equal to the thickness of the panel. If you have a 1" panel, space it 1" from the wall. 2" - 2" off the wall.

You can do more but you'll get diminishing returns. Note, this is for on-wall panels and mid/high only.
_________________________
I am serious and don't call me Shirley.

www.gikacoustics.com

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